For those who hate RAP!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:37 AM

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:25 AM

You get a bazooka with which to nail the next boom car or hummer that passes by...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM

Oooh! Ooooh! I hate RAP!

What do I get?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM

Wow DW... you are quite a troublemaker aren't you!!! Imagine someone actually wanting to walk a new musical avenue and actually inviting others to explore it too! Shame on you DW.

( snicker )

Rory B at work

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:41 PM

You haven't really heard what Rap can be...until you have heard William Shatner do Rap. Indescribably awesome.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:38 PM

congratulations martin gibson on your immature responses. Perhaps this just shows that you acknowledge you are wrong, but cannot admit it?

It does not bother me, you may be immature if you wish.

However, the fact will always remain, that you personally do not like rap music, but that has nothing to do with there being some rap artists out there that are very good.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM

"'Ee, I am vexed!'.. Stanley Holloway

the UK's premier Rap artist.."

Now that's what I call RAP! Though I prefer
'Arold with an eyeful of 'arrer
on 'is 'orse with 'is 'awk in 'is 'and.

Have that happy new year, Punkfolkagreeablerocker!

Frank L.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkagreeablerocker
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:03 AM

apologies accepted all round then..???

i guessed the somewhat childishly daft 'silly person' dig
would be a nicely useable feedline for you..

isn't it all about maintaining a sound sense of good humour
in remote and easily misreadable internet board communications..

and very relevant to this thread,
arguably, the best positive rappers are also funny and astute
social satirists and comedians..
their anger tempered with humour..

QUOTE:

'Ee, I am vexed!'.. Stanley Holloway

the UK's premier Rap artist..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:34 AM

An equally good afternoon to you, punkfolkrocker.
Oh there was a mix up about exactly whom you were insulting?
That's why I usually quote either a name or part of the text - so people know who I am replying to.. I got the feeling, though, that at least one other person thought you were referring to Kendal. Please try to make yourself clear, then you won't be misunderstood.

Well, here I go, cutting and pasting again (fully in context as all my quotes have been)
"please calm down and spend more of your time
in threads that make you less excitable..

I dont know how old you are, or the state of your mental health..
but please be aware,
you are continuing to demonstrate that this topic
seems for you to be a trigger for irrationaly fixated obsessive behaviour.."

Well, I'm perfectly calm - I have not seen fit to demonstrate the usual signs of excitement like the continual bad language you use. I simply asked for people to show some tolerance for those they disagree with and you were the one who responded unreasonably. I'm 61 and still in complete control of my faculties - including the ability to communicate without insult.

If replying to your insults in a non-aggressive manner is "irrationaly fixated obsessive behaviour" then so be it. What, I must ask, does it make your replies to me.

That I have taken time to reply to you at all makes me a "silly person", I have no doubt is true - even a very silly person.

However, I'm fascinated, in my silly way, to know how carrying on a two sided conversation makes one of the conversationalists a "stalker". Or is it merely another sign that you cannot cope with people disagreeing with you?

Frank L.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:21 AM

cool foxy seminal folk rap track..

Must be Mr Fox;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:33 AM

BTW..EagleWing


please feel free to copy and paste my considered opinion
that you are a "silly person"
any where you like..

now back to that cool foxy seminal folk rap track..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkconcernedfocker
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:23 AM

good morning EagleWing

ok.. i also can copy and paste a quote from myself out of context
[which i will moderately censor for naughty language]



"..what..!!!!??????

what the fo*k are some of you people on..


..or on about..???


i'm one of the good guys.."


please calm down and spend more of your time
in threads that make you less excitable..

I dont know how old you are, or the state of your mental health..
but please be aware,
you are continuing to demonstrate that this topic
seems for you to be a trigger for irrationaly fixated obsessive behaviour..

take care..

[or maybe i should.. i've never had a stalker before..
weird...!!???]


ps.. i merely asked..
i never 'demand'..


besides which..

i was not replying to "From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:59 AM"

but to "From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:53 AM "

it is a merely simple coincidence that kendal posted 2 minutes before me
at 31 Dec 04 - 11:59 AM.. while i was still writing my reply,
clearly targeted, to GUEST 11:53 AM..

well hope thats cleared up then you silly person..

time for a nice mug of tea..
and a quick blast of Dave the gnome's recommended rap track..
conveniently at hand in my nearest pile of CDs...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Weasel Books
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:21 AM

To make sure they're still there....

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:39 AM

But why, why, oh why do they squeeze their bollocks all the time?
S:0)

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Weasel Books
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:47 AM

I am 21, likes music of all sorts, don't care very much for rap. Ok, some of it is good, most is abysmal, but it's not my thing. I do like to understand what it's about though. A few of my mates (Ethiopian) are rappers, who don't like most of what I listen to, but still respect different opinions.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:23 AM

punkfolkplacidrocker demanded:
"please re-read this entire thread carefully and note
that i only start from, and try to remain in,
a peacable and concillatory
neutral corner of the ring.."
He also accused me of singling him out for "hazily focused invective.."

OK - I've just re-read all my own posts on this thread and ask punkfolkplacidrocker to do the same and then to quote to me, verbatim, all the instances of invective, however focused, that he can find in them - whether aimed at him or anyone else.

Before I entered this discussion, Punkfolkrocker had already used such expressions as

"those supercilious diletante classical musician folkies
that stretch my tolerance levels.."

"..sounds like you're well over 40
and down to your last failing brain cell.."

"highly dubious intolerant supremacist characters
who take pround refuge in their version of its shadily retrogressive
traditionalist agenda
and inward looking social sub-culture.."

My own first contribution came after his insulting attack on Kendal - a man who I have had the pleasure of meeting (though only once). Kendal simply stated that "Rap is to music what graffiti is to literature." Hardly invective! And certainly not deserving of punk...'s "down to your last failing brain cell..". This was where I came in because, you see, I hadn't realised that this remark to Kendal was meant to be "a peacable and concillatory neutral corner of the ring.."

punk... also says "you are the one who brought an unneccessary 'fight' to me..
at an indecently late UK time of New years morning
when i was more than adequately wassailed on the SPIRITs
of new years celebration..
so dont be so surprised that my exasperated response
was expressed in a less than sober manner.."

