Famous Folk Singers And Wealth

Subject: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Matt S.
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 10:57 PM

Does anyone know if any of the folk singers of the 60's folk revival became wealthy? Clearly, Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger did well. What about the others who were popular at that time? Artists like Joan Baez, Odetta, Judy Collins, Richie Havens & Peter, Paul & Mary.

Also, how much do they usually earn per performance today?

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

Easiest way to find that out is to e-mail their booking agents/agencies and ask price per performance.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:04 PM

Or get a court order for them to produce their 1040 tax forms.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM

I'm guessing most of them still can command at least $10,000 a night, depending on the hall and the type of gig.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM

Dylan would command much more than that though, as he is doing arena rock tours now.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: NH Dave
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 01:47 AM

While Pete Seeger may well command fees like that these days, there was a very long time when he was singing for very little, and glad to get it, after his career was all but stolen from him by the House Committee on Unamerican Activities and Joe McCarthy.

As a result of his stand that he had the right to believe as he saw fit, associate with whomever he wished, and neither the House or Joe McCarthy had any right to take him to task for his exercise of this right, he was blackballed and banned from appearing on any program aired over commercial radio and TV. The immediate result of this was that he bowed out of his role with The Weavers, allowing various other banjo players his spot in the sun, so that The Weavers could continue to appear in commercial venues, but it was the death knell for them, except in the hearts of folk loving people across the country.

The fight against the efforts of various people to jail him for contempt of Congress was long and, no doubt, expensive, so that what he ended up with, aside from that warm fuzzy feeling way down deep, was a vindication of sorts, he wasn't jailed, but it was a long time before he could work in commercial entertainment again. During this time he made appearances on public television, worked with the Clearwater Coalition to clean up the Hudson River so that people could no longer cross on the pollution and fish could live in it and still be eaten by those who caught them.

Dave

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 07:07 AM

Nobody goes into folk music to get rich, they do it for love of the music, Bob Dylan got rich as a rock singer.

eric

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 07:17 AM

This is one of the nastiest questions I have seen on Mudcat for some time Matt S. It is none of my damned business who you sleep with or how much money you have. I extend the same respect to those who entertain me.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:44 AM

I think it's a legitimate question. You are way to sensitive alanabit.

Performing folk music is also a business and a livelihood for people.

Yes, folk musicians can be capitalists. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:54 AM

Hi Matt,

I think you'll find it was more the successful songwriters that did well financially than individual performers. There will always be some iconic types, Seeger, Baez, Judy Collins, Dylan, and PPM who do well whatever the situation. Joan and Judy are not considered to be exceptional song writers based on a volume of work. Altho' they have writen some good songs.

I saw Tom Paxton at Old Songs a few years back and he certainly wasn't getting $10,000.00 for the gig. But he comes to my mind as one of the most successful singer/song writers of the age. I would bet his income from songs, recorded by others or used in commercials, is greater or at least equal to his income from performance fees.

Don

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:58 AM

alanabit said:

It is none of my damned business who you sleep with or how much money you have.

I agree with you.

Unfortunately, neither the IRS, (or whatever their British equvivalent is called), nor the people who publish the tabloid newspapers that they sell at grocery store checkout counters, agree with either of us. And as far as the IRS is concerned, what they say goes.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:58 AM

No Martin, that was not my point. I have performed music for a living myself for many years. Of course folk musicians can have any political, religious or idealogical beliefs they choose. I just find it contemptibly rude and ignorant to speculate or inquire into the the private affairs of anyone. When people ask me about my private affairs - including financial ones - I reserve the right to tell them to mind their own business. (I have done just that face to face on television, in fact). I have no right to inquire into your private life. It is basic good manners that I don't. I am somewhat disturbed to find that well known performers are somehow considered to be less deserving of common courtesy than other people.
It is not a legitimate question. It is downright bloody rudeness.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:00 AM

No, I wouldn't expect Tom Paxton to pull down $10,000 a night. But I'm quite sure those named in the original post do.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Greg
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:16 AM

i too have wondered if famous folk singers who were popular in the 60's made out well from recordings, concerts, etc.

