composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?

Subject: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Suzy T.
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:50 AM

Has anyone been to any folk festivals or music camps or other largish (more than 100 people) gatherings where composting toilets were used (versus plastic porta-potties)? I am interested in hearing how these work out when used for a large group over a short period of time. I know this is only marginally a music question, but it is relevant to those who are involved with such gatherings!

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:09 AM

I've been to a private gathering in a wood where we used an earth closet. It's fine for small gatherings in land not used for anything other than growing things.

Human excrement is not really suitable for 'fertilising' high use areas such as playing fields. It's something to do with the meat content of the diet. Omnivourous and herbivourous diets are OK, the vegetable matter breaks down and becomes good bacteria, but carnivourous poop has entirely the wrong sort of bacteria. If you have cats that poop in the garden, you'll know, there is a barren patch where they go and little piles of poop that don't break down for ages. And then there is the risk of disease from bad bacteria that haven't broken down. There are several illnesses that can be passed on through contact with various sorts of poop, so it's very important to have a deep enough drop and enough spare soil to put on top.

The right kind of paper must be used too.. The cheap, hard, shiny stuff (usually branded as Bronco or Izal) is not suitable. It doesn't absorb moisture and it doesn't degrade quickly enough. Tissue is better, but make sure it's a recycled, unbleached tissue - it won't have so many chemicals in it.

There are commercially available composting toilets, but I seems to remember it's all stored and taken away to be processed.... maybe it was just the brand I saw. They seem to do this sort of thing with less embarassment and more consideration in Europe.

On the whole, unless you have a sponsor who is willing to pay extra for composting toilets, it's not a good idea for a large amount of people to use them over a short period of time. Small gatherings in low traffic areas (arable or livestock farming, waste ground) are fine with a suitably built earth closet, but large gatherings need more and that starts to get difficult.

Another thing you'd have to take into consideration if you go for the composting variety, local health and safety by-laws. There are strict regulations for the managment of human waste. I suspect that the already more expensive composting toilets will suddenly become totally unaffordable once the local councils get involved... unless of course, you have one of these incredibly rare local councils that are eager to help people recycle and conserve.

Good luck with your search though... it's great that there are still people who think that far ahead about recycling and conservation.

LTS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:32 AM

Actually, this is an urban myth. These composting toilets do work well, but you must check to see what the manufacturers recommend as far as frequency of use. There is nothing wrong with human poop in comparison to others, but it must be handled properly. Many places have used human waste, after it has been properly handled, to fertilize everything, including food. Japan, for instance.

SRS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:07 AM

At Whitlebury a couple of years ago we gents were invited to use a manure heap as a urinal, thereby adding valuable nitrogen to the product

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:39 AM

I noticed when our cats poohed in the garden, if they didn't cover it up, as you say it didn't degrade, & shortish stalks of some sort of fungus grew on it, like long thin toadstools with a tiny head.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM

SRS the countries that use human waste as a fertiliser, are countries where they don't eat a lot of meat, read what LTS wrote about the problem.
Giok

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: GUEST,jennifer
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

The Ecofest at Red Hill up in the Lincolnshire was on a site with a row of composting toilets. There was a queue for the malodorus, besprinkled chemical loos and I was delighted to use the alternative! But I've no idea how well they coped. FWIW, the ideal for ordinary compost heaps is often held to be loading it all up in one go rather than adding bits now and again. The Centre For Alternative Technology might be able to give more detailed guidance.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:23 PM

We've covered this before in other threads. What was eaten isn't a problem when the waste is composted. There are companies that compost zoo poo, for example, and in with the elephants and camels goes the waste from the big cats and other carnivores. It's not because there is less carnivore waste that it is used, it's because when it comes to treating this in this way it doesn't matter what was eaten.

SRS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:27 PM

I should add that there are other types of toilets, not just composting toilets, that might be considered for this kind of venue. Some of them have a setup for quick drying and burning of waste. A friend who lives out in the rural west (U.S.) has one of these--he said the main problems with his are when people arrive who don't pay attention to the instructions on how to use it. If that is the case, then you need a very savvy crowd to keep the enviro-toilet up and running.

SRS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

Having done some extended testing on composting toilets, I can only say that they are NOT suitable for the kind of heavy-load-in-a-short-time that's apt to occur at festivals. They need time fo process the waste.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

Does bear s**t in the woods, or does he use a composting toilet? The mind boggles...

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: open mike
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:07 PM

check for incinerators...Incin-o-let
or bio-let...
http://www.biolet.com/
here is a discussion from mother earth news
debating composting vs incineration toilets
http://www.motherearthnews.com/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=820
and if yu are ready to ;lunk down $3000 here it is'
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=701

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:16 PM

Subject line makes for an interesting address to feed to the Spammers....

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:30 PM

When my husband worked at the Integral Urban House in Berkeley, CA, about 25 years ago, they had a composting toilet that was designed to support a family of four. It took three years for the contents to compost completely, and the resulting fertilizer could only be used on trees or non-food crops. As Dick says, it doesn't seem like it would work for something short-term like a festival.

The city of Milwaukee used to sell a fertilizer called Milorganite, made from the finest products of Milwaukee's sewers, suitably composted and sterilized. I don't know if it's still available or not, but I believe it was also recommended for things like lawns.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:39 PM

Are ya from Milwaukee, then, Melani? I am and I too have wondered if Milorganite is still available. Milorganite stands for Milwaukee Organic Nitrate and not only was Milwaukee's sewage treatment plant able to produce a salable fertilizer but the plant (on Jones Island) was capable of pumping clean water back into Lake Michigan. Local sensibilities kept this from happening, unfortunately. I believe that the methane gas created was also used.