Perhaps he was actually too well wassailed to have read my post accurately. I'm assuming, from he has written since, that the unnamed Guest I quoted was indeed he. In his direct reply to my pleas for tolerance to those he disagreed with I mentioned punk... simply because I was answering his attacks on other people. It seemed to me then (and he has confirmed it since) that people who had a different opinion from his own would be attacked by him. I pointed out that to question someone's intelligence for simply saying he didn't like RAP was, perhaps, not a very intelligent thing to do. He saw that as "invective" while his own insults were "peaceful and concilliatry".

Unfortunately, since that time, people on both sides of the argument seem to have felt the necessity for simply hurling insults. I have never said that RAP was either "C**p" nor "s**t". I simply don't find it has the same effect on me as a good piece of folk, trad jazz or classical music.

Once again I simply say, let's discuss the music without insulting those we disagree with.

Frank L

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 03:57 AM

This is an exercise in futility. Yelling our opinions at each other is stupid; I'm outta here.
Kendall, not Jacqui

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:20 PM

Why, Martin, how positively unfolk-like!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:30 PM

s6k

I live in an urban area and have teenagers in the house.

I have heard all of these artists.

They suck.

So do you.

Get your fucking hearing checked.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkplacidrocker
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:21 PM

hello EagleWing ..

please re-read this entire thread carefully and note
that i only start from, and try to remain in,
a peacable and concillatory
neutral corner of the ring..

until either confronted by statements of such astonishing conservative ignorance
that i find it necessary to make the least undiplomatic comment
i can manage under the circumstances..


or called out by my name and challenged by anothers belligerent
insult or confused misreading of my objections/objective..

also bear in mind you came here singling me out
for your hazily focused invective..

you are the one who brought an unneccessary 'fight' to me..
at an indecently late UK time of New years morning
when i was more than adequately wassailed on the SPIRITs
of new years celebration..
so dont be so surprised that my exasperated response
was expressed in a less than sober manner..


i honestly dont care if you like rap or not..
..and if you really are'nt 'racist' to even the smallest degree
of unconcious hostility to other cultures.. Great!!!!

but face up to the fact that you ARE one of the individuals
who only came here to rant in an negatively,
irrational, ill considered..
and sustained over reaction..

whats your problem..!!??

what was your personal oversensitive need and motivation
to come here and expose your continuing apparent insecurites
to public scrutiny..???????



..i'm sure all dwditty wanted to do
was bring the name of a positive rap artist
to the attention of any mudcatters
who might be positivly interested..

thats all..

but this thread certainly seems to have 'incited'
some odd reactions from less rational representitives
of the folk community...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:40 PM

Umm, btw, has anyone gone over to www.k-osmusic.com to give a listen to this guy?

Thought so.

dw

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM

S6K says "Again, this is because the poster knows nothing about the genre. artists such as Run DMC, Public Enemy, etc, have MUCH depth. Chuck D is a genius, no matter what your opinion on rap music is."

No, I don't think so. I think the afore-mentioned poster finds what he has heard of the genre to be monotonous and lacking in depth because all the RAP he has heard has been monotonous and lacking in depth. Are you suggesting that in order to make such an observation he must listen to every rap recording ever made until he finds one he likes? As you, yourself, have suggested he is entitled to his opinion and to express it. Kendon has not once made accusations about singers or other peoples' opinions. All he has done is stated his opinion. Perhaps it might be suggested that you have no right to criticise him until you have read War and Peace (and the rest of Tolstoy)and listened to every classical recording ever made. Yes, I know it's a stupid suggestion but it makes as much sense as your claim above.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:40 PM

Willie O said,
"Just for the record, I stand by my remarks. Please note I used a qualifier, I never said that anyone who says they hate rap is a racist.

But there is a rather short step between xenophobia and racism.

Think about it."

Well, I'm thinking about it. Xenophbia is fear of foreigners or foreign places. Who's shown that they are afraid of either?

(Not that I agree with the references to no good black singers - I'm not sufficiently up with the scene and can't even say that I know how many good contemporary white singers there are.)

Frank E.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

Yesterday, S6K said "Also, for most of the rest of you, music is universal, people have a right to like what they want, they dont just have to like folk and listen only to folk. music is supposed to unite us not make us have petty arguments!"

You obviously haven't been following the argument too closely. Those who don't like RAP, on the whole, have simply said they don't like RAP. It's those who DO like RAP that have felt the need to insult and swear at those with whom they disagree. Look for all the posts that contain the word "f**k", for instance - all used against those who simply say they don't like RAP. And I was greeted with

"EagleWing ....

what..!!!!??????

what the f*ck are some of you people on..


..or on about..???"

Simply because I said, as you have, that people have a right to their opinions.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:16 PM

I don't like (most) rap. I think some of it is actually good, though. But I don't listen to it enough to have more than a fragmentary awareness of what's available out there. I mostly hear it emanating from "boom cars" as they go by, killing small animals with the base frequencies...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

100 ????

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:05 PM

"yeah, about as much depth as a crack in the sidewalk.
Rap is complete shit."

This only goes to prove your ignorance. Tell me, how much do you know of rap music, and how many artists have you listened to? 1 maybe 2 ?

Your comment is an opinion. You have every right to think that rap is shit, and the majority of the modern stuff is.
You have no right however to make an analysis on a genre that you obviously know nothing about. Seeing as this is the case, why then do you think that just because you dislike the genre, that there can be no credible artists?

I think country music is shit, but i respect the fact that there are certain artists in that genre that are geniuses and innovators.

If you dislike rap, fine, go ahead and say that, and then leave it at that. Do not go on to try and make out that there is not a single rap artist who was ever influencial or innovative.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

I can't help out on this one...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:54 PM

Does anyone know? Will they share the secret with Jacqui and me?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM

Perhaps, but what does that have to do with rap sucking the big strap-on dildo?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,One who Knows
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

Elvis sucks and so do those who try so hard to sound like him.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM

yeah, about as much depth as a crack in the sidewalk.

Rap is complete shit.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

neither do Run DMC or Public Enemy. Like I said, you cannot tar the entire genre with the same brush.

"Age has nothing to do with it. I find rap to be monotonous and lacking in depth"

Again, this is because the poster knows nothing about the genre. artists such as Run DMC, Public Enemy, etc, have MUCH depth. Chuck D is a genius, no matter what your opinion on rap music is.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM

I was fairly of the view that rap was pretty pointless, until I heard some Senegalese. Their idea of rap is different, more lyrical, melodic, and they don't go calling their women 'bitch' either.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:27 AM

L'il help?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:26 AM

Rats.

