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BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death

open mike 27 Dec 04 - 03:52 AM
Peace 27 Dec 04 - 05:00 AM
John MacKenzie 27 Dec 04 - 05:26 AM
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gnu 27 Dec 04 - 05:46 AM
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mg 02 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM
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Subject: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: open mike
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 03:52 AM

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1104&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041226%2F2344747924.htm&sc=1104
thousands are reported dead.
the waves in hawaii were huge last week, as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:00 AM

Report I read said the toll was so far about 8,000.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:26 AM

They're talking 12000 now. I just couldn't believe it when I heard the news on the radio yesterday AM, it has an unreal quality like a disaster movie. Then you see all the newsreel film, and you realise it's true, and the magnitude is just staggering. When I looked at an Australian site it gave the dates of big quakes, and the scary thing is this is the 3rd big one to occur on the date of December 26th. All those poor people, so many of them have enough troubles already, I'm going to find a disaster relief fund site, and send them a cheque.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:40 AM

Red Cross was saying to send money, not goods, as it's easier for them. Our prayers to the victims!

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:46 AM

CNN now reporting 20,000.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:53 AM

Some dead are even reported from the east coast of Africa. At least that should speed up the construction of a warning system in the Indian Ocean similar to the one being in effect in the Pacific.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:08 AM

Red Cross prefers cash because:
<> It will already be making payments from reserves,
<> The reserves need to be buttressed fro the next disaster,
<> They try to purchase goods and services as close to the affected area as possible,
<> It aids the local economy along with the individuals who receive the goods and services,
<> It minimizes transport costs.

It hit me yesterday that this is a Global Disaster, like some of the wars came to be known as "World Wars." Not just from the scale, but the number of countries affected directly.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Also it said on the news that the quake had affected the earth's rotation. And here we all had been worrying a meteor would get us-- and that a meteor would at least give us plenty of warning to get our affairs in order. Surprise!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:15 AM

Tidal wave toll tops 20,000 in southern Asia
Millions homeless as international aid arrives

The Associated Press
Updated: 6:30 a.m. ET Dec. 27, 2004
COLOMBO, Sri Lanka

Rescuers scoured Asia's coastlines for survivors of devastating tidal waves that obliterated seaside towns in nine countries, killing more than 20,900 people. Aid poured into the region, but morgues and hospitals struggled to cope with the tragedy.

Hundreds of children were buried in mass graves in India as grieving parents looked on.

The death toll began climbing sharply after Sunday morning's 9.0-magnitude quake that struck deep beneath the Indian Ocean off the coast of Indonesia, the most powerful temblor in four decades.

The waves sped away from the epicenter at over 500 mph before crashing into the region's shorelines without warning, sweeping people and fishing villages out to sea. Millions were displaced from their homes and thousands were missing.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:34 AM

General and specific info is available on tsunamis at the following site: Google

Tsunami!: The WWW Tsunami Information Resource


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:37 AM

Co-seismic Excitation of Earth Rotational and Gravitational Changes At a Glance

A seismic event, apart from the "shaking" that is the earthquake, leaves behind permanent, step-function-like dislocations in the Earth. This redistribution of mass changes the Earth's inertia tensor; and the Earth's rotation will change according to the conservation of angular momentum. Such is the co-seismic excitation of Earth rotation changes. Similarly this mass redistribution causes the Earth's gravitational field to undergo slight changes expressible in terms of changes in its harmonic Stokes coefficients. The question is whether such excitations are large enough to be of any significance or consequence. The answer is mixed, as highlighted below...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:40 AM

To add to Wolfgang's post:

"In 1964, a large earthquake in Alaska triggered a tsunami that caused damage all the way to California, including several million dollars damage in Port Alberni here in British Columbia. Because the warning system worked, an evacuation was possible and there was no loss of life."


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:35 AM

Does anybody know if anybody is checking to see if the orang-utans are now extinct? Don't they live only in Sumatra and Borneo?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:46 AM

yes...they live in the wild only in that part of the world, but the tsunami damage was largely a shoreline incident. Any primate, including orangs and their human cousins living more than a mile inland will have survived.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:24 AM

..."The question is whether such excitations are large enough to be of any significance or consequence." Too bad I didn't stock up on smokes and booze before the blizzard hit and shut the city down. If we're all going to die, well, I'd just as soon have fun shovelling. Come to think of it, no sense in shovelling... there's no where to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

A picture of the birth of a tsunami
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/zania3.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:10 AM

I heard on the earlier versions of the news that the scientists here had one and a half hours notice and if the people had 15 minutes warning they could have gone to higher ground and many would have been saved. They honest to God, and I heard this half asleep but I swear I heard it, that they didn't have names in their rolodexes to call. That has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard in my life. Call the UN. Call the embassies. Put it on the radio and the internet and people could have called people over there. And surely they could have called the weather people in the various countries, the geology departments in the universities etc. I have not heard that particular news bit in recent hours so I bet they are suppressing it. I subscribe to a tsunami warning system at work and get the big quakes even if it doesn't threaten us here (and I am living on a sand spit two blocks from the ocean).

It makes me sad to think of the tragedy and outraged to think of how stupid some people in our government payroll (presumably) can be...what were they thinking? mg

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM

I saw a TV program a while back concerning a prediction that part of the Canary Islands is going to fall into the sea resulting in a massive tsunami devasting the whole of the USA Eastern seaboard. Is there an early warning system in place for such an eventuality?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:01 AM

Exactly one year on from a massive earthquake that destroyed the city of Bam in Iran, and killed 30,000 people. Massive amounts of aid were promised by governments round the world. Hardly any of it actually was provided. (£1 billion promised, £17 million paid over.

Maybe the fact that some of the places hit this time are places Western tourists go to might make it more likely the promised help will be supplied. Maybe.

Tsunami kills hundreds of tourists - Reuters - 50 minutes ago
Anxious families across the world are seeking news of loved ones after a tsunami crashed into beaches and bars in some of Asia's most popular tourist resorts, killing more than 20,000 people and stranding many more.


Ten of thousands dead, and what's the headline? "Hundred of tourists"


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

I figured it would only be a matter of time before someone like Mary Garvey blamed our government.

If you want people to be warned who live in a third world country, you first have to get them into at least the middle of the 20th century. Unfortunately this is not the case.

Undoubtably, the U.S. will once again be the leader in relief programs for these types of Acts of God. I will be sure to donate to the cause instead of trying to point a finger at someone.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:20 AM

Well McGrath I think it was the Dundee Courier that ran the 1912 headline, 'Liner lost at sea, local man feared drowned', or words to that effect.Events like this bring out the best and the worst in headline writers.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:47 AM

about the Canary Islands situation : Yeah...it just might happen someday...next week, or in a few thousand years...if the local volcano erupts hard enough. Might be anywhere from a few days warning to 2 hrs warning...*IF* it goes beyond just an eruption. Can you imagine the traffic jams if the warning is sounded? And can you imagine the repercussions if the island doesn't collapse?

The Discovery channel has a whole stock of Armageddon documentries about everything from asteroids to earthquakes...including one running now which includes them all, along with references to Biblical predictions and past disasters. If you like knowing everything that 'might' get you, go on and watch.


Entropy Will Get You, If You Don't Watch Out



In fact, Entropy Will Get You, If You DO Watch Out


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:09 PM

Nearly 40 years ago I was standing on the western shore of Lake Cayuga NY. I watched the shore line recede 60 feet away from me.
Many years later I pieced together that at that moment there had been an earthquake in China that killed countless thousands.

BY THE WAY ...Right after the Sumatra earthquake, Yosemite Park had an earthquake of 3.4


I wonder how Arthur C Clark is doing since he lives in Sri Lanka.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:16 PM

I did not blame the government. I blame the idiot persons who did not at least make a few phone calls. And it does not take a whole lot of technology to tell people a big wave is coming and run to higher ground, which apparently was nearby in at least some cases. And to get out of the ocean. How about radio? Do you think none of those countries have radios? Bullhorns? Sirens of some sort? Cell phones? Loud voices? OK, perhaps the "natives" are too technologically underserved to get out of the ocean but there were tourists who probably had their waterproof blackberries with them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM

You are trying to blame somebody/anybody for the unfortunate situation. And yes, I don't believe there is much of any kind of infrastructure in place there that would have made much difference. what you would have had is just wide spread panic.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:28 PM

Don, is it possible you mean thirty years ago? Just askin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Yes, you would have had panic and traffic jams and people getting trampled. It might have resulted in more deaths but I doubt it. And at least we could say we tried. Some would have made it to higher ground; some might have had time to assemble ropes or collect water and food or blow up an inflatable boat. guess we'll never know. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:47 PM

I don't know why these types of disasters seem to happen in third world countries, but they just seem to.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 12:53 PM

In most cases the geology was inplace before the people. So you could equally ask why do third world countries happen in 'these places'?
Life and death are often unfair. Thoughts to all who are suffering there.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

" third world countries,.."

umm...like Oregon?..(Mt. St. Helens)..California?..(several earthquakes a year) Missouri (largest earthquake in U.S. history, New Madrid)...Alaska? (2nd largest earthquake in this century...with tsunami)....and are Chile & Peru 3rd world? And I doubt Japan would like to be called 3rd world any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 01:10 PM

23000 now with 30000 missing in the Andaman Islands alone. The figures are unbelievable, and I think it may turn out to be the biggest disaster ever, casualty wise.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Headline (film at 11):

"Musicians Adopt Internal Strife Strategy to Resolve World's Problems"

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: open mike
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

http://www.usgs.gov/
this site has loads of info on geological stuff
earthquakes, etc.
i remember hearing a report on NPR that surfing
enthusiatsa have bee swarming to hawaii to a
memorial sirfiong contest--in memory of a
rescuer who died trying to save some folks
years back...that the waves were like high
rise bldgs coming at you...wonder if there is
an relation to the tsunami?

in 1998, i experienced on of the mose incredible
days of my life. I was on a clipper ship off the
coast of Guadeloupe--there to watch the total solar
eclipse. There is the Caribbean, in the path of
totality was also the volcano on MontSerrat, which
was erupting at the time, which caused seismic
reaction which resulted in massive waves . this
cause whales and porpoises to leap from the water..
what a multi media show....!! plus the total eclipse
was in progress, to add to the mix!


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

brucie, while there was no loss of life in BC, people did die in Oregon and California as a result of the 1964 Tsunami, a number of whom, although warned, went down to the sea side to watch, if I recall correctly. Of course that was before Hollywood started making movies about such disasters.

Setting up a Tsunami monitoring system for the Indian Ocean is a very expensive undertaking, which would require the economic cooperation of a lot of extremely impoverished nations. However, true to human nature, it probably will be undertaken, now that the damage has been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

I believe that the death count from the 1964 Alaska earthquake and tsunami was over a hundred. Not to be compared with this tragedy but it still affected a lot of people.

I was in an Oregon restaurant that night and we all felt anxiety and sorrow for a visiting Alaskan who was glued to the television straining to hear what had happened to his home and family.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:15 PM

It is easy to make fun of headlines like the "few hundred tourists" If however you were waiting for news of a loved one in one of those places the headline was like a hammer blow.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: jaze
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:21 PM

Just what effect did it have on the earth's rotation?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

Who cares what effect it had on the earths rotation? Let's just either pray or offer best wishes to those who are grieving and mourning the loss of loved ones in the tragedy.

Lord, I lift all those who have suffered in this tragedy to you and ask (as you said ASK) that you bring comfort to all those who have suffered in this tragedy. To the families of those who have perished and all their friends and relations. Help them to come to terms with it all and come to a greater understanding of the forces of good and evil.
I ask this in Jesus name. Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM

Amen, brother.

I was in Edmonton when the tornados hit. I was in university at the time (1984?) and I went to the Red Cross building to see if I could help: give blood (O neg) or search for people or whatever. They figured that because I was studying education that I'd know something about organization, so they told me to organize their office which had about twenty phones in it.

We received hundreds and hundreds of calls from all over the world. People asking after loved ones and relatives. A lady from England called and wanted to know if her daughter in Toronto would be safe. I assured her she would be. Toronto is over 1500 miles from Edmonton. On a map it seems like the next town over. It had been reported by various news agencies around the world that Edmonton was a disaster--you'd a thought we'd been hit by 10 megaton nuke. But regardless, people were worried and we did what we could to take names and see if we could pass messages along or get people connected. I do not recall how many people died because of the tornados, but it was very few. I know it wasn't few to those who lost family or friends. A disaster of this magnitude--the tsunami--is incomprehensible to most people. It will be weeks before aid gets to where it's needed. That won't be for want of trying. It's just the nature of disasters.