Judy Collins, Richie Havens, Odetta and Joan Baez are still selling tickets, touring and sound vital imho.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:47 AM

alanabit, if I pay $50 to see you perform and you really suck, I reserve the right to say that you are probably overpaid and don't deserve to be making what you are getting.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:53 AM

I could not agree more. But I hope you don't go around asking all your acquaintances how much loot they have or earn. I know that if I were to do that, I would need a very resiliant nose!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

Nah, it's a different deal when someone is a performer.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

I can see that there is not going to be any point at all in asking why!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

Asking a question in an open internet chat forum about earnings in an industry among the cream of the crop isn't exactly the equivalent of walking up to someone and asking them how much they earn.

So your indignation over the question being asked here seems misplaced, alanabit. Why did you automatically assume the original poster had malevolent intentions just for asking the question?

If I were someone who knew they really had the talent to make in this business, and I was just starting out, I'd sure ask what the top acts were making a night in a context like an open internet chat forum where there may be people who know the answer to the question.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:27 AM

Alanabit, I don't really find it rude when people ask me questions which I would not dream of asking them. I don't mind people asking me anything as long as they don't mind if I don't answer.

We are free to ask what questions we want, as long we know that it might well provoke a response we do not like. We do not have the right to have every question answered.

Hence the expression : There are more questions than answers.

Hence the question : How much did Johnny Nash make from that song ?

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Bassic
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:27 AM

I think Paul Simon probably made a few dollars as well.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: sixtieschick
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:00 PM

My first reaction was that "folk singers and wealth" is an oxymoron. However, I'm sure some people made some money. Whether or not they held onto it is another story. It's hard to make assumptions about anybody's' financial state. A lot of money went up some performers' noses. Some more went into multiple alimonies and child support. Others just managed it badly and it evaporated in a hundred little ways. Hopefully, some who made a more modest piles invested wisely and are living comfortably. Why is Dylan doing Victoria's Secret commercials? For all I know he lost all his dough in technology investments that went south and needs to pay the bills.

By the way, I think Pete Seeger has retired. That is what he wrote to someone trying to book him earlier this year (unless that was an excuse for a concert he didn't want to do.)
Chanteyranger and I used to go to Seeger's children's concerts in the mid-fifties. He used to perform for free in a park. That was during the time that HUAC had rendered him radioactive to concert promoters with real concert halls and real admission prices. God bless him for performing anyway. He made a lot of children very happy.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:16 PM

You are a SICK!!!! little Mudcat Kitten ......

Quite Frankly Who Gives a D.....

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Jealousies can run...deep, deep, deep, it is not up to "outsiders" to pass judgement on professional accountants, lawyersn or PAST governmental LAWS.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:18 PM

It appears that someone is ...phishing... fishing... wishing..... for a USA governmental reward with the current bounty paid on returned past income taxes.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Matt S.
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM

I'm a singer/songwriter/guitarist who performs a lot and have been told by many I have the talent to make it in the folk world. That's why I was wondering about the salaries of top acts, etc.

Btw, I was really surprised when I saw Dylan in the Victoria Secret commercials. It was below him.

Matt

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: sixtieschick
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:25 PM

Matt,

Obviously I took off in a philosophical direction that wasn't helpful to you. I wish you great good fortune in doing what you love and making it pay the bills. It can be done. But invest that green stuff wisely, whatever that means these days.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Matt S.
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:39 PM

Sixtieschick,

Are you a performer yourself?

Matt

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:01 AM

Matt - maybe this is too much personal info to put up in public, but here goes.

I've been making a living at folk music for the last 5 years - come the end of next month. I am still determined to make it work somehow, but it don't come easy!