(a href="www.k-osmusic.com">Trying again

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:25 AM

Once again, I was only trying to offer a link to some rap music that I found quite enjoyable...and rap is not even in my top 10 styles of music.

Go to: K-OS and give it a try, if you care to. Click the mouse over at about the center of the graphic to open the listening station. Scroll down to the second album. Try Hallelujah or Commandante. Maybe you will be surprised...maybe not.

I guess I won't even bother to post a link to some Tuvan throat singing...another genre people love to hate. Or Joseph Spence's vocals.

dw

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: John C.
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:23 AM

That is exactly how I feel, Jacqi C. !

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:26 AM

Kendall here. Age has nothing to do with it. I find rap to be monotonous and lacking in depth. I felt the same way when I was a teenager about rock and roll.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:58 AM

Why keep an open mind? Well for me there's but two reasons. First, I'm not anxious to become any kind of prejudicial bigot, and I kind of like that "do unto others" stuff. Second, I've often found my mind can be changed about music. Banjo music for instance, I love it now where I hated it in my teens and twenties. Other acquired tastes: Pierre Bensusan, even (gasp) opera.

Mind you, the odds aren't great that rap will grab my heart, too monotonal for my liking. I don't care much for that microtonal stuff either...I guess it's the middle of the (tonal) road for me.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: John C.
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:51 AM

Oh dear, I can't seem to let this go! I suppose what has really got to me is the accusations of racism from some of the pro-rappers out there. I also note that many of those people also appear to be both explicitly and implicitly ageist (you don't appreciate this particular musical form because you're old).
Leaving aside the question of ageism, all I'm going to say about racism is that I have always opposed it and, like the correspondent above, absolutely refuse to judge a person by the colour of their skin or their ethnic background; I will say no more for fear of being accused of protesting too much.
We members of the 'anti-rap' faction (if we can be characterised as such) are also accused of having closed minds - well please consider the following: my interests are folk song, identifying and photographing wild plants, science fiction and studying the history and cultures of the Balkan region - presumably that makes me a sad (old) git in the eyes of some of the pro-rappers. I can see a sneer forming on your lips as you read this so don't deny it! But don't worry I'm not about to demand that you try any of these things nor am I going to accuse you of having a closed mind if you don't want to try them.
Nevertheless, you may have sampled some of the things listed above and may, as a result, find that you are resolutely opposed to them - that's OK you have every right to do so. Furthermore you're not a 'thought criminal' for speaking out - please grant me the same right!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:53 AM

What is the definition of rap then? Is it the foul mouthed young man in the prison baggies scratching mixes of others music or is it the modern poet quoting clever wordplay over an equaly clever electronic instrumentation? Surely, like folk, we are trying to define the undefinable.

BTW try getting hold of Mr Fox's 'Aunt Lucy Broadwood'. 1970's Folk act groundbreaking rap record? Surely not;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:34 AM

pdq, to "pull up alongside me" with ANY music BLARING, does not show good taste, only lack of manners, and a questionable I.Q.

I remember when rock and roll first hit the scene; I didn't like it then, and I detest it now so it's highly unlikely that more exposure to that type of air pollution will cause me to change my mind.That is my opinion, and no one has a right to question my IQ because of it.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:21 AM

But still no-one's answered the Big Question posed by Jacqui. Why do they hold their meat-and-two-veg all the time? Is is the funky groovy street modern version of the finger in the ear? LOL!
S:0)

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:04 PM

There is a big problem that people have between not liking an artist, and whether the artist is good or not.

I do not like mozart, but the man is a genius.
I do not care much for Richard Thompson, however, I love folk music, and Thompson is also a genius. I can acknowledge this without particularly liking each persons work.

This is where people end up going wrong. They don't like rap, so every rap artist is crap. this is incorrect. If you dont like them, thats fine and is your opinion, but you cannot say they are crap.

I personally dont even like rap that much, there are maybe 3 or 4 artists who i quite like, but i know there are several who have made spectacular music with the genre.

I would also point out that I dont believe there has been a credible rap artist in the last 10 years, rap seems to have evolved into something hideous... like pop music. The majority of rap artists today shouldnt even be allowed to call themselves rap artists, and they are the equivalent of westlife in the pop world. This does not help the genre and spawns many comments like "all rappers rap about is homophobia and killing people" which has been seen in this thread.
The comment is untrue, and it is only because of modern rap that people think this.

But there are great artists out there in rap, and you all have every right to not like rap, and not seek out these artists, but you should all recognise that they are there, and not everyone in the genre is C-Rap

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Pa Hillbilly..
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM

yep.. they'm all crawling out the vittle garden on this hot arguementing..

ma.. get the shotgun..

that darn blasted grizzly bear is clambering in the window
to steal my new groovacious mo' fo' Dr Dre CD..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolksensitiverocker
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM

.. 2nd or 3rd day into the new year..

and i surely cant be the only one here who senses a lot of confusion
and unchilled vibes on this topic..????

happy new 2006... and at least 200 years forward into the future..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolk and a little bit of rap rocker
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:12 PM

Auggie..

"Why must we "keep an open mind"?"

errrmmm..???


sorry Auggie for being slightly sarcastic..

its born out of bemusement more than any need to be unfriendly
to anybody here..

but i genuinely dont understand much
of what you are hoping to add to this discussion..



but i somehow still get the feeling you might be one of the good guys
on this issue..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:36 PM

When was the last time somebody in a black-out, lowrider Chebby pulled up beside you and blasted out Brahms at 122dB?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:02 PM

Excellent! Good to see real feelings and passion for different types of music. To carry on a bit, what does everyone feel about the undeniable fact that much of rap, apart from the venal and misogynistic mature of many of the songs, portrays pretty much EVERY male rap star as having a (potentially) violent attitude, and holds this up as in some way laudable? Far too many young working class (Yes, just like I grew up!) males, black and white, are given an absurd view of the world, where parroting out the songs and wearing hoodies etc. will in some way replace the need to work in the real world. The rap life (Hope you see what I mean!) is not a valid long term one for the average kid on the street.I'm tempted to say it betrays working class people, almost as if it were planned to keep them in their place by denying them chance to improve their lot.... Too much to say in one post.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Auggie
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:01 PM

Why must we "keep an open mind"?

