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BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death

SINSULL 19 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,-me- 06 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM
SINSULL 01 Feb 05 - 01:55 PM
CarolC 16 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM
Wolfgang 16 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM
Grab 14 Jan 05 - 10:39 AM
CarolC 13 Jan 05 - 03:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM
Grab 13 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM
CarolC 13 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 13 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM
CarolC 12 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 12 Jan 05 - 09:36 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 10 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jan 05 - 04:38 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jan 05 - 08:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,John O'l;ennaine 08 Jan 05 - 07:31 PM
Leadfingers 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM
Leadfingers 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM
Grab 07 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 05 - 03:12 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Concerned UK 06 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM
GUEST 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM
Grab 06 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM
Peace 06 Jan 05 - 12:05 AM
CarolC 05 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,concerned UK 05 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM
ard mhacha 03 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM
wysiwyg 03 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM
Bill D 03 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Mrr at work 03 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM
mg 02 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM
mg 02 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM
dianavan 02 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

From Relief International:
"Aid is still direly needed in the region even twenty two months after the disaster, with hundreds of thousands people still displaced. Although the latest report from the UN Special Envoy for Tsunami Recovery shows that Indonesia has made progress to reopen or rebuild health care facilities, Sri Lanka lags behind with less than half of its health care facilities reopened or reconstructed.

Direct Relief has furnished over $55.5 million in direct aid to tsunami-affected areas since December 2004, including $44.7 million in medical material aid and $10.7 million in targeted cash grants. Direct Relief is committed to supporting those affected by the tsunami for as long as necessary and ensuring that they have the proper tools and resources to ensure public health in the long term. "


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,-me-
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

i am so confused


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:55 PM

Over 100,000 are still missing according to a news report today. The Red Cross has reached its goal and will no longer solicit funds specifically for tsunami disaster aid. The tourism industry was destroyed both by damage to resorts and loss of service personnel. There are plans to offer free airfares, overnights, etc to lure tourists back in. The Australians seem to be in the forefront, volunteers are clearing debris and helping rebuild.

Just a friendly reminder - this will not go away for years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

I don't think so, Wolfgang. You have indicated you will continue as you have been doing. I will continue as I have been doing also.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

Carol,

I don't follow you around, we just happen to read sometimes the same threads. If I read something I feel I might comment upon I do, even if it is a post from you. And I shall do so in future. I wish you'd try to read that without paranoid thoughts. And save the strong words for Martin, he may appreciate them.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:39 AM

What's this "continue to distort" thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:23 PM

Grab, Wolfgang and I have been going 'round and 'round this one for years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt a long, long time ago. He no longer has the benefit of the doubt with me. You, on the other hand, still have the benefit of the doubt with me, but you could eventually lose it if you continue to distort what I have said.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

"this dominant religion is embedded in the language"..."

For example, when Bush came out with that stuff about the fight against terror being "a crusade" - I doubt if he had any idea when he put it that way that it would be seen as highly provocative and insulting, but it was, and it played right into the hands of Al Qa'eda, and has contributed to Americans dying. He should have, of course, and I think that most people in that kind of job would have had the sense not to say that. I imagine his minders must have had their head in their hands when they heard it.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

Well, it could Carol, since I didn't mean for it to mean that! But anyway, we've been there, done that.

As an off-topic aside, you may not personally see the US as a Christian country. But in the eyes of the rest of the world, it has a reputation for being strongly Christian, with a very powerful fundamentalist lobby (from which the current President has drawn his power base) who interpret "one nation under God" to mean the Christian God. In this way it is not too different from Israel, for example.

Graham.

PS. You could still get better results by not insulting people first post out of the door...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

Interesting points, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM

Clearly I'll have to go back and catch up with this thread.

I actually don't associate the United States with any particular religion, including Christianity,

You're not in a unique position if you don't see this as a christian country, CarolC, because when you live in the middle of a culture, seeing it through other's eyes is a challenge. Philosophers and other scholars will point out that this dominant religion is embedded in the language, in the laws, in the traditions and in the architecture. It has severely encroached on privacy and has to be beated back all of the time. That's why non-christians struggle so mightily to try to keep the church out of government and private choices and lives.

I think it was yesterday, maybe early this morning, on NPR I heard an interview and discussion of this very topic, to do with the tsunami. How can religious organizations help, ala NGOs, in places where they are distrusted because the local view is that they're there just to prostelytize? There are religiously-based groups working hard to prevent that from happening, trying to rein in the others.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM

Wolfgang, both of the people I was responding to specifically mentioned Muslims and not just governments. At least the wording in their posts did that. Grab has since said that although his wording reads like that, it was not his intention for it to read that way.