I don't believe any of the "cream of the crop" you mention at the top of this thread would command 10K per performance for many performances in a year - with the exception of Dylan - and I am sure he makes much more. The others would get several shows for that much in the course of a year - a few more for less or for free. They've probably developed off-shoot means of income (authorship or performance royalties, books, CDs, TV shows, etc). I'll bet they work a lot shows from 3K to 6K, and pay some band members out that.

Tom Paxton is a working musician. He works a lot, performs a lot and makes income from royalties. If you work all the time, you will not usually be commanding the 10K/performance rates (for years on end). But I'd bet Tom gets a few K$ per booking, and think he should. He certainly is one of the very best.

Those of us on the lower rungs of that ladder, work a lot, and work for a wide range of fees. I've booked gigs over the next few months for $2000 and more for $200 or $300 (my high paying gigs are festivals and I play a few sets over 2 or 3 days). I work sometimes for the door (and take my chances) and sometimes even just for CD sales. When I take those risks, I weigh them carefully. Sometimes I loose - usually I do OK.

It's tough to make money at this - but I am convinced if I work really hard and keep focused it'll get better. CD sales are probably half my income, and I sell most of those off the stage. So once again, you gotta work a lot make any money at this - and even then it doesn't add up to much (yet) but ya might almost make a living!

;-)

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Auggie
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:07 AM

I think that almost all of the folk singers I know personally are extremely well off, and that's because most of them are wise enough to measure wealth in terms other than money. It's one of the things that make folk musicians unique.

Do they get paid in dollars what they are worth? Hell no, they probably make out worse than teachers in that regard, but if you need to know the cost of everything then you probably don't know the value of anything.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: sixtieschick
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:24 AM

Matt, I'd have to pay people at least 10K to listen to me sing. Others here have given you some pragmatic and wise advice. I can only cheer you on.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Matt S.
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:03 AM

Thanks for all the comments and advice given (especially Jed Marum.) I'm going to move forward with Folk Music.

Thanks again,
Matt

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,John T.
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

I once read Joan Baez gave most of the money she earned to causes she believed in at the height of her popularity (early to mid 60's.) She was said to be earning $10,000 for most concerts in those years.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

Hmmm. I've just received $9 as my wholesale reimbursement for the sale of my first personal CD, to some fellow from NJ who happened into the shop where I was playing it for the manager.

Only $999,991 more and I'll be grossing a million dollars! My God, how the money pours in!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: jaze
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 07:17 PM

I also read that Joan Baez gave away a lot to causes and performed free many times. She said she could have been fabulously wealthy if she had wanted to go "commercial".At the time, money wasn't that big an issue with her and actually caused her some confusion. In later years she probablly wished she had taken money more serioulsy. She decribed a reunion concert I think at Gerdes' Folk City where Tom Rush had to send plane fare for her and Mimi Farina so they could attend. Joni Mitchell made a lot of money but largely from her songwriting and publishing. She wisely kept control of all her music. She lost the chance to be in the movie Alice's Restraunt because the producers wanted the rights to the song she was going to sing in it and she refused. She was a smart businesswoman.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: EagleWing
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 08:12 PM

"I saw Tom Paxton at Old Songs a few years back and he certainly wasn't getting $10,000.00 for the gig. But he comes to my mind as one of the most successful singer/song writers of the age. I would bet his income from songs, recorded by others or used in commercials, is greater or at least equal to his income from performance fees."

Indeed, Tom Paxton makes regular visits to a folk club in Northwest Leicestershire in England and I doubt if he gets more than a few hundred pounds for them.

Frank L

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 08:21 PM

Reality check.

How much someone gets paid per performance gives a considerably inflated idea of how much they personally get to keep. You have to factor in the cut to their agent, travel expenses, hotels, union dues to both the musician's own local and a substantial cut to the local he or she is performing in (indexed to how much they earn), and on and on it goes. All that comes off the top.

I learned this the hard way. Then—I took a class in "the business of music" at the Cornish School in Seattle, where they teach you some of the practical aspects of being a professional musician. After that, I started asking for realistic fees instead of what was generally being offered. Three results: 1) if you don't ask for it, promoters sure as hell aren't going to pay it to you; 2) suddenly they respect you; and 3) you may not work quite as much, but overall, you make a lot more money.

