Famous Folk Singers And Wealth

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

Chanteyranger -- now I understand your nickname! I'm curious about the park where you work; I was not aware that there was any other "park" in the country like the one we have here (which isn't so much as "park" as a series of programs operating out of a couple of buildings in the French Quarter).

Sunpie Barnes is a fairly well-known local performer who fronts his own zydeco band on a squeezebox of some kind. Matt Hempsey is a young guitar player and a (relatively) recent graduate of the Jazz Studies program at UNO (U. of New Orleans, of course). Matt's not as well-known by name as his colleague, but gets plenty of work backing up others in various groups, working in all kinds of genres.

They aren't generally seen wearing their Smokey-the Bear hats after 5 p.m. ;^)

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

Another 100th post

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

And to add to my own feeling of well being ----

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

I got turned on to playing music for other people to enjoy in my late teens , when I was NOT in a position to do it seriously for money as I was in the Armed Forces . By the time I was a civilian again , my music had turned from Jazz to Folk and after a couple of years I slung the Day job and went pro. I lasted three years and finished up back at a day job and playing music as a self supporting hobby , until
I was 'in the right place at the right time' and started being serious (and Semi Pro) . During the day job years I was able to get some decent instruments and equipment together and at the age of 61
slung the day job again and now am a Jobbing pro musician/singer .
I have somewhere to keep my gear , a small second hand car , and can
go out for a beer (or buy a bottle of decent whisky) more or less when I want . Wealthy I will never be , but I am rich in good musical friends , have my health , and STILL enjoy entertaining people .

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: coldjam
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

There may also be a danger in the folk process, if they are paid too well (at least at first) that they may forget what they DID have to say, and get too caught up in the money and the life.I say "may" cause I don't know. I'd like to find out though! Part of what folk music is, is sharing the plight of the underdog, at least for a while.Celebrity changes a lot, which I think may be what Dylan was trying to share in his book. Whaddya think?

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

PoppaGator, New Orleans Jazz NHS sounds like a wonderful park. I've heard much about it. I'm probably ranger Barnes and Hempsey's equivalent at the park where I work, as I'm also a uniformed ranger who occasionaly performs on the job, and organizes concerts and music festivals. One other example of the federal government sponsoring folk music was the commissioning of Woody Guthrie to write songs about federal projects (Grand Coulee Dam, etc.)

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: emjay
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:24 PM

I looked at this thread because it's a subject that often comes up. We listen to wonderful musicians making great music and know that almost no one around us has ever even heard of these people. So -- we wonder how much money do they make? Are they paid any where near what they deserve compared to the popular musicians who are rich.?
And whatever anyone else thinks, I think our culture/our country values the arts too little. We all benefit from the arts--music as well as the visual arts and theater and dance and I wonder why we give athletes multi-million dollar contracts but a folk musician who preserves something of value barely pays for his or her bread.
(I love baseball and its overpaid practitioners, and I am an artist who has never come close to making a living at it so of course I have given the topic some thought. )
This is a particular topic that I really do care about, and I never even thought the question was intended to be intrusive.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM

It has always amazed me how little regard the great british public pays to folk music and folk musicians and as a result how you can still get to see the most amazingly talented people at small, low price gigs. The top names in folk music still have to work excedingly hard to make a modest living and they really are the very small tip of a huge iceberg of people who are out there performing in pubs, clubs, festivals, groups of friends.

If you are thinking about whether you can make a living do something you want to do anyway I think you must first establish that you have sufficient talent and charisma to make people around you want to see you perform then look to widen the circle in which you are successful, rather than look at whether people who moved in a different world 40 years ago and who were truly exceptional are making big bucks.