Rap isn't anything new, not in 2005. Why are we not allowed to form an opinion about something based on what we already know. Must we each be like the government and set up our own blue ribbon extended study panel before we are allowed to discriminate between what we enjoy and what we don't?

If Rap is really that great and I miss it because my "mind is closed", what the hell is it to you? It's my loss. If anything, it's your gain because old farts like us won't drive up the price of live performances by buying up all the good seats at ridiculously inflated prices (tried buying Paul Simon or Paul McCartney tickets lately?).

I'll admit I don't know everything about rap. I don't know everything about George Bush or Tony Blair either, but I've heard enough of all three to know what I think of them.

Like the optimistic little girl confronted with the huge pile of horse manure, there may indeed be a pony in there somewhere, but I'll be damned if I'm going to spend much of my remaining free time exploring either situation.

I hope you enjoy riding your horse. Please don't be offended if some of us would rather walk.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 05:09 PM

hey Mooh..

that fair enough..

at least you're keeping an open mind..

and maybe prepared for the possibility
you may one day
be surprised to find yourself liking something
you so far have a personal aversion to..

that all anyone can ask of anyone really..


"and read these sort of discussions with amusement"

..and keeping your sense of humour in these situations
is paramount..

nice one..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Mooh
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 04:52 PM

I heartily dislike rap, do everything possible to avoid it, and read these sort of discussions with amusement. Every so often some rap comes my way via a compilation cd or a referral by someone promoting it as "good" rap. Nothing has changed my mind yet...but never say never I guess. In the meantime I'm not required to acquire a taste for rap any more than I'm required to acquire a taste for squash, which I also heartily dislike.

If the foregoing makes me a dinosaur, that's fine, there aren't many of us left. Maybe we need a union.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 03:52 PM

"If you want to discuss staying power, consider Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin etc. Can you vision any rap that will last 200 years? I sure as hell can't"

So your argument is that there are no rap artists that exist today that will be remembered in 200 years time, therefore rap is rubbish?
well that is a pathetic argument.
just because something does not have staying power, does not mean it is not groundbreaking and good.

And anyway, artists like Run DMC etc WILL be remembered in 200 years time. Music is passed down through generation to generation and so long as people introduce their kids to the music they like, artists can now stay around forever.
This is one of the beauties of music

For gods sake, just look at how many teenagers nowadays are turning back to Led Zeppelin and real artists from over 40 years ago, not to mention young people who are fans of folk and classical music.
Do you really think in 200 years time there will not be rap artists, and fans of the great rap artists of our generation? if so i feel sorry for you, for their music has had a huge impact on the world and will continue to do so, just as Led Zeppelin will continue to do so, just as folk music will continue to do so.

Like I said, you have probably heard 3 songs from Eminem and judge all rap by that. If this is the case, your argument did not deserve a reply in the first place.

Do not think that just because you are not a fan of rap music, that there are not grounbreaking and great artists of the genre out there, all of which you will never find because you are all too narrow minded and stereotypical of the entire genre.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Just for the record, I stand by my remarks. Please note I used a qualifier, I never said that anyone who says they hate rap is a racist.

But there is a rather short step between xenophobia and racism.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 12:25 PM

"If you want to discuss staying power, consider Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin etc. Can you vision any rap that will last 200 years? I sure as hell can't."

though it does help maintain the longterm profile of old dead classical composers

if they have an institutionalized wealthy power elite
with a vested interest in keeping such music and names
prominent in contemporary and future'high-brow' culture.. or what ?

.."staying power"..
will always have more to do with power base and cultural motive
of a dominant critical orthodox elite
than any 'intrinsic quality' in
the type of music under discussion [or dismissal]

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 12:22 PM

Kendall,

In 200 years I will come back in my new reincarnated self with my memory of previous lives intact. Then I'll telepathically connect with you and share some raps.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 12:05 PM

If you want to discuss staying power, consider Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin etc. Can you vision any rap that will last 200 years? I sure as hell can't.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Folk in the corner
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

" How many rap songs do You remember from, say, 1990, or even 2004? Plenty of people still listen to rock music from 30 years ago and can still sing/quote lyrics. And please, don't compare Ms Dynamite - who sang a song with her OWN NAME in it - to Aretha Franklin. Arrogance or what? "

Bloke building barricaded comfort zone in the corner... or what ?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: John C.
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM

What?

Who?

What?

Who pompous self important ****?

Clarification urgently required!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM

most of you say that all rap music is homophobic, pro -violence, etc etc. Shows how VERY little you know. in fact in most cases it is completely the opposite, public enemy wrote for the majority of songs about peace and the stupidity of killing others, along with NWA, and many other rap / hip-hop artists who were and still are great musicians and writers.

I dont see how any of you can say "rap is rubbish" considerring how very little you know of the institution. You all probably heard 3 songs by Eminem, and use that to judge the whole of rap. Bollocks.

and dont try and compare rap artists to others, like aretha franklin for example... they are totally different styles! its like saying whats better.. chicken or turkey? everyone has a different opinion.

There are a few rap artists, who were and always will be great, and nothing any of you say can change that fact.
If you actually knew anything of the real artists, such as Run DMC, Public Enemy, etc, you may see that you are wrong.

What we have today is people who are rubbish and give rap a bad name and write crap lyrics, such as busta rhymes and all that rubbish.
and the proof they are spoiling it for the others is the narrow minded views on this thread.
People like this are to real rap music what westlife are to real rock music - a load of rubbish. people who dont write their own songs or do anything except get up there and mime, etc.

You should try researching the topic before commenting, as quotes like "all rap is rubbish" is a load of rubbish itself

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:31 AM

DJ SPELLCHECK REMIX VERSION:

Arrogant Ignorance or what ?..?????

Out of touch with a vital and fertile world of fresh musical creativity and new traditions for the future or what ?


Fossilised petrified folk or what ?


Pompous self important **** or what ?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Jukebox in the corner
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

Arrogant Ignorance or what ?..?????

Out of touch with a vital and fertile world of fresh musical creativity and new traditions formthe future or what ?


Fossilised petfified folk or what ?


Pompous self important **** or what ?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 11:16 AM

I have no fondness for gangsta rap with its focus on bling bling, sex, violence, disrespect for women, and homophophic lyrics.

But gangsta rap is not all rap and to DISrespect and DISregard an entire genre of music is going MUCH too far.

