BS: Mind-Body health connection

Subject: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:35 PM

I think this is a discussion worth having, if we can find a way. People who believe themselves to be ill are often told "it's all in your head" in a dismissive sort of way, just as people who struggle with being overweight are often dismissed as lacking in self-control and will-power.

The "it's all in your head" premise is a sort of fascinating one - the assumption is that you just *think* you're sick when you actually aren't - so either you're delusional (crazy) or you're faking it (which makes you a bad person.) But isn't there another possibility? Isn't it possible that 'mental'or 'spiritual' distress can manifest itself in genuine physical symptoms?

For instance, cancer - by some accounts, there have been people who overcame cancer after they divorced and removed themselves from *toxic* relationships. I'm referring to accounts I've read by Caroline Myss, and in Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom by Dr. Christianne Northrup.

I'm very much on the fence about all this, having grown up with a father who was constantly dosing himself with over the counter remedies, and a sister who's a hypochondriac - although she's in good company, along with Charles Darwin and Florence Nightingale, both hypochondriacs of the first degree. My sister early on discovered that being carsick got you moved up to the front seat - she never rode in the backseat again. I was also carsick occasionally, but the front seat was already occupied by my sister. Oh well. The same sister who suffered such horrible allergic reactions when around my dogs now has two dogs of her own, and a whole slew of "doggy friends" and is apparently able to participate in dogtraining classes without so much as the assistance of an antihistamine - how did that happen? The same sister is so incapacitated by the fear of flying that she can't even get on a plane - unless it's going to St. Kitt. I have listened for hour after expensive long-distance hour to countless stories of terrible suffering from her - chronic fatigue, incapacitating allergies, food intolerances, candida - you name it, she's suffered from it. She experiences apparently miraculous remissions, when it suits her, and devastating relapses, also when it suits her. On one hand, I'm fed up with it, on the other I know that she genuinely experiences the symptoms she has. The only way I ever know how my sister truly feels about anything is to take an inventory of her symptoms - if anything makes her unhappy on some level, she will probably come down with something in 12-24 hours, if not immediately.

I don't mean this to be a rant about my sister, or a suggestion that when you're sick you should go to a shrink instead of a doctor (decades of psychotherapy have done nothing for my sister.) Andrew Weil says you should listen to your body and what it's trying to tell you. Easier said than done, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM

Its well demonstrated that stress has an effect of weakening the immune system, so you are more likely to be ill when stressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

The process of thinking seems to be electro-chemical. If your physical system is 'outta kilt', how would you then expect to think well?

I know if I don't eat for four or five days at a stretch, my thinking gets fuzzy, memory gets lost and sense of time doesn't work all that well.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:49 PM

Brucie:

I suggest that stating that thought is electrochemical is analagous to asserting that communication is made out of Bakelite and copper. The wetware is a medium, but it is not the impulse that activates the medium.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:55 PM

Thinking doesn't happen without electrochemical activity. That is close enough for me. If you want the science, google electrochemical, thought, thinking. There's lots there.

The world is round, by which I mean like a ball, by which I mean like a spheroid. However, round works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:55 PM

stress has an effect of weakening the immune system, so you are more likely to be ill when stressed (08 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM )

Stress in general? No.

Short term stress improves the immune defense.
Chronic, long-term stress (and the coping mechanisms we use with long-term stress) worsen the immune defense.

Segerstrom & Miller, 2004. Psychological Stress and the Human Immune System: A Meta-Analytic Study of 30 Years of Inquiry, Psychological Bulletin, 130, 4.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:36 PM

Well that explains a lot about me then... and it ISN'T all in my head as my previous manager thought!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

Thanks for the info, Wolfgang. I found a link to the article at this site which in turn links to the complete article. It's rare for me to find such articles on the web - and when I find an article in a medical journal that I want to read, I have to resort to a bit of subterfuge to get access to it. (sneak into a medical school library and act like I know what I'm doing ;-)) On page 605 of this article it mentions MS and autoimmune diseases, an unbalanced immune system, and of course I'm interested in that. I'll have to spend more time with the reading, but it seems quite good at first glance.