The death toll will continue to rise, and the heartache will continue to increase. People who have been devastated will go into shock at destruction that has been wrought in their usually-secure world, and the efforts of humankind will do its best to save lives, feed and house people, give the comfort we can. That;s part of the responsibility we have as citizens of this planet.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 03:31 PM

Mary, what you complain to have been missed has actually been done. The USA had the information about a possible tsunami early and did inform the US embassies in several countries hit later. The embassies did try to phone local services responsible for giving warnings. But due to the holiday season, to the (locally) very early time of the day and to the inefficiency of the local institutions no warnings reached the people that could have profited from hearing them.

The blame here rests with the local authorities and with nobody else.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 03:53 PM

It is incompetence on all sides then. Are there no ham operators? Could they not have gotten in touch with Fox news or someone and said get hold of your people there? Put the word out? They should have flooded the airwaves and the internet. If we can't get hold of people, for example, in major tourist attractions, with all night hotels, etc.....we sure as hell had better figure out how to. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 03:59 PM

It's your fault Mary Garvey. I blame you for not yelling the news over to them.

Oregon? Mt. St. Helen compared to this Bill D.?

Allow me to show you that this is an apple and this is an orange and that there is quite a bit of difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: open mike
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM

where to go to offer assistance
(if you are not poart of the solution,
you are part of the problem)
Red Cross
when yuo go to the red cross site, you can find a video
of musicians doing a benefit for red cross...
that is something many of us could do...
what a good way to celebrate new years or first night...
i issue a challenge....how many such events can we mudcats
organize??!!
UNICEF


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: open mike
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:46 PM

try again for U.N.I.C.E.F.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:57 PM

The Revenge of Gaia.

Tasmania had a level 8.8 or near abouts quake within last week near Macquarie Island - fortunately not many live there. Also North West coast of Aust got the Tsunami but very few live there so no damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:02 PM

In Pacific countries, I gather from the press coverage, there is in place already a tsunami warning system, because of previous experience. This earthquake happened in the Indian Ocean, where there hasn't been anywhere like so much seismic activity in recent decades as round the Pacific rim.

If there was a similar major disaster like this in Western Europe or the United States, the same would apply, noone is expecting it (apart perhaps from the US West Coast) and noone is ready for it. There appears to have been a failure to have contingency plans in place from the Canary Isles disaster in waiting mentioned earlier. Perhaps this may change as a consequence of this tragedy.
.......................
About that insensitive headline I quoted - I can understand that people with tourist relatives in the area must have been very worried, but there are probably far larger number of people from immigrant backgrounds who have relatives who are resident in those countries, who must have been equally worried.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:31 PM

"I figured it would only be a matter of time before someone like Mary Garvey blamed our government."

I figured it would only be a matter of time before Martin Gibson blamed the victims for not having sense enough to be American.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:55 PM

before a catastrophe hits your shores, check out coconut fluid as a replacement for blood plasma...they have used it in some armies like Indonesia I think....it is supposedly quite similar in composition and can be used for transfusions, should the need arise and coconuts be available (which they probably are in some of these areas affected by the tsunami). mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 07:17 PM

Even with a fully functioning warning system to detect quaked and the resulting tsunami would there be enough time to evacuate people?

The Maldives and the Andamen Islands are isolated so getting people off on ships and getting those ships well away from the coastline would be difficult.

With regards densley populated regions like Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka just how many could be evacuated? Roads would become clogged ad nothing would move.

Yes a few more lives might be saved but the loss of life would still be unbearably high. We live a fragile existance on a fragile planet and nature is always ready to remind us of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:01 PM

Some people somewhere were able to run to higher ground. You take your chances getting into a car. Trust me, I live on a tsunami road and doubt I would make it out. But some would...I think near seacoasts we need to build some sturdy stone buildings, and high enough that they provide some protection..of course then they act as damns etc...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:15 PM

Even with warning, the sheer improbability of what people along those shorelines were seeing kept them riveted to the spot when they could have been fleeing. Got an email from a friend visiting in Thailand who was eating a late breakfast overlooking the beach on a beautiful sunny day. The first wave emptied (!) the bay as it took form, then as in slow motion headed for the beach. Everyone sat mesmerized before this rare and beautiful event. There was no sense of fear, only awe and amazement. The 2nd wave was much larger than the first, came in much farther, crashing right into the restaurant, taking with it chairs and tables. Slowly it began to dawn on people that they were in danger and most began moving away from the shoreline. The 3rd wave came across the street and right into the hotels and bungalows. By then trucks were arriving to take people to the hills.

Gives the word "awesome" it's full meaning. Original archaic usage indicated dreadful, terrifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:45 PM

An acquaintance of mine in Juneau was in Kodiak Island during the 1964 Alaska earthquake with its subsequent tsunami. She said the wave came in six different times. She said the people had retreated to the hills above the shore and were able to see it all.

I read once that the reason you can't outrun a tsnunami is that the wave can be traveling 150 milers per hour. Even then, with a proper system in place there can be quite a bit of warning.

Years ago I lived on the Oregon coast. Whenever there was a seismic event that could have caused a tsunami the police traveled slowly through the neighborhoods with a peculiar sounding siren, which told us to head for higher ground.

Here in Juneau Alaska, with the ocean right at our doorstep we really have only one place to run, and that is up the mountains behind us. Our land mass is severely limited. On the other hand, the hundreds of small islands out there break up normal ocean waves so that we get no wave action at all. A tsunami might bring a upswelling of water but no wave as such. In 1964, several boats tied up at the docks overturned with the swelling but there was no damage otherwise. Very different from 600 air miles away.

Some funny stories came out of that quake. One young couple in Anchorage found themselves flung to the ground outside their cabin, where they rode the earth, sometimes looking up at their cabin, sometimes down on it as the earth shrieked and roared with tremendous noise. The woman started praying out loud. Her husband yelled into her ear: "Louder! Louder!"


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:41 PM

ebbie...I kinow the mountains you mean...I 1975 I climbed up the trail behind the town. I still have slides of the town from way up high.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:54 PM

By the way, I mistyped - that should be 500 miles per hour that a tsunami can travel, not 150. I went back to fix it and somehow typed in the other number.

NBC just said on the news that the Atlantic Coast has no tsunami warning system. Brrrrrrr. These third world countries, you know.

Bill D, one of these times I hope you and Ferrara come here again. We would love to show you off to everybody. Incidentally I know just what overlook you took your photos from! There is now a tramway that runs up to the timber line. In the summertime, of course. Tourists, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:16 PM

Mary, it sounds as if you live near Crab Harbor. That's awesome. WELL worth the risks!   I live on a sand spit, too, down south. I'll have to check in to those warning things (or get a television or radio perhaps -- nah.)


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:17 PM

Ease up on Mary Garvey. She is asking a perfectly reasonable question. It would, in fact, have been possible. F__k political leanings and previous thread disputes - it is theoretically possible that people could have been given better warning. Can we please admit that so that next ime it will be better?

And, for the record, no one has (or could) say that the USA is to blame. Nature's power makes the USA look puny in the extreme. This is a global, HUMAN catastrophe. Let's all be good humans in our response.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 12:29 AM

This is a natural event of devastating magnitude. I listened to this story on NPR tonight. I could imagine the gentle rolling of the waves out in the ocean and the five hundred mile an hour surge over the shallow coastlines. What a tragedy! The earth almost seems to be fighting humanity back....The ice shelves are calving at a rapid rate and the world is warming fast. The weather is much more violent it seems to me.....


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 12:50 AM

brucie
I believe the year was 1968.

Harpgirl, the 500mph speed is in the deep ocean. At shore it is no more than 50mph. The video I have seen from atop a 20 story hotel showing the 30 foot wave rush ashore over samller buildings a mere 100 yards was amazing.

...........................................

Now imagine a 5 km asteroid hitting the mid Atlantic.

The resulting wave would be about one mile tall in many shoreline locations.

My friends, that is the differnece between a catastrophe and a catacysm.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 01:14 AM

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/WA-feels-the-tsunamis-ripples/2004/12/28/1103996534617.html

WA feels the tsunami's ripples
December 28, 2004 - 1:24PM

Unusual tidal surges and strong currents hitting the coastline of
Western Australia, caused by the devastating Indian Ocean tsunami, are set to continue for at least 24 hours, forecasters have warned.

Meteorologists said they did not know exactly how long the local effects of the undersea earthquake would last, but they were expecting the surges to last at least throughout today.

Perth Bureau of Meteorology duty forecaster Grant Elliott said the
bizarre consequences of the world's worst earthquake in 40 years were
hard to predict.

"We do expect the effects to continue, and we have had anecdotal
evidence of tides up to a metre higher than normal," Mr Elliott said.

"But because this is beyond our experience we don't know what ripples
might remain in the basin, so we just don't know who, what, where or why really."

The first waves arrived on the west coast on Sunday afternoon and
continued into yesterday.

Tidal surges were reported from Geraldton, 425 km north of Perth - where several boats in the port lost their moorings - to Busselton, 232 km south of Perth.

The southern half of the state felt the greatest effects, despite being further away from the epicentre of the quake, because it was more directly in line with it.

Two people had to be rescued after strong tidal surges swept them out to sea in Busselton, where surges of one metre every 30 to 60 minutes were reported.

AAP


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:51 AM

39,000 lives now reported lost ...

Oxfam is one of the agencies already in many of the countries affected

Click here to donate: Oxfam South Asia Tsunami disaster

Others (Google?) are:
CAFOD - Catholic Aid agency
Christian Aid
Save the Children


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:56 AM

In the past 10 minutes, the death toll has risen to over 40,000


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:47 AM

In 45 minutes the death toll has climbed to 45,000 ..

In UK, Sky is providing comprehensive news coverage .. ditto BBC
What coverage is this receiving in the USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:04 AM

Just over an hour since first posting .. death toll now over 55,000


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM

I just heard the quake has created a buldge in the plates between Asia and Australia which could create more intense and stronger quakes to come.
All of this isn't new though. It's been happening in the history of the life of our world.
It is a trip that those islands moved, but that too has happened throughout history.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 04:08 PM

Has anyone noticed the curious death toll reported from Burma (now Myanmar?)? Closer to the epicenter than Thailand with a longer exposed coastline it only reports 34 casualties. A military regime governs there. It reminds me of the death toll reports from behind the Iron Curtain before 1989. Somehow countries with no free press always seem to be exempt from natural and human made catastrophes.

The number of German deaths by the tsunami will be in the hundreds.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 04:21 PM

I see this as yet more proof that there is no God - the neat little arguments reconciling perfect good with the existence of evil trail off into silence when one sees the piles of bodies, the screams of the bereaved, the desperate relatives searching.. the day after Christmas. I know from my travels that there are no people less deserving of such suffering than the gentle, kind fishers of Tamil Nadu, and I am sure that the victims in other countrie were just as 'good'.

All one can hope for is that 2005 will be better than stinking 2004 which has to be just about the most apalling year for the suffering of innocent people that I can remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr-at-work
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 04:23 PM

Georgiansilver, if you had any idea how insulting praying for these Hindus, animists and Moslems "in Jesus' name" is, you might rethink your incredible provinciality.
Then again, the several thousand Swedish tourists might appreciate it.
Wonder how many other northern countries sent boatloads of tourists there.... poor people...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 04:59 PM

Some understandable censorship by German radio stations: A present hit titled (in translation) 'The perfect wave' is not been played anymore.

Wolfgang


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Subject: 60,000+ Tsunami deaths
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 05:24 PM

I also noticed (early yesterday) that between the Sky news bulletins the commercial for P&O cruises slogan: "It's a world out there" panning away to show ship in middle of ocean) seems to have been pulled.

Death toll approaching 60,000 ... terrible scenes on TV .. and so many children seem to have been victims because they couldn't run away fast enough, nor strong enough to survive in the torrential waters .. at one resort apparently, when the sea receded (a classic indication of an approaching tsunami) many children went down onto the beach to pick up the exposed shells.

It's been confirmed that Richard Attenborough's 14 year old granddaughter is among the British casualties - her mother is still missing.

It's the virtually the only news story here in UK..Again, what coverage is there on this disaster on US media?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: nutty
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 05:51 PM

There is excellent coverage on the BBC SITE

HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 05:52 PM

I share Wolfgang's scepticism about the low casualty figures for Burma - but he's wrong about the Burmese coastline being further from the epicentre than Thailand's western coast is, as the map on this page shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM

Odd isn't, how provincial our reactions truly are. I have a friend who is in India over her winter break for her first time outside the US. It is mind blowing to me to think what she must be going through as her first time as a foreigner in India under the circumstances.