As to whether people are still singing and quoting rap music from the 1980s on- Yes indeed...

To cite one example: Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five's 1982 hit "The Message" is usually ranked as the Number 1 Rap song to date. Here is the first verse & the chorus:

Broken glass everywhere
People pissing on the stairs, you know they just
Don't care
I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkie's in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
Cause the man with the tow-truck repossessed my car

Chorus:
Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to loose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under

end of quote

Most here probably can't relate, but since we haven't yet reached a time of heaven on earth or anything near to it, lots elsewhere can.

As to music [and other things} I say "Different strokes for different folks."

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:04 AM

Good to see a lively debate - Jacqui seems to sum it up. Almost no rap music is memorable, apart perhaps from its gruesome attitude to women. How many rap songs do You remember from, say, 1990, or even 2004? Plenty of people still listen to rock music from 30 years ago and can still sing/quote lyrics. And please, don't compare Ms Dynamite - who sang a song with her OWN NAME in it - to Aretha Franklin. Arrogance or what?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

Rap is Rubbish.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: s6k
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 08:00 AM

you do understand that the majority of old delta blues music that refers to "my baby" or "big man" or "the boss" is usually a reference to god?
eg. "my baby done me wrong" = god has done me wrong. but they couldnt say it was god or their bosses who forced them to work in the cotton fields, as they would have been killed, so they changed it to their spouse as a metaphor.

Also, for most of the rest of you, music is universal, people have a right to like what they want, they dont just have to like folk and listen only to folk. music is supposed to unite us not make us have petty arguments!

and nobody can say "rap is rubbish" because there are several rap artists that were pioneers and geniuses of their art, i speak of Run-DMC, Public Enemy and Dr.Dre - most of whom sing about love and peace.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: PennyBlack
Date: 02 Jan 05 - 07:43 AM

Hey we put the "C" back in rap!

PB

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Grab
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 09:24 PM

I'd refer the Bloke in the Corner to any blues or folk collection for attitude to women. The number of songs involving women and/or their lovers killed for being unfaithful is immense, so go figure. You want a positive example in rap, dwditty gave you an example of K-OS. Over in the UK, there's Ms Dynamite who's very pop but a good positive image.

FWIW, almost *everything* you'll hear on the radio is crap. How much good folk or blues did you hear on the radio last week? If you heard any, it'd be something that'd only got anywhere because there's a cute girl singing. Why do you think rap is any different?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 08:56 PM

yeah i hate sprouts too..
my wife loves 'em..

the compromise just added another 5 mins to overall cooking time
of xmas dinner
while sprouts were boiled separately from all other vegetable..


but yes i gotta face up to admit

I AM A SPROUTIST..

sorry..

and last night new years revellers were dancing enthusiastically
to top hip hop/rap pop tunes on the juke box
in the pub we all normally go to local live folk & country blues session..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 07:19 PM

I dunno, do you hold your crotch while reading Tolstoy? It proves nothing, but I'm just curious..........

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

I also like good books such as WAR AND PEACE, but I don't like comic books. Does that make me an old fool?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

Willie-o, your logic is flawed. I have also heard a hundred people pronounce they 'hate rap'. Guess what, it's their sorry way of bringing 'current' their traditional sentence which was (stop me if you've heard this before) "I like all kinds of music except acid rock". They're generally tuneless, clueless and are really trying to say they're not really into music and they like lite pop. Pity them, but classify them racists? Good grief, escape from your PC world before it's too late!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM

Jacqui! You've just given me an idea for pepping up my performances! ROFL!!
S:0)
PS, sorry you and Kendall didn't get to G'boro on NYE. Hope you make it next time you're back here.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:16 PM

It will be interesting to see how much of the rap music is still around and being revived in, say, twenty years from now. How much of it will be carried down over one hundred years? Basically, that seems to be the province of folk and classical music. Maybe that is the real test of a style.

I'm way over forty and I have listened to some rap music, but it just doesn't really interest me. I am going to sound like a complete wrinkly here, but why do these guys seem to have to hold on to their crotches while performing?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:14 PM

And for the record, and in keeping with my views on all kinds of music, I like some of it, I don't like some of it. BTW I'm 57, mentally competent, in full-time employment, physically fit and my plumbing works fine.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 05:10 PM

Pointless arguments, all of them. It's like sprouts, you like them or you don't - either way doesn't make you a racist/idiot/worthless person. We can't all be the same - accept it and get a life.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:59 PM

Monsieur Mojo says:
"Most the so-called "folkies" around here are into their special brand of museum music as a hobby."

How do you define a "so-called 'folkie'" as distinct from any other kind of folkie?

What's wrong with music being old - perhaps the same as being over 40?

When does a good song (subjective definition of course) become "museum music"?

When does a music genre (say RAP) become music for "folkies" and how long will it take for it to become "museum music"?

When will Mojo realise that the above line actually defines him as a bigot as much as other people's statements about black artists are supposed to reveal them as racists (according to some.)

Frank

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM

Seems to me that this discussion is divided into two kinds of people. Those who believe that everyone is entitled to like or dislike whatever they like or dislike and those who think that anyone who disagrees with them has to be abused. It's a pity that most of the latter kind are those who like RAP.

Frank

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 04:11 PM

Okay off the top of my head Macy Gray, Lauryn Hill and Ms Dynamite are three exceptional 'today black artists' artists using real instrumentation.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:49 PM

As it happens I really enjoy loads of types of music. In my car I've currently got Silly Wizard, Pearl Jam, Countin' Crows and a Rock compilation - Iron Maiden, Metallica, Korn etc. I'm no Luddite folkie, just an ordinary bloke sad at the way so much music is going. So name me a 'today' black artist who can sing - not shout or scream gibberish - and/or play an instrument - who is not singing songs composed by computer. Tell me any of them who can compare to Ray Charles, or Aretha FRanklin for musicality!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Monsieur Mojo
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:34 PM

And I would like to add that Public Enemy & especially NWA's 'Straight Outta Compton' albums hit me harder and deeper than any Dylan and Dylan wannabe dilletantes' music ever did.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Monsieur Mojo
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

"...and not many of the highly dubious intolerant supremacist characters who take pround refuge in their version of its shadily retrogressive traditionalist agenda and inward looking social sub-culture..."

You go punkfolkrocker! You nailed a whole lot of "folk" around here with that one!