And some folk singers are using back-up bands these days (Baez, Dylan, others). Those folks don't work for nuthin'.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM

Okay. The Highwaymen (remember them?) performed at a small college in West-central Illinois in 1965 for $1,500. The Mitchell Trio (minus Chad, but with John Denver) charged $2,250 in 1966. In 1967, Judy Collins charged $3,000.

Points to remember:

1. This was the total paid to the booking agent, NOT to the performer, and has been noted there are expenses such as lodging, transportation, meals, and so forth -- and the college was most definitely NOT on a major traffic route. There wasn't even an Interstate highway in the area until twenty years later.

2. These performances were mid-week; the performers were snagged when they were between higher paying venues.

3. As I remember, PP&M wanted $15,000 for a performance at that time.

4. NONE of them gave anything less than a very professional performance. (And if Judy Collins happens to stumble over this thread -- the college was a few miles west of McMurray.)

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:57 PM

In a lot of ways, you are looking at it the wrong way, because you are thinking about what your prospects of financial success are--as Auggie points out, folk music, whatever that means, is not about money--folk music people are well off because they are doing something that is fullfilling and meaningful to them, and they have figured out a way to, if not always exactly make a living, at least to keep from starving,while keeping it the focus of their lives--

Most people who perform professionally have an idiosyncratic mix of music/performance realated things that they do to cover the rent and put food on the table, with a backup cash cow thing, that they can fall back on when things get tight-- like tending bar, substitute teaching, driving a limo, playing Santa--I know one musician who is fill in traffic court judge(an activist type who went to law school to change the world, and changed his mind instead)--Tal Farlow, one of the best jazz guitarists ever, was a sign painter--so it isn't as if "real" musicians don't do it--

The trick is to create a lifestyle that does not require a lot of money to maintain--that means you avoid credit, car payments, live in the cheap part of town, cook bean soup from scratch--pay cash for what you need when you've got the cash, and do without when you don't--

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:38 PM

Let's see, this is an interesting topic! Something I rarely thought about unless we ran short of cash.

It was never the money first. All we needed was for me to make enough to get by and pay the bills. Over the years, I guess I sold more than one instrument to get the rent money together. The music and my perceptions of what it meant for me to be a folksinger came second---after the family. After the music "grabbed me", there was no real choice--in spite of what philosophers might say about choises. After choosing my own mentors and learning some of it at their knees, the meandering trail was of my own making---wondrous and scary both. Family was always first though. Luck had a ton to do with making it work. I found a ten-year job singing on Mississippi River steamboats just in time to get Chris through college with nobody owing anything. (If I sound proud, it's 'cause I am. ;-)

The only time I am chagrined at how little I've made over the years is when I go back to where I grew up and run into old friends who might be millionaires. And there were always some nicer things I would've liked to give Carol over the years. Other than those, I don't think I feel many regrets.---- And, oh, the music we heard and the friends we made! Just the best!!

Art

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:40 PM

Art, ain't that what it's all about?

If I wanted to be rich I certainly wouldn't have chosen to be a librarian.

Enough to pay the bills, enough to live on, and a life lived completely enough to be worth remembering.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:28 AM

All of you have given me much to think about.

Thanks so much,
Matt

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:43 AM

The top North American and European folk acts playing conventional halls on conventional tours are usually going to pulling in $10,000 a night. They won't make the same amount playing small clubs or big folk festivals. I think Jed is right to be flexible, and sometimes agree for a percent of the door, but it can tough doing that because you have to know both the venue and the market, something many don't know. But there are ways to learn, and lots of good resources nowadays for finding the information out.

I'd make one more suggestion, if you are planning on doing this professionally. Insist on a hotel room, and don't stay in people's homes. It wreaks havoc with your schedule and needs on the road. You need to be in control of that, not at the mercy of others, despite the generosity factor.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM

To me, it's epitomized in Brian McNeill's The Roving' Dies Hard.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,T.W.
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

Rapaire,

Is that a song or a book?