I have been researching composting toilets for use at a small self sustaining "vilage" being quietly assembled down in the Ozarks. There is a limit as to how many people may regularly use such a device and count on it producing a desirable product. Envirolet has a model that can handle the waste from a family of seven. They sell both a waterless version and one that requires water. The waterless version is the cheapest, around $2,000. Seems high until one realizes that it is a one time expense and the least intrusive ecologically speaking. Water is not a problem for the site but not having to use any is certainly a plus.

CB

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 02:01 AM

Sounds like a good program in Milwaukee.

I went looking for more information about the toilets set up in the remote areas in Texas State Parks, since alternative sorts of toilets have been in use for a long time in this part of the system. They have interpretive information about these toilets, but apparently nothing is posted online. They use solar power to speed the process in some way, but it has been a long time since I was there to view these commodes and the attendant information. I suspect these are still too slow; an incinerator program might suit, if the expense didn't eliminate the desire for environmentally friendly johns.

SRS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 03:33 AM

The salient points appear to be: 1) that all solid waste needs to be processed to become useful compost; 2) most commercially available, composting toilets are not suitable for a short term, heavy load; 3) those suitable for a long term light load need to be maintained and sensibly sited.

The traditional Earth Closets (a hole in the ground with a seat box or straining bar over it) are possible but need to be situated very carefully as they are basically just a hole in the ground and holes fill....

As for the urban myth, read my post again - and then go and read anything about sewage works. The best tomatoes grow in untreated sewage, the seeds having been passed through the human digestive system unbroken (in the manner of sweetcorn and certain nuts) but would you want to eat them (I wouldn't, I don't like tomatoes)? The key phrase which was used several times is "after it has been properly handled" or "taken away to be processed".

LTS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

Just for the record -

I've seen both Milorganite and ZooDoo for sale at garden shops in my town in the last couple of seasons. Our local zoo doesn't process it commercially, but occasionally has (once or twice within memory) had a "free fertilizer" day when you can go out an scoop up what you want.

I've also had the experience of buying some "discount" potting soil that, when the plastic bags were opened, looked like they just "put it in the bag" and hoped it would process on the way to market. It didn't. Still have a couple of bags I'm letting "finish."

John

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:14 AM

Sewage is simply the raw material, and it is very dangerous as such. Composting is a natural way to treat it. Once the human waste has been thoroughly composted, you won't find and viable seeds (i.e., tomatoes) because the heat of the process will have killed them and objects that passed through are destroyed in the composting. In spite of this, the U.S. banned various forms of produce from Japan for a long time because they used the composted human waste. Personally, I think this comes more from humans putting themselves in a "above Nature" position (human waste must be more potent than anything else!) than good science. There is no argument that untreated waste is dangerous; it's deadly. But these days there is also much better understanding of how the natural process works and it is widely accepted as safe.

If you have a compost pile of mixed vegetable and animal waste and you tend it carefully (keeping it pretty hot) you can break down the material over the space of several weeks. I haven't gone to any links for exact quotes, if someone has the time to find some good science, that would be welcome. But to make a compost heap (or bin or whatever you use) work, you need to mix your ingredients with plenty of water and air. Turn it frequently. You can add animal waste to yard compost with no special treatment most easily when yard heaps have a high percentage of vegetable waste. If you're doing a strictly human waste process then you're dependent on more specific containers, chemicals, and bacteria to break it down. I think that to play it safe those systems take longer. The Texas State Parks folks boosted the process with heat (solar panels) so they probably composted faster being somewhat less passive.

SRS

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Melani
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 02:31 AM

Actually, CB, I'm originally from Chicago, and first heard of Milorganite while living in Miami.

When my husband worked at the Urban House, they used to give tours that included the compost heap. The tour guide would shove his hand into the middle to feel the heat of the composting process, and all the tough and sophisticated folks on the tour would do the same, with an understated casual air. Then the guide would mention that the compost included graywater from the "urine-only" toilet (the Urban House had three toilets, all different), and the ones who had shoved their hands in would all start surreptiously rubbing their hands on their pants. Most entertaining.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Nemesis
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 07:43 AM

We had a "long drop" when I lived in central Africa .. actually, the official title was the Blair pit latrine ... sure there's a political joke in there somewhere :)

This was a concrete slab with a hole (and typically some "organisations" set a metal bar across this to stop women putting unwanted babies down the pit - this happened at least once while I was there - in one case they couldn't get the baby out in time) set over two interconnecting pits - the first took the "solids" with a second, rock-filled soak-away, overflow for "liquid"... (the block we built for our staff also had the innovation of a shower that drained away into the pit)

What was part of the mystique of how they worked - admittedly, the "long drop" was at least 15 feet - was dropping a lump of meat down the first pit to get the enzyme action going. There was no smell, although more primitive versions of these were known colloquially as the "Chimbudzi" translated from Chichewa as "Houze of the goats"!

From the house we had an underground "septic" type tank which, for years, had never ever given a problem or been emptied. Until, we added a second toilet and dug it up to add drainage. And discovered it was completely empty and bone dry ... where "things" had been going for decades we never worked out ... but outside the bathroom we did grow spectacularly tall - 4 and half feet versions of the normally 12" bedding plant - Salvia.

Subject: RE: composting toilet @music camp/folk fest?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 01:50 AM

That is a great story, Melani.

Just a side comment. Human waste is dangerous to us because of disease causing organisms that may be contained in it, is that right? The other day I was doing something about the house and not paying a great deal of attention to NPR but someone from some UN agency commented that the corpses still un-buried from the tsunami disaster didn't pose a threat to human health!! I found that puzzling to say the least. I may have misheard him but it seems quite unlikely.

CB