The best of rap, hip hop, dub, etc. is excellent poetry, spoken word, and done in a plainsong/chant sort of riffing way I just love. The electronic wizardry of it is also very cool, IMNSHO.

Most the so-called "folkies" around here are into their special brand of museum music as a hobby.

Rap, hip hop, dub, etc. is the real deal for livin' today.

And who can't love the intensely creative and playful sorts of stuff from the likes of Toronto's Moxy Früvous, who turn all the racist stereotyping on it's head?

I'm still trying to get my head around that comment about no decent black artists today...whew, that is some pig fuckin' ignorance.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM

Woah, Willie, don't brand me a racist - I'm the very opposite. In my book a man or woman is judged by what they do, not what they look like. I still say there's very little good black music about at the minute. Look at my post where I said it and read about the black artists & music genres which I feel have given us so much. I don't think we're getting much out of black music today. My opinion of the music, NOT of the skin colour.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Willie-O
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

Jeez, this is still going on.

My point was, why is it so common that this particular genre gets singled out in this kind of way, so we're not surprised to see this thread title even though dwditty was saying something positive?

Ever seen an MC thread entitled "For those who hate bluegrass"?

So I stand by my opinion that for some, expression of this sentiment can be a form of ill-concealed racism. (Bloke In The Corner, yours is not very ill-concealed, say, are there "any good white artists" today?)   

At the same time, I am sympathetic to the observation that "I don't like it because I don't like it." Matter of fact I feel that way myself. But since I don't listen to it, I can't say I've done any statistical studies that prove that "most of it is vile" etc. etc.

John In Kansas, always interesting to hear from you--I had never heard that the roots went back that far. The first rap I ever heard, back in the old anarchist commune days, was a group called "The Last Poets" who were very political and cool, I think they started in the late 60's.

Most of us are well north of 40, so tossing that out as if it meant something is kind of pointless. (A few years ago someone did a survey and found the average Mudcatter that responded was 54 or so.)

Yeah, peace, eh.

W-O

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

It seems to me that too many people are lumping all of the sub-types of rap into one generic genre [or into one large garbage bag] disregarding any differences between them, probably because they don't know the genre well if at all.

Also, it seems to me that too many people are judging rap using aesthetic standards for European/Western music that probably aren't applicable to this genre.

I'm just sayin...it may not be the wisest thing to judge what you don't know.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 11:18 AM

Thanks Frank. All I did was state an opinion, I did not judge anyone else's taste, or the lack of it.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:10 AM

When you get really old and wise, like me. You will realise Winnie the Pooh had it about right when he said , Everybody's all right...really.

Rap is fine for everybody who likes it. it only upsets me when i am in a traffic queue and they drive up behind me and ruin my contepmplation and chanting OM. Once your aura of calm is gone - everythings buggered.

that was a nice song Randy Newman did about Rap -forgotten the name of it - the something man and little something - he mentioned Run DMC in the lyrics. Another nice thing to come out of Rap is the ranting style poets like nic Toczek of Bradford, who is full of wisdom.

Wishing you all a happy and tolerant new year......

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:49 AM

ummm...errrr, well Rory B gets it. And Willie-o, too. I was just trying to point out that I had recently been turned on to a Rap CD that I found utterly enjoyable. Just about everyone else has painted all of Rap with the same broad brush, which seems a terribly unenlightened approach to rap, and the world in general.

Ah, well. I think I will go of an try to learn one of the songs and fit it to my style. Maybe the one called Hallelujah.

dw

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 02:47 AM

EagleWing ....

what..!!!!??????

what the f*ck are some of you people on..


..or on about..???


i'm one of the good guys..



1'm 46 years old.

very puzzeled whats going on between the ears of some of you befuddled 'liberal' folkies

very sad ..

and do you know what ...


i got a better life to lead than caring about what

ignorance and stupidity some of you are passsing on

to your children in the next musical generation..

ok.. i admit it


it makes me very sad..


..and yes.. guess what.. you are RACIST by default..

get to grips with it and admit it to yourself..


you'll feel a whole lot more comfortable in your white skin..

and your blah blah blah..

f*ck it i'm bored with the half wit conservative stupidity of some
of you FOLKS..

dawn is breaking.

birds are singing..

life is beautiful..

and i got a wife who needs seeing to..


and no i aint gonna storm off in a hissy elton john fit..

because i want to live in a 2005 where some of you backwards backwoods folk
either come to your senses
or no longer blah blah blah....

happy new year...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: EagleWing
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 08:04 PM

I hate RAP. I don't hate it because of racial discrimination as some one has suggested (why does someone always have to play that stupid card?) I don't hate it only because most of what I have heard is foul and hate laden. I don't even hate it because what I have heard of it is musicless and doggerel. I hate it because I hate it! Those who take a different view have already labelled me, along with Kendall as "..sounds like you're well over 40 and down to your last failing brain cell". Yes, I admit to being over 40 but I can assure punkfolkrocker that Kendall's mind is sharp and his musicianship is unquestionable - my own brain still functions well. Off course, if anyone who disagrees with punkfolkrocker has to be treated to the kind of insults with which he treats those who don't like Rap as well as those who are over 40, it doesn't really say much for either his intelligence or his tolerance.

Obviously, there are a lot of people here who don't hate rap. That's great. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally I can't stand Sinatra, Dean Martin or any of the "rat pack". It's for different reasons - and just as prejudiced, no doubt. We don't actually need to analyse why we don't like a particular music, smell, food etc. We just have opinions and those who dislike a particular kind of music have as much right to their opinions as anyone else.

So, punkthingie and others, please allow people their opinions about music and continue to air your opinions about music - not about people you disagree with.

Frank

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Auggie
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:33 PM

Sorry. That last post was me.
Rap has a tendancy to do that to many of us (make us loose our cookies).

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 06:31 PM

One of the common lines of thought that runs through way too many Mudcat discussions (especially below the line) has been reintroduced again here, this time by Sidewinder.
He is evidently allowed to express his opinion, but those who disagree are immediately deprived of theirs lest they be guilty of 'oppression and cernsorship'.
If you think rap has something to offer that's great. My teenage and twenty something kids would agree with you, and I value their opinions. But, don't get on here and whine, moan and play victim if the rest of us fail to appreciate your point of view.
As to your assertion that "there is something positive to be gained from every new cultural development", well, I don't know what planet you're living on but the list of cultural developments,just in my lifetime, with no positive aspects is virtually endless (think crack cocaine, high rise housing projects,freeing the people of Viet Nam/Iraq,etc.,etc.,etc.).