She is in Bombay, so I'm not worried about her. But it will be fascinating to hear her stories of all this when she returns.

Crazy ole world. Why don't people understand the huge numbers of casualties has nothing to do with the third world thing, but with the fact that these were heavily populated coastal tourist areas at the height of the season, with the waves hitting at a time when many people, children and fishermen and tourist industry workers especially, were just beginning their day? If a 9.0 earthquake hit just off the southern California/Mexican coast during the height of the tourist season, with tsunamis equivalent to this one, the number of deaths would be incredibly high--likely in the tens of thousands too. The reason why the Alaska earthquake doesn't compare isn't because of the ferocity of the quake, but because of the thin population in the area, which is true of most earthquakes and tsunami.

I do hope this disaster results in an early warning system for the area. It is true that in certain areas, like the Banda Aceh area of Sumatra, or the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, that there never would have been much time for warning, as it all happened so fast, and there was no place for most of the victims to go. I read that on one of the islands, when authorities finally arrived they found only a third of the island's population had survived. That is just an unimaginable scale of death.

I was online early on the 26th, as the story came in, and I watched and read in horror as the stories come in from the gitgo, while the death toll rise by the thousands each hour. Now there is talk of 60,000, and a likely doubling of that number due to water borne diseases, lack of water, food, medical supplies, and shelter and shade (lest we forget, these are tropical regions, but due to development, very little natural shade from the sun.

But I note that the German chancellor and his party were promptly airlifted out.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:18 PM

Thanks for the correction, McGrath, you're right.

28 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM, "the German chancellor" has interrupted his vacation (at a completely different part of the world) if that is what you meant. But perhaps you meant to write "a former German chancellor" instead of "the German chancellor"?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:22 PM

Mary Garvey's reaction is similar to my initial reaction. I didn't cotton on too quickly to the facts that there had never been an occurrence in the Indian Ocean even close to this tragedy. And I was listening to NPR tonight where one of the Americans who monitored the earthquake (from a continent away) made it clear that:

1) Initial readings led them to think the magnitude was one tenth what it was.

2) Not every earthquake spawns a tsunami, that occurs when the displacement in the earth is apbruptly vertical.

When the early damage reports came in, they did the best they could to make calls to local authorities. Unfortunately there was no emergency system in place to deal with this, and also unfortunately, it was the weekend.

The conclusion is that without an actual tsunami warning system, the information they had left them with no time to warn the early victims, and no system to distribute an effective warning to the later victims.

Unfortunately, this will not bring any cheer to the millions of people whose lives have been turned upside down by deep personal and financial loss.

3) The last earthquake that was comparable in size (slightly larger) was the Good Friday quake in Alaska in 1964. It spawned a local tsunami that wiped out at least one Alaskan village. However, the population at the time was pretty sparse. Even Anchorage at the time was more of a 'town' than a city. The next time this occurs there will billions and billions in property loss, but the people are so distributed that I doubt there will be a large loss of life. About two years ago there was a magnitude 8 quake in uninhabited land but right near the Trans Alaska Pipeline. No loss of life, some loss of road, no leakage of oil.

Wolfgang, I was intrigued by the German song "The Perfect Wave". What is the title in German?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

I stand corrected as to my German chancellor error, as if it matters. The point is still the same. Their privleged status got them out, which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth in these sorts of circumstances.

Just think how much good he could have done had he stayed, and flown in US TV camera crews instead, and begged the west for massive amounts of aid on live television.

Instead, he and his party fled the scene, and now we get to hear the right wing echo chamber bitch about the UN calling all our rich nations' response to this disaster stingy.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM

yes...the German army seems to have sent a helicopter in to get Helmut Kohl and several in his party. I have no idea how relevant this is to the situation...perhaps the helicopter returned to do other work...*shrug*

We are just beginning to get reports from some of the more remote areas affected, and I'm sure the statistics will rise as evaluations are made.

and Nemesis...there is 'almost' constant coverage here in the US thru CNN, MSNBC, FOX News and others....we may get a break for other news, but the disaster leads most broadcasts...(along with news of the 'upgrading' of the US commitment of money and resources as cricicisms are made. Bianca Jagger was on "Crossfire", claiming that the US didn't 'give' in relation to its resources, even though we do give more than anyone else...You can't win)


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:37 PM

blame and accusations.

blame and accusations.

blame and accusations.

Think about what you can do to help. Contact your church or synagogue.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:55 PM

Two responses to this are appropriate. One is getting in help as a matter of top priority. This is a far far greater disaster than September 11th was, and requires an appropriate level of response.

The second, longer term, response should be a new recognition of the way in which we are all of us on this planet potentially vulnerable to disasters of one sort or another, and that adequate contingency plans for reacting rapidly and adequately need to be in place. That means mechanisms for transmitting and receiving warnings, and for marshalling aid and help. And it has to be coordinated internationally.

September 11th was seen as a wake-up call. This is another wake-up call, on a far greater scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:24 PM

Bill D, thanks for that info ...

BTW what happened to the "international rapid reaction force "that there was talk about setting up?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:50 PM

Think about what Helmut Kohl and an American television news crew could have done to help.

Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. He seems to have been the only world figure in the region where the disaster occurred, and he bolted as soon as he got the chance. That is despicable, considering the attention he could have gotten doing live broadcasts pleading for aid to the region. He could have shamed at least some in the wealthy nations into doing the right thing. He could have just done something for the other foreign tourists in the region. He could have done a lot of things, but instead chose to flee.

No reason why we shouldn't mention the despicable, especially when they so obviously are deserving of our scorn.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:58 PM

I found this story quite interesting, from the Chicago Tribune:

Aftermath of the earthquake: Shorter days


Published December 28, 2004


Incredibly, the magnitude 9.0 earthquake that struck off Sumatra on Sunday morning caused a vertical displacement of so much material that the rotation period of the Earth has been permanently altered. By a tiny but measurable amount, the Earth is now rotating more quickly on its axis, and the 24-hour day is now one ten-thousandth second shorter.That's the result of calculations based on preliminary data made by Oak Park astronomer Dr. Leslie M. Golden. It's analogous to the increase in rotational speed that a twirling ice skater experiences when he or she draws in their arms. It is estimated that during the Sumatran quake, a block of material roughly 600 miles in length and 100 miles in width fell 30 feet closer to the Earth's axis of rotation. The planet has responded by rotating more rapidly, albeit ever so slightly, and our 24-hour days are now one ten-thousandth second shorter.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:02 PM

The last Tsunami of any size in the Indian Ocean was (I Believe) in
1836 . It is hardly surprising that there was NO Tsunami early warning
system in place in the Indian Ocean as the last people who actually
experienced this died the best part of a hundred years ago .
An interesting side effect of this catastrophe is that there is wide
coverage on the American Media . A Terrible way to give so many Americans a Geography Lesson !


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM

Yes and no. India and Thailand both have plenty of money to install this sort of technology, for starters. It's a question of priorities.

To put this in perspective though, one need only look at some of the earthquake casualty statistics from the 20th century:

70,000 dead in the Messina, Italy quake of 7.2 magnitude Dec 28, 1908.

200,000 dead in the Ningxia-Kansu, China quake of 8.96 magnitude Dec 16, 1920.

143,000 dead in the Kanto, Japan quake of 7.9 magnitude Sept 1, 1923.

200,000 dead in the Tsinghai, China quake of 7.9 magnitude May 22, 1927.

32,700 dead in the Erzincan, Turkey quake of 7.8 magnitude Dec 26, 1939.

66,000 dead in the Peru quake of 7.9 magnitude May 31, 1970.

255,000 dead in the Tangshan, China quake of 7.5 magnitude July 27, 1976.

Certainly the last two I mention above are well within the memory of most Mudcatters. Which begs the question, why do remember the Alaska earthquake that killed 125 people instead, but not those above?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:25 PM

Leadfingers, there was also a quake in Gujarat, India in 2001 that killed over 20,000 people. Earthquakes are actually very common in this part of the world, and there is no reasonable justification for why they don't have the technology, except their governments and the world development organizations haven't been fit and decent enough to install it. I certainly hope that is corrected now.

BTW, that Ningxia-Kansu, China quake was a 8.6 magnitude. Sorry for the spectacular typo!


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:27 PM

I don't know.

You tell us why, you with all the answers and facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:39 PM

" why do remember the Alaska earthquake that killed 125 people instead, but not those above?"

because at the time, China was very insular and hated for news of disasters to get out. There very little information about how bad it was, even though we knew that it had occured....the Alaskan quake had movies and news almost instantly and was headlines in the more open press.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:43 PM

And the Peruvian quake?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM

Robomatic,

it's 'Die perfekte Welle', one of the most successful songs of this year. 'The perfect wave' sems to be this summer's german youth language for 'extremely good'.

Helicopters of the Sri Lankan army (certainly not German army helicopters) are transporting tourists from a region that is inaccessible by land (street damaged by the tsunami) to a point from which they can travel on by car. One of these tourists was Kohl. The press, of course, mentions by name only the one who they think is known. Whether he was flown out first (2 days after the tsunami) or not I don't know.

I prefer politicians in disasters not to interfere with the local rescuing activities and to comment from a place further away.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

Good heavens I wish some of you could step back and observe your own words in context. Here we have a natural catastrophe and human tragedy of staggering proportions, and even NOW we have so many who just MUST make a mudcat thread into "Americans are ignorant," "Americans are stupid," Americans are selfish," "Americans are greedy." (No, we don't watch news about the tragedy because it doesn't involve oil or textiles.)

I stumbled into mudcat just before 9/11, and I read a lot of insightful thoughts which helped me get my brain around that tragedy. That's what made me stick around and keep reading, but criminy, I'm beginning to understand where Martin Gibson is coming from. The incessant "Americans are" themes are SO tiring. They permeate and degrade almost any worthwhile reading.

My apologies for this interuption to those who are trying to focus on the subject at hand. Back to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:44 AM

I never suggested Kohl should interfere with rescue operations. I suggested he should have stayed, at least with the foreign tourists, and played the role of world respected public figure who could speak first hand about the disaster and the needs of the locals on the ground. Had he requested to be briefed by the local authorities so he could speak to the world about the relief and aid needed, I'm certain they would have shown that diplomatic courtesy to him.

And as to the supposed American bashing here, give me a fucking break. The majority of posters here are Americans. Who better to speak to our own weaknesses and flaws? Would you all prefer they just be swept under the rug and we all agree with the Martin Gibsons of the world that being assholes is a just fine way to be?

And hey--in case none of you have noticed, in my recent posts I have criticized the governments of the region, the world development organizations, a German politician...but for some reason heric only sees criticism of Americans? Looks like someone is very selective in their blindness to the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

Irate Over 'Stingy' Remark, US Adds $20 Million to Disaster Aid

Google the above. Interesting article.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

>>>only sees criticism of Americans? Looks like someone is very selective in their blindness to the truth. <<<

Can't figure out any part of that. But carry on.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:21 AM

And it is no surprise the right wing media in the US has gone into anti-UN, anti-internationalist echo chamber overdrive, screaming about how the world is now blaming the US for the Asian tragedy, because a UN official said the initial relief package offered by the US, $15 million, was a reflection of the wealthy nations' stingy response to these sorts of disasters.

So it is no coincidence that we see the right wingers here in Mudcat echoing what they just heard on the Fox and MSNBC echo chambers' fashionably fascist talk shows. Sadly predictable, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:34 AM

Of course, I didn't mention that the UN official was speaking of both the US and the European Union, who initially offered a whopping $4.1 million dollars to the relief efforts. Along with their own planes to rescue their own people. Considering the paltry amount of aid they are offering, it is damn generous they didn't insist the Sri Lankan authorities evacuate them at least, like Kohl did.

The aid response from the governments of Europe and the US to this tragedy has been pathetic. We should be deeply ashamed at the paltry amount the world's wealthiest nations, who have no compunctions about exploiting the region as their tourist paradise, have offered. There is simply no excuse for their being so closefisted and parsimonious about relief to the area.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:58 AM

FYI: From the article I mentioned above:

"Mr. Egeland responded to Mr. Powell's criticism by saying that he had been misunderstood and that he had not been referring to aid for the quake and tsunami victims but to the overall trend in recent years by Western countries in aiding the poor. He said pledges for the current crisis had been "most generous."


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:32 AM

WE don't know where massive disasters like this are going to hit, and we don't know what kind of disasters they are going to be. But we know there are going to be disasters, because that is part of the world we live in.