Play because you enjoy it, or because you have something important to say. If you are incredibly lucky as well as exceptionally gifted you may make money out of it but you cant know that without being out there doing it.
love robbie

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:18 PM

Hell, coldjam, don't apologise to Martin Gibson. He IS the thread creep!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: coldjam
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

This is too funny and too stupid on my part not to confess...Art I thought you were referring to "Martin" as the "thread creep",kind of a good-natured dig at him or something.I understand now what you meant!I guess it's apparent I am pretty new at all this. My apologies to Martin as well.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

Here in New Orleans, there is a "Jazz National Park" ~ a unique entity, as far as I know ~ and I know of at least two fine musicians who have day jobs there as uniformed Park Rangers: Bruce "Sunpie" Barnes and Matt Hempsey. In this capacity, they occasionally perform themselves, and regularly (daily, or almost daily) organize and supervise lectures and concerts.

Providing jobs like these, and hiring musicians regularly for performances, seems like an appropriate role for government in supporting the arts. I am less enthusiastic about designating a lucky few performers as "national treasures" and providing full-time lifetime incomes ~ who would decide which individuals receive such coveted status? I can't imagine the process NOT being rife with corruption.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:46 AM

Well, I'm a federal employee of the National Park Service, and parks hire folk musicians. We have a sea music festival and a sea music concert series at our park, and traditional music plays a role in our interpretive programs, as it does in several other parks. Funding comes from a combination of each park's individual budgets, and private monies from national park cooperating associations, which raise money to support parks.

Now, this is diferent than what Peter T suggests, but still an example of a branch of the federal government that does recognise the role folk music plays in our society and in interpreting our heritage.

Martin, would the above example give you cause to modify what appears to be your blanket rejection of govt support for folk musicians (and sorry if I'm mis-reading you), and that some limited govt support for folk musicians in specific contexts is wise? My own position is somewhere between yours and Peter T.'s. While I do not advocate folk musicians as a whole being declared national treasures, and as such being taken out of the marketplace (because I do not value myself as a musician above firefighters, police, nurses, etc., etc.,) I do think the federal govt has a role in supporting music in specific contexts.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:13 AM

None taken. ;-) I just figured I'd, once again, said something more than what I thought I said. I was just trying to get info from M.G. about him and Chicago--which was off topic.

Art

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: coldjam
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:37 PM

*blushes* Oops sorry.Think I misunderstood the thread creep comment! No offense meant.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: coldjam
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

I guess I would take umbrage at the comment made by the "thread creep" that compares folk singers to folks "who really toil for a living". There is so much more involved than just getting up and singing some folk songs. There are hours of practice and learning your instrument(s), working on your voice, memorizing words and progressions etc, then there are the hours of research, and contacting places to perform,booking yourself, office work that goes along with all that, and then getting to the gig and back,sometimes having to find a place to spend the night,having a vehicle and equipment and time to do it all, and being in good enough shape and health to get up and sing the song.All this is done with no monetary pay.Oh,I forgot to mention the job most of them have to get to afford to do this and the free time to actually create something new songwise. It ain't digging ditches, but it's right in there with a full days work-and then some!

Which brings me back to some advice for the guy who started all this (Matt): be excellent at what you do, contantly look for ways to improve, and learn from the pros like Art and Jed. Don't expect people to pay you for just getting up and singing your favorite songs without the excellence.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM

Martin,

What part of Chicago are you in? Which, for you, are the most fascinating parts o' town.(obvious thread creep)

Art

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:43 PM

Read all of the thread before you shoot off your fat mouth, Baggyrash.

Here's my opinion:

governments paying folksingers to sing folkmusic is stupid.

I don't care if it is happening in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Don't know of this has been said before, I've not read all the thread, but what the f*8k has it got to do with you

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:11 PM

But they have lousy baseball teams.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM

Martin, Ireland is one of them. And believe me, it's no longer poor!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

Except that the countries that you mentioned are probably piss poor and also make income selling postage stamps of acts like the 3 Stooges or Britainy Spears.

