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Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music

Nick 04 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM
PennyBlack 04 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM
Tig 04 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM
oombanjo 04 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Obie 04 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM
DMcG 04 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM
Nick 04 Jan 05 - 05:58 PM
Nick 04 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,ET 04 Jan 05 - 07:04 PM
The Shambles 05 Jan 05 - 02:53 AM
Paco Rabanne 05 Jan 05 - 03:04 AM
Nick 05 Jan 05 - 04:29 AM
ossonflags 05 Jan 05 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Mingulay 05 Jan 05 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 05 Jan 05 - 07:15 AM
BanjoRay 05 Jan 05 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Wullie 05 Jan 05 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 05 Jan 05 - 09:15 AM
Roger the Skiffler 05 Jan 05 - 09:23 AM
The Beast of Farlington 05 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM
Pistachio 05 Jan 05 - 10:52 AM
Nick 05 Jan 05 - 02:26 PM
oombanjo 06 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Jake 07 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM
DMcG 07 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM
John J 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM
The Beast of Farlington 10 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM
Nick 10 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM
The Shambles 10 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Flamenco Ted 11 Jan 05 - 08:57 AM
Gedpipes 11 Jan 05 - 11:14 AM
pavane 11 Jan 05 - 11:37 AM
GUEST 11 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM
Linda Kelly 11 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM
oombanjo 11 Jan 05 - 05:06 PM
Linda Kelly 11 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM
The Shambles 12 Jan 05 - 01:57 AM
pavane 12 Jan 05 - 02:49 AM
Linda Kelly 12 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM
Leadfingers 12 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM
Bassic 12 Jan 05 - 02:32 PM
Bassic 12 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM
Nick 12 Jan 05 - 03:13 PM
Nick 12 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM
Bassic 12 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 12 Jan 05 - 04:15 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 12 Jan 05 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,ET 12 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM
The Shambles 12 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM
Nick 13 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM
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Subject: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

I spoke to Samuel Smiths brewery today about our local pub in Farlington where we have played music for the last two and a bit years (see related thread at Have Sam Smiths banned all music amongst others) as I heard that we have been told to stop playing.

Unfortunately, it's true.

What is worse is that it applies to ALL Samuel Smiths pubs. Nellies was mentioned by the person I spoke to at the brewery as being another that would be affected.

Obviously I am really sad about it and it would be easy to write a torrent of abuse about the brewery, the chairman etc - hopefully that is NOT what will go on here.

The decision is from the chairman down and is being implemented down the chain of command so it seemed silly to get too excited over the phone. Apparently people have written directly to the chairman on this matter as it was his decision alone and so I guess there is an implication that this might be a good course of action.

The reasons as to WHY were not forthcoming. Might be licensing issues - I don't know.

I DO intend to write as I'm sure will the people who use our local.

SO tomorrow is the last gathering at the Blacksmiths Arms Farlington as it is considered a previously arranged commitment. Raise a pint and have a moments silence somewhere between 8.30 and 11.30...

Off to compose my letter


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

Wednesday 5th January 2005 at 10.00pm The Falcon Session will raise a glass and think of you.

May another location raise it's head and welcome the phoenix!

good luck

PB


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Tig
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:51 PM

We were talking about this overall ban at the weekend - and realised that amongst the pubs which are affected is The Plough at Whitby!

What a wicked waste of a good venue and meeting place.

We already are aware of several Sam's houses who are losing customers right, left and centre over this lunacy by the chain.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM

If This happens I will be gutted, and Sams Will probabley go to the receivers.How can they expect to lose thousands of customers a year and stay afloat. ANY SHARE HOLDERS OUT THERE?????????????????


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM

You can write the strongest message with your wallets! Hopefully there are alternative pubs close at hand.
"There's nothing so lonesome, morbid or drear
    As to stand in the bar of a pub with no beer"
   (or music or customers)
            Obie


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM

Are any of the South Yorkshire/Derbyshire pubs associated with traditional carols owned by Sam Smiths?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:58 PM

Thank you Penny. I'm part of the phoenix fan club myself - just need to chop the 500 year membership rule (throw yourself on a fire every night is my motto) - perhaps we could sing a song for you :)

I don't think there are any non-family shareholders.

Sams owns more land, property and interests in thing that it can stay afloat longer than I (and perhaps most of us) can stay alive. If the Chairman decides something he has every right to. He also has every right to grant anything he chooses to within the law.

I understand from previous things that the chairman is a good and proper person and that he is very good at responding to direct communications - whether he writes back what you or I might want to hear is a different matter (the chilling of beer /banning of alcopops are two examples where I know people have had response).

I've hummed in the Plough at Whitby. I am planning to go and see Grace Notes on monday at Nellies. And after a really enjoyable sunday in Monks Walk was looking forward to going to Nellies one sunday because I believe it is even better.

There will be a reason(s) as to why this decision has been taken. If it is one that no-one has any influence on there is nothing to be lost by a) finding out what that decision is and b) seeing if that decision can be changed.