And than is why we need to have the infrastructure for responding in place, all the time, ready to move into action when it is needed. Instead we have a few largely paper organisations and committees, starved of resources. It's a bit like having a firefighting system that just relies on helpful neighbours with buckets.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

The response to this terrible tragedy by the the rest of the countries of the world is beyond belief, it is not often I would agree with The Daily Mail [UK] newspaper, but they sum it up perfectly by stating that Britain spends the same amount daily on Iraq than that which they have offered to the countries affected by this disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:31 AM

A few friends kindly contributed a sum of money which I have sent off to-day to the Red Cross, everyone I have talked to were more than willing to help out, the TV pictures are heart-rending.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

If I didn't have the responsibility of my children, I would offer myself to go there and help.....I feel quite frustrated at not being able to do more than donate an incredibly small amount of money.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

I had some friends go to Costa Rica after the hurricane to help out for two weeks. Most of us can't do that of course, what with jobs and families. My friends were both single, well off financially, and had vacation time available and took it.

Money is truly the best most of us this side the planet can offer, if we have it. Question is, who best to send the money to?I'd rather send money to the region directly, and not have it eaten up by administrative costs just to ship the money to Asia, if you catch my drift.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Not that this really answers the question, but you can choose from the overwhelming number of suggestions and further linked references on this page:
http://tsunamihelp.blogspot.com/

I personally have distrust, without hard evidence to justify it, of the Red Cross administrative fees and the incompetence of the U.S. Federal Disaster Relief agencies. (It's based on purely anecdotal tales involving localized actions in California and Florida. Both criticisms/concerns are based therefore only on guilt by association.) The legitimacy of those concerns are not important given the immediacy of this situation.

I ended up choosing the Salvation Army, whom I trust, again with no hard evidence to justify it, and Doctors Without Borders. But you can readily find very localized entities in this internet age, that will hopefully receive cash exactly where it is needed. (But if you go too local, then maybe the cash won't be very useful if what is needed can't be bought.) No easy choices but I think you have to take a quick stab and hope for the best.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Guest, heric

yes, I have many of the so called "Americans" here pegged.

They are some pretty shitty ones at that. They belong to that worthless society called "Hand wringers and social commies of America." I forgive them most of the time for just being some of American society's misfits and square pegs.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Stop! This thread will be about earthquake and related tsunami bring death.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

MBS Lynne,

"I feel quite frustrated at not being able to do more than donate an incredibly small amount of money."

One of the things I came to realize when I first became a firefighter is that soaking the axe head in a pail of water with some antifreeze in it may help save a life or a structure, or that checking the air pressure of the truck tires could be the difference between someone living or not. What the heck does that mean? It means that there are NO unimportant tasks in a system that is dedicated to helping others.

I had been 'fighting' fires for over a year before I ever got to use the hose. And it was two years before I entered a burning structure wearing breathing apparatus [BA]. The first big structure fire (a large house with an attached garage and attached workshop) I was at found me in charge of a hydrant--a job given to rookies because 1) it has to be done and 2) there is less chance of screwing up badly and getting someone else injured or killed. Here is the genesis of a structure-fire call to a volunteer department (although details may vary according to circumstance).

Someone notices smoke or flame coming from a house

That someone calls 911 (999 in England)

The 911 dispatch takes the info and alerts the appropriate fire department by sending a radiowave page that triggers the beeping device in firefighters' pagers

The firefighters go to the hall where the first FF in alerts command that the hall is manned

Command has gone directly to the scene and the FF dress in bunker gear while command sizes up the scene

The dressed FFs go to the equipment floor where they are assigned to various trucks. Our hall has six trucks. Because we handle town calls and county calls, the fire location and fire 'size' will dictate which trucks respond

The FF who was first in will assign FFs to the trucks that will roll. On this hypothetical fire we require a pumper, an aerial ladder truck and a rescue truck. The pumper will be first out. The driver has to be a pump operator, and the four FFs who will travel in that truck have to be BA certified. It rolls and receives direction en route (from the command vehicle at the scene) as to where to stage and what they're facing

Regardless of the fire size, most trucks only carry between 500 and a 1000 gallons of water, and that can be sprayed away in less than about four minutes. If the fire requires a massive amount of water 'right now', someone will have to hook to a hydrant to ensure a continuous supply to the truck. If that isn't done, after four minutes ya got a team of guys who have no water. If they're inside, they have no water protection or way to control the burn

The second truck in is the aerial ladder truck. It will hook to a hydrant and hook to the first pumper to provide water for the first pumper and water for itself Most areial ladders trucks carry very little water with them

The third truck in will carry FFs who will be assigned duties when they arrive on scene

Within twelve minutes (tops) it has gone from someone seeing smoke to having 12-16 FFs on scene and starting to deal with the fire. There isn't a single step there that can be cut out. There is no unimportant job. The axe head in the water with the antifreeze? The guy who did that expanded the wood in the axe head so that when it was used to gain access to the house, the head--which had become loose because the wood had shrunk was expanded by the soaking, and the guys could get into the structure. The guy who established water supply at the hydrant? He made sure his buddies inside had protection from the flame and water to begin the extinguishment. The scene commander? He determined whether or not the house was occupied and if the shop attached to the house contained things that go boom. The guy who ensured all the radios were working and had fully charged batteries has also ensured that the guys inside have a secure link/contact with their fellows on the outside. It's important to be able to tell them that the structue is in danger of collapse and they should get out, now.

This scenario isn't all that hypothetical. And something else that isn't hypothetical is this: Which event in the chain of things would you cancel (have not happen)? The call to 911? The radio page? The hydrant hook up? The axe head maintenance?

The fire axe cost $30. The pail to soak it in cost $3. The antifreeze cost $2. The truck cost $85,000. The training for each FF cost $10,000. The radio batteries cost $40. The call to 911 cost $.15 and the gas to get the pumper to the fire cost $1. While you consider which to leave out because it's 'an incredibly small amount of money', I will suggest that there is no such thing. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your contribution and your 'goodness'. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your humanity. That you have done what you can do.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:04 PM

CNN now reporting over 80,000 people dead. 1/3 children. 1/3 children being that most of these places population is 1/3 children. The children had the least chance of hanging on to something or running away fast enough.
An aftershock was just reported measuring .6.
This is a tradgedy and heartbreaking to see all of the bodies that can't even be identified because most of them only wore swimsuits and now they are bloating to unrecoginized features.
My question is, why don't these people and the relief teams get away from all the devestation. Go inland a mile. Get the healthy people that are walking around all of this, away from it, where they can?
Seems to me it would help a little on the spread of disease. They say even chicken poxs are breaking out. That's strange, but do you hear what I'm saying?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:06 PM

Guest, heric

this thread is already about complainers who are pointing fingers and blaming Americans about the earthquake, related tsunami bring death.

Everyone has already pointed out how tragic it is. This thread took on it's accusatory tone very early on.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM

So, who's going to rewrite Mighty Day into Tagalog? Or even into English? Time for a song... too early for jokes, I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

"In a sign of the brutal disconnect between investors and the poor who suffered the tragedy, however, Indonesian and Indian stock markets were hitting record highs on perceived economic good times."


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Approximately one and a third percent of the world's population just died in this event. The final toll will be above two percent, IMO. If some of you behaved this way at a funeral you would be trounced. And, you would deserve to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:52 PM

Who is the prize prick that blanked out part of my message, this was a most relevant point regarding this tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

I take back my last message as I see the obstruction may have been due to my own PC, apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:58 PM

heric, I always donate to Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders first when I make international disaster donations. They are already in there, on the ground, in all the worst hit countries.

Their organization is very tight, very quick first responder teams on all the continents who go out to quickly assess where the needs are greatest and will be of greatest benefit on the ground. Then usually within 24-48 hours, they start sending in their volunteers who will stay in the region for 3-9 months, depending upon the need. They are very good at what they do, and they don't soak up a lot of donation money in administrative costs because they are very well organized to mobilize immediately and with great effectiveness. They always have a separate administrative team on the ground to coordinate goods and services, so the field teams don't have to do that part of the work on the ground in the nearest big city to coordinate things coming in and things going to the field.

A friend of my daughter's mom is a doctor who has volunteered for a couple of tours with them in the last ten years, and since we heard straight from the horse's mouth about their organization, we've been donating to them ever since.

I also always look for organizations that can set up camps for the displaced quickly and efficiently, in the area of the disaster, if possible. Catholic Relief Services is pretty good at this if I decide to go locally.

I won't donate to Red Cross/Red Crescent anymore because of the negative things I've heard from people in the disaster relief business about them. And then there was the whole 9/11 debacle. And there are only a handful of UN organizations I will donate to anymore either because of this sort of thing. I do still donate to the UN Population Fund, as that money goes directly pregnant & nursing women, who are often the first to be overlooked in disasters. But I'm not too keen on how much money it takes the UN orgs to administer relief. It is a massive bureaucracy, burdened by way too much inefficiency. Unfortunately, they are sometimes the only resort, not just the last one.

As to money, I can rarely afford more than $10.00 to give to a couple of charities. But I also know that 1,000 people donating $10 each equals $10,000 pretty quickly, and 10,000 people donating $10 each equals $100,000.

That adds up to some serious change in no time at all. So as our mighty firefighter above says, don't ever think your small money donation is insignificant. It never is, because it all adds up to real help. Truly.

Another bit of info people interested in donating to international relief efforts now and later might like to know about is the Reuters AlertNet website. It is a great website, that is jam packed with concise, up to the minute information on disaster relief around the world. For instance, right now you are two clicks away from a comprehensive list of disaster relief aid by country if you wish, or by charitable organization if you wish. It's an excellent resource to use to find a charity worthy of your support.

One final thing I'd like to say about disaster relief. I only support organizations that stay in the field long enough to finish the job, and who don't rob from the suffering Peters in Sudan to pay short term for the suffering Pauls in Sri Lanka. What I mean is, too many charitable organizations shift too many resources away from the areas like Sudan or Nigeria or Somalia or Turkey or Afghanistan where the ongoing relief needs are the most crucial to break the cycle of dependency upon foreign aid. That isn't responsible or effective crisis or relief management. So that is another thing I investigate about charities before I donate.

Once you've done your homework, you can donate worry free, knowing your dollars will get the best bang for the buck on the relief front. That is very important to me, because I know that millions and billions of dollars get wasted over the years that don't need to get wasted, by inefficiency, bureaucratic in-fighting, and "values" politics (a lot of religious relief organizations are guilty of the values politics thing in the international relief game) and way too much aid from them comes with "values" strings attached. Hence, I always look very carefully at any religious organizations when I donate.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

I have just seen on Irish TV News that the response for aid to the various charities has been overwhelming, it is expected that the £3.00 per head of the population given to Band Aid will be surpassed this time, great news.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM

"So as our mighty firefighter above says"

Eat dirt.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 PM

Doctors without borders...
Thank you for that.

I know many may think that prior warning is a moot issue but it follows the plot of the movie Jaws with striking similarity.

Source: Expressen (Swedish online newspaper)
Date: Dec. 28
Translated by: CLiss
www.expressen.se/expresse...sp?a=22...

"Tsunami warning was stopped"

Just minutes after the earthquake in the Indian Ocean on Sunday morning, Thailand's foremost meterological experts were sitting together in a crisis meeting. But they decided not to warn about the tsunami "out of courtesy to the tourist industry", write the Thailand daily newspaper The Nation.

The experts got the news around 8:00 am on Sunday morning local time. An hour later, the first massive wave struck. But the experts started to discuss the economic impacts when they were discussing if a tsunami warning should be made. The main argument against such a warning was that there have not been any floods in 300 years. Also, the experts believed the Indonesian island Sumatra would be a "cushion" for the southern coast of Thailand. The experts also had bad information; they thought the tremor was 8.1. A similar earthquake occurred in the same area in 2002 with no flooding at all.


We finally decided not to do anything because the tourist season was in full swing. The hotels were 100% booked full. What if we issued a warning, which would have led to an evacuation, and nothing had happened. What would be the outcome? The tourist industry would be immediately hurt. Our department would not be able to endure a lawsuit...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:17 PM

Why? I was being genuine and serious. Your post was an excellent example of why small donations matter, and I was supporting you making that point.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

Sorry GUEST. I took it the wrong way. Please accept my apology.

Bad few weeks here. I shouldn't have snapped at you. New Year's resolution in the making.

Sincerely,

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: belter
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM

The gent who says 1 1/3% of world percent just died is a little off. The number is more like 1 1/3 thousanth of a percent. When talking about world population, thats still a very scary number.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Right, belter. Maybe I should learn how to read the accessories calculator which showed the decimal places at the end of the threes. Sorry all.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:02 PM

1.33333333333333333333333333e-5


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM

Its chilling how the human mind tries to put in numbers what we can not truely envision. I have on more than one occasion imagined how any media presentation would portray a holocaust that may number in the billions.

