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Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins

Phillip 29 Dec 04 - 02:14 AM
Peace 29 Dec 04 - 02:33 AM
freda underhill 29 Dec 04 - 02:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 04 - 04:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Dec 04 - 06:00 AM
greg stephens 29 Dec 04 - 07:01 AM
freda underhill 29 Dec 04 - 07:57 AM
Wolfgang 29 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM
ard mhacha 29 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 29 Dec 04 - 02:22 PM
ard mhacha 29 Dec 04 - 02:29 PM
Little Robyn 29 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,petr 29 Dec 04 - 05:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 29 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM
greg stephens 29 Dec 04 - 08:43 PM
mikesamwild 06 Sep 11 - 02:16 PM
Les in Chorlton 06 Sep 11 - 02:22 PM
Liberty Boy 06 Sep 11 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,pizal 06 Sep 11 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,pizal 06 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM
Les in Chorlton 07 Sep 11 - 02:47 AM
doc.tom 07 Sep 11 - 07:14 AM
mikesamwild 07 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM
Darowyn 07 Sep 11 - 09:01 AM
doc.tom 07 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 07 Sep 11 - 09:18 AM
Les in Chorlton 07 Sep 11 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,JTT 07 Sep 11 - 11:00 AM
Les in Chorlton 07 Sep 11 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,JTT 08 Sep 11 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,SteveT 08 Sep 11 - 05:31 AM
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Subject: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Phillip
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:14 AM

(I've searched for any threads on this, using lots of combinations of Quinn, Berber, Celts etc. and found nothing, which surprised me. If there is a thread please re-direct me and forget about this one.)

Bob Quinn's book on the non-Celtic origins of the Irish and their culture has been re-published recently. Does anyone have an opinion on his ideas?

All I know of them is that he suggests there was a movement of people around the fringes of Europe and the Mediterranean by sea, taking cultural artefacts such as song (sean-nos apparently resembling Berber singing more than anything else) and language to places such as Ireland, Sweden, and the lands beyond Russia (although there wouldn't have been a Russia at that time, of course). And the Irish, he believes, were not Celts.

That great U2 bloke, Nobo, is convinced. Anyone else?

Phillip


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:33 AM

www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1128worth.html

www.hermetic.com/bey/snakes.html

Hope they are of use to you, Phillip.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:57 AM

The Guardian on Bob Quinn: are the irish celtic?

Bob Quinn's theory of the Irish Moors


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 04:03 AM

We have just had a discussion here on the so called black Irish and their origin. Could they indeed be of black origin?


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:00 AM

The term "Celtic" refers to language and associated culture, not to genetics.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:01 AM

Ah, the "meaning of Celtic" discussion. A lot of Quinn's theories are based on quite subjective assessments on what music sounds like, which I suppose is as good a place to start as any. Now, I dont know if he's got as far as Afghanistan, but I recorded an Afghan singer in Stoke a couple of years back who sounded quite remarkably Irish I thought; more so than any north African or Arab that I've heard. This fits in with Quinn's theories about lands beyond Russia, though I'm not sure how it fits in with the initial Atlantic Coast Culture stuff that started him off. I will have to read up on this in more detail.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 07:57 AM

another related thread


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM

Quinn is a TV producer and once was a commercial representative. These people usually go for the effect of a story, not necessarily for the truth, and are not trained in critical thinking about what constitutes evidence. That's a very good reason for me to be skeptical about that theory.

from a biography: He has been called, and is regarded in centrist circles, as a 'talented eccentric' (Ken Gray, Irish Times) and ageing 'maverick' (corporate RTE & Jim Kemmy)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

I seen his RTE TV programme on this about ten years ago, it never created much stir in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:22 PM

Because no one in Ireland really gives a shite if Bob Quinn or anyone else thinks they are or aren't 'Celtic'.

It's all quite ridiculous, and of course, there seems to be no other group of Europeans we see these stupid 'debates' go on and on about ad nauseum, is there?

Right then, who cares?


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:29 PM

Couldn`t agree more.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Little Robyn
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

We recently saw a TV programme on the Himalaya region and when they had a celebration the men taking part were wearing brightly coloured ribbons - very much like my Morris tatters, and they had bells around their ankles and baldricks across their chests. They were clomping around in some strange dance and they were SO like Morris dancers!
Maybe that's where we got Morris dancers from???
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:54 PM

I doubt the north african connection,

but the western chinese desert has burial mounds
containing mummies of blond celtic looking people even scraps of
cloth which is very tartan looking (from a NOVA documentary a few years ago) the were likely ancestors of the Tocharians which is an Indo-European language.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

The singing style called in Ireland "sean nos" has analogues in most European, North African and Near Eastern cultures (and doubtless many or most others). That doesn't imply any particular connection; simply that it's a common singing style that goes back a fair bit. A great deal of nonsense is talked about that "black Irish" business (see previous threads). Berbers and Moors are not black.

There's no harm in occasionally pricking the pompous balloon that "celticness" has grown into, but it really isn't important enough to get upset about. "Hakim Bey" has, I think, been mentioned here before; his theories are of the "ancient spaceman" variety; entertaining but ill-informed.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:43 PM

The term "sean nos" dates back, like all "Celtic" stuff (like bodhrans and so on) to immeasurable antiquity.... say 1950. Celtic, as McGrath points out, is a meaningfull term as regards languages. As regards music....well, whatever turns you on. There are a number of Celtic Dolphin Chillout CDs on the market. Buy. Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:16 PM

Geraldof Wales did write about 'Celts' in the 13th C. and mentioned the complexity of their instrumental playing that could be 'tiresome ' to those that didn't appreciate it. He was Norman/Welsh but wanted to show how primitive the Irish were and ripe for colonisation I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:22 PM

Hi Mike, trust you are well?

