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BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion?
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Subject: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:33 AM Because it sure seems to be among the old folks around here. The suffering of the 60s gets glossed over, and the romantic notion that everything was JUST FINE back then, is pretty damn frightening. Of course, if you were a white middle class kid dancing to the Dead, fucking your brains out, and living off other people so you didn't have to get a real, it was great. For awhile. I do agree that there were significant social changes for the better in the 60s. The civil rights movement was one, and the anti-war movement was another. But the other main positive social change movement for the better from the 60s that we keep trying to shove back under the rug today, was the sexual revolution, which opened the door for the women's movement in the 1970s, and led to some reforms that benefit women. Not many, but some. The 60s were a time of awakening to certain harsh realities, like the environmental disasters that were beginning to occur as a result of the nuclear power and petrochemical industries, as well as our beginning to understand the toll pollution and reckless over-development was beginning to cause. The 60s were very violent times in US society. And sadly, very little of the social changes we pushed for have been sustained. Thirty years of conservative politicians have rolled back the gains made in the 60s and 70s so far that the reactionary backlash movement in this country is now dismantling the New Deal as well. I much preferred the 70s, thank you very much. People were serious about bringing about the changes we desperately needed, and faced the challenges and roadblocks the status quo establishment put in the way of progress on the human liberation, environmental, civil rights, etc. fronts with hard work, rather than running away and hiding in a his youth culture scene like they did in the 60s, whether they took drugs or not. I too got sucked into the new age crap for awhile, but it wasn't long before I realized how self-serving it all was, how idiotic it was! Just a bunch of made up mumbo jumbo! At least astrology had a respectable past, being tied to the ancient art of astronomy. But the gross distortions and misinterpretations of the Hindu and Buddhist religions was astoundingly widespread in the 60s. Depressingly widespread. And how about the "God is dead" thing? The Jesus trippers. The creepy Manson types that were crawling around. The people who victimized so many. But the rose colored glasses and contact and or drug highs made it all go away when you put Jefferson Airplane on the turntable? I guess that doesn't surprise me about a lot of people who post here. So many people here have nothing but scorn for critical thinkers, and people who refuse to be go along with the herd mentality. I believe the 60s flower children types are the people who grew up to become the middle class nice people who are tyrannizing our society today, and who handed all the hard won victories right back to the status quo establishment, and have allowed the roll backs of the gains we made. I also believe that if they voted at all, they likely voted for Bush or Kerry, not "Nobody for President". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Wesley S Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:47 AM Another toll post from a guest. I guess that won't stop folks from posting to it however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:52 AM I was a 60s hippie, Guest. Big time. I decided to grow up and deal with reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:55 AM Wesley, you are wrongly using the word "troll". Expressing an opinion you and some others who post here don't agree with isn't trolling. It is expressing a controversial opinion and/or a dissenting view for the purpose of furthering a discussion. Looks to me like you are going to try and use name calling to shut down the conversation, instead of ignoring it if it bothers you. That is your prerogative, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:05 AM I was a sixties hippie, Guest. Small time. I grew up, and continue to be one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: alanabit Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:05 AM If Wesley was using the word "toll" in the sense that Germans use it (an adjective meaning "great" or "wonderful") I would go along with it as an ironical statement. If I am going to get into a discussion like this - which could tempt me - I would at least like to know who I am taking to. (A psuedonym is perfectly acceptable). I may not see eye to eye with Martin Gibson, but I do at least have some idea of who he is and what he stands for, because I am able to identify him (or his persona) from previous posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Wesley S Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM A large percentage of BS threads are started for the purpose of starting an argument - not a discussion. Nothing will be solved. You'll get your argument - but what's the point ? To me it's a big waste of time. But please - go ahead if it suits you. Have a great time. I'm outta here. While we're at it - how about those Germans from the 30's ? Weren't they bad people to start World War II ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:08 AM I thought wesly was talking about a toll road..... don't tolls go up after the first of the year? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:19 AM Not everyone starts threads about controversial subject matter just to argue Wesley, so perhaps you could slow down your rate of leaping to conclusions and rushing to judgment. I started the thread because the aspects of the 60s I find most compelling and interesting isn't being discussed in the other threads currently floating around at the moment. The question I'm asking in the thread title is legitimate, in light of the recent threads here. I believe there are people who came of age in the 60s and afterwards who post here, who seem to view the 60s as the high point of civilization, if we are to take their words at face value. I am always curious to find out the hows and whys of people who refuse to accept that the negative aspects of things, and only wish to look at, discuss, accept the positive. It seems to me there are a lot of 60s Pollyannas here, and they seem to view the 60s with the same moral righteousness as many a fundamentalist Xtian views the Reagan era. So how's that for a comparison? The Reagan 80s fundies and the Hippie 60s liberals. Both share the same zeal for their era and their era's morality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: MMario Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:40 AM dancing to the Dead, fucking your brains out, and living off other people so you didn't have to get a real (Job?) well - I can't think of anyone who fits that stereotype - and I WAS a iddle class white kid in the '60's. So I'd have to disagree with your premise and with your stated reasons for posting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Biskit Date: 30 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM Well MMario, I am absolutly guilty of the first two, I suppose three if I'm supposed to be guilty of being a middle class white kid in the 60's But I was raised on a farm so,..I always had a real job. Peace! through understanding ~Biskit~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:48 PM Well, I'm still a 60's hippie, GUEST, and, yeah, yer roight, the 60's were purdy frantic... and violent... But like they say: No change without pain... Lots of us got our consiousness jacked up where it needed to be to fight a lifelong fight against racism, sexism and the military industrtial complex... Did we win? No, but we sure didn't loose either... Yeah, 60's hippes weren't the problem. It was those folks in the 60's who thought theywere hippies 'cause they were gettin' high. Big whop! Or getting laid. Make that another big whop... Lots of us are still around with out poilitcus intact, thinking globally and acting locally. And,yeah, I'll continue being in the streets, just as I was prior to Bush's messed up invasion of Iraq, and there were lots of us and still are... Peace thru Resistence Bobert (old hippie and proud of it, gol dang it...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:51 PM No sixties person worth his salt was ever a hippy. MY 1960s years were literary, intellect and coffeehouses which means a wide awake and caffeinated quest for folksongs. It was BEAT, yes--but not hippy. Hippy meant whatever it meant. I enjoyed the folkie bars and nightlife, but after a point, I decided it was in my family's interest to hold onto my driver's license and not drive drunk or doped up--. And sometimes it feels that only I am left, alone, to tell thee.-----So many good singers and friends died in a numbed stupor. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 04 - 09:53 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Rapparee Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:56 PM Gee, I was a lower-middle class kid (at best) during the '60s. I didn't dance to the Dead, I didn't fuck my brains out, and I partly paid for college by being in the National Guard. I also worked on college work-study, made and set tombstones, assistant-managed a bookstore, helped deliver milk, did inventory for stores, and other such things. Didn't make me a conservative, didn't make me a liberal. It did make me care about the folks who sweat when they work, the folks who only ask for a fair shake, the enlisted people in the military, and others like these. I've always felt that the "hippies" were really an invention of the media. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:06 AM "RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion?" You feel like you're in a church? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,psychadelic sally Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:24 AM i was a hippie, except for me in oz it all happened in the early 70s. learnt how to make yoghurt, make ricotta cheese, tie dye clothes, print silk screened tshirts, cook with brown rice, live in communes (and in a teepee) and meditate. worked as an illustrator/cartoonist, did stand up comedy, wrote funny plays for kids. did face painting and body painting, read carlos castenada and zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, gabriel garcia marquez and mad magazines. worked for prison reform (with substantial achievement) and housing reform (with substantial achievments. all those extra things (women against global violence, reclaim the night, movement against uranium mining, anti police verbals campaign) and brought up three kids. allthat stuff was a lot more interesting than lying around watching tv and listening to headbanger music. so what's the prob? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:20 AM It could well be. Still, there are worse religions;at least Hippies are free spirited types who go around hugging trees and not serious death and destruction merchants like ******** (insert your own choice of religion). Any Hippies still around India at the moment? Or maybe Manhattan or Paris taking in the whole cultural kick with briefcase and cellphone in hand.God Bless Capitalism for making the Hippies wash and shave! Happy New Year. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:49 AM Have you considered getting therapy over this, Guest? The media invented hippies. Then a lot of kids went out and imitated what the media had told them about. The same thing is happening now, only what the media is inventing now is EVEN WORSE! Just look at the idiotic role models you are presented with daily on TV, specially in music videos. Life used to imitate art. Now it imitates marketing schemes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: mack/misophist Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:34 PM During the 60's I was stationed at Treasure Island Naval Station in San Francisco, trying hard to be a hippy in my free time. The 'real' hippies I knew either had jobs or were students who had to maintain a decent GPR or go home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 05 - 12:10 AM "God Bless Capitalism for making the Hippies wash and shave!" I always did wash daily and the fire department makes me shave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:26 AM Hippies were invented by the same people who invented niggers, kikes and gooks. Nobody I knew called themselves a hippie. It was always other people trying to name something they didn't want to understand. Just another form of nasty name-calling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:45 AM Hear, hear, D'van. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:20 AM You are right of course Sidewinder. But I do wonder how many of them now vote Republican. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM Well, I fir one didn't mid the term hippie, d, but much preferred "freak"... It's all in the tone of voice an context anyway... Ol' hippie (freak) and proud of it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM Bobert...you...you...were a drug-crazed commie hippie freak? I could believe it of Brucie, but...oh, my world is shattered! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:16 PM I didn't mind being called a "freak" either when it meant that I was no longer considered a member of the establishment. Letting "your freak flag fly" was a way of showing society that you were not going to be 'sucked in' to commercial or political hype. It meant that you were an individual and not a member of the mindless masses. Being a freak in those days meant you could think for yourself. It meant that if was futile to "try to change the system from within". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM Them was the nicest things you ever said to me, Rap... Sniff... Somehow they just didn't sound so good when, upon returning from college in '67 my dad said the very samew thing... Power to the People... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM So we are admitting here the generation whos credo was "turn on, tune in and drop out". In effect; copped out and finished their education and bought the whole post war ideal of the wife and kids, and white picket fence they were rebelling against.And they use Beatle songs on Nike ads and make films about teenage angst (just like they did in the 50s) and own stocks and shares in GLOBAL Companies and spend endless hours reminiscing about a time that was only cool for musicians and artists because everyone else was, at best/worst in a drug enduced stupor.But as Ringo said "The Beatles when stoned only ever produced rubbish. But when they were straight they were the best band on earth." The labels are simply a process of disemination and some wear their badges with pride and others shy away and deny ever participating because to be successful "it's lonely at the top". Ask Mick Jagger (multimillionare) and Paul McCartney (billionaire) they achieved what they set out to do and have the spoils but what about the sheep ( how ya doin' man? ). Another flashpoint maybe? Happy New Year. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Jan 05 - 07:24 PM Sidewinder, how much money have you wasted on pot? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM Sidewinder: No offense, but if you bring sheep into this argument/debate, you and I are gonna have to step outside. I don't mind being called lotsa things--I'm a big boy and I can live with that. BUT, I am a Scottish-Canadian, and sheep are special to my ancestors. It gets very cold here during the winter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 01 Jan 05 - 07:49 PM "So we are admitting here the generation whos credo was "turn on, tune in and drop out". In effect; copped out and finished their education and bought the whole post war ideal of the wife and kids, and white picket fence they were rebelling against." IMO, the use of the word admitting is a bad choice. To quote Nero Wolfe, "It's a cheap lawyer's trick." I do not admit, sir. I avow, aver, declare, state, say, ofefer as an opinion or argue. I DO NOT ADMIT. Thank you for letting me get that little rant off my chest. Bruce PS The notion that people remain static over time is not very well thought out. It provides a 'damned if you do, damned if ya don't' supposition. It's a 'do you still beat your dog' type thing, and it has no place in civilized discourse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM Also, it is totally incorrect to assume to everyone reaching adulthood in the 60s was either a "hippie" or a protester of some sort. They weren't. Neither description was ever more than a small percentage of the total population under discussion. The Mudcat Cafe happens to have a greater percentage of both than the general population for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with the "music scene" of the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:25 PM Well, first for the "drop out" part... Yeah, but for the true-est ogf hippies it was drop out of a way of thinking or set of values (or lack thereof) that the establishmnet had programed into its popoluation... I think make on all the anit war protest and civil rights protests and community organizing and don't see that as dropping out... Yet it were the true hippies that were doing this... But more importantly, it's not what we did in thre 60's but what we have done since... Lots of us didn't buy into the establishment model... And those who did really didn't get the drop out part of the movement... I'd like to say that there are many of use who have been true to our dropped outed-ness in the career choices we've made, the way we conduct ourselves, the way that we still get involved in trying to make the world a little better (even if it's in our own neighborhood) and yet maintain the courage to speak up when racism or injustice rears its ugly head... I'm not going review my own life here (but many of you all know some of the things I have done and continue to do but) can say that I'd like to think myself as one who has stayed dropped out in an activist way... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: dianavan Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM Thank-you, Bobert! I hitch-hiked from Ireland to Morocco on money I saved working as a claims clerk for Medicare. My first act of dropping-out. Moving to an island was a second way of dropping out. I dropped out by giving birth at home, eating organic food, refusing to shop at Safeway, never eating at McDonald's, selling my car, growing my vegetables, baking my bread and hauling water. I also chopped wood. I dropped out by living on a boat. I dropped out by owning my floating home and not paying taxes. I drop out everytime I go against the status quo. I sold my car. I encourage environmental sustainability, recycling and walking. I try not to leave a very big footprint. I strive to make this a better world for all. I'm also an educated, working adult that contributes to my community. I haven't changed my attitude much, its just that I'm not as visible. A hip attitude might just mean you're on the forward edge of the wave and happy being there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:36 AM I think it is great