These Christmas day earthquakes for the last 2 years comes at a time when the American President is on vacation and we are warmed in our hearts and hearths with holiday spirit.

I am not indicting anyone regarding this tradgedy of biblical proportions. I am stunned however at the US government gesture of $35 million in relief. We spend somewhat less than a billion dollars a day in Iraq war expenses.

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose.
I repeat

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose with the US response to this tradgedy.

What does $35 million buy? It buys only 20% of the bonus for a CEO.
It buys a fancy new yacht or several private Gulf Stream private jets.
Private US donations will certainly dwarf 35 million many times over but for Bush advisors to put George on TV and declare the amgic number 35mil is representative of the true nature of the people in charge of the project for the new american century.

If this opinion simply strikes some people here as wholesale American bashing I can not change thier minds. I only hope the administration will change my mind with a proper response.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:30 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for the info.

We have an epochal situation here. If you'll forgive me dragging a phrase from the Presidential debates, we've got a true 'global test'. An international problem that calls for international help and cooperation.

I think there is already a lot of compassion. This is an unforeseen cataclysm and the victims are truly victims. If such a wave hit the East coast of the US I think all that wonderful infrastructure which insulates us from the raw natural world would've been swept away or rendered useless, and we would look no different from the folks we are seeing thanks to the immediacy of satellite transmission. And I think most of us know that.

So let's see if the UN is good for anything. Let's see if these growing South East Asian economic powerhouses are generating their own recuperative capabilities (Signs are they are).

Guest, I'd be able to take you a bit more seriously if you took on a name, even if only a temporary one. I distrust the un-named self-righteous who like to dump facts which might or might not be complete and figures which might or not be accurate. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and I'm not interested in feeding your ego (although I just have by bringing up the subject of 'you'). Anyhow, I know people who were in the Alaskan quake and I don't know people who were in other quakes (except some minor ones I've been in). You want to remain not only anonymous but unidentifiable, I suggest you start a whole thread for yourself, called "No matter what happens, let's dump on someone and feel smug". I promise I'll show up and make you feel self-important, but no more in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:42 PM

Oh, donuel please spare us.

Al quaida could give a shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Donuel. Considering the number of Muslims in the area hit by the quake and tsunamis, it would certainly behoove the US & Britain particularly, to be a bit more forthcoming with cash AND compassion, or we'll have signed our own death warrants in Asia as well as the Middle East.

14% of India's population is Muslim. 100% of the population of the Maldives is Muslim. Only 7% of Sri Lankans are Muslim, but a whopping 88% of Indonesia, the country hardest hit, are Muslim, along with 60% of Malaysians.

And the whole Muslim world is certainly watching the US & Britain right now, and the EU & UN to a lesser extent.

One need only look at the levels of aid the international relief community has poured into Iraq in the last year and half to see just how skewed relief efforts have been in the imperial Shrub II era.

Gerhard Schroeder is wisely advocating for debt relief for the hardest hit countries like Indonesia, just as it was given to Iraq, after the US and Britain strong armed their allies into it earlier this year. Billions of dollars in international & US aid money has been dumped down the bottomless pit that is Iraq in the past year and half, and all the US can scrounge together for the entire south Asian region is a measly $35 million bucks.

Read the overview about the politics of disaster relief aid in the other thread, match it up with the news that is already out there (like Schroeder's suggestion that some debt relief be given to the region, comments by UN officials about the niggardly response from the world's wealthiest nations, etc) and it all begins to add up to our US government's intentions to do as little as it possibly can to extend aid, comfort and assistance to the region, much less our compasssion.

Why the very idea of the US being a compassionate nation has become a cruel and bitter joke around the world, and the predicatably despicable Bush administration response is the exact reason why more and more people around the world view the US government and it's "aid and development" agencies and arms with such contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:42 PM

Oh, Guest, you bore me with your political anti-american agenda.

what do you have? A masters degree in bullshit?

The latest news is that India is turning down all relief.

OK, fine. We offered.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM

BTW, it is easy to detect Bush's motives for forming his little "coalition" for sending aid to the region. He is setting up a dynamic to compete with both the UN and EU efforts, so he can turn around and condemn both institutions in the morning. One need only look at who his "partners" are in this endeavor to see through this sham at the expense of the Asian people desperating awaiting aid and assistance.

So who does Bush send in? US troops, US military hardware, US military advisors. That will certainly reassure the Indonesian Muslims, I'm sure. Or did everyone forget that Indonesia is a hotbed of radical Muslim activity and on Shrub's "war on terrorism" hit list. This disaster provides the perfect opportunity for Bush to peacefully invade yet another Muslim nation.

And this international coalition Bushie Boy is gonna head up, of India, Japan, Australia, and US, is more than a bit suspicious, especially in the wake of the stock market news in India when all this was being announced.

And according the US Agency for International Development, we have now raised a whopping $110 million worldwide to deal with this crisis.

In fact, this new American coalition of the Asian willing is as genuine and sincere as Martin Gibson's claims of being compassionate about the Asian victims he and the Bush administration immediately wrote off in the wake of the catastrophe.

Don't get me wrong, the survivors will be damn glad to see the US warships that have the ability to produce up to 90,000 gallons of water a day. But we also know it will only be a tiny drop in a huge bucket of need for those people, and when it's all over, we'll still have US troops in Indonesia to wage our war on the Muslims there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM

And what are you doing about it, Guest?

Holding up a brown finger in the air hoping someone will smell it and give you joy?

You need a padded room.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:55 PM

I agree with you Don H. that $35m is a mere pittance and I will be greatly disappointed if the US government does not help to a far greater extent than that number. I think and hope that that is a preliminary hard cash number.

I can't agree for a second that aid to any of the nations should factor in Al Qaida or Muslim ethnic sentiments. If you do go down that (self-interest) path, look where you end up: Right at that last GUEST post which claims that US government giving aid in significant amounts can only be a conniving attempt upstage the U.N. Good heavens. I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:12 PM

" I enjoy being naïve and will work at staying that way. "

Which is why we have the Bush and Blair administration continuing in power too. If you would rather remain naive in spite of the evidence, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Anyone who thinks disaster relief and humanitarian aid from the wealthy nations is all about good intentions is seriously deluded.

The motives of the Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up, they are a whole universe away from your head in the sand, heric.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:28 PM

They are broadcasting 80,000 deaths and the counting is not over. As the delivery of disaster aid unfolds, the struggle will be to prevent disease from doubling the initial casualties. The latest I heard was that supplies are building up at the airports, but the infrastructure (roads to deliver the supplies, electricity to power water treatment pumps and refrigeration units) is going to be the challenge. The tsunami knocked a railroad train to hell and gone.

Rebuilding infrastructure is something the US is historically quite good at. Let's get cracking.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:36 PM

>>Bush administration and the chains attached to their aid are so far from noble and on the up and up<<<

I can grasp that GUEST. But the hard part is that you will lambaste them if they give too much, and you will lambaste them if they give too little. I'm not going to reach your level of sophistication in these matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:03 PM

Giving too much? MMMMWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAA!!!

Sure we're good at rebuilding infrastructure. Look at how well we're doing it in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM

Perhaps the UN offical's crack was dearly needed or perhaps the sheer magnitude of the disaster is finally sinking in, regardless, the Canadian government is now coughing up $40 million. Now lets see if the US government will up its ante, with an equivalent commitment of $400 million.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:37 PM

Guest, I get the feeling that if the US did NOT use the military to bring in supplies you would be wondering here WHY NOT, since, you would no doubt say, it would be the fastest means and far more efficient.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

Donuel, hopefully that will be immediate funding - if the various agencies need more then I trust it'll be provided (if the various countries in a position to contribute have any conscience). Certainly private individuals are contributing massively, in addition to any government aid.

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own. This was never about religion, it was about how much people (and their elected representatives) cared about people in other countries, and the elected representatives of some rich countries (the US and UK) were seen to be giving too little on behalf of their citizens. To their credit, most Western nations care deeply about people in trouble, which is why the US was stung into doubling contributions (although I'd be more impressed if they paid their UN money to help regular aid work outside of crises). I think the almost complete lack of assistance from the richest nations in the Middle East displays how little unity there is in the so-called "Muslim community" - and, incidentally, how little the leaders of those countries care about anything that isn't right on their doorstep.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:13 PM

All people care about other people, and want to do all they can to help in circumstances like these. Many of the westerners coming out of the devastated regions all speak of the generosity of the Sri Lankans, the Thai, etc etc. If we were able to keep the relief effort at that level, it would be wonderful.

But disaster relief is big business, and fraught with geopolitical realities most people think get magically suspended at times of crisis. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because people aren't educated about those cold, hard, brutal realities of "foreign aid" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that we should all plug our ears, cover our eyes, and pull the blankets over our heads.

It is much better to learn the truth, and then have some knowledge to carry us all forward to the next crisis, hopefully changing things for the better along the way, than simply deny that side of disaster assistance and relief exists and spit at the messengers saying otherwise.

I've just watched a State Department briefing on C SPAN. Believe me, I'm not the only one disgusted by the Bush administration's militarist response to the crisis and attempt to usurp the UN's authority as the global institutional leader in humanitarian and refugee aid, assistance, and relief. The reporters kept asking why the US was forming this "Core Group" when it was UN's job to spearhead and coordinate. I'm not just making all this up out of thin air.

The State Dept is also being challenged by the reporters in the briefing why it has taken so long for the US to dispatch the planes and ships already in the region to assist. I don't have any problem whatsoever with ships, helicopters, etc. being used for the rescue and recovery relief efforts in the immediate aftermath of the disaster. I have serious problems though, with sending in US troops (I mean come on, there aren't any blue helmets or other country's military going into the region that I've heard of) rather than US humanitarian experts and workers, and with any set up that results in our military remaining beyond the initial rescue and recovery phase as a presence in the region. Especially in the most unstable areas like Banda Aceh in Sumatra, where a civil war has been raging for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:23 AM

Right now they need troops - they need people to dispose of thousands and thousands of bodies. The experts can come in when the coast is clear, but it's a waste of expertise to just put them to work burning/burying bodies. But the dead and rotting are a tremendous hazard and may kill as many a sthe initial tsunamis did.

Meanwhile, did anybody catch the amazing graphic they had behind the ABC news anchors? Really showed the dynamics of the waves. Why didn't they make that a main part of their anchorage?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:35 AM

In a situation like this the only thing to do is to be ready to shoulder the cost, whatever it is. The same kind of attitude societies take to fighting a war. "Whatever need to be done, we'll do it." And that's not going to be a few million here and there, it's going to mean billions.

The number who have died so far, which looks like topping 100,000, is just the start. It is estimated that there are five million survivors without the things they need to survive - clean water, food, shelter, medical help.

It's the job of the rest of us, the lucky people who, through no merit of our own, weren't directly affected, to do whatever we can, however much that costs us and disrupts our cosy world. That means being ready to give directly as indivuals, but it also means doing what we can to force our political servants (who we treat as if they were our political masters) to respond adequately on our behalf.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM

Arthur C. Clarke has checked in, finally, he's OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:44 AM

i thought he(bush) missed a chance for the world to gain respect for the USA again...
i somehow think that the administration did not believe that the tragedy was as big at first,as it really turned out to be...
it was a golden opportunity for the USA to let the world see and know that we care about everyone and are willing to take a stand for those who need us!
i just feel that we(the USA) should have taken the lead in world response to such a huge tragedy!...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM

Typical lefty posturing, this time trying to capitalize on a tragedy to finger point and get their anti-American agenda across.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

If we had pledged a billion dollars to the UN's effort, imagine what that would have meant. We spend more than that daily just maintaining the charade of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Again, I ask the question, is the US news media underreporting the casualties and devastation because the Bush administration's attempts to minimize the scale of the catastrophe?

Hell, even the US AID guy in the State Dept briefing said the news media is grossly underreporting the numbers of dead, because they are only using the figures of number of bodies recovered. Many of the bodies will never be recovered. He said people should be prepared for the numbers of dead to go much higher.

As to the idea that a military response being right/wrong--I'm not saying no military support should have been given. Quite the contrary, I think the US military in the Pacific should have responded immediately, just as they would had this disaster happened off our coasts. I would credit Bush with setting up the coalition, if I thought that meant these nations were truly going to be coordinating things for the entire region, which is the awful part of this disaster--it is spread throughout 12 countries and thousands of thousands of miles of ocean between sites of devastation.