Also, I noticed that Segestrom is at the University of Kentucky. Just a few years ago my son assisted another researcher there in an MS study. I'm on the "leading edge," 10 years now, of the population receiving the Betaseron drug, and as far as I know, there is very little understanding of why it works - pretty much a shotgun approach. But my internist is now questioning whether I'm beginning to experience a weakened immune system - only time will tell.

I'm not sure I understand your statement that "short term stress improves the immune system." (I'll read the article.) But there is anecdoctal evidence that MS attacks occur after a period of physical/psychological stress, which makes sense if we're talking about the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:32 PM

I can't overstate how glad I was that day to discover that my wrists were swollen after a couple of weeks trying to convince my doctor that I was exhausted and in pain.

Ten years before this episode, I had developed the facial welt typical of lupus. Although that is a story in itself, I got along OK with the aid of pills and creams and staying out of the sun. I had no systemic symptoms, although every time I went to a doctor from whatever cause they asked me if I had any joint pain. The answer was always No.

Then one day I woke up with the "flu". I was so exhausted I couldn't walk farther than 15 feet without resting - and this was in the house! My knees, my ankles, my wrists throbbed and ached. Three days later I finally went to my local doctor and they did blood tests. The tests showed nothing wrong, other than that my blood sedimentation rate was abnormally high.

They almost convinced me that it waw all in my head, that I was reacting to stress. What stress? Other than what my symptoms were causing?

Then one day I was in a dress shop and was going through some clothes, pushing them around on their hangers. Suddenly I realized that both wrists were swollen and hot to the touch.

I marched back to my doctor's office and thrust out my arms. This, I said dramatically, this is what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:55 PM

I had a similar experience in the early 1970s to do with migratory arthritis (which eventually they established that it was caused by rheumatic fever that I had when I wans in my early twenties. I could not walk--had to crawl to the washroom, and the pain was a new adventure in living. Trust me when I say I'd a paid for the bullet. I went to the hospital with the help of a friend, but because they didn't see any swelling at the joins, they wanted me to go home with the suggestion I take aspirin. Since I have five more days of good behaviour that I promised, I cannot tell you what I said to the doctor. I raised hell in the hospital, and eventually they found me a room at the Royal Vic in Montreal. It took the doc four days of tests to find the problem and a 45 minute session to locate the heart murmur. Eventually I was given about 3 million units of penicillin/day, IV, and I was released in another week or so.

Sometimes ya just don't take no for an answer. It has not recurred, but I am fortunate. I really feel for people who have 'problems' that are hard to pin down or expensive to treat. People who think it's a scam just ain't been on the other end of it. I hope they never are, but maybe along the way they'll pick up a little compassion for folks who ain't as lucky as they are.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: hesperis
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:13 PM

From the NAET website:
Q. "Then my symptoms are real? I'm not just imagining them?"         
A. No. You are not imagining them. Allergies in their mildest forms are merely nuisances. But for some people, accidental contact with an allergen can produce terrifying toxins in the body that result in clearly diagnosed illness just as though that person had taken a poison.

Diagnosis for either is not easy, but the milder the complaint, the harder it is for the patent to get good treatment. For instance, how do you treat a person for "feeling out of sorts, for a slight loss of memory, for a slight but persistent sore throat or cough, for a nagging, dull headache that does not respond to pain medications, for a persistent backache or a tingling feeling in the arms and hands that cannot be diagnosed by a neurologist?" Some of these unfortunate people have seen their physicians so many times that they cannot tell you how many times they have been ignored, diagnosed as suffering from a "nervous disorder" or been labeled a hypochondriac.