Here is what I first objected to:

As far as sums of money go though, check this one out. As far as impressing the Muslim community - yeah right, see what the Muslim community does for its own.

No distinction is made in this statement between governments, and Muslims generally. In fact, the term "Muslim community" cannot mean anything other than all Muslims. Then concerned UK made it about Muslims with this statement:

It appears as if many in the Christian and Muslim worlds are at least united in one way. Their paranoia against each other.

Your track record of either misinterpreting, or just flat out distorting what I say is really appalling. Either you need to start reading much more carefully, or you need to stop trying to communicate complex ideas in English. Either way, I would like you to stop following me around and making outrageous mischaracterizations of what I say. And stop being such an asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

Carol,

my point was not the content of your remark (that's ok with me), but the language and the expression. I know from reading this thread that others had already made that point regarding the USA. Had they made that general point using the words as in my quote I would have strongly objected.

McGrath sees rightly why reading your sentence, Carol, I cringed:

Criticising a country (or its government), even if the majority in this country has one faith, is and should never be an attack upon the faith. Criticising the USA is not spreading hate against Christians and criticising SA (for instance) is not spreading hate against Muslims.

That's where I wanted to point your attention to.

I'd prefer you to answer me in more polite language, but there is no way I can influence the way how yxou like to express yourself.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM

Interesting point, McGrath. I actually don't associate the United States with any particular religion, including Christianity, so that part of Wolfgang's petty little snipe was lost on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

When people use criticisms of the US government as a way of sniping at Christians in general, more especially in parts of the world where Christians are a vulnerable minority, yes that is appalling, Wolfgang.

The sad thing is that, when the people in power use a distorted version of the majority religion in their as camouflage for power politics and aggrandisement, that does have a knock on effect of playing into the hands of people who will use that as a way of attacking that religion, and harassing its adherents in other parts of the world. That is just as true whether the case in point is the USA, Saudi Arabia or Israel. (Among many other examples that could be cited.)


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Once again, Wolfgang, I will point out to you the fact that someone else took care of making that point before I even read the posts criticizing the US. You may be a big fan of ten or fifty people all posting the same thing in a row, but I am not. If someone else makes the point before me, I see no reason to add yet another comment that says essentially the same thing.

Prior to making my post, I noted that no one else had already made my point.

So fuck off, Wolfgang. Stop following me around and making the same stupid sniping remarks over and over and over and over and over. You are entirely incapable of learning anything whatever, no matter how many times I repeat the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:36 AM

"I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Christians"

Would we have thought such a sentence appropriate as a comment to several GUEST posts criticising the action of the US government? I guess not.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

I saw something like that also. How to run ahead of or swim in such a dense miasma of debris? I heard one survivor say that he was lucky to have been near the beach, where he was hit by only water. After those images his words make more sense.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 05:03 PM

SRS -
Powerful images. An aid in trying to imagine the unimaginable.
We saw some "new" footage on TV last night of the water coming through a town in Aceh "some kilometers from the coast".
The water was up to the level of the ceilings on the ground floor, and so thick with rubble you couldn't always see the water at all - just a fluid mass of building materials, trees etc. flowing between the buildings, in the channels where the streets used to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 04:38 PM

That's frightening - like so many Hiroshimas.

I've found that every tiem I see a shot of a beach or the seaside now, the images of the tidal wave and its devastation vecomes inescapable. The same way I can't see a low flying big aeroplane without thinking of September 11th, especially if it passes begind a building.

Such images have lost their innocence, for a generation.

We got a brochure through the post with all these adverts for holidays in Sri Lanka and Thailand, all put together just a few weeks ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:24 PM

A friend sent this link. There are 14 distinct images, each reached by using the "next" or "prev" links. While on each page, use the "Before" or "After" button to compare the landscape. It's astonishing how the landscape was in some cases literally scraped bare. People simply didn't have a chance.

http://homepage.mac.com/demark/tsunami/

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM

That is quite something. I imagine that the idea of the beach suddenly becoming a scene of total devastation and death must have especially hit home in Australia.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,John O'l;ennaine
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:31 PM

Reasons to feel proud of being an Australian have been fairly thin on the ground in recent years, but I am today proud to tell you that last night the three commercial free-to-air television networks jointly hosted a telethon for three and a half hours, during which Australian individuals and companies pledged more than $15 million.

Prior to that the total donated by Australians was already $110 million.

The government has pledged $1 billion.

My 7 yr-old son and 10 yr-old daughter have been busking for the last three days and raised $200.

Proud today.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Two Bloody hundred !


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Seems a little small minded to post this !! Just to say - - -


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM

From today's Independent:£2.2bn pledged: but will the world deliver this time?