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:41 PM

You folks don't even know me!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Rory B
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 04:30 PM

Wow...a lot of interesting comments both positive and negative. I hope this discussion will inspire at least a few of you to actually listen to some of the "good" rap. My daughter told me that rap actually stands for Rythym And Poetry. It was shortly after learning that from her that my SOCAN magazine arrived. They interviewed the Rapper that DW mentioned at the start of this thread. K-OS. I immediately went out and bought his CD, Joyful Rebellion, because I liked what he had to say about the direction that RAP had taken and how he felt it had taken a wrong turn driven by the recording companies desire to make money etc. He is an extremely talented artist. The entire CD is a constant surprise that takes many musical directions. It is wonderful. It was also a great reminder for me that keeping an open mind can bring you wonderful discoveries you might have missed!! ( I am now also a cool mom for buying a rap cd LOL)
Happy New Year to all and thank you DW !

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:17 PM

"(I've seen endless fads in music come and go)."

me too.. [ i'm only a few music fads younger than you ]

ok.. rap is not my favourite music..

but the good rap/hip hop music that i love
and new suff i still occasionally hear..

can argueably be traced back in its musical expression
to the likes of Cab Calloway and his era and back beyond..

so i think its below the intelligence of the 'folk community'
to be so ignorantly dismissive of a very popular
and influential genre of contemporary music art..



happy new year..
and probably my last message this year
before me and the mrs go out to the pub
and wassail ourselves into a right discgracefull state
to see in the new year..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:10 PM

A capella stuff is cool, of course, no problems- but it never was main stream music. And which of today's black artists - other than those who have been around for many years - actually contribute something positive and original to music in general?
You'll have realised already that I have NO prejudice against black music in general - 60s Motown, blues, jazz, Leadbelly, Michael Jackson except when he thinks he's Jesus in that awful video. But WHY must MOST black music nowadays be filled with hate, attitude or subjugation of women, and - other than the computer-written songs for women singers which are stunning in their unending banality- be utterly devoid of musicality, melody and rhythm- surely the basis of music?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: John C.
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:04 PM

It seems to me that we human beings have fallen into a deadly trap of worshipping change for changes sake. Please remember, though, that "any change increases entropy (unavailable energy). Therefore, any change that produces no net positive good is invariably harmful." (Gene Wolfe - another science fiction writer). It seems to me that popular music is undergoing a process of decay and degeneration - with each successive style or genera (OK, fad!)being more empty and vacuous than the last - turning into meaningless noise, that is. Just as marketing men have discovered that they can sell bottled water (and will soon be selling bottled air, no doubt) they have also discovered that they can sell contentless canned noise. I may be an old fogey, in my 50s, but it could also be argued that I have lived long enough to have a proper perspective on this (I've seen endless fads in music come and go).

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM

..and as for

"There are simply NO good black artists around now".....

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

[old prejudiced ???]Bloke in the corner..

actually a reasonable point of view
re the worst of
commercialized negative gangsta rap..

,,but c'mon...

"Can any of them actually play an instrument?"

is that really still such a serious issue or crime

in a music culture that cherishes unacompanied accapella solo singers

..and encourages the the public performance
of even the most simplistic 'music by numbers'
3 open-chord stilted guitar fingerpicking
faltering vocals trad song murderers..???

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 02:27 PM

Yes, most rap is dreadful, trite rubbish which has NOTHING to do with music or talent - it's largely a CHEAT. Can any of them actually play an instrument?
Of much more importance, however are 1)that it sings the praises of a vile attitude towards the rest of the world, giving young people a dreadfully wrong view of reality and 2) it has subverted black music into a travesty of what it was thirty years ago and should still be - namely the very basis of the best popular music. There are simply NO good black artists around now, they are either sneering, foul-mouthed men or appaling, warbling women churning out the most banal, valueless songs to a public increasingly fed what the major labels what them to hear. It is a shame that young black kids have no-one better to look up to than 50 cent or Missy Elliott.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:26 PM

Ellison is IT as a writer. He ranks with the best. I keep hoping to see something of his come out--and hoping, and hoping . . . .

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: annamill
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:11 PM

I LOVE Harlan Ellison! Is he still writing? Is he still alive? I once considered leaving my second husband, traveling to Cali., finding Harlan Ellison just to tell him I loved him. All this from Shatterday! I want more!! I must find these other writings you have spoken of here.

Just like all !music!, some rap I like (eminem, LJ Cool, Ice Cube, and someone help me, Vanilla Ice), some is obnoxious and highly offends my
gentle sensibilities. Tee Hee.

Later..

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

While I find most current rap "uninteresting," due largely to the commercialization and subject matter, my impression is that there is a legitimate "folk" history that could be of interest. Unfortunately the current "rap" cycle seems to be associated with an "invented" black ethnic origin that isn't well documented (so far as I know).

My first knowledge of what now passes as "rap" was from a "wandering minstrel" of sorts who visited at my church youth group activities in 1955-1956 from "somewhere on the west coast." He gave frequent demonstrations, but called it "street-talkin'" and reported it as an ethnic phenomenon from the "Hispanic ghettos" where he had lived recently in Southern(?) California.

Since our "youth fellowship" and our "choir" were essentially the same group, and consisted almost entirely of music and/or religious studies students from Friends University (then formally the "University of Friends Church") there was significant "scholarly interrogation" of the visitor, and a few people apparently did make an attempt to "research" the phenomenon. It was reported informally to us that inquiries with "black churches" with which there was an association found no knowledge of the method within the black community in Wichita, although the extent of the research done was probably not thorough. It is possible that some of those who were interested may have carried reports back to their music departments, but I don't know of any formal theses on the subject.

There were no existing associations with Hispanic ethnic groups at the time to make inquiry there, so it's not possible to say whether it was "known underground" in our area. (There were few Baptists in the Hispanic community of the era.)

It may be noted that one of the students in the group was in the process of doing a "research paper" on "speaking in tongues" and had made some "unusual" contacts as part of that research. He reported that he had asked about the "street talkin'" among those contacts. He found no direct knowledge of either phenomenon within Wichita, although I had heard (from outside - they can be quite loud) what appeared to be "speaking in tongues" at one local church and reported that to him when I heard of his interest.