Of course, that's not actual hypochondria, that's undiagnosed allergies looking like hypochondria. Maybe hypochondria is an allergy on the psychological level that results in a real symptom from an emotional situation? After all, even emotions are electrochemical reactions in the body. Who knows? *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:01 PM

Oh, dear, brucie. Five more days of holding back! When the time is up, go outside and for an hour, fulminate to the sky. That will reduce the color of your words to practically a baby blue. ?:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:59 PM

Ebbie, I couldn't fulminate to the sky; well, not if fulminate means what I think it does. Is it a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:06 PM

brucie you need to connect (private mail) with katlaughing and all of her friends you share a lot in common and will have a very nice time exchanging they all are mudcat members.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:06 PM

Dear Gawd,

Lissen here, folks. You have been a-sold a bill of goods, convincing you that your ultimate nature is electrical wetware, like an old sea-sponge with a Duracell jammed into it. And it just ain't so. Who you are is so much more than that salty shock absorber that it bears no comparison. Thought is no more borne in the brain than a message is created by a telephone. You guys need to find your center and have a ciouple of good OOB experiences.

Thought is a spiritual, creative byproduct,. It gets jammed in among the chemicals and electrons of brains and other body parts because of long habituation and addicition. But you could be suckered into believing that our dominant species here on Earth is automobiles, and that you are what you drive, too. Same kinda thing. Why tangle yourself up harder into a mortal shell than you need to, consideruing that your actual nature is muchly unlimited and unending?

Well, that's my story, anyway, and Ah'm sticking to it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:16 PM

I had an OOB in the 1960s. Lasted four years. So, you saying the car I drive ain't alive? WOW. Like, how cool is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:17 PM

Thanks for the advice, GUEST. I'll take care of that if it'll make YOU happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM

Oh, yeah: That limp you have is caused by your lower back. Fourth or fifth vertebrata up from the tailbone. When you slipped the disk it didn't get fully back into place. You have muscles 'frozen' over the area and some nerves are pinched. Have that seen to. Do your disposition a world of good.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:29 PM

Amos

why don't you just shed your earthly body and become just a throbbing mass of energy and pure thought. You could connect this throbbing mass of pure energy and thought to your keyboard and just think your thoughts onto this forum and they would appear.

But I guess you would probably miss your greatest pleasure in life if this happened, which would be pinching a loaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:54 PM

"Thought is no more borne in the brain than a message is created by a telephone."
cute metaphor, Amos..*grin*, but it just don't scan. One is a truth...though a trivial one, the other is a only a claim...though a non-trivial one.

   We are "sold a bill of goods" on many topics these days, and it gets harder to pin down the flaws in the bill of sale as the language of the claims gets more...ummmmm...'creative'.

I may, or I may NOT be, "...electrical wetware, like an old sea-sponge with a Duracell jammed into it", but I am me no matter which way it is, and I am not diminished if I turn out to be just a half-watt of current with some convoluted pathways! They are nice pathways, and they are MY pathways, and if you have more interesting pathways, have a good time following them....I am in awe of the universe that is being discovered 'out there', but I have no evidence that I am more than a trivial speck in the scheme of things. I am, however, a BIG speck in my little corner...and that is sufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:35 AM

On the other hand, for many years I believed I was well, while all the time I was actually ill. Because my illness was of a nature that was unrecognised by medical science until fairly recently, for many years, I just thought I was just basically inadequate. Or at least, I knew I didn't feel good, and I knew I wasn't peforming up to the level of other people, but it never occurred to me that it was because I was ill. I had been told so many times that there was nothing wrong with me. But that never helped me to fell well, nor did it help me to function better.

So, how does one explain that?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:38 AM

In some hospitals, to counter some illnesses, dogs are used to assist sufferers to fight the diseases. Dogs can calm an agitated mind and inspire a sense of well-being, which promotes the ability to fight disease.

If mainstream medicine is using dogs as instruments of healing, I'd say it's pretty well established that there is a connnection between mind and body where health is concerned.

A logical extrapolation would be that an extremely tranquil, well-ordered and disciplined mind might be able to purge its body of maladies, or might be less likely to have maladies.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:39 AM

Ingo Swann wrote a first-rate SciFi book about a guy who perfected that talent during the Cold War, and ran circles around the SOviets and the Yanks using their computer systems. Never mind. Bill, the Youness of You is perfect and cannot be beat. When your current Meat ID card is converted to ashes and you're wondering what the fuck to do with yourself, I hope you will remember this conversation!!

MArtin, you are the only loaf around here worth pinching.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:19 AM

More like the only oaf around here worth linching!   (just kidding, MG ;-)

Amos, I thought you might enjoy this -- Metaphysical Models of Consciousness   A quote ....