Sorry, pal. You can have those type of countries. No one, I am sure is breaking their doors down to get in to them, unlike the USA where we still let people in for real opportunities to better their life.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:23 AM

Some countries are actually supportive of the arts and artists, the way the US is of it's big money sports.

I prefer the former, personally. Also, there are countries that give tax breaks to individual artists instead of owners of major league teams.

Depends on your values and priorities, really. I think the US has their heads up their arses when it comes to this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:17 AM

Pick a socialist country.

If you declare folk singers a national treasure and give them an income, I would think that people who really toil for a living might just have a problem.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:50 AM

I am in favour of folk singers being declared national treasures and given an income.

Interesting to compare this kind of a discussion to one involving old black blues men and women.

I would have thought a basic rule was to go to a country with universal health care.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:00 PM

Might I suggest you join the Folk Alliance.

The Folk Alliance is high-powered for sure, but they have more of a srious business-like atitude about things folk than anyone ever has. Agents, managers, product manufacturing, connecting with record companies. As far as networking goes, their annual convention is tops---that whether you are just schmoozing with friends of old, as many of us "old fogey folkies" seem to do there mainly, or if you actually seem to fit in this brave new folk world that is so incomprehensible to the likes of me. In the same way that the old Mountain Men were not wanting to participate in what the West became later, many of us that see this folk music the way I always have just sort of sit back and watch the passing parade and wonder how the next generation will figure out to outrage earlier folks. When folks need what we saved, we are right there to "guide" newcomers back to the future to teach them how we got from there to here IF they want to know.--- Those old Mountain Men fur trappers (we were song trappers) were the only ones with the knowledge to guide the people West after the beaver were gone. They knew the Indian paths--and a few more to boot.

Back to money:----For me, this discussion of money is after the fact and a bit of a moot point since I'm out of the loop these days. Keep in mind that talking about money to us older ones who are off the road is alot like comparing what cash Jackie Robinson made to what Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa is making. It's rather frustrating when I think what fees I settled for, but what the hell, you good people today need so damn much more cash just to have a standard of living similar to the one like Jed Marum described. Just paying the astronomical rents charged here and now in the USA would be impossible for Carol and I if we weren't living in a HUD building. You kids need astronomical amounts of cash just to break even.

In spite of what I think folk music IS,   I can see that the Folk Alliance attitudes toward this scene as a business is the way to go for you singer-songwriters and world-music-fusion practitioners. I wish you all the best. It's a wondrous road you've chosen!!! ENJOY

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: johnross
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:56 PM

I strongly suspect that there's a lot more money in composer's royalties than in concert fees, for that small number of songwriters who write a significant hit song. I have no knowledge of specific numbers, but I remember Ewan MacColl ruefully commenting in about 1982 that the royalties from "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" were now less than half of his annual income.

Of course, I've also seen a quarterly royalty check from BMI to a well-known singer/songwriter for sixteen cents. But when a song becomes a "standard", it turns into a money machine. The extreme example was Mel Torme, who wrote "The Christmas Song" (Chestnuts roasting...). His annual royalty on that one song was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest, Kathleen in VA
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM

Coldjam..you have a sensible way of speaking! The American dream that young folks look at in this millenium requires a dedication to make ALOT of money, while the " humble/adequate " lifestyle you speak of could well be a high standard of living for many folks in the world. We have a skewed picture of " success" as delivered in the media and also handed down to us by the upstairs/downstairs class struggles that many generations have moved through.
Folk Music as it is and was never seemed to me to represent for the upper class, however... work done well should be rewarded by a decent fee. Nobody could ever begrudge a decent wage to the hard travelling bands ( i.e. the Battle field Band..The Chieftains, etc)
because they are Excellent musicians and professionals. I would love to see all the fine, talented, hard working, longtime career folkies earning enough to care for themselves, families, and their bodies so that they can retire in good health!
So, whoever you are , coldjam, three cheers for you, too.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: coldjam
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:34 PM

There is an income to be made in middle America without being a super star,in many of the arts.This is not to set the bar low, but to show a way of life that encompases making music/art, and at the same time being able to support oneself in what,(in America, but way more in most of the rest of world), would be a humble/adequate lifestyle.Intelligence and discipline has to play a part;for instance, rather than needing extensive health-care, a performer has to actually make taking care of their body/instrument a part of the package.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 06:31 PM

Back at ya there 5:54. I never cease to be amazed at the stinginess in the folk music community about this subject, and the tendency so many have to demonize the musicians who are making their music pay well enough to comfortably support a family well, as if they had signed on for back up to Britney Spears or something.