Unless some unknown scholar has made records, it's likely that the current "rap" commercial exploitation has "polluted" the history far too much to make any real research/gathering of older history possible. But it would be interesting ...

John

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:58 PM

To punkfolkfocker & willie-o,

Right on! {A decidedly out dated compliment!, I know.}

While I don't consider myself a "crotchety old folkie" or even a "folkie" at all, I do post on this forum and I am over 40.

And I feel that I have just as much right as anyone else to an opinion or two or three.

I believe that there are some good rap recordings and some bad-just like other music genres. And yes, I do consider rap to be a musical genre and hip-hop to include more cultural aspects than the music such as its influence on written & spoken language that mainstream United Staters and others uses 24/7 without giving props when & where & to whom they are deserved.

It seems to be traditional for older people to dis the young, but
I will not sit back and let "crotchety old folkies" and young bloods or middle age people whatever dismiss an entire musical genre without saying my piece.

Peace!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

Some of the most stirring and thought provoking music of the 70s and 80s were Rap or Rap inspired listen to Grandmaster Flash -White Lines Public Enemy etc. and tell me that it's trash. As it developed from Subterreanean Homesick Blues (supposedly) then you will agree the same for songs of Woody Guthrie and the enigmatic Mr.Z I suppose? In the 1940s people were ridiculing Jazz, in the 50s it was Rock and Roll, and so on, and so on. These people were afraid of change and tried to maintain the status quo. But we all know now that there is something positive to be gained from every new cultural development and ridicule and negativity toward new ideas amounts to oppression and censorship and where did those evils ever get us? If you're going to criticize at least have the decency to do some research first.

Best Wishes.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:28 PM

I really enjoyed the French Rap that came out of the movie "Le Haine" The group is Expression Direkt. I don't understand it and make no claims for its social value.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: *Laura*
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:19 PM

rap is one thing - RnB is another. rubbish and bollocks.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:12 PM

i love folk music..

not all of it.

and not many of the highly dubious intolerant supremacist characters
who take pround refuge in their version of its shadily retrogressive
traditionalist agenda
and inward looking social sub-culture..

happy new year again..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM

Yeah, but....WHAT kids?

My brain is working fabulously, thank you very much! :-) I have never been smarter and more clued-in than I am right now. If you want a few tips on improving your own brain cells, I will be happy to offer you some...

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

..sounds like you're well over 40
and down to your last failing brain cell..

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:59 AM

Rap is to music what graffiti is to literature.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:53 AM

"If you don't listen to something cause you don't like it at all, you're hardly qualified to pass judgment on its musicality."

I suppose then,according to you, very few are qualified to pass judgement regarding the taste of a mouthfull of crap either.

Come on. Anybody over 40 with two or three brain cells left to rub together knows, without having to be immersed in either, that
both are extremely distasteful.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,willie-o
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 11:44 AM

Just hearing K-OS on CBC as someone's best-of-2004 choices as I check this thread. They are not only socially responsible but have considerable musical value--in fact it doesn't fit the "rap slot" so many people have constructed for this genre, I am hearing some real nice soulful harmony singing, the kind I couldn't do on the best day of my life.

My question is, why in this world full of freakin choices, because humans are different and understandably like different stuff, is it assumed, albeit correctly, that so many people just plain hate anything in the rap/hip-hop call-it-what-you-will genre? I've heard various interviews with country singers who apropos of nothing will say, "I hate rap", right in there with how much they love Mom, apple pie, Old Glory and good old dead dogs like Shep. I mean, I don't like opera but why would I bring that up in a conversation about sheep dog trials?

I consider this kind of special singling-out of rap for condemnationto be a kind of legitimized racism, whether intentional or subconscious.

So it irritates me to see crotchety old folkies going the same way.
If you don't listen to something cause you don't like it at all, you're hardly qualified to pass judgment on its musicality.

Of course, when it comes to other subjects, like say, drumming circles, I have my own incredibly worthwhile opinions...


W-O

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:53 AM

Like the other guy said...What kids????

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:49 AM

Uh oh, thread creep. Anybody read Harlan Ellison's WONDERFUL intros in "Dangerous Visions" and "Again Dangerous Visions"? Even better than the collected stories.

Back to rap . . . when I first heard it, it was rather exciting. That was back in the '80s and it was more like street poetry with a background of interesting and intellectually appropriate music clips. Alas, it deteriorated rapidly as a genre. I really hate it blasting mindlessly from the car next to mine at a stop light. Otherwise, I can avoid it.

And a friend of ours who does recitations at our session came out of working many years at the post office and wrote (and performs when we can cajole him) "The Post Office Rap."

Linn

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: GUEST,punkfolkfocker
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:42 AM

"It may have good lyrics and serve a purpose but it haas no musical value."

complete bollocks old chap..

the best of rap..
and even examples of the more mediocre..

is an inventive and living highly immaginative
and musically captivating artform..

..though most of modern factory churned out rap is most likely
repetitive formulaic oportunistic negative lyric shite..

so please keep it in perspective..

a large part of folk has no musical value;

fortunately the good inspirational stuff
is worth devoting a life time to..

same with rap..

and yes..
theres plenty of room for sympathetic intelligint
and musical folk/rap crossover..
just as much as folk/blues
folk/country..
follk/punk..
err.. folk/prog rock..
and those supercilious diletante classical musician folkies
that stretch my tolerance levels..

happy new year....

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:24 AM

"Ellison Wonderland."

'I have no mouth and I must scream.'

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: John C.
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:21 AM

I love the science fiction writer Harlan Ellison's description of most modern pop music: "Post-music noise".

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:13 AM

It may have good lyrics and serve a purpose but it haas no musical value.

eric

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

F**k it, I like Rap.

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:06 AM

At First I thought this thread was a slur on my Secret Santa !!

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:27 AM

Had ya nervous there for a sec, huh?

Subject: RE: For those who hate RAP!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:24 AM

What kids ?

eric

Subject: For those who hate RAP!
From: dwditty
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 09:23 AM

I understand that RAP goes against the sensibilities of many on here, but a friend recently sent me a CD by the Canadian artist K-OS. Here is somebody rapping positive messages, replete with flamenco guitar, sitar, and, as far as I can tell, no DJ antics of running a record back and forth. I like it alot.

ANother reason to listen to rap/hiphop is to get a good idea of what your kids are up to.

dw