Objectives: The reader will be able to compare three different models or paradigms that integrate the relationship among science, metaphysics and Spirituality and see their relevance to OT/MP.

I find Dr Hawkins' "Power vs Force" paradigm most intriguing! It does have health and healing applications. Dr Hawkins asserts that Unconditional Love (540 on his logarithmic scale of consciousness) is the level of healing and most self-help groups. In an energy field of 600 or more, he says almost anything will spontaneously heal.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:49 PM

(Note to brucie- yes, fulminating can be stress relieving and therefore therapeutic. Some people have a real talent for it. And that is a good thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

Amos

I am getting bored with this thread because it just seems like a bunch of self-serving hyperbole.

Did you all see that the Cubs signed Nomar again?

With him at shortstop, next season figures to be an exciting year on the North side of Chicago.

amos, do you pick lint out of your naval while coming up with these silly posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

remember, Amos...it ain't fair that if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so.."

if YOU are right, I'll gladly shake your hand ....ummmm...'merge my ethereal essence' with yours in a metaphysical act of cosmic contrition..*sly grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:42 PM

Bill D, may I watch? Awesome.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:15 PM

I will fulminate when you do. But in polite words. (Ebbie: fulminate had better be someting ya can do in public without being arrested.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:15 PM

Do people who fulminat wear long trenchcoats?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:45 PM

I'm with Martin - this thread has become pure drivel. Not least of which is the "pockmarked genius" who allegedly taught courses at McGill, and was at one time, if not currently, headmaster and schoolteacher in the Canadian school system, (which rivals that of Finland in maths and reading,) pretending not to know - or possibly not knowing - the meaning of fulminate. No access to dictionaries up in the cold frozen north, apparently.

Is it not possible to have a rational discussion about mind and body without it degenerating into mysticism and preciousness? Mind affecting matter is one thing, whatever the hell Amos is talking about is completely another.

I am truly discouraged. Let's just have another thread about bodily functions - I know - what brand and method of deodorant do y'all prefer? Spray or roll-on or solid?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:10 PM

Guest/SueB, what is stopping you from contributing to the mind-body connection discussion? If you do, I promise you that we will get back to it.

As for my "awesome" comment, I can't imagine anything more awesome than the merging of two spirits. Has not a lot to do with corporal functions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:59 PM

Wolfgang, when doing a review of the literature on stress, you come across the old problem of the definition of stress. Eg did the authors use tasks that they thought would be stressful, but may actually have been viewed positively by some participants?, or were the participants views taken into consideration? In some stress literature, the term "positive stress" is actually used when they have tied themselves in knots in discovering that some participants thrived on their "stressors".

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM

"mysticism and preciousness"    good one

Here's today's factlet, which fits the title, if not the intent:

"the more violent a culture, the higher the relative proportion of left-handers." New Scientist

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:07 PM

Thanks, SueB you and I are both right.

these types of threads serve no purpose.

they are for drug users who get "lilly high" and then go "gee man, far out, man."

I mean, this type of stuff is not about a high train of thought. It is actually quite sophomoric and amos is the king of the naval gazing, lint picking pseudo-intellectuals taking up bandwith and making Mudcat look like it's got an open connection to some good crack.

He must have the smelliest fingers on the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:25 PM

SueB:

My but you're an angry, uptight person. Not a very nice one either.

If it doesn't suit you, then it doesn't belong, is that it, Sue?

Get a life and lighten up a bit. And don't be so insulting, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM

So, SueB:

As I promised you in the message of a few moments ago--I am sorry for taking this thread off task. I realize it was not a good thing to do. I assume my serious contributions above are OK, so I won't apologize for them. Won't happen again in that I won't post to any thread that you start in future; nor will I post to this one again.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:45 PM

In re-reading your post of 2:45, SueB, I regret the reasonableness of my last post. Your post was not only angry but insulting and crass. Is that the kind of person you want to come across as?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:10 PM

Well, yes it was, rather, but what a great idea for a thread: an Honor Roll of people who have never been angry or insulting in mudcat BS.