you're all so grounded in your individual lives and are articulate enough to put forward your views on how a wide ranging observation I made either stirred or offended you.Sorry about the sheep Bruce, it is a well worn metaphor that one I know.I was really thinking of the ex hippies who work in marketing and the arts these days and are ploughing the depths of low culture and reaffirming their own parents life aspirations to feather their own nests.For example the "New Woodstock" was merely an excercise in monetary gain and paid no heed to aesthetic values or the opportunity to achieve communal positivity or anything positive for that matter. Is there any wonder the kids went into destroy mode; all the hippies were saying it's a real happening experience and you should really go with it; and the kids get there and are thoroughly exploited micro and macro economically. Are we all a bit clearer on my original point now or do we require another example? Best Wishes Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:12 AM I get your point S-Winder and couldn't agree with it more... There were lots of wantabees in the movenment who never got beyond the sex, drugs and rock-n-roll... Those were just sidehows for those of us, like dianavan, who actually *got it* and haven't bought back into the corportae model... I can't believe that Steve Earl has sold his song "The Revoution Starts Now" to Chevrolet, 'er football 'et whatever... I can't believe that corporate America has taken out sideshows and used them to market crap to people that these people really don't *need*... But there is promise in the numbers of folks who did slip thru Boss Hog's corporate/coneume/consume/consume net in the 60's... In almost any city you find food coops and community gardens and farmers markets... You find people sharing housing and sharing resources and conserving... And 2 years ago, when it was time to take to the streets in D.C. to try to stand in Bush's way ot invading Iraq, we were out there in the streets with our kids and grandkids... And it was a beatiful testament to just how much *drop-out stick-um* power the 60's movement had on millions of folks who to this day just don't buy into the establishment's story... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:37 AM What a coup I've found another star who knows what I am talking about.Thanks Bobert for the meeting of minds I see that you are still flying the flag for Peace, Love and Unity. I am not a great admirer of Steve Earle but like the odd song i.e Justice in Ontario, but the selling of his song for advertising purposes does reiterate my earlier assertions against the so called standard bearers for the Hippie ideal to a degree.I bought the remixed version of "Double Fantasy" not so long ago and there is an interview on it, just before the late lamented Lennon was murdered, where he lays claim to the Yuppie movement and seems proud to do so. I am a Lennon worshipper but found myself being totally disgusted by his remarks and feeling cheated into believing in a man who sang about no possessions (but lived like a king) and Give Peace a Chance (but allegedly funded terrorist activity on a minor level).So, and I am sure Bruce will appreciate this, when I use sheep as a metaphor I do consider myself one to a point."Don't follow leaders, avoid the Pawking Meters". Best Wishes Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:08 AM Well, one thing I learned about John Lennon is that he'd say just about anything he wanted... He was probably the father of shock jockism... Yeah, I loved John but, hey, he wasn't the spokesan of the counter-culture... Far from it... He was no Dan Berrigan, or Martin Luther King, or Tim Hayden, or, or... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:23 AM Funny. I never did see what others saw in Lennon. None of it, good or bad. I see now where Sidewinder is coming from and I agree. Much of the 1960s and early 70s was S, D, R and R. But then much of every decade has been that. In fact, much of history has been that. A scenario I would love to see is this: Million-selling CD. Most of it really good songs--and no, I am not naive enough to think best sellers have to be good--and the artist makes a bundle. Having done that, s/he then lets advertising companies purchase usage rights to some of the material. The money from that is donated to research on MD, MS, Hanson's Disease, congenital birth defects, AIDS, like that. But I think that doesn't happen too often. I was a bit disappointed that the world didn't turn out the way I had hoped, but then I didn't turn out the way I had hoped, either. We can and do fall short of our dreams. I have done lots of jobs in my life, not all of them nice or genteel. However, I still write letters to MPs about social justice issues. I still vote the way I did in the 60s--never win, but I vote for 'peace' candidates anyway. Have I sold out? Probably. Hell, I pay taxes. That's gotta mean yes, I did. But have I left behind the values I like to think I had in the 1960s? No, not really. I have given up drugs. Not the rock and roll. And the sheep stays. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:48 AM First Bobert ma man, ya gots your TH's confused--that's Tom Hayden and Tim Harden. Second, you stake this claim: "In almost any city you find food coops and community gardens and farmers markets... You find people sharing housing and sharing resources and conserving... And 2 years ago, when it was time to take to the streets in D.C. to try to stand in Bush's way ot invading Iraq, we were out there in the streets with our kids and grandkids... And it was a beatiful testament to just how much *drop-out stick-um* power the 60's movement had on millions of folks who to this day just don't buy into the establishment's story..." That's all very nice Bobert, but none of the things you list can really be attributed to 60s hippie culture, or even such a thing as a hippie aesthetic, if there ever could have been such a thing. Anti-establishment political activism had a long, glorious life prior to the 60s, and many of us would argue, it was the 60s hippie movement that ended up selling us out in every decade since with their "can't we all just love each other and get along" attitudes. And the back to the land movement WAS NOT the same movement as the radical environmental movement--and please note the word radical. I'm not talking about Nature Conservancy, WWF, and other extremely wealthy "pro-compromise with industry" Beltway