For the pub we drink in it probably - at present - does not seem shrewd economic sense in that we go regularly and have spent a good few quids over the last few years. In the total history of the pub it is probably neither here nor there. I only go to the Plough in Whitby in Whitby folk week so I don't know what the rest of the year is like. Nellies I would guess it would hurt.

After that I don't actually know any Sam Smiths pubs that play live music reguarly apart from one rumoured in Sheffield.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS NOT KNOWING HOW WIDESPREAD A PROBLEM (OPPORTUNITY) THIS POTENTIALLY IS

Aside from the more global licensing issues that others are much more au fait and involved with, two things did strike me -

If we are talking about very few pubs then the costs are very little to Sams and so it is sortable at a LOCAL level because there are no great issues of principle involved and no great cost issues to the brewery. If there are (say) half of the (quoted) 200 Sam Smiths pubs who want to put on live music then there is huge demand (which is good).

Having been in the Plough in Whitby week that is a LOT of money involved. I dare say Nellies has made a few quid off the music (inc jazz etc) over time. Our local pub I reckon it will hit my £3K-5K in turnover in the coming year and we are truly a tiny place.

My overall feeling is that it is something worth exploring and pushing further. It doesn't strike me that where we (specifically) are at the moment is in anyone's interest - not the customers; not the brewery; not the council; not the government.

So it must be sortable


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

Obie I agree you can vote with your wallet and I dare say that will happen

BUT...

We love where we go and we don't want to be somewhere else. 'Punishing' the brewery economically (who are very strong) is still like smacking yourself over the head with a bit of 4by2 (yeah - I know it's popular in places).

When we were aware that we might be coming to an end several things happened -

1 We looked round for somewhere else - I haven't seen a better option given the constraints of what we want to do, where we are, what is available. So there is considerable self interest. Even some inertia. But it isn't that. There truly isn't a better place within 12 miles of where we live. (10 miles north of York - if anyone knows better or has a pub with good beer, a welcome, a suitable room etc then PM me)

2 We started looking at what we have. What came out of that is how much we get from what we do. Suddenly we communicate more regularly. I have four wonderful emails from our immediate group which will go to Sams to try and explain why it DOES matter - for bigger places it must be even more the case

3 If the worst comes to the worst then we will go to one of the pubs that has said we can play. But it's the lesser option.

I probably haven't put this across very well. The difficult bit is conveying to those that DO matter WHY it matters.

Cos it does to us!

Nick
Blacksmiths Arms Minority Interest Good Natured Terrorists (nibble yer ankles on a bad day grrrr section) Inc


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Subject: RE: Obit: Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:04 PM

Has anyone got the means to communicate this to Fergal Sharkey who is runing the check on music venues for the Department of Media, Culture and Sport!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:53 AM

Not too sure if he is running anything other than ensuring that the DCMS spin is seen to have some seal of performer approval.

But the Government's response to the E petition did promise a review of the effects on live music - so it would not hurt to inform this body and get them to establish the reasons for Sam Smiths position and if it likely to be followed by others.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:04 AM

Bad news indeed Nick. We have all had some bloody good times at FarTington. Has the Beast been informed?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:29 AM

Happy new year, Ted - sorry we didn't get to Glaisdale. Yes, we all know the position over here and are planning accordingly...


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: ossonflags
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:18 AM

I agree with Nick on this one.Based on past experiance it is a complete waste of time and air sounding of at each other the rights and wrongs of Samual Smiths decision.Berating "someone doing there job" does nothing but send the message they are dealing with a load of unorganised bolshie rabble and this could have the opposite effect to what you are trying to achieve.

It has not been made clear why this decision has been made, but what we do know is it was made by the Chairman of the brewery.
The most sensible and responsible course of action (initially) would be for as many people as possible to contact, in writing, the Chairman of Smith's at Tadcaster asking why he has made this move.It is not a bad idea to mention the vast amount of money spent in there outlets by people such as us, but to me the most important bit of information that should be conveyed to Sam's is the amount of pleasure, FREE live music gives to people in a trouble free atmosphere - folk people are not generally known for knocking lumps of one another!

LETS KEEP MUSIC LIVE !!!!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:47 AM

The major problem is that Humphrey Smith doesn't care what anyone else thinks. He is also penny pinching. When I first met him some 20 years ago he was wandering about in his late father's ill fitting suits because (Iwas told) he was too mean to buy new ones. The sort of man who would cry if he dropped a tanner and found a shilling, so it probably has something to do with paying for licences.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:15 AM

I have just contacted the brewery and we need to write to

Humphrey Smith
Samuel Smiths Brewery
Tadcaster
North Yorkshire
LS24 9SB

It may be if enough people do contact him hopefully he will at least consider amending his decision. I for one do not wish to see big screen TVs or satellite broadcast jukeboxes etc, however I do wish to see live music. Perhaps if we presented a unaminous front asking only for the performance of live music to be permitted he may, at certain venues that rely to some extent on this as a source of revenue, relax his dictat.
We have nothing to lose by doing this and potentially everything to gain, from past experience petitions are not as effective as individual letters so those of you who visit Nellies etc could perhaps draw up a letter, print a few copies off and ask people to sign them and return them to the brewery.
May the voice of reason prevail
My letter will be in the post tonight, as I would be forlorn if I go to Whitby and find the sessions in the Plough are a thing of the past.
Incidentally I know a good many people who go to the Plough and Nellies and farlington who do not access the Mudcat so contacting these people and encouraging them to add their weight would only serve to better our argument.