I'll start:
1. Larry Otway.
2. Jerry Rasmussen.


Two. I got two.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:14 PM

SueB or not SueB that is the question....

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:03 PM

aww..Ebbie...if I manage to do those metaphysical gymnastics, you may watch, take notes, and have the Galactic distribution rights!

(brucie...'fulminating' is ok, even kibitzing...but I AM suspicious of 'gesticulating' in public!)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:43 PM

SueB,

Isn't it amazing how easily some get offended here?

Thanks for telling it like it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:51 PM

Coming from the greatest offender that is rich, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:41 PM

So just what exactly is the point of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:28 AM

It's a thread in search of direction, Carol. Grab the wheel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:55 AM

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:56 AM

( ...can't I have to go to bed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:02 AM

Well guess what. I gave Harold and the PC many months ago. I figured she may catch on it better than I. At first, she said she didn't like it. A few weeks ago, I noticed that she had been reading it frequently, without telling me or saying anything about it, which I thought was interesting. As we speak, she is writing a book report for presentation tomorrow. I'll let you know. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:04 AM

Looking forward to reading about it, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:41 AM

Harold brings his purple crayon with him everywhere. He can use it to solve problems. One day he drew a couple of things like a castle. He drew a lot of flowers (More than he could even count.) But the last one ended up being a fairy and Harold didn't have anything to wish for but he wanted to take a wish with him. He wished he would get a wish later and he did. Later he got a flying carpet. He didn't know how to land the carpet after he started flying.   But finally he did it with his purple crayon.

(Harold and the Fairy Tale -- I was wrong.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:32 AM

Well, Martin, it's pretty easy to get offended when you take yourself real seriously, as some here seem to do. It was fun, yanking on brucie's chain - hard not to do, what with his 'pledge' of not responding to negative content - especially since he doesn't seem to realize he didn't even last 24 hours, which Jeri gently pointed out. (Apparently her post was too subtle for him to get.)

Well, I've got to go now - must go sit in a corner and think about what kind of person I want to come across as.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:33 AM

Mudcat has degenerated into a cesspool of angry, puerile people intent on bullying and shouting down anyone who tries to have a decent discussion on any subject.

Anyone who has something to say on the original title of this thread would be a fool to post anything meaningful, unless of course they are masochistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:49 AM

Mercury's retrograde again, kat. Last time it was retrograde there were people threatening to leave right and left, but we're all still here. We *must* be masochists.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:38 AM

Sue is completely right in stating that it is possible to discuss the mind-body connection without deciding whether 'mind' exists independent of the physical brain or 'mind' is a convenient shortcut way to talk about brain firing patterns. So if people just could accept that others may have different things in mind when they say
'mind' but that it just does not matter (mind?) for this particular question (as Brucie had already said in other words in his 08 Dec 04 - 04:55 PM post) we could nevertheless have a discussion along the lines of Sue's first post, couldn't we?

Mary, short term stress brings the body (immune system) in a 'flight or fight' state in which we are able to function better than usually. In an extreme stress situation I usually do not get a cold and feel more strength. When the stress diminishes I am much more vulnerable. So a getting worse of a chronic state after a period of stress could make sense.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:01 AM

You will notice that as the mentality of the thread weakens, so the body of the thread also weakens.

As the mental stamina of the thread improves, so will the body regain its health.

It's almost mathematical isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:28 AM

Sue, if you're really interested in psychosomatic illness, there's some very basic information in this Wikipedia article. Asthma, allergies, even the Gulf War Syndrome are being investigated as "psychosomatic illnesses".

I was hoping to move beyond the basics into some intelligent discussion about Dr Hawkins (a Nobel Prize winner, no less!), his "Map of Consciousness" and it's applications for healing. But kat's right ... looks like the "seed" was sown in a dirty Catbox, going by the general tone (or "level of consciousness") of this thread. Oh well    ;-(

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: MaineDog
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:02 AM

I agree with kat. It is very dangerous to post here. Some of us have lives that go beyond internet infighting, and therefore we are not all good at it.
If shouting down everyone who doesn't meet one's standards of political correctness, or liberal political alignment, or atheism, or whatever, is the goal, then the whole idea of posting here is a waste of time.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,Georgette
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM

Very dictatorial and given to tantrums is Sue.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:41 AM

Maine Dog, some of us could give a rat's testicle about political correctness here.