But the US response, especially considering that we have a lot of hardware and troop strength in the region, just wasn't forthcoming.

Two helicopters and an airplane? Jaysus, can we spare that much?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:00 AM

Martin, if your 9:47 post is in reference to tarheel's 9:44 post, I think you're wrong. I think his comments in that post are just the opposite of anti-American as you said. I believe they are born of his belief in the GREATNESS of this nation, one that is comprised of people who are deeply compassionate and generous in their response to the tremendous tragedy that has befallen our brothers and sisters. His expression of disappointment in that initial response is legitimate. I think it's BECAUSE he believes in the greatness of this nation that he is hoping for more.

Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions. This is an opportunity for the world to come together. May it be so.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:08 AM

116,000 and counting....my paltry $100 won't go far, but it's something. This is one third the population of the entire state of Wyoming....I can't even imagine...........


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM

I read that it's estimated that the collections for this in Ireland so far amount to £3 per head (about $4.8), and that's without taking into account whatever the Government does.

If only the other comfortably-off countries could match that it'd make a serious difference - it'd mean £1350 million pounds across the European Union, and about £900 from the USA. Adding up to £2,250 million - equivalent to $4430 million, just for those two regionsn of the world. That is the kind of money that is going to be needed

And hell, that £3 a head isn't an unrealistic amount of money to give in a situation like that. I suspect that most Mudcatters will be giving more than that.

And that is why the amounts so far promised by all our Governments really are not at all impressive. Money isn't the only thing or even the most important thing, but it's the necessary thing.

Remember, for all we know that mountain in Las Palmas in the Canaries could slip into the sea tonight and when it does the people of the Atlantic could be facing the same catastrophe, only probably far worse. If it doesn't happen tonight it's certainly going to happen some time.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:09 AM

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own.

Ok, I did. Here's the text contained in your link:

RIYADH, Dec 28 (Reuters) - Oil-rich Saudi Arabia pledged on Tuesday a $10 million aid package to victims of the tsunami disaster in Asia, which officials say has killed more than 59,000 people and affected millions of others.

A statement on the official Saudi Press Agency said the country would donate $5 million worth of food, tents and medicine, to be transported and distributed via the Saudi Red Crescent.

Another $5 million in funds will be given to several international aid groups such as the Red Cross and the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, the statement added.

Neighbouring Gulf country Kuwait has pledged a little over $2 million in aid. The United Arab Emirates will donate 30 tonnes of food, blankets and clothing to the victims.

Aid agencies struggled on Tuesday to cope with the scale of the disaster. The United Nations said communities would require billions of dollars to help them recover.


The GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the GDP of the US (the GDP being a fairly good measure of available resources of a country). According to the article in your link, Saudi Arabia has committed 10 million dollars. According to the figures given in the posts preceding yours, the US had committed 35 million dollars. So that would mean that the amount committed to by the US as of the time of your post (as far as we can tell using the information in this thread), was only about three percent greater than that of Saudi Arabia in terms of percentage of available resources.

I have some difficulty understanding why you would choose a thread about a tragedy of the magnitude of this one to make such a bigoted hatemongering post.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:41 AM

A small correction to my previous post. It should read:

The per capita GDP of Saudi Arabia is approximately 31 percent of the per capita GDP of the US


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:43 AM

"And do you have a picture of the pain?"---Phil Ochs

As always, vicarious stuff going on. Quit counting the dead---and get to the saving of lives. In this, I am pro-life!

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM

Why not instead of spending our energies debating this here, get "out there" and do something to help?

I've just walked up to our local shops - full of people panicking about getting trolley-loads of food for the one day of famine in UK know as New Year's Day .. the banks don't have any signs up saying "donate here" yet, etc... no one is rattling a tin - albeit that it is reported that the British public has donated £1m an hour over the past 24 hours.

So, I'm proposing getting the donation details photocopied off and standing outside the supermarket handing these out outside the supermarket - going into the banks and getting the managers to put signs up "donate here" (surely these can be downloaded from the various disaster appeal sites).

Got go .. things to do.
Cheers
Nem


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Good to see that Google has got a link on its front page - Ways to help with tsunami relief"


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM

Satellite images


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:57 AM

Guest,KT. No you are wrong. My comments were in support of Tarheel. I've read enough of his posts to know where he is coming from and I feel similar to him on various matters.

I do not need your lecturing.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM

McGrath:

That island is Tenerife, I believe, in the Canaries. The mountain in question is already underwater, but liable to break off and cause huge underwater waves producing Atlantic tsunamis.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM

I just saw a report on the BBC that the UK has pledged 50 million pounds (roughly 100 million dollars) and the USA has pledged 18 million. The math doesn't lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM

those reports of 'pledges' don't tell the whole story for ANY nation. Some of the numbers represent only preliminary amounts to get things started. No one knows yet exactly how much will be needed, and in what form.

The US is sending things like an aircraft carrier with helicopters which will not be reflected in that $ amount. No one said the early 'pledges' would be the final amount. Help will be required in that region for years, and I suspect that the US will

I am not defending OR attacking anyone's donations...yet. 6 days is not soon enough to make these decisions about relative generosity.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM

No, Amos - Tenerife is also in the Canary Isles, but a different island from La Palma - here are two more sites about the disaster that is waiting for us some time in the future (tonight or in a hundred years, but it's coming): Why the only certainly about the La Palma tsunami is that it WILL happen, and Evaluation of the threat of mega tsunami generation from postulated massive slope failures of island stratovolcanoes

The point is not that we should turn our attention from the present disaster, and doing what we can to help, but that we should be even more motivated to help out by the awareness that some time it is going to be us needing the help.

....................

£50 million pounds for the UK works out at about £1 per head, not exactly a sum of money that would put much strain on most of us. The same would be true if the US were to up its contribution to the same level, and stumped up £300 million.

I would hope, and anticipate, that ordinary Americans dipping their hands in their pocket will come up with more money than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM

Brucie...thank you for making me feel better about the little I can do. And with all your other posts on here...as with almost all your posts..I agree entirely..you are absolutely right. What a lovely man you are.

Btw..I'm rather proud to say that my 14 year old son (RAT-W), really upset by what he had just seen on the news, said he was going to donate all the money he'd just got for his birthday and Christmas. He has a Saturday job, and he is now talking of working a couple of Saturdays and sending the money to one of the appeals for this dreadful disaster.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM

The US has now announced that it is committing $350 million to Asia.

Wouldn't it be nice if one good thing came out of this tragedy? We can't afford an unwinnable, unnecessary, useless war AND a humanitarian effort to save and nurture whole peoples. Let's let the war go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: KT
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:16 PM

I was just writing to affirm what BillD said. As I'd said in my earlier post "Our response to this tragedy need not be limited to initial reactions." Then I saw Ebbie's post! Exactly!! We have many opportunities to respond in many different ways. May it bring out the best in all of us.

Martin, my intent was not to lecture you. My apologies if it appeared that way. Please see my PM to you.

KT


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:43 PM

The response from Britain and Ireland is magnificent, how can anyone find fault with the heartfelt generosity of those who give to such a worthy cause.             The TV news from the BBC and RTE shows people from all walks of life and all age groups donating to all of the various charities, "humbling" was the response from one Red Cross official.

The same support I am sure is also taking place on the European and American continents.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:02 PM

The earthquake center in Hawaii informed the American leased atoll in Diego Garcia used for military manuevers in Iraq and Afghanistan of the earthquake and possible tsunamis. It was ignored and Indonesia, Ceylon, India, Sumatra all suffered the consequences.

Undergound testing of atomic materials may have had something to do with the earthquake and ignoring the melting of the polar ice caps that raise the water table may mean more tsunamis for the future.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM

BillD, I know this sounds cynical and you don't want to go there, but it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response to this disaster, IMO.

The US government quickly immediately approved $13.6 BILLION to disaster relief in Florida in the wake of the hurricanes this year, just before the US election.

Compare that to the initial $10 million offered for this multi-national disaster.

You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no political aspect to disaster relief. Politicians control the pursestrings. We need to be clear about that, and act accordingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

" it is truly impossible not to be cynical about the US response ..." ...and do you mean the US response or G. Bush's response? They are NOT exactly the same thing.

as you see, some are NOT cynical. You will have to deal with your own IMOs.

All I said was we need to wait & see. In a disaster of this type, the need will be ongoing, and it looks like most of the world is gearing up to do a fair share.

You may speculate all you wish about the 'immediate' order and magnitude of the US pledges.....As much as I dislike Bush and the current administration, I personally have no knowlege of the discussions and decision making process. It simply makes no difference whether the US said "$35 million" or $10 Billion in that first couple of days, as it will take time and planning to spend ANY allocated amount. It's not like we needed to drop crates of money over Sri Lanka within 48 hours! Once it was clear how extensive the damage was, the dollar amount increased, and YOU do not know whether the US was shamed into a larger committment, or just took the time to be sure what to do....and unless you KNOW the answer, cynical speculating just because the US is a popular target is just tedious! You could have said "I think $35 million will not be enough-I sure hope they decide to up that."

Discuss facts rather than resorting to immediate finger pointing! If months went by and the US had said, "we think we have done enough and we ain't gonna give more!", then maybe a bit of righteous indignation would be relevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:49 PM

Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50)

I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed.

Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away.

So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM

I recognize that the tourists are being evacuated as quickly as possible, to get them out of the way, and to prevent them and their loved ones from clogging communication lines especially. I have no problem with that.

But I still have a problem with Kohl's behavior, even now. But there is no point arguing that with you Wolfgang, because we aren't going to agree.

I have been discussing facts, BillD. When I say "the US" and "the Americans" I have been referring to the Bush government. I too make distinctions between individuals and governments.

Now, I am very cynical about the Bush pledges for aid, because of the Bush government's very well known track record of pledging money and never delivering it (for instance, in the rebuilding money for Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Bam earthquake in Iran for starters). That is Bush's ideological "compassionate conservatism". Promise everything in the moment when people are most passionately engaged, wait for the hoopla and media circus to fade, and then don't deliver what you promised. That way, you look good without paying any price. The Bush strategy to a T, as we saw in the recent election with his very different response to the Floriday hurricanes--he was there in a heartbeat, passing out bottled water and promising billions. It paid off for him too. He won the hotly contested state of Florida.

Compare that to his reaction to the Asian tsunami, where the victims don't vote in American elections.

I sincerely doubt that the people of south Asia will see much of that money promised by the US government in any form other than military intervention in their countries under the flag of the "coalition" Bush has built to undermine the UN.

It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM

I don't think it makes much sense to have a U.S. coalition as well as a U.N. response. The problem is not dollars and cents. The problem is communication and distribution. It would make more sense to have the U.N. overseeing the operation so that all activities could be co-ordinated.

What is the purpose of a separate U.S. coalition?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM

To undermine the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:03 PM

I'm inclined to agree with you on this, guest, but Canada seems to be a part of the U.S. led coalition although some of the affected countries would rather deal with Canada, directly.

At any rate, the U.S. coalition and the U.N. seem to be working together on this response. Seems ineffecient, at best. Lets hope that both teams can co-ordinate their activities.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/31/debt-tsunami041230.html


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:08 PM

Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. (28 Dec 04 - 07:50)

I'm coming back to you, 28 Dec 04 - 07:50, now that more information is available. You remind me very much of GWBush, not in political leanings but in character. You too like to fire your mouth off on the basis of unreliable information and pass judgement without being even remotely well informed.

Kohl is a man I never have voted for and I always hated his politics. But here I see nothing wrong in what he has done and am ready to defend his actions. He was in the third floor of a hotel in Sri Lanka of which only the first two floors got flooded and which withstood the impact of the water. He has seen the disaster first hand. For two days, there was no access to that region due to a street having been blocked. On the third day, the surviving tourists were flown out. Some wanted to stay, Kohl among them, but have been asked by the authorities to agree being flown out. The reason for that is that they need all the remaining infrastructure for their own citizens and that accomodating tourists in areas hit by the flood takes much needed ressources away.

So he agreed being flown out with the other tourists but is among the very small minority of German tourists surviving the flood still staying in other parts of Sri Lanka. We can see him in TV supporting financial and other aid and asking Germans to donate money.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM

"It looks as though you and I won't agree either BillD, so I suggest we drop it."   ...well, perhaps so.

'agreeing' seems to mean both of us adopting YOUR position and basic attitude, I guess.