I want the world to love and respect the music AND the musicians. Not paying the musicians shit just marginalizes them and the music.

Why shouldn't folk and traditional musicians be earning on a par with other professionals like teachers or hairdressers or nurses and doctors or attorneys and paralegals or what have you?

Why shouldn't we be trying to raise appreciation of the music in the eyes of the music consuming public, to put folk and traditional music on a par with jazz or R & B or country or classical music?

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

as the previous Guest you refer to re being "well taken"....the above is well said!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:14 PM

I think if you look at a lot of the most successful Celtic music acts, you see many more musicians who have done well financially. None of them are filthy rich, but they do own their own nice homes, and make enough money to support their families, including providing them with health insurance, retirement income, vacation money, and the ability to pay for their children's education, the same way the rest of us do.

Don't do what the majority have done Matt, and set your sets low. The point someone made above, about so many folk musicians now needing benefit gigs to pay for their health care, is well taken. So is the fact that nowadays, there aren't that many spouses/partners who are willing to have all the home responsibilities and financial burdens dumped on them by their "creative" other half. Nor should they have to put up with it. It is one thing to have both people working, so perhaps the health insurance is covered by the person with a job that provides it. But many creative couples don't have that option, so then you are looking at buying your own health insurance. I don't know if the unions still do that for musicians. I know the National Writers Union has had a hell of a time in recent years providing that for it's members.

It is tricky to do this right, but I know quite a few Irish and Scots musicians who are doing very well. One duo I know of literally earned the money to pay cash for their houses (of course, they needed some serious remodeling, but that isn't the point) from two tours of the US and Canada, six months apart. You have to lay out that cash when you've got it though (as someone also pointed out above). Paddy Maloney of the Chieftains, just as a for instance, has a beautiful home in Ireland, edcuated his kids well, etc. but worked at all of that for many years. He didn't instantly have the dream home he has now--he and his wife worked at it for many, many years.

Of course, many people begrudge the Chieftains their success, and blame them for everything they can think of, like having to pay royalties to perform traditional songs in pubs that the Chieftains recorded on their albums. Which is totally false, but that doesn't stop the begrudgers from whining about it.

There is nothing noble about making the choice to be a professional musician, whatever genre, and then limiting your income potential just to appease your begrudger critics. The noble thing to do is to fight like hell to do what a lot of traditional and trad/roots Celtic acts have done, which is to raise the bar of professionalism for trad/folk music to put it on a par with other creative fields. And yes, that means the house payment, the college fund, the health insurance, the retirement accounts, etc etc.

Nothing burns me up more than comfortable, middle class folk and trad music enthusiasts setting the bar low, and then demonizing musicians with high standards for themselves doing their music more professionally as a career that will support them and their family at the same standard of living that teachers and accountants have, rather than setting their sights low and earning just enough to get by.

Your loved ones deserve much better than that. And I know more than a handful of professional musicians who went through a lot of heartbreak losing their 1st partners/families to learn that they owe just as much to their loved ones as their do their creative work.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 03:53 PM

69

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Melani
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

I think it's rather rare to make a really good living from music or any other performing art, for that matter. I just read a review of a play in the paper that mentioned the fine performance of one of the actors--it was the carpenter who built our back porch. The job took a little longer because he had to take off in the middle of the day for a voice-over audition.