I'm more interested in political incorrectness and a growing number here seem to be also. Some of us have had the radical left's political correctness so shoved up our butts that it's time to vomit it out.

watch out for that projectile.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:29 PM

Marvin: "...shoved up our butts that it's time to vomit it out."

You are abnormally connected, I think. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:09 PM

Thanks for the link, daylia, the Wikipedia article gave me something to think about, and raises more questions in my mind. If, for instance, someone has an allergic reaction which is psychosomatic, you would still respond to it with an antihistamine? It makes sense that you would, because physical symptoms are still physical symptoms no matter how or why they were triggered, and the antihistamine would address the physical symptoms. Obviously, you wouldn't sign them up for twice-weekly therapy, instead. But it seems like an inadequate response, to just treat the symptoms and not the *cause*. And it also seems as though there's the possibility that the antihistamine wouldn't necessarily work, if the 'mind' were to override it.

It seems like the 'psychosomatic' or 'hysterical' illness label still puts the blame on the sufferer. "You're doing it to yourself."
It puts the sufferer in the 'crazy/lazy' box, which helps no one. It seems like a dead end.

Myss and Northrup, who I mentioned before, seem to have a different take on this, but I don't know if I understand it any better. It seems to boil down to if you get sick it might be because you're unhappy, and you can help yourself to heal by removing the spiritual poisons from your life (I'm paraphrasing,) which, anecdotally at least, seems to involve divorcing your husband and/or telling your mother to go to hell. It's still all in your head, but not in a blaming or dismissive way - intended to be more empowering. And they don't rule out a medical approach, but seem to suggest that the medical approach alone might not be sufficient.

Little Hawk started a thread a while ago, My Simple Plan for Salvation where he said something about being yourself, which I think is about being *true* to yourself, which ties in here somehow.

About what Wolfgang and others were talking about, the relationship between stress and illness, and the difficulty of deciding what constitutes "good" stress as opposed to "bad" stress, I wish I had something to contribute. I know people who complain about being "stressed out" who nonetheless seems to thrive on it, but it still takes it's toll in the long run. Without the stress they might operate at a lower level, or a slower speed, so they need the pressure to be raised one way or another in order to perform at what to them is an acceptable level. I used this device in college, when I procrastinated about writing long papers until the pressure was almost unbearable - the force of that pressure could sometimes produce a twenty page paper overnight. I don't think it was healthy, but it sure made things "exciting".

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:13 PM

Daylia, I also meant to say, tell us more about Hawkin's Map of Consciousness, I'm not familiar with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

Ebbie, your into enemas aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

There is some really interewting material out there on this subject. From Gresham and Nichols comes a viewpoint I want to study more thoroughly.

"Your body's architecture is not random. Every site on or in the human physical structure is predisposed to resonate with specific other sites. These resonances extend to your emotional and mental makeup and your life purpose. Through movement, touch, and expanded perception you can access directly the body's map of consciousness.

Introduction

Ingrams
Inner/Outer/Inter-space
You Are Designed For Movement
Movement Teams and Planar Relationships
Posture
Barriers: Moving - and not
Floor work
Defining a Matrix: Your Rules Are Your Patterns
Shame and Deliverance
Integrated Awareness "

And here is another author who applies the Map of Consciousness to a specific purpose: The Uses of Smoking

"How come nicotine replacement therapy (nicotine patch and gum) only has a 7% success rate for quitting smoking? Why do people on nicotine replacement therapy still crave cigarettes? Clearly, there are reasons for smoking that go far beyond simple chemical addiction. This article, based on The Body's Map of Consciousness, explores the uses of smoking. It gives you some pointers for how you can go about quitting successfully.