I always thought that thoughtful progress was made in debates where 'agreement' was NOT immediate. I see your general point about Bush's notion of 'useful' money being that which enhances his own position and election..........Do you see my point about NOT being sure exactly what sequence was involved in THIS case? I am not a fan of Bush, but I'd like to believe that even this Republican administration would respond to tragedy and suffering...even if they didn't say it as forcefully as I might like.

but, as you say, we'd better drop it, as I am unlikely to just nod wisely at your broad accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Bashed
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 10:35 PM

Why not quit bashing the US and do something yourselves. Does it matter what the US gives. It only matters what you give. The US will not receive any credit no matter how much it gives. So if you are for the US don't concern yourself because they will not receive any credit for what they give or do, if you are against the US take joy for they will not receive any credit for what they give or do. None of this benefits the people who are suffering. Do what you can and do not be concerned about what other people are doing. Men and women will be working to help the people suffering from this disaster without regard to receiveing credit. Companies will be giving, charities will be giving, and governments will be giving. The company I work for is matching employee contribution, so that is how I am helping. Pray, contribute, and if you are in the affected areas do what you can. Making judgements about other people efforts is not helping and only shows were your real concerns lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:55 AM

I've skipped through this, particularly the squabbling and finger pointing, and note that I will have to go read some news stories, since I didn't read about Kohl's experiences.

This came from Leadfingers on Dec. 28:
    The last Tsunami of any size in the Indian Ocean was (I Believe) in 1836 . It is hardly surprising that there was NO Tsunami early warning system in place in the Indian Ocean as the last people who actually experienced this died the best part of a hundred years ago . An interesting side effect of this catastrophe is that there is wide coverage on the American Media . A Terrible way to give so many Americans a Geography Lesson !


We had an extremely interesting lesson on the news today about what happens when cultures aren't so interfered with or colonized that their experience of their land is allowed to be handed down, generation after generation. One small island about 50 (? I think) miles north of Bande Aceh had relatively little death, though there was material destruction. Why? Because almost 200 years ago there was an earthquake, and afterward a tidal wave killed a lot of people. The elders got smart and have handed down a cultural practice, through all of those years, that when there is an earthquake, all inhabitants should immediately head for the high ground. They did that, and very few died.

Now, for the main reason I scanned this thread, to highlight some photos. ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) has a page of photos here. I call your attention to this particuarly obscene shot. I can't get the photo itself to load here, but find this thumbnail on the other link, and follow it to the Euro couple on the beach. The alt text says "Foreign tourists sunbath on a Thai beach as local workers clear the debris from the tsunami."

The man is looking up at the workers as they begin to clear the debris of the tsunami. Are there bodies in this wreckage, do you think? Is he thinking "fuck what she says, I'm going to help" or is he merely wondering if they have any cold Diet Coke around somewhere? And what in hell is wrong with this woman? If you found yourself in a place like this and you were able bodied in the face of such disaster, could you blow it off and go lie on the beach? There is no label here, except their white skin, to say that they are foreigners. Are they Europeans or Americans (and does it make a difference if both are now considered colonizers)? A Belgian friend who was here for dinner tonight said he thought they were Europeans, that they are scrambling to the area as fast as they can go because vacations are so cheap. And he said he thinks these folks left their consciences at home. Don't they know you should never leave home without it?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 06:22 AM

SRS ... it looks an appalling picture.

There were also reports and interviews with an inarticulate, British it has to be said, tourist who'd chosen to contiue their holiday ... along the, absurd I thought, lines echoing post-9/11: "not drinking beer, not sunbathing, not holidaying, and going home would be giving in to (terrorism)global catastrophe .... letting circumstances win" ...
Good (not) to know that nothing will bow the mind, will, or conscience of some.

Sadly, the immediate "uncaring" message of that picture is one shared by some, who bluntly put, "don't give a shit". Let's be thankful, as witnessed by the unilateral, World-wide response from humans of all races, religions and creeds, that they are a minority - probably sitting under a metaphorical bridge with the rest of the race of trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

I hope the people sunbathing in that picture will be identified and have to face the shameful consequences of their lack of compassion. Would you want them as friends or neighbors?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

The consequences of being identified could certainly be far greater for this couple than the apparently insignificant act in itself, but I don't see evidence of any news or commentary site picking up on it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM

It does seem in bad and callous taste, but they are perhaps helping the economy, keeping people employed etc. Some places were hit harder than others and can recover more easily. But for sanitation purposes alone until the beach was totally inspected and declared safe, it seems unwise. For all we know they might adopt some orphans or build a clinic having seen the devestation first hand. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM

Were I there, I would be paying for the same hotel and meals, so the economy wouldn't be injured. But I could never lounge around while such a drastic life-and-death struggle was going on mere feet away. Does her nose go so high in the air that she can't smell the stench around her? Even if there aren't dead people under the heaps, the debris itself will smell bad. Had I paid for such a trip, I would no longer consider it a vacation, but the prospect of its being a life-changing and perhaps ultimately energizing experience is a real possibility. (I should add that I worked for several years as a member of a mountain rescue group, a civil defense organization in my county. By now it's hard-wired in to stop and help. The only possible exeption would be if my children were with me, and their ultimate safety.)

Just food for thought.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM

The woman in the photograph is named Hannah Langdon. She is a theatre nurse from Basingstoke. She and her firefighting husband were holidaying in the area at the time of the tsunami.

Their hotel was destroyed, they were on the beach at the time, and are only left with their beach clothes. Many survivors returning from the disater are arriving at UK airports barefoot and devoid of all possesions.

Hannah and her husband stayed on after their holiday. They both arranged unpaid leave from work. She has been working around the clock attending to the injured. Her husband has been helping to clear debris for the last twenty hours non stop. The photo captures them as they take their first rest for twenty hours.

Of course the above is pure fiction. But it could be true. Don't be too quick to judge?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM

I am truly concerned about the bodies now. Don't read further if this upsets you but I think if found in that heat they couldn't be moved essentially. Is there a way of almost cremating them as they are found? And blasting the sand around them with heat as well? I think we all have to think of these things as who knows what could happen where next. I also wondered about robots etc. that could have scooped up the bodies. I know that some of the cultures over there have a tradition of funeral pyres and others of course don't, but we all have to be willing to sacrifice our own bodies and those of our families in the interest of sanitation etc....we can't wait for the priest to come bless us etc....mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM

Don't be so quick to be an apologist, guest. The above is nonsense and you know it. The woman's handbag is beside her on the bench. She has lost nothing, and apparently has no conscience.

Mary, you've thoughtfully addressed something that the Western news, at least, has tiptoed past. For those who have been involved in search and rescue, it is understood that decomposition happens fast in heat, and moving bodies once they are basically bags of fluid is next to impossible. (Sorry, really, but that is what happens). It must be one of the most horrible jobs in the world to try to deal with death on such a scale. And I would venture that most who are doing the work have never had to do something like this before in their lives.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM

What I find so amazing is that with all this wonderful technology, we can't do SHIT for those poor people. What we should send is bunches of helicopters and a thousand troops on the ground, burning bodies and rubble, for 8 hours/soldier (I use the term soldier loosely, to include anyone in the armed forces. I have a hard time using "troop" in the singular.), all day and all night. In about three days (which is 3 days x 3 shifts x 8 hours x 1000 people = 72,000 individual/hours) we might make a noticeable dent in the problem. Not to mention that if it weren't FOR the technology in the first place, there a) wouldn't be so many people there, and b) there wouldn't be the dependence on the infrastructure that got destroyed. What a trap for thinking beings, as Larry Niven once wrote.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

The impression is that for our politicians - irrespective of where we are living - this has not been seen as the top priority. It's something to get round to, with an eye on doing enough to get critics off our back, but not really important, not on the scale of something happening on our doorstep.

At least the public response has forced our leaders to significantly raise the level of public help, for fear of being outdone and shamed by the response of ordinary people. Not raising it to the kind of level that is appropriate for the scale of this disaster, but at least something.

That is assuming the promises of aid are actually kept - which normally doesn't in fact happen. Money is diverted from one set of starving people to another, aid budgets are used as a way of subsidising   people back home and so forth.

But in any case it isn't just about money - it's the recognition that this is something that needs the level of total committment which would be involved in a World War. It makes most of our previous disasters, natural or manmade look small by comparison.

And the other thing is, once we have done what is needed to repair the wound in humanity which this has caused, we need to look ahead with a new kind of intelligence and committment.

For years we have been warned that up ahead, sooner or laters, there are disasters on thsi scale or bigger waiting for us - but it gets shrugged off, because likely enough it won't happen in our time, in our corner of the world. So every time there is some disaster, we run around bodging up some kind of improvised solution. We turn away from the difficult task of organising a global system that will be able to move into action when needed.

"Globalisation" may be the word of the age, but it seems it stops at imposing that are tailored to the task of making it easier for the rich to take advantage of the poor, all over the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM

Bodies ARE being burned, and I have seen a number of reports that those resorts that are able to clean up enough to function are BEGGING tourists to come back (or stay) and provide some income and jobs for those whose lives have been affected. I have no doubt that there ARE tales of gross insensitivity, but I would not assume that the woman in the picture is 'guilty'...nor would I assume that she would be useful doing anything else than spending money. I have SEEN hurricane & tornado disasters in which it was best to just stay out of the way, unless you had needed expertise.......it's very hard to judge from here...

I saw a very telling interview with a man from, I believe, the World Health Orginaztion, who was being asked "why we didn't do THIS, and whay we didn't do THAT?".....he replied that the decisions, order of responses, and exact nature of aid needed to be determined by "experts on the ground, rather than well-meaning ideas by those who were not 'there'. He cited a story about a disaster a few years ago in which a rumor was started that a meningitis epidemic was spreading, and people were demanding that meningitis vaccine be sent....but the experts CHECKED first, and found NO meningitis, but rather cholera...so they sent soap, rather than useless vaccine.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

I believe families are now being told to stop looking for family members among the dead-- that the dead are no longer identifiable (decomposition?). So in addition to starving and being without water, a fresh tsunami of shock and grief will be kicking in, person by person, group by group. Let's hope they are able to look to some good that IS being done, and not focus on the things that have not yet been done.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

New Lyrics by Lanfranc

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM

I am amazed by the fantastic response of the Brits and Irish people to this disaster, I am sure the rest of the world is doing its part also. The kindness and generosity is touching, the stories of how young and old have played their part in raising money restores your faith in humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM

Here's a very sensible article from The Independent about The lessons that must be learned for the future by an Sri Lankan born English politician who was on holiday there, and saw the wave as it hit, but survived:

...We have all seen the terrible scenes on television, and I have seen many of them in Sri Lanka for myself. Hundreds of foreign holidaymakers have died as well - a dreadful tragedy, but one which has brought the peoples of their home countries together with the peoples of South Asia in a sense of shared suffering and determination. Determination, not to prevent natural disasters, for that is beyond our power, but to make sure that when the next one happens, as it surely will, we are much better prepared....


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,concerned UK
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM

It appears as if many in the Christian and Muslim worlds are at least united in one way. Their paranoia against each other. How unfortunate.

Furthermore, how can personalities and ego's that are thinly veilled in religious or political righteousness be allowed to interfere with the releif effort? Colin Powell orchestrating a united releif effort in addition to the UN's, and some muslim conspiricy theorists even suggesting the USA caused the tsunami!! (Hence the little damage to the Diego Garcia airbase)

People who blame the USA for the tsunami, are as shameless as those in the US administration who see their effort here as a way of gaining brownie points in the Arab world after the mess America has caused in Iraq.

Do ideological differences explain why some Arab nations have contributed so poorly to the effort? Saudia Arabia $10m at the last count!

Are these countries so concerned about being to closely associated with western nations that they would rather give just a token donation, than be seen as collaborating with the USA, and europe? It seems as if the west willingly picks up the tab for much of the releif operation but is still sniped at by muslims who do far less to help and yet take every oportunity to question western values.

Be certain that the individual people of the UK did not, and do not stop to question the religion or ideology the tsunami victims before freely giving as much as they can afford.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM

Kingdom Triples Its Aid for Tsunami Victims

"RIYADH, 5 January 2005 — Saudi Arabia has tripled its assistance to Asia's tsunami victims to $ 30million. Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd directed that the $ 10million donation announced earlier by the Kingdom be raised to $ 30million "in light of the size of the tragedy and the losses" suffered by the countries affected by the disaster, according to the Saudi Press Agency.

King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah have instructed the Saudi Arabian Television to organize a telethon to collect donations for the victims. The telethon will be held tomorrow, Thursday, with phone-in addresses appearing on the screen.

Meanwhile a delegation from the Jeddah-based Islamic Development Bank (IDB) left for Jakarta to participate in tomorrow's summit of world leaders to discuss the scale of disaster and how to rebuild the devastated region.