Recent Disasters

HURRICANE, Central America 1998

Pledged: £4.8bn

Delivered: £1.6bn

FLOODS, Mozambique 2000

Pledged: £214m

Delivered: £107m

EARTHQUAKE, Bam, Iran 2003

Pledged: £17.1m

Delivered: £9.5m


And that is leaving aside the other ways governements cheat. For example, they use the aid money to pay their own people for goods and services, instead of local people, and they rack up the notional cost of surpluses they had stacked up as a way of subsidising sections of their own economy; and they make up for the cost of helping one lot of people by reducing the help they were giving to some other people who probably need it just as badly, but aren't in the headlines.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM

A dollar from an impoverished person is more than a dollar from a wealthy person. Doesn't buy more, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

That certainly is a fair point, Carol, especially considering the US was nearly booted out of UN decision-making recently for failing to pay its dues. Difficult to get that info though.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:12 PM

I should correct my last post with this. Instead of saying...

So while we are comapring governments and countries

It should say...

So while we are comapring the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments and countries in the context of a tragedy such as this one


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

When making judgemental assertions about the relative generosity and/or stinginess of various governments with regard to how much money they contribute in situations like this one, it would be useful if we had accurate information about how much of what each country pledges ever actually gets sent. I have been hearing and reading that many countries do not honor their pledges of aid, or only honor a small portion of their committment. So while we are comapring governments and countries (an activity of which I have difficulty seeing the constructive value, other than self aggrandizement and/or promoting a hate agenda), we may just be passing on information that is in no way indicative of just how generous or stingy the governments and countries in question really are.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Concerned UK
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM

Sorry, I forgot to sign off. The previous message ...

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM .....

Was mine. I did not mean to levae it anonymous.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM

Quote from CarolC
"I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims"

Perhaps you'll find this supprising but I agree with you, and my coments were aimed specifically at govormnets and organisations, and certainly not at the unconditional genourosity of individuals everywhere.

My comments regarding the Saudi govornment were correct at the time, and their recent increase in donations is totaly comendable. Thank you for your updated information.

However I was incensed when hearing of the USA conspiracy theory which to me shows how some....people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards ....America!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Thank you for the update, Carol. However, this is still well below the level of contributions (adjusted for GDP) from other countries.

Following various PMs, Carol's asked me to clarify my earlier post. It seems that Martin Gibson and others are using it as justification for "Muslims are stingy". That wasn't my intention, and I dislike my posts being used for justifying bigotry. It was imprecise though and so could be read that way.

What I intended to point out was that the governments of the richest Muslim nations (exception: Qatar) are failing to pull their weight. This is not a criticism because they are Muslim, it's a criticism because they're rich and they're not doing anything substantial.

Another intention of that post was about suggestions that Muslims would think better of the US for donating money to Muslim nations hit by the earthquake - I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference when the US is still in Iraq. And a third intention was that I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Muslim community" who could be influenced by US donations to Muslim countries, because the suggestion that all Muslims from Istanbul to Indonesia are "one community" is dangerously simplistic and factually incorrect - I believe the failure of Middle Eastern governments to put significant money in the pot is an example of that.

What I did *not* intend was to say that Muslim individuals are failing to pull their weight. In fact I'm sure they are doing so (see Carol's latest post), because your religion has no bearing on whether you care about people caught in something like this.

By the way, if people have an issue with a post, please PM or post on the thread to ask "did you really mean that?" in reasonable language. I'll gladly correct it, and I'm sure anyone else would too. But for myself, I'll be ignoring anyone calling my posts "bigoted hatemongering" in future, because that is not reasonable language but a personal insult, and I don't do flame wars.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:05 AM

I think as the world sees the magnitude of the disaster--and the greater disaster to come with millions of people in need of shelter, food, water and medical care, the purse strings will loosen. The Canadian government announced that it will match the contributions of individual Canadians. Our school division has declared this Friday "Tsunami Disaster Relief Day" and students and staff will give as they are able. The money will be forwarded to Ottawa and sent on from there. On January 11, the UN is meeting to deal with the issue of donors and how to best apply the money and help. Seems slow, but the problem is a massive one.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM

Kingdom Triples Its Aid for Tsunami Victims

"RIYADH, 5 January 2005 — Saudi Arabia has tripled its assistance to Asia's tsunami victims to $ 30million. Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd directed that the $ 10million donation announced earlier by the Kingdom be raised to $ 30million "in light of the size of the tragedy and the losses" suffered by the countries affected by the disaster, according to the Saudi Press Agency.