"People use smoking to avoid feeling unpleasant emotions such as sadness, grief and anxiety. People use smoking to avoid feeling unpleasant emotions such as sadness, grief and anxiety. This is accomplished partly through the chemical effects of nicotine on the brain. (Many other articles discuss this, so I won't go into it here.) More important for this article is the interaction of smoking with the Body's Map of Consciousness.

And here is Dr. Hawkins: Dr. Hawkins

MAP OF CONSCIOUSNESS
   
"In Power vs Force, Dr. David Hawkins describes how he used kinesiology (muscle testing) to investigate consciousness. He determined that the human experience can be placed on a scale that he labeled from 1 to 1000. Different levels reflect radically unique viewpoints of the world.

"At the low end of the scale are qualities such as Guilt (30), Fear (100), and Anger (150). Humans experiencing life at these levels are trapped by life; they feel victimized by the effect of forces in the physical universe. All levels below 200 are described as "Force," and characterized by a weak kinesiologic response. Levels above 200 are described as "Power," and elicit a strong kinesiologic response.

"Higher on this scale are Courage (200), Willingness (310), Reason (400), and Love (500). Humans experiencing life at these levels feel that they are the source of their lives -- they create effects in the physical universe.

"At the highest end of this scale of human experience (600-1000) are qualities that transcend duality. Labels such as "enlightenment" cannot describe the bliss of these levels of consciousness. Dr. Hawkins reports that the great prophets of recorded human history (Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, etc.) all calibrate on this scale at 1000. Their original message of unity also calibrated near 1000.

"Dr. Hawkins provides valuable insight for spiritual seekers who wish to learn more about spiritual evolution. He also states that, on average, reading Power vs Force will increase a person's level of consciousness 35 points on the scale. To put this in perspective, most people increase only 5 points in an entire lifetime."

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:24 PM

I find stuff like the Gresham and Nichols very confusing. On the one hand, compelling, and appearing to make a great deal of sense. On the other hand, I balk at statements like "Every site on or in the human physical structure is predisposed to resonate with specific other sites," which is the assumption on which the whole structure appears to rest. I'm not sure what it actually means, scientifically speaking. I'm prepared to accept it as a metaphor, but as a "scientific or medical" principle? What proof exists for this statement? Can it be proven? Is it fact or speculation? Even if it's just a theory doesn't necessarily invalidate it, but some theories are good theories, some not so good. Since I have no way to evaluate the statement, I can't really get beyond it.

"Resonance" seems to be the latest thing. I have a neighbor who is an HR practitioner - Holographic Resonance. She takes her clients through various checklists and questionnaires, using mucle testing to obtain the answers, and prescribes various "treatments" based on the results. A treatment might be, for instance, repeatedly listening to a particular tuning fork (she has a whole set) or staring at a particular color. Whatever principle it might be based upon, the practice of it seems to me to resemble so much hocus-pocus, and I have a hard time getting beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:53 PM

I recommend a delightful perusal of some of Terrence McKenna's work.
As a Clinical Hypnotist I had plenty of opportunities to see mind body connections that most people would find incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:06 AM

On the subject of psychosomatic allergies, I have to say that it doesn't make much sense to me. Frequently, people with allergies feel the symptoms before they find out where in their immediate environment the allergens are located, or even the fact that there is an allergen present at all. For instance, it is not uncommon for me to have an allergic response to something I thought I could eat, and when I look a little more carefully at or enquire a bit more about the ingredients of what I've just eaten, that is when I discover that there is something in what I've eaten that I'm allergic to.

Thanks for the book report, heric. That's a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:41 AM

I'm responding to the original post, first.

Whether its the stress causing the illness, or the illness causing the stress is only something the patient knows for sure.

If its stress causing illness, a change in lifestyle is probably required. People who are impoverished are living in a state of chronic stress.

If its an illness that is creating the stress, try to find the cause and avoid it when possible.

I have worked closely with a group of 20 women for the last eight years. When someone is experiencing stress we know by their physical appearance. Marie's neck turns red. Sally's face breaks out. Trudy's face perspires. Donna gets a headache. Jenny's limp returns. Andrea takes short little steps. Etc. Of course stress and illness are related. Withing a week, the person exhibiting the symptoms of stress, usually becomes ill. Stress lowers your immune system.