I have had the great good fortune to get to know a number of very fine musicians, and with the exception of a couple who are retired, they all have day jobs. Only one of them has a day job that has anything to do with music, and he also has to give tours and lock the restrooms.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM

This thread is like a microcosm of the Mudcat, it has so many different directions.

Sure some 60's "folksingers" made lots of money, and some of them still have it. Both of those clauses would apply to any other profession. What that has to do with deciding whether to pursue a career in what is loosely referred to as folk music in 2004, I don't have a clue. Unless you are thinking of starting a tribute band and must choose between Dylan and PPM. (I wouldn't go this way myself, A Mighty Wind was hilarious but died a thousand deaths at the box office).

Matt (S, not R, let's note), meaning no disrespect, I get the impression you have this kind of "American Idol" concept of "folk music" as a route to make yourself a star. Makes me wonder, what if we told you all those 60's folk idols live in shacks now? Would you be checking out the earnings of 70's rock musicians or 50's doo-wop singers? If you are actually interested in the music, as you can see there is considerable knowledge here, and willingness to share it, from many who have pursued it as a vocation or avocation for several decades. If you are just looking for wealth, there are better ways to pursue it (start by going to business school) and then you can buy better guitars than most of us can afford.   

Warning: in folkie quarters such as this one you will find a certain resentment of the self-obsessed mindset of so many self-styled "folksingers" or singer-songwriters who have a single-minded ambition to climb to the top of the heap. "That's not where it's at." Perhaps you have already sensed this.

But if folk, blues and acoustic music interests you for itself, join the Mudcat and hang around. We also get together in person now and then here and there in the widely scattered folk music universe Mudcatters are in USA, Canada, UK, Europe, Australia and God knows where else)--those meetings are always fun for sharing.

Best
Willie-O
acerbic Canadian Catter

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:06 AM

Well said Kathleen in VA.

We started out discussing those at the top of the list - and while many are worthy of being there, only a few are lucky enough and good enough to make it there.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest Kathleen in VA
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:01 AM

A couple of thoughts:

1)Anyone who puts art or music first in their lives has already decided that they want to create and express who they are rather than carry loads of money to the bank. It is a combination of talent, determination and luck that enables any artist to live
" comfortably" in the world. ( plus maybe a significant other adding to the art income)

2)Folk Music in the 60's was also tied to a cultural envioromnent which happened to jettison many of those folks to national and worldwide visibility , hence, fame. The sang the right song at the right time to the right audience.


3) I think it's great that some people can earn a good income
doing what they love to do..including folk music, carpentry, organic farming or anything...What's not so great is anybody assuming they have a right to millions just because they wrote a couple of songs.
Grace has alot to do with how we succeed.

For what it's worth...

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 09:42 AM

Good thoughts here, Art - (especially those expressed before you were attacked).

What gives me serious pause now, as I work my way through this business is the sacrifice I ask of my wife and that is a regret you noted above too. I have not been much a provider these last few years ... and I have been gone a lot, too.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:27 AM

Once, in the early 1960s, Dylan asked me where Ewan McColl lived. I said he lived in Bexley Heath, in a 'nice' house. Bob expressed some shock, 'Oh, I thought he'd live in a kind of slum', was his answer. You can make of this as you will!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM

"commitment, sincerity, and beliefs"
I don't disagree with that Bill, but I can't help noticing there's more and more benefit concerts for older folk musicians who haven't got two pennies to rub together after a lifetime of giving pleasure to people with secure jobs and pensions. I'd like to see good pros getting it all and I'd like to see them realising early on in their careers that if they don't think of the money as well as their life's work and passion, they too will end up needing benefit concerts.
I value them too highly to wish that to be their destiny.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,coldjam
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:32 PM

M.Ted had words of wisdom,especially for folks starting out in anything!: "The trick is to create a lifestyle that does not require a lot of money to maintain--that means you avoid credit, car payments, live in the cheap part of town, cook bean soup from scratch--pay cash for what you need when you've got the cash, and do without when you don't--" You can accomplish a lot, and follow your art if you stick to that.