King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah have instructed the Saudi Arabian Television to organize a telethon to collect donations for the victims. The telethon will be held tomorrow, Thursday, with phone-in addresses appearing on the screen.

Meanwhile a delegation from the Jeddah-based Islamic Development Bank (IDB) left for Jakarta to participate in tomorrow's summit of world leaders to discuss the scale of disaster and how to rebuild the devastated region.

Many Saudi businessmen and children have donated money and goods to help all the victims of the Asian tsunamis. One leading industrialist, who requested anonymity, told Arab News he had chartered a plane to take tons of aid, disinfectants and detergents to affected areas, while school children have donated their pocket money to help the victims. Three Saudi youths from Jubail are heading to Indonesia to help in the relief effort.

Most Saudis are reluctant to make public their charitable contributions, viewing this as a form of boasting, but many told Arab News they had decided to go public after foreign news stories accused Gulf states of being stingy in responding to the Asian calamity."


I still find it appalling that people are using this tragedy as an opportunity to spread misinformation and hatred towards Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,concerned UK
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM

It appears as if many in the Christian and Muslim worlds are at least united in one way. Their paranoia against each other. How unfortunate.

Furthermore, how can personalities and ego's that are thinly veilled in religious or political righteousness be allowed to interfere with the releif effort? Colin Powell orchestrating a united releif effort in addition to the UN's, and some muslim conspiricy theorists even suggesting the USA caused the tsunami!! (Hence the little damage to the Diego Garcia airbase)

People who blame the USA for the tsunami, are as shameless as those in the US administration who see their effort here as a way of gaining brownie points in the Arab world after the mess America has caused in Iraq.

Do ideological differences explain why some Arab nations have contributed so poorly to the effort? Saudia Arabia $10m at the last count!

Are these countries so concerned about being to closely associated with western nations that they would rather give just a token donation, than be seen as collaborating with the USA, and europe? It seems as if the west willingly picks up the tab for much of the releif operation but is still sniped at by muslims who do far less to help and yet take every oportunity to question western values.

Be certain that the individual people of the UK did not, and do not stop to question the religion or ideology the tsunami victims before freely giving as much as they can afford.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM

Here's a very sensible article from The Independent about The lessons that must be learned for the future by an Sri Lankan born English politician who was on holiday there, and saw the wave as it hit, but survived:

...We have all seen the terrible scenes on television, and I have seen many of them in Sri Lanka for myself. Hundreds of foreign holidaymakers have died as well - a dreadful tragedy, but one which has brought the peoples of their home countries together with the peoples of South Asia in a sense of shared suffering and determination. Determination, not to prevent natural disasters, for that is beyond our power, but to make sure that when the next one happens, as it surely will, we are much better prepared....


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM

I am amazed by the fantastic response of the Brits and Irish people to this disaster, I am sure the rest of the world is doing its part also. The kindness and generosity is touching, the stories of how young and old have played their part in raising money restores your faith in humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

New Lyrics by Lanfranc

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

I believe families are now being told to stop looking for family members among the dead-- that the dead are no longer identifiable (decomposition?). So in addition to starving and being without water, a fresh tsunami of shock and grief will be kicking in, person by person, group by group. Let's hope they are able to look to some good that IS being done, and not focus on the things that have not yet been done.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM

Bodies ARE being burned, and I have seen a number of reports that those resorts that are able to clean up enough to function are BEGGING tourists to come back (or stay) and provide some income and jobs for those whose lives have been affected. I have no doubt that there ARE tales of gross insensitivity, but I would not assume that the woman in the picture is 'guilty'...nor would I assume that she would be useful doing anything else than spending money. I have SEEN hurricane & tornado disasters in which it was best to just stay out of the way, unless you had needed expertise.......it's very hard to judge from here...

I saw a very telling interview with a man from, I believe, the World Health Orginaztion, who was being asked "why we didn't do THIS, and whay we didn't do THAT?".....he replied that the decisions, order of responses, and exact nature of aid needed to be determined by "experts on the ground, rather than well-meaning ideas by those who were not 'there'. He cited a story about a disaster a few years ago in which a rumor was started that a meningitis epidemic was spreading, and people were demanding that meningitis vaccine be sent....but the experts CHECKED first, and found NO meningitis, but rather cholera...so they sent soap, rather than useless vaccine.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

The impression is that for our politicians - irrespective of where we are living - this has not been seen as the top priority. It's something to get round to, with an eye on doing enough to get critics off our back, but not really important, not on the scale of something happening on our doorstep.

At least the public response has forced our leaders to significantly raise the level of public help, for fear of being outdone and shamed by the response of ordinary people. Not raising it to the kind of level that is appropriate for the scale of this disaster, but at least something.