I like: "Geraldof" Wales - just shows how easy words and names morph as the get passed around?

Les


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 06:50 PM

Geraldue Cambrensis!


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,pizal
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 06:58 PM

G.S. 29. 12. 04.
The Scottish bodhrans were called ??????? [having a senior moment here} and were mentioned by their Scottish name by Neil Munro in one of his books in the early 20th. C.
Will have remembered the name, I hope, by the time I return from holidays at the end of September, and will post it then.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,pizal
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM

The instrument was called a "dollan"
Possible gaelic word. Any gaelic scholars to confirm?


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 02:47 AM

Thousands on 'ere but the word scholar may need to be a bit flexible!

L in C#
In sarcastic mood


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: doc.tom
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 07:14 AM

And I thought the Irish were genetically Vikings - well the Dubliners anyway.
I'll get me coat.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: mikesamwild
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM

Any DNA evidence? . I was tought in Genertics at University in the late 50s the Berbers had similar blood groups to the Celts

The Arabs must have swept through Berber lands but we may yet see a 'Berber Spring' in Libya and maybe they'll be invited to Pan Celtic festivals.

We're all half bread like sausges as my Dad used to say


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Darowyn
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 09:01 AM

Would it upset the theory too badly if it were to include the thought that Berber genetics and culture may be the result of the re-migration of Iberian (Celtiberian?) peoples into North Africa, as described in great detail in Museums in Tunis, Carthage and Sousse?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: doc.tom
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM

I was quoting DNA evidence - from that massive survey that was done a few years ago.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 09:18 AM

I read Quinn's book a couple of years ago and saw the film he made about 20 years back. Some intriguing hypotheses - part of his motivation was to try and debunk the idea of a Celtic 'Race'. He supposes that cultural influences from North Africa made their way to North-Western Europe by sea and that early Gnostic Christianity arrived the same way. Not implausible. He also goes into linguistic similarities but I don't know enough to say if he's right or not. I must have another look at it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 10:43 AM

If the book is that old it's probably factually out of date. So much mitocondrial and Y chromozone evidence has been established since.

here

I know Wiki is dodgy but it's agood place to start

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 11:00 AM

North Africa is pretty likely because of what we in Ireland call the 'Gulf Stream', though I think it's more correctly called something like the Continental Drift. This is a strong, warm tide that sweeps up along African and past the west coast of Ireland, and was always a great sea-road for us.

As far as I know, the genetic evidence is that Ireland and Britain have virtually identical profiles.

I've always noticed how very much like us the Slavs look; you wouldn't know where *that* came from.


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 02:35 PM

erm ................... 'Gulf Stream' - erm Gulf of Mexico, but who's counting?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 04:28 AM

"Once it gains enough strength after circulating in the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf Stream then moves east, rejoins the Antilles Current, and exits the area through the Straits of Florida. Here, the Gulf Stream is a powerful underwater river that transports water at a rate of 30 million cubic meters per second (or 30 Sverdrups). It then flows parallel to the east coast of the United States and later flows into the open ocean near Cape Hatteras but continues moving north. While flowing in this deeper ocean water, the Gulf Stream is its most powerful (at about 150 Sverdrups), forms large meanders, and splits into several currents, the largest of which is the North Atlantic Current.

"The North Atlantic Current then flows further north and feeds the Norwegian Current and moves the relatively warm water along the west coast of Europe. The rest of the Gulf Stream flows into the Canary Current which moves along the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean and back south to the equator."

(As this piece points out, the Gulf Stream is slowing and weakening due to the effect of climate change. Some climatologists posit that this massive current's death may plunge us into a new Ice Age.)


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Subject: RE: Bob Quinn's theory of Irish origins
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 05:31 AM

As implied above (McGrath of Harlow), genetics and culture are two totally different things. Most scholars do not consider the Celts as a race at all but as a cultural grouping; so whatever is happening to the genetic populations can be separate to whatever is happening to the "cultural Celts".

I have come across the view (supported by sources such as Dr Anne Ross and Peter Beresford Ellis) that Celtic art and culture spread from (central) Europe into Britain and Ireland and that the invading "Celts" killed or intermarried with the native population, suggesting a link between "genetic" and "cultural" Celts. An alternative view, supported by Simon James and Barry Cunliffe, suggests that, although Celtic culture spread across Europe, the Continental Celts did not physically replace the existing populations.   

Genetic studies clearly support the view of a common genetic heritage for what is referred to as the Atlantic façade (Northern Spain, Brittany, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland and to a lesser extent the rest of southern Britain [but much less other parts of the British Isles]. [Am J Hum Genet. 2004 October; 75(4): 693–702. Published online 2004 August 12].   The evidence suggests "a distinctive Atlantic genetic heritage with roots in the processes at the end of the last Ice Age" for these Atlantic façade Celts. The migration routes would have been maritime, much easier at that time than across forested countryside.

This would suggest that there is indeed a genetic link between Ireland and the rest of the Atlantic façade, (rather than with Northern Britain, Scotland and central Europe). Presumably the Viking origins of Dublin are an anomaly!? However none of this negates the likelihood of a cultural heritage for the Celts originating in Central Europe.

So is music cultural or genetic?


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