stalwarts. Hell, most of the civil rights movement has also sold out--look at what so many of the former glorious leaders of the movement have become! So please, scale back your claims to fame to a bit more reasonable scale, will you? The 60s wasn't the birth of a progressive movement, it was pretty much the demise of it. I became an environmentalist, in large part, because I was so disgusted by my hippie friends' callous and cavalier attitudes towards the environment, especially their serious problems with trash management! Like someone said around here recently--trips to places like San Francisco's Haight were trips to a ghetto. Frankly, I never in my life aspired to living a lifestyle like that, much less raise children in it. If you want to know how successful the 60s zeitgeist was, just take a gander into any American high school, and see how well the flower children raised their kids. But be forewarned--the results can be shocking to people with rose colored glasses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Rapparee Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM Tom Hayden and his ex-wife, Jane, sold out. So did Abie Hoffman. So did a whole bunch of others. So did Robert Southey and William Wordsworth. ...We are bought, we are sold for English gold/Such a parcel of rogues in a nation. GUEST, when you can no longer act nationally you can act locally. I happen to know that Bobert is. Brucie is. Dianavan is. Ellenpoly is. Others are, and I try to. GUEST, in 1971 I was living in Ohio, literally minutes from Kent State University. An acquaintance, who was at KSU at the time the Ohio Guard collapsed, showed me pictures he'd taken that day of the incident. Pictures that were taken from him (and later returned) by the FBI (he still had the negatives). He wasn't a professional photog, so I doubt that you've ever seen them (and I've lost track of him). But I can tell you: such protests as had gone before died on May 4, 1970, in a barrage of .30 caliber and .45 caliber bullets. So some truly went underground and kept the dream, but the vast majority gave up on it and now drive beemers or worse. You'll excuse me from joining you on the picket line (although I would join Bobert or Brucie or Dianavan or others). You can call me a coward, but unless you truly know what massed unit fire (as it's called) can do, and know it from your own experience, I'll continue to work for change as I have been. You do it your way, and I'll do it mine. And I also think that you'd better differentiate between the "hippies" and the actual protestors. They were NOT necessarily the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:43 AM Wake up. It's now 2005. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Rapparee Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:02 AM Right, MG. That's why I'm not doing picket lines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:18 AM Not necessarily directed at you Rap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM Actually, I think the hippie movement did have a lot to do with the ultimate formation of the food coop movement. I wouldn't give them credit for anything besides that though. Community gardens, just as a for instance, were around long before the 60s, as were farmers markets. I would also credit the back to the landers *partially* with involvement with the organic food movement. But there were many others involved in the sustainable agriculture movement besides the hippies, so I wouldn't give them full credit for that one. But the food coop movement we know today can likely be traced back to roots in the 60s counter cultural groups in the San Francisco area especially. There were food buying clubs which proceeded them, but nothing like the food coop movement we know today. That is probably the hippie movement's greatest contribution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM That, and making drug dealers very wealthy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM I don't mind in the least when splendidly talented and creative people who have contributed much to the society of their time get well paid for it. If they get rich from it, I don't mind that either. Dylan deserves every dollar he ever made, and so do the other great musicians who have written and performed wonderfully. And there's another thing: Every generation, no matter what its credo, has a certain number of lowlife individuals, bottom feeders, shallow minds, and such. To then blame that whole generation for the crummy behaviour of their lowest common denominator is fatuous and pointless. Be that as it may, here's what I remember that most irritated me at the time about the quasi-hippies, the great hairy pretenders that I had to put up with in the late 60's and early 70's... 1. Their positive worship of shallow drug experience, to the point that they made some kind of weird religion out of it. 2. Their general self-righteousness and pretensions of superior morality, based on nothing but a bunch of empty rhetoric, devoid of actual committment or responsibility to effecting any real change in themselves OR society. 3. Their lack of respect for whole groups of other people based on such insubstantial notions as their age (people "over 30"), their financial status, their job, etc... (I myself was guilty of those prejudices to some degree). 4. Their apparent intent to reduce the spoken language to about 35 or less barely articulate words and expressions, such as..."Far out...", "Yeah, man...", "Oh, wow...", "Heavy..." etc... 5. Their laziness and sense of self-entitlement... 6. Their sheer stupidity, armoured and reinforced by hollow conformity to the norm of their peer group... I am proud to say that although I had very long hair in the 70's, and was very politically radical, I did not empathize with much of the idiocy that I am describing above, but detested it and resisted it strenuously, and so did many others in that age group. There were a great many excellent people in that generation, people who were very articulate, not wrapped up in drug use to the exclusion of having a real life, and not just mouthing empty slogans without bothering to look further than the end of their noses. You can damn any generation easily. Just select its laziest and most irresponsible members, and then say that "that was all there was to that generation". Not so! I am very proud of what we did in the 60's! The idiots then were just like the idiots now. They were extremely noticeable. That is the nature of idiocy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM Yeah. Michael Moore is really noticable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:07 PM Now, now, Martin... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:23 PM Yo GUEST, Guess you weren't in Richmond, Va. in the 60's... Beyond the sex, drugs and r & r, we oganized lots of cool stuff, including a food coop, the Fan Free Clinic which still operates today... We hooked up with hippies out in Hanover and Hendrico counties who had small farms and had a hippie veg-wagen... We did draft counseling... We orgainized the Free University, of which I was the promotion manager, and provided free cousres in all kinds of stuff that had nuthin' to do with s,d or r&r... Plus, we had our own underground neswpaper, The Richmond Chronicle which provided lots of counter culural activities and resources... We were allied with the Quicksilver Times in D.C. and there were folks in D.C. doing the same things... Now I appeciate yer posts for the most part, GUEST, but I think because we didn't win all the marbles doesn't mean we didn't have a lasting impact on society... And still at it, fir that matter... I'm one of the organizers of the local farmers market in Leesburg and spent many a Sunday aftetrnoon this past season either performing or leading music jams... We do what we can... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM "I believe the 60s flower children types are the people who grew up to become the middle class nice people who are tyrannizing our society today" The above is from the initial post on this thread. I never was a hippie--that is, I never called myself that or thought of myself as that. Over the years I suppose I have acted locally. I have responded to approximately eight hundred accident/fire/rescue scenes over the years, and while I do very much enjoy that kind of work, I enjoy more the fact that it helps others. It has always been volunteer for me, and I don't mind that over 500 of those calls have taken place between the hours of 5:00 PM and 6:00 AM or on weekends. I have had many meals interrupted--some Christmas, Thanksgiving and New Year's meals; birthdays and anniversaries--by the pager going off. And at this point I considered not posting what I wrote. Why? Because the person who started this thread has no qualifications he/she cares to share about him/herself. I see in the words s/he wrote that posting here is a waste of my time. GUEST: You don't know me at all. We likely never will meet. Maybe that's a good thing, because I have trouble seeing how you can be so hate-filled and angry with people you know nothing about. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Once Famous Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:51 PM I WAS a hippie. I had long hair, tye dye shirts,bell bottom pants, hung around Bizarre Bazaar in Old Town. I was outside the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago demonstrating. I sang and performed on my college campus on the moratorium day in 1970. I smoked a lot of dope. I saw Hendrix in concert. Saw The Who for the first time in 1969. I played in a country rock band and got high for every show. Got past that and grew up. Why can't you? You can't bring those days back. If you feel like a hippie because you hang around a farmer's market, that is just fucking amazing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:54 PM Never too late to be called a danged hippie, brucie... Yeah, there were lots of folks who for various reasons didn't make the party on time but have lived their lives serving others before self and to all those folks I can say, "Danged hippies". And so to you, brucie, my friend, ya might wanta sit down fir this 'cause it's hard the first time but get easier but... Danged hippie!!!! Jus' funnin wid ya pal but, hey, you do the crime (we v. me) you gonna do the time... Welcome... Sorry, but the free love gals just left but there may be a little smoke left on the table and feel free to crank up the stereo... but can ya ' wwear the headphones? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:05 PM If being a hippie means you care about others, then I'm a hippie. I would feel as if I was in good company. I have yet to judge people based on the length of their hair--or their lack of it. People are really about hearts and minds. In the 1960s, at various times, I had loooooong hair. At other times in life I have shaved my head. I wore a beard for a few years--mostly because I didn't like to shave--and now my face is clean-shaven (minimun every 24 hours--fire department regs and good common sense, because you can't get an airseal with hair on yer face, and positive pressure ventilation for H2S response be danged, it means ya don't want even the tiniest amount of that stuff getting into yer lungs because it stops the 'automatic' breathing response that humans have--and that means you get to lay somewhere experiencing the last few minutes of your life without being able to inhale). I guess I object to the tone of the GUEST who started this thread. We were damned to begin with, and I don't see it improving. When I quit teaching and fire fighting, I'd be happy to blow a splif with you. Gotta have Sara Lee cake though. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:17 PM Hey, brucie... When I get together with my ol' hippie friends hair, or lack there of, is always a fond topic of conversation... ...but it wasn't about hair, or pot, or sex. Music? Ahhhh, yeah it was about music in addition to the stuff it was really about... Sara Lee Cake works fir me just fine though recently a handfull of raisins works just as well and has the good carbs... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:42 PM OK, Bobert. You eat the raisins and I'll eat the Orange Sara Lee Cake. Or Banana. Or Chocolate. Or . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:40 PM Actually Bobert, I come from a part of the US that has historically been one of the hot spots for cooperatives, dating back a whole lot further than the "New Wave" cooperative movement resurgence of the 1960s, that rose alongside the New Left. I'm still a member of one of the original 60s food coops here in St. Paul, but I've also been a member of quite a few failed coops as well. The New Wave movement had it's roots in the 30s Farmer Laborer party/movement in MN, the socialist movements of North Dakota, and the other worker organized cooperatives popular around the country for decades prior to the 60s, including African American farmers organizing into food coops in the Reconstruction era. Around here, we had the Coopers of the 1880s, along with the Knights of Labor, the Workingmen's Union, and then by the 20s and 30s, many working folks around here sort of opted out of the AFL movement, stuck with the Wobblies, the miners, and did our own more socialist leaning sorts of cooperative organizing. It was the Minneapolis Coopers though, who formed the first food coop in Minnesota--the Minneapolis Cooperative Mercantile Company, based upon the Rochdale model. In addition to food and groceries, it also sold dry goods. They also founded a coop building and loan, to help finance the mortgages of coopers who worked in the neighborhood where the barrel factories were, founded coop laundries, coop neighborhood improvement associations to provid library books, loaner tools, etc. Eventually they branched out into other neighborhoods and cooperatives--a shoe store, tobacconist shop, and of course, the accident insurance coop. They were damn serious about it all too. Unlike their capitalist cooper counterparts, they banned alcohol and smoking from the shop floor, their meetings, etc. These were serious lifestyle pioneers as well, insisting upon discipline among the ranks in order to survive and create a new model for living and working. In the time it takes to crack an Ole and Lena joke, cooperatives were formed by city workers, cigarmakers, musicians, painters, shirtmakers, and printers. In fact, some of my 60s hippie friends were involved in the New Wave printing coop movement locally. Then the Knights came in and formed even more coops. Then they came up with the idea of forming a large, central wholesale coop "depot" for farmers to bring their goods to urban laborers, and vice versa. For while, the coopers were beating back the boss shops, but eventually they wereall driven into the powerful Knights union local to survive increased mechanization and the millers switching from using barrels for the flour to bags, which spelled the end of the independent cooperator coopers movement, even though they kept making barrels locally up until the 1930s. There were the dairy cooperatives started up in Wisconsin and Minnesota after the turn of the century too. And as a matter of fact, my own grandpa was one of the leaders of the Minnesota county creameries associations before they all got gobbled up by Land O Lakes. In fact, he was one of the leaders who did the price bargaining for the Minnesota farmers in the Chicago market, and due to the big mess created by a dairy war around these parts over fair milk prices, wars between farmers and the railroad, etc. he became a leader of the movement that formed the Midwestern Dairymen's Company in the 1920s. He lobbied locally, regionally, and nationally for passage of the Cooperative Marketing Act of 1926 on behalf of Minnesota & Wisconsin dairy farmers too. So you can see, with a fine long tradition of cooperative movement history here in my corner of the empire, it would be a tad arrogant to claim us hippies started it all in the 60s, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:14 PM Well, yes and no, GUEST...If Richmond, Va. were in Minnesota, yeah. But in the South, no... In the South coops were considered communism. When we organized something that you and your grand daddy knew as well as their own back hands we were fighting thru a lot of Southern Man prejudices and the thought that anything that made sense had to be communistic... Give us a little break in that we were doing something that, while common place in yer part of the world, was very new and scarey to the Old South... Bobert... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:42 PM Now c'mon Bobert, fess up. Y'all had the Readjustors 3rd party movement for awhile all the way back in the Reconstruction days, wasn't it? I'm sure there were other historic precendents in the southern states besides that one that comes to mind, when I should truly be in bed. And Bobert, don't forget--my ancestors here were fighting the robber barons of the railroad, timber, and grain industries. So hey--give credit where it is due. It was no more of a picnic organizing cooperatives here than it was in Virginia. Or have you forgotten the biggest government execution in US history happened here, when they hung 38 Mdewakanton Dakota on December 26, 1862 at Mankato (an event still mourned by the local Mdewakanton community each year? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:54 PM Shoot, GUEST, I musta been stoned during Reconstruction 'cause I don't remember much about it.... All I know is that when we fired up the Veg-Van, we had a bunch of "toothless wonders" all threatenin' to kill us 'cause it was communism... The punched holes in the tires. They beat up the drivers. They stole out stuff and threw it in the street... Welcome the the Capitol of the Confederacy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST,heric Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:04 AM You guys had a revolution about vegetables? (Tom Joad might approve. . . . I guess.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: dianavan Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:25 AM Guest - I got called a hippie once but my boyfriend pushed him to the wall and said, "She ain't no hippie and I ain't no peace freak." Then he dropped the guy. That was in 1968. Now do you get it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:39 AM I don't think anyone is trying to detract from the IWW or labour unions. However, they have usually been a 'closed shop' and as such, outside the experience of many folks. (I have been union for most of my life.) So, no, hippies didn't start the 'movement' such as it was. But then I don't think anyone's claiming they did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:44 AM And GUEST of a few posts above: You got a white beard by any chance? Only a few people I know have that kind of history at their fingertips. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:35 AM Don't need history at my fingertips brucie, I live among the people who's ancestors made it. And while we are talking commie head busting, we can talk about the Teamster trucker strike in Minneapolis in 1934 too. We actually HAD communist union leaders who had been thrown out of the AFL for their political views. Police opened fire on the pickets, martial law was declared, 4,000 National Guard were called out as strikebreakers. My brother is currently a member of that same union local. In the 20s, we had lynchings of blacks in Duluth. I mean, just cuz we're a blue state don't mean we're all nice and safe here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:38 AM To be a Communist is not a crime...unless you live in a place that is a de facto dictatorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:52 AM And brucie, the whole problem I have with the hippie worshippers is the fact they think they invented all this progressive stuff. Now, Bobert why don't you know the progressive history of your own people and place? It might not have been your family doing the progressive stuff (my grandpa for instance, ended up becoming a dairy creamery owner and business man and didn't support the Teamsters in 1934, despite his earlier involvement with the county creameries associations, etc) A man who don't know his history Bobert, is doomed to repeat it, as they say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: GUEST Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:54 AM And BTW, how is it that me knowing the history of my people and my place is such a bizarre idea to a group of people--folk music enthusiasts--purportedly interested in the past and in tradition. What, so long as it doesn't come with any history attached to it? Is that the deal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:15 AM Wow..... Heavy, man! Fa-a-a-r...out. Got smokes? (It's probably still a lot like that in Blind River...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Peace Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:28 AM GUEST: I don't know who you're pissed at, but I might be fairly accurate if I were to posit that you don't know very much history of the UFA Coop in Alberta--or the MP who was in Parliament in 1948--the only avowed Communist to sit in the Canadian House. Or the Red River Rebellion and the part Sir John A played getting Riel out of Canada. I don't think you're uninterested or uneducated because you likely don't know this stuff. It's relatively obscure. So is much labour history to most people. Don't wanna argue; just wanna say. You are painting with a pretty big brush. Might be nice if you'd be careful where you splatter the paint. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: riverblue Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM You're not alone.....Do you remember Charlotte's Web? Have you talked to Karen and Bill Howard's daughter (my sister) Lani, have you seen your name on our listed archives from Charlotte's Web? http://snapshotmusic.com How neat it is to see you're name. I know that you may not remember us little ones running around, but I feel like I've run into an old friend! I'm glad that you are well. And we are missing some amazing folk singers/musicians, I can name about 4 off the top of my head. Take care Jennifer http://www.snapshotmusic.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: CarolC Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM I've considered myself a hippie since I was about 15 (1971). To me, it was never about clothes, drugs, music, sex, or any of the cultural attributes people try to use to define the term. To me, being a hippie always meant, and still means valuing people more than things. I know that philosophy didn't start when the term "hippie" first came into use. But I like to think that anyone who had this philosophy prior to the time of the hippies was a hippie and just didn't know it. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:56 PM ". . . dancing to the Dead, fucking your brains out, and living off other people so you didn't have to get a real [job]." I was at the awkward age. I was too young to be a beatnik and too old to be a hippie. I was pretty--what they used to call--"straight arrow." Still am. I was right in the middle of the folk scene during the Sixties, and I only knew a handful of people who even came close to fitting the description quoted above. That's the kind of sterotypical picture that the media tried to paint back then. Not that there weren't some, but the noise made about them far exceeded their numbers. Most of the people I knew who even aspired to be "hippies" were high school kids who had bought the stereotype (from the media) and took to hanging around a few of the coffeehouses, making general pains in the ass of themselves by trying to be "cool." Most of them couldn't keep up with the conversation. The screwing, dope-smoking bunch (and granted, there were some) were emphasized all out of proportion in an attempt to discredit those folks who were into peace and civil rights. I was there. And you know what? I remember! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:13 AM Most people who were there remember. The only ones who don't, in fact, are those who are dead. The only thing I've forgotten is...what idiot started this thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Bobert Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 PM Don't put it on me, L-Hawk. I din't start it. Might of fact I don't want to talk about hippies no more... Most people don't even have a clue what hippies are/were anyway so if ya' can't even come up with a working definition then heck wid it... Though I gotta agree wid what CarolC said, 'cept fir me it was like '68... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Teresa Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM Ah well ... I love tie-dye, any kind of food, including veggie as long as it's hearty ... I can be pot-friendly although I don't smoke it because I get panic attacks if I do. I don't wear makeup or perfume, and don't do a lot of the glamor stuff that magazines and ads try to foist on a woman. So if that makes me a 'hippie', so be it. I'm too young for the ones in the 60s, but, though the 60s were a particular time period in which certain things happened, I believe counter-culture has been, is, and will be a constant part of society. sometimes it's just more prominent than other times. Teresa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: Amos Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM RELIGION Religion is a defense against having a religious experience. Joseph Campbell quoting Carl Jung The Power of Myth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 60s Hippie Worshipping a Religion? From: John Hardly Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:39 PM s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-n-n-n-n-n-nAPPPPP!!!!!!!!! |