That is assuming the promises of aid are actually kept - which normally doesn't in fact happen. Money is diverted from one set of starving people to another, aid budgets are used as a way of subsidising   people back home and so forth.

But in any case it isn't just about money - it's the recognition that this is something that needs the level of total committment which would be involved in a World War. It makes most of our previous disasters, natural or manmade look small by comparison.

And the other thing is, once we have done what is needed to repair the wound in humanity which this has caused, we need to look ahead with a new kind of intelligence and committment.

For years we have been warned that up ahead, sooner or laters, there are disasters on thsi scale or bigger waiting for us - but it gets shrugged off, because likely enough it won't happen in our time, in our corner of the world. So every time there is some disaster, we run around bodging up some kind of improvised solution. We turn away from the difficult task of organising a global system that will be able to move into action when needed.

"Globalisation" may be the word of the age, but it seems it stops at imposing that are tailored to the task of making it easier for the rich to take advantage of the poor, all over the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM

What I find so amazing is that with all this wonderful technology, we can't do SHIT for those poor people. What we should send is bunches of helicopters and a thousand troops on the ground, burning bodies and rubble, for 8 hours/soldier (I use the term soldier loosely, to include anyone in the armed forces. I have a hard time using "troop" in the singular.), all day and all night. In about three days (which is 3 days x 3 shifts x 8 hours x 1000 people = 72,000 individual/hours) we might make a noticeable dent in the problem. Not to mention that if it weren't FOR the technology in the first place, there a) wouldn't be so many people there, and b) there wouldn't be the dependence on the infrastructure that got destroyed. What a trap for thinking beings, as Larry Niven once wrote.


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM

Don't be so quick to be an apologist, guest. The above is nonsense and you know it. The woman's handbag is beside her on the bench. She has lost nothing, and apparently has no conscience.

Mary, you've thoughtfully addressed something that the Western news, at least, has tiptoed past. For those who have been involved in search and rescue, it is understood that decomposition happens fast in heat, and moving bodies once they are basically bags of fluid is next to impossible. (Sorry, really, but that is what happens). It must be one of the most horrible jobs in the world to try to deal with death on such a scale. And I would venture that most who are doing the work have never had to do something like this before in their lives.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM

I am truly concerned about the bodies now. Don't read further if this upsets you but I think if found in that heat they couldn't be moved essentially. Is there a way of almost cremating them as they are found? And blasting the sand around them with heat as well? I think we all have to think of these things as who knows what could happen where next. I also wondered about robots etc. that could have scooped up the bodies. I know that some of the cultures over there have a tradition of funeral pyres and others of course don't, but we all have to be willing to sacrifice our own bodies and those of our families in the interest of sanitation etc....we can't wait for the priest to come bless us etc....mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM

The woman in the photograph is named Hannah Langdon. She is a theatre nurse from Basingstoke. She and her firefighting husband were holidaying in the area at the time of the tsunami.

Their hotel was destroyed, they were on the beach at the time, and are only left with their beach clothes. Many survivors returning from the disater are arriving at UK airports barefoot and devoid of all possesions.

Hannah and her husband stayed on after their holiday. They both arranged unpaid leave from work. She has been working around the clock attending to the injured. Her husband has been helping to clear debris for the last twenty hours non stop. The photo captures them as they take their first rest for twenty hours.

Of course the above is pure fiction. But it could be true. Don't be too quick to judge?


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM

Were I there, I would be paying for the same hotel and meals, so the economy wouldn't be injured. But I could never lounge around while such a drastic life-and-death struggle was going on mere feet away. Does her nose go so high in the air that she can't smell the stench around her? Even if there aren't dead people under the heaps, the debris itself will smell bad. Had I paid for such a trip, I would no longer consider it a vacation, but the prospect of its being a life-changing and perhaps ultimately energizing experience is a real possibility. (I should add that I worked for several years as a member of a mountain rescue group, a civil defense organization in my county. By now it's hard-wired in to stop and help. The only possible exeption would be if my children were with me, and their ultimate safety.)

Just food for thought.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM

It does seem in bad and callous taste, but they are perhaps helping the economy, keeping people employed etc. Some places were hit harder than others and can recover more easily. But for sanitation purposes alone until the beach was totally inspected and declared safe, it seems unwise. For all we know they might adopt some orphans or build a clinic having seen the devestation first hand. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

The consequences of being identified could certainly be far greater for this couple than the apparently insignificant act in itself, but I don't see evidence of any news or commentary site picking up on it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

I hope the people sunbathing in that picture will be identified and have to face the shameful consequences of their lack of compassion. Would you want them as friends or neighbors?


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