Sam, Sam pick up thy musket, right lads let battle commence


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: BanjoRay
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:51 AM

I've just written to them on behalf of FOAOTMAD - I've really enjoyed our old time sessions in Nellies during the fringe festival.
Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Wullie
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:53 AM

I have gone with a manager to quite a few Sam Smiths pubs in the past month where they have no live music and the managers are quite content with the state of afairs apart from the tele which they can't watch
wullie


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:15 AM

PS Sam smith's do not have a website or email addresses !

and this in the 3rd Millenia !


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:23 AM

Does this only apply to music in a public bar? Whatif a Sam Smiths pub has a function room? Does it have to keep it unused or say "Sorry, you can have your party, wedding reception etc but no music"???
RtS


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

flamenco ted

the wrath of the Beast is nigh.

The Beast will be avenged

or he might have to be the Beast of Somewhere Else instead

Do Hull or Beverly have any vacancies for Beasts?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Pistachio
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:52 AM

Nellies - without singing!

The drinking and musical activities complement each other - and as Mick McGarry said some of the punters even enjoy the entertainment at the open singarounds.

Don't forget The White Horse Folk Club has been resident for 'ever' upstairs and Nellies is renowned world wide for its 'folk'.

It 'll never be the same - yet this is something than can have something done about it! Oops. I think you know what I mean.
Hazel.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:26 PM

Raggytash -

I think your view is spot on. I'll send you my Mr Smith letter for comment if you want - if there is somewhere. I do agree concerted effort and similar message is likely to have more effect.

Plus I cannot help but feel the LOCAL tack is better than the global one. Most Sams pubs are not affected.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

I hav'nt had chance to read all the thread as my grandson wants me to find his football and what ever , I will call at Nellies on the way back home, and let you know the result.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Jake
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM

Have today spoken with the brewery. Yes they are going ahead with a ban on live music in their pubs. No reason was given. "No comment", was all the spoksman would say.
No press release was available. No date for the execution of this death sentance could be given.

I also called "NELLIES" in Beverley, they said that the rumours were true but nothing official had been said to them - yet- so they were carrying on with live music until further notice.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM

Does anyone know what fraction of pubs are Sam Smiths? I'd like to ask my MP how he squares this his assertion that the new licences will make more opportunities for live music come the election visits.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: John J
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Re: South Yorkshire Carol venues, the Travellers Rest at Oughtibridge is a Sam Smiths house. I was speaking to an elderly lady who has been singing in the pub for many decades, she told me that she had heard that this year (Dec 2004) would probably be the last year the singing would take place due to licencing contraints.

I was in the Vine in Dunham, near Lymm, Cheshire t'other night. All the piped music system had been removed, due, according to the lady behind the bar, to the unwillingness of the brewery to pay for the appropriate licence. She was under the impression the cost was in the region of £1000 per pub. Drinkers in the pub had mentioned that the place seemed 'quiet' without the sound system. I would point out that the when the sound system was installed and in use it certainly wasn't intrusive, it just provided a low level of background music.

Sam Smiths Bitter is £1.26 a pint around here, cheaper even than Holts. I suppose if you want cheap beer then something has to go. Still, if we didn't have this bloody stupid licence system (tax but by another name) the problem wouldn't occur.

John


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM

I'd rather pay more for my beer and have live music. Even £1.80 a pint would be cheap!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

I have received a reply to my initial letter to Humphrey Smith about Blacksmiths Arms Farlington and Live music if anyone is interested in it in full PM me. I received the reply (handwritten) by return of post which is good.

The gist is that -

1 It is due to PRS costs
2 All pubs are treated the same and they are unwilling to work on a pub by pub basis regardless of consequence
3 "Rightly or wrongly our small brewery's whole strategy and objective is to keep our brewery open and producing and offering secure employment for the very long term" - and that prices have only gone up in line with duty increases since 1990
4 He apologizes

I understand from a friend who spoke to PRS today that the cost per session for something like ours is £7.08 or £368.16 for 52. Each week we have 12-25 people who come (and sometimes more) for about 3-3.5hours. I leave the maths to you but they seem at odds with point 3 above.

I'll see what the response to the next letter is.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

Sending a copy to the Live Music Forum will be a good idea. Especially as PRS and other similar bodies have a place on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Flamenco Ted
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 08:57 AM

I still fail to understand why my singing in a John Smith's pub requires a f#