I just read Dylan's book, and "the honest truth" would be a very ephemeral label to try to apply.If you took what he said at face value,you could figure he did Victoria's Secret to throw everyone off "his scent" once again.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:16 PM

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 09:22 PM

GUEST: Well---I guess that puts The Bob in true perspective---unlike the Guthries or the Seegers. Also in the perspective of the "brilliant" essay" by yours truly above.

If the pension and the residuals were his main concern he does not have the character to even hold a door open for a Seeger or and Ochs. This was your quote (re : pensions.

It all has to do---as said earlier--with commitment, sincerity, and beliefs.

Nuff said.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:35 PM

Dylan? Read his book. It's all there, the honest truth for once.
And this idea of putting the music first, the good life etc, making enough to get by, is okay till late middle age hits, and old age looms. Where's the security? Where's the pension? If the voice goes or arthritis hits the hands, or the car crash maims you, it's goodbye, and if you ain't got it in the bank you're in deep trouble. If you're a pro in any job you work for the money first or you're a fool. It doesn't mean you "sell out", whatever that means, but it does mean that you treat it as a job just like any other worker who's trying to avoid the workhouse.
Or, as Dylan writes it, " I could see the future-an old actor fumbling in garbage cans outside the theatre of past triumphs."
It's a great book! But it's not a romance.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:34 PM

Art, if you'd like I'll cybernetically punch him in the nose for calling you that.

You might be an optimist (hell, you're a Cubs fan!) but I don't think that you're a nazi of any sort.

Besides, I have no idea what a "folk nazi" might be, but it doesn't sound very nice.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:25 PM

All I can say is that is how I see things. It's the way things ought to be if we had an ideal situation. I've no problem at all with you not understanding what I'm saying. Call me a folk nazi or whatever.

Best Regards and happy new year.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 06:56 PM

Dave Van Ronk once said:   How does a folk singer get one million dollars? He starts with two million.

I believe that in this genre of music, as in many ares of endeavor, one has to just love what they do and do it for the joy and sense of accomplishment it brings them. If it is also financially viable---all to the good.
   
   Pete Seeger, as stated earlier, worked and played for many years for "peanuts". It was about the music and the message. Talent and charisma and honesty won out. Once, I had the pleasure of attending a Martin Luther King evening honoring him---and they were giving him a small monetary honorarium. He wanted to return it (his wife thought better of that).

   In my own case---not being a musician---I co-host a radio program--we do not get paid. We do it for the love of the thing we do. Would it be nice of someone decided to syndicate the program--pay us? Sure. Still we do the program --as said--for the love of the music and the artists and the hope that we can interest others in joining us in this joy. I say "we"===obviously I speak only for myself and not my co-host (Ron Olesko). I am, however, confident that he concurs.

   Finally, I have found that in people I have known over the years the most financially successful ones were those that just gave their all to the things they wanted (law, medicine, politics,etc;) and loved. The rewards followed.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 06:36 PM

Well, Dylan has to support ex-wives, but I am pretty sure he did the Victoria's
Secret ad for fun -- he once said many years ago that if he hadn't made it he would probably be selling women's lingerie, and I suspect he decided to make that into a fulfilled prophecy.

As someone who was once on the speaker's circuit very briefly, a number of those idiots who sell those crappy books on "In Search of Taoist Excellence" or "24 Ways to Organize Your Time" easily get $10,000 a performance, and they are complete charlatans, and cannot hold a tune.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: tarheel
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:19 PM

what the @#$*^% is a folk nazi!!!!

Subject: RE: Famous Folk Singers And Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM

Also, now that I think about it, you should probably be looking at some of the other crossover/multi-genre sorts of acts for guidance. Some ideas:

Ani di Franco has done what you seem to be looking to do quite masterfully.