Many Saudi businessmen and children have donated money and goods to help all the victims of the Asian tsunamis. One leading industrialist, who requested anonymity, told Arab News he had chartered a plane to take tons of aid, disinfectants and detergents to affected areas, while school children have donated their pocket money to help the victims. Three Saudi youths from Jubail are heading to Indonesia to help in the relief effort.

Most Saudis are reluctant to make public their charitable contributions, viewing this as a form of boasting, but many told Arab News they had decided to go public after foreign news stories accused Gulf states of being stingy in responding to the Asian calamity."


I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:05 AM

I think as the world sees the magnitude of the disaster--and the greater disaster to come with millions of people in need of shelter, food, water and medical care, the purse strings will loosen. The Canadian government announced that it will match the contributions of individual Canadians. Our school division has declared this Friday "Tsunami Disaster Relief Day" and students and staff will give as they are able. The money will be forwarded to Ottawa and sent on from there. On January 11, the UN is meeting to deal with the issue of donors and how to best apply the money and help. Seems slow, but the problem is a massive one.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Thank you for the update, Carol. However, this is still well below the level of contributions (adjusted for GDP) from other countries.

Following various PMs, Carol's asked me to clarify my earlier post. It seems that Martin Gibson and others are using it as justification for "Muslims are stingy". That wasn't my intention, and I dislike my posts being used for justifying bigotry. It was imprecise though and so could be read that way.

What I intended to point out was that the governments of the richest Muslim nations (exception: Qatar) are failing to pull their weight. This is not a criticism because they are Muslim, it's a criticism because they're rich and they're not doing anything substantial.

Another intention of that post was about suggestions that Muslims would think better of the US for donating money to Muslim nations hit by the earthquake - I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference when the US is still in Iraq. And a third intention was that I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Muslim community" who could be influenced by US donations to Muslim countries, because the suggestion that all Muslims from Istanbul to Indonesia are "one community" is dangerously simplistic and factually incorrect - I believe the failure of Middle Eastern governments to put significant money in the pot is an example of that.

What I did *not* intend was to say that Muslim individuals are failing to pull their weight. In fact I'm sure they are doing so (see Carol's latest post), because your religion has no bearing on whether you care about people caught in something like this.

By the way, if people have an issue with a post, please PM or post on the thread to ask "did you really mean that?" in reasonable language. I'll gladly correct it, and I'm sure anyone else would too. But for myself, I'll be ignoring anyone calling my posts "bigoted hatemongering" in future, because that is not reasonable language but a personal insult, and I don't do flame wars.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM

Quote from CarolC
"I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims"

Perhaps you'll find this supprising but I agree with you, and my coments were aimed specifically at govormnets and organisations, and certainly not at the unconditional genourosity of individuals everywhere.

My comments regarding the Saudi govornment were correct at the time, and their recent increase in donations is totaly comendable. Thank you for your updated information.

However I was incensed when hearing of the USA conspiracy theory which to me shows how some....people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards ....America!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Concerned UK
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM

Sorry, I forgot to sign off. The previous message ...

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM .....

Was mine. I did not mean to levae it anonymous.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

When making judgemental assertions about the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments with regard to how much money they contribute in situations like this one, it would be useful if we had accurate information about how much of what each country pledges ever actually gets sent. I have been hearing and reading that many countries do not honor their pledges of aid, or only honor a small portion of their committment. So while we are comapring governments and countries (an activity of which I have difficulty seeing the constructive value, other than self aggrandizement and/or promoting a hate agenda), we may just be passing on information that is in no way indicative of just how generous or stingy the governments and countries in question really are.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:12 PM

I should correct my last post with this. Instead of saying...

So while we are comapring governments and countries

It should say...

So while we are comapring the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments and countries in the context of a tragedy such as this one


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

That certainly is a fair point, Carol, especially considering the US was nearly booted out of UN decision-making recently for failing to pay its dues. Difficult to get that info though.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM

A dollar from an impoverished person is more than a dollar from a wealthy person. Doesn't buy more, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM

From today's Independent:£2.2bn pledged: but will the world deliver this time?

Recent Disasters

HURRICANE, Central America 1998

Pledged: £4.8bn

Delivered: £1.6bn

FLOODS, Mozambique 2000

Pledged: £214m

Delivered: £107m

EARTHQUAKE, Bam, Iran 2003

Pledged: £17.1m

Delivered: £9.5m


And that is leaving aside the other ways governements cheat. For example, they use the aid money to pay their own people for goods and services, instead of local people, and they rack up the notional cost of surpluses they had stacked up as a way of subsidising sections of their own economy; and they make up for the cost of helping one lot of people by reducing the help they were giving to some other people who probably need it just as badly, but aren't in the headlines.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Seems a little small minded to post this !! Just to say - - -


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Two Bloody hundred !


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,John O'l;ennaine
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:31 PM

Reasons to feel proud of being an Australian have been fairly thin on the ground in recent years, but I am today proud to tell you that last night the three commercial free-to-air television networks jointly hosted a telethon for three and a half hours, during which Australian individuals and companies pledged more than $15 million.

Prior to that the total donated by Australians was already $110 million.

The government has pledged $1 billion.

My 7 yr-old son and 10 yr-old daughter have been busking for the last three days and raised $200.

Proud today.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM

That is quite something. I imagine that the idea of the beach suddenly becoming a scene of total devastation and death must have especially hit home in Australia.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:24 PM

A friend sent this link. There are 14 distinct images, each reached by using the "next" or "prev" links. While on each page, use the "Before" or "After" button to compare the landscape. It's astonishing how the landscape was in some cases literally scraped bare. People simply didn't have a chance.

http://homepage.mac.com/demark/tsunami/

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 04:38 PM

That's frightening - like so many Hiroshimas.

I've found that every tiem I see a shot of a beach or the seaside now, the images of the tidal wave and its devastation vecomes inescapable. The same way I can't see a low flying big aeroplane without thinking of September 11th, especially if it passes begind a building.

Such images have lost their innocence, for a generation.

We got a brochure through the post with all these adverts for holidays in Sri Lanka and Thailand, all put together just a few weeks ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM

SRS -
Powerful images. An aid in trying to imagine the unimaginable.
We saw some "new" footage on TV last night of the water coming through a town in Aceh "some kilometers from the coast".
The water was up to the level of the ceilings on the ground floor, and so thick with rubble you couldn't always see the water at all - just a fluid mass of building materials, trees etc. flowing between the buildings, in the channels where the streets used to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

I saw something like that also. How to run ahead of or swim in such a dense miasma of debris? I heard one survivor say that he was lucky to have been near the beach, where he was hit by only water. After those images his words make more sense.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:36 AM

"I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Christians"

Would we have thought such a sentence appropriate as a comment to several GUEST posts criticising the action of the US government? I guess not.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Once again, Wolfgang, I will point out to you the fact that someone else took care of making that point before I even read the posts criticizing the US. You may be a big fan of ten or fifty people all posting the same thing in a row, but I am not. If someone else makes the point before me, I see no reason to add yet another comment that says essentially the same thing.

Prior to making my post, I noted that no one else had already made my point.

So fuck off, Wolfgang. Stop following me around and making the same stupid sniping remarks over and over and over and over and over. You are entirely incapable of learning anything whatever, no matter how many times I repeat the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

When people use criticisms of the US government as a way of sniping at Christians in general, more especially in parts of the world where Christians are a vulnerable minority, yes that is appalling, Wolfgang.

The sad thing is that, when the people in power use a distorted version of the majority religion in their as camouflage for power politics and aggrandisement, that does have a knock on effect of playing into the hands of people who will use that as a way of attacking that religion, and harassing its adherents in other parts of the world. That is just as true whether the case in point is the USA, Saudi Arabia or Israel. (Among many other examples that could be cited.)


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM

Interesting point, McGrath. I actually don't associate the United States with any particular religion, including Christianity, so that part of Wolfgang's petty little snipe was lost on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

Carol,

my point was not the content of your remark (that's ok with me), but the language and the expression. I know from reading this thread that others had already made that point regarding the USA. Had they made that general point using the words as in my quote I would have strongly objected.

McGrath sees rightly why reading your sentence, Carol, I cringed:

Criticising a country (or its government), even if the majority in this country has one faith, is and should never be an attack upon the faith. Criticising the USA is not spreading hate against Christians and criticising SA (for instance) is not spreading hate against Muslims.

That's where I wanted to point your attention to.

I'd prefer you to answer me in more polite language, but there is no way I can influence the way how yxou like to express yourself.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM

Wolfgang, both of the people I was responding to specifically mentioned Muslims and not just governments. At least the wording in their posts did that. Grab has since said that although his wording reads like that, it was not his intention for it to read that way.

Here is what I first objected to:

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own.

No distinction is made in this statement between governments, and Muslims generally. In fact, the term "Muslim community" cannot mean anything other than all Muslims. Then concerned UK made it about Muslims with this statement:

It appears as if many in the Christian and Muslim worlds are at least united in one way. Their paranoia against each other.

Your track record of either misinterpreting, or just flat out distorting what I say is really appalling. Either you need to start reading much more carefully, or you need to stop trying to communicate complex ideas in English. Either way, I would like you to stop following me around and making outrageous mischaracterizations of what I say. And stop being such an asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM

Clearly I'll have to go back and catch up with this thread.

I actually don't associate the United States with any particular religion, including Christianity,

You're not in a unique position if you don't see this as a christian country, CarolC, because when you live in the middle of a culture, seeing it through other's eyes is a challenge. Philosophers and other scholars will point out that this dominant religion is embedded in the language, in the laws, in the traditions and in the architecture. It has severely encroached on privacy and has to be beated back all of the time. That's why non-christians struggle so mightily to try to keep the church out of government and private choices and lives.

I think it was yesterday, maybe early this morning, on NPR I heard an interview and discussion of this very topic, to do with the tsunami. How can religious organizations help, ala NGOs, in places where they are distrusted because the local view is that they're there just to prostelytize? There are religiously-based groups working hard to prevent that from happening, trying to rein in the others.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

Interesting points, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

Well, it could Carol, since I didn't mean for it to mean that! But anyway, we've been there, done that.

As an off-topic aside, you may not personally see the US as a Christian country. But in the eyes of the rest of the world, it has a reputation for being strongly Christian, with a very powerful fundamentalist lobby (from which the current President has drawn his power base) who interpret "one nation under God" to mean the Christian God. In this way it is not too different from Israel, for example.

Graham.

PS. You could still get better results by not insulting people first post out of the door...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

"this dominant religion is embedded in the language"..."

For example, when Bush came out with that stuff about the fight against terror being "a crusade" - I doubt if he had any idea when he put it that way that it would be seen as highly provocative and insulting, but it was, and it played right into the hands of Al Qa'eda, and has contributed to Americans dying. He should have, of course, and I think that most people in that kind of job would have had the sense not to say that. I imagine his minders must have had their head in their hands when they heard it.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:23 PM

Grab, Wolfgang and I have been going 'round and 'round this one for years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt a long, long time ago. He no longer has the benefit of the doubt with me. You, on the other hand, still have the benefit of the doubt with me, but you could eventually lose it if you continue to distort what I have said.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:39 AM

What's this "continue to distort" thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

Carol,

I don't follow you around, we just happen to read sometimes the same threads. If I read something I feel I might comment upon I do, even if it is a post from you. And I shall do so in future. I wish you'd try to read that without paranoid thoughts. And save the strong words for Martin, he may appreciate them.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

I don't think so, Wolfgang. You have indicated you will continue as you have been doing. I will continue as I have been doing also.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:55 PM

Over 100,000 are still missing according to a news report today. The Red Cross has reached its goal and will no longer solicit funds specifically for tsunami disaster aid. The tourism industry was destroyed both by damage to resorts and loss of service personnel. There are plans to offer free airfares, overnights, etc to lure tourists back in. The Australians seem to be in the forefront, volunteers are clearing debris and helping rebuild.

Just a friendly reminder - this will not go away for years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,-me-
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

i am so confused


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

From Relief International:
"Aid is still direly needed in the region even twenty two months after the disaster, with hundreds of thousands people still displaced. Although the latest report from the UN Special Envoy for Tsunami Recovery shows that Indonesia has made progress to reopen or rebuild health care facilities, Sri Lanka lags behind with less than half of its health care facilities reopened or reconstructed.

Direct Relief has furnished over $55.5 million in direct aid to tsunami-affected areas since December 2004, including $44.7 million in medical material aid and $10.7 million in targeted cash grants. Direct Relief is committed to supporting those affected by the tsunami for as long as necessary and ensuring that they have the proper tools and resources to ensure public health in the long term. "


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