Wolfgang is right. Short term stress can actually be good for your body. It is long term stress (often work related), that is the 'killer'.

Mary - I think you're on to something when you connect stress and MS. I definitely see a correlation. I wonder, however, how that would account for juvenile onset MS? Maybe its something like an exhaused gland or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:43 AM

Funny subject title.

There's a youth organization in town called the Mind/Body/Love Connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: hesperis
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:59 AM

Juvenile onset MS can probably be accounted for fairly easily by talking to any juvenile about their actual experiences of school and family. There is an INCREDIBLE pressure on young people to perform well at school. They don't even know what they want for their future yet, usually, but they know that if they fail they'll never have a chance to have a good one. The homework is getting ridiculously high, and playtime keeps disappearing into "win or lose" structured "play" organized by adults. Add the nutritional deficit of modern food into the equation...

Sometimes kids aren't allowed or able to be kids. It's no wonder they're stressed out.

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:13 PM

hesperis, if memory serves LH told me some time ago that acupuncture treatments had helped relieve your allergies a few years back. Could you tell us a bit about that?

Ebbie, thanks for posting the info about Dr Hawkins and about smoking too. You know just where my "buttons" are, don'tcha? ;-)

She takes her clients through various checklists and questionnaires, using mucle testing to obtain the answers, and prescribes various "treatments" based on the results. A treatment might be, for instance, repeatedly listening to a particular tuning fork (she has a whole set) or staring at a particular color. Whatever principle it might be based upon, the practice of it seems to me to resemble so much hocus-pocus, and I have a hard time getting beyond that.

Well, I don't blame you Sue. For one thing, "muscle testing" is only as reliable as the people doing the questioning AND the appropriateness / validity of the question. If the intentions of the tester/testee or the question itself are not integrous (ie aligned with love and truth for the greatest benefit of all), any "answers" gleaned will be conflicting and inaccurate.

Secondly, imo and personal experience, "color and tone" therapies like the one you described may be fun and even relaxing, but they have no lasting health benefits. These therapies are meant to stimulate, balance and align one's "chakras", and they can do just that - temporarily.

The chakras are really no more than a diagnostic tool for the endocrine system (for those trained to recognize/use them this way, that is). The condition of the chakras may indicate the symptoms of the problem, but the chakras themselves are not the cause of it. Treating the symptoms (ie "adjusting" the chakra through color/sound etc) may afford some temporary relief, but unless and until the underlying cause is uncovered and addressed, the problem remains and will inevitably recur.

"Chakra therapies" are like taking a hypertensive medication without also changing the emotionally repressed, angry patterns of thought/emotion/behavior that caused the high blood pressure in the first place. The medication may "work" in the moment, but until the person changes their approach to life the song WILL unfortunately remain the same.

It's interesting to note that while Dr Hawkins and applied kinesiology ("muscle testing") are inextricably linked, I've yet to find the good doctor prescribing (or even mentioning) "chakra therapy" in any of his books to date!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:36 PM

Sue, I just posted all that without knowing if the word "chakras" means anything to you! Just in case it doesn't, the concept of "chakras" is based on ancient Hindu understandings of the human energetic system. A healthy chakra is described as a whirling vortex which takes in and releases vital energy from the environment. Classically, each chakra is associated with a specific tone, color and physical gland or organ.

For a very basic diagram of the 7 major chakras, click here

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Body health connection
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:52 PM

Got this from the MS site"

"Cutting stress down to size

Are any of these thought patterns yours?

· You think "total failure" whenever you're short of absolute perfection.

Try instead: "I did a pretty good job—I'll do it better next time."

· You think you are responsible for everything: "I wonder what I did to make him feel like that?"

Try instead: "I am not the center of everyone's world."

· You think "should" about everything: "I should be treated fairly."

Try instead: "I'd like to be treated fairly, but ... "

· You think: "I probably won't be able to do that ... no use trying."

Try instead: "I think I'll give it a try and see how far I can go."

· You think one thing is every thing: "I messed that up, I'll mess up everything."

Try instead: "I am not very good at that, but I'm good at many other things."