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM

Song. To save you time searching the Forum --

THE ROVIN' DIES HARD (Brian McNeill)

My name's John Mackenzie, I'm a master-at-arms,
I carry my sword and my shield on my shoulder.
I've fought every fight from the Don to the Danube,
None braver, none better, none bolder.
I've stood wi' Montrose and aginst him.
I've battled with Swedes and with Danes.
And I've carried the standard o' many's the army,
Through many's the bloody campaign.
But now as I sit in the firelight it seems
There's a distant horizon to the sword buckler's gleam.
Till a pull at the wine brings an old soldier's dreams from afar
- For the rovin' dies hard.

I'm Calum MacLean; I'm a trapper to trade.
And it's forty long years since I saw Tobermory.
Through Canada's forests I've carried my plaid,
And its pine trees could tell you my story.
Now my wandering days they are over,
But I'm thankful to still be alive
For I've many's the kinsman who died in the hulks
At the end of the bold forty-five.
I've an Indian lass now; I'll never deceive her,
But there's nights when I'd up with my gun and I'd leave her
For the land where the bear and the fox and the beaver are lord
- For the rovin' dies hard

My name's Robert Johnston, I'm a man of the cloth
And I'll carry my Bible as long as I'm breathing.
I've preached the Lord's gospel from Shanghai to Glasgow,
Where e'er He saw fit to make heathens.
But now the Kirk's calling me homewards
It's the manse and the elders for me,
But the sins o' the Session'll no be so far
From the sins of the South China Sea
And perhaps it's the voice of the Devil I've heard
For it speaks of the clipper ships flying like birds,
Till a man's only comfort is Scripture and the words of the Lord
For the rovin' dies hard

My name's Willie Campbell, I'm a ship's engineer
And I know every berth between Lisbon and Largo
I've sweated more diesel in thirty-five years
Than a big tanker takes for cargo
O' the good time I've had plenty
Where the whisky and women were wild
And there's many the wean wi' the red locks o' the Campbells
Who's ne'er seen the coast of Argyll
But now as the freighters unload on the quay
The sound of the engine is calling to me
And it sings me a song of the sun and the sea and the stars
For the rovin' dies hard

I've tuned up me fiddle and rosined my bow
And I've sung o' the clans and the clear crystal fountains
I can tell you the road and the miles from Dundee
To the back of Alaska's wild mountains
And when all of my travelling is over
The next of the rovers will come
And he'll take all the songs and he'll sing them again
To the beat from a different drum
And if ever I'm asked why the Scots are beguiled
I'll lift up my glass in a health and I'll smile
And tell them that fortune dealt Scotland the wildest of cards

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: tarheel
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

dear guest MATT R....this day and time,it doesnt matter how talented you arew(singer,guitarist,etc..)folks like you are a dime a dozen and the chances of you "making it" in the business is>>>>zilch!!!
hate to be the bearer of bad news here onnthe first day of the new year,but it's just the facts of life,my friend!!!sorry!
oh by the way...why do you think Dylan does commercials for Victorias Secret,now?...BECAUSE there is more money in that than he will ever see again in his music,no matter how dedicated he is to it!!!
another fact of life,my friend!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 12:47 PM

Dylan did Victoria's Secret because he is and has been a sell out for a reeeeeeeeaaaaaallllllly long time.

Fuck the begrudgers, Matt. Break a leg.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

Matt,

Some people have tact; others tell the truth.

The folk scene ought not be a springboard to popular musical success. (And, please, do not break a leg. There's pain enough in show biz.) If you want to be a folksinger, sing actual folksongs a good 60% of the time.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:23 PM

Folk nazi alert.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: tarheel
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:23 PM

i dont begrudge anything or anybody,Guest!!!
i'm as happy as a hog in shit right now and live off my social security,pensions and just plain ole dollar gigs here and there!
i wouldnt have it any other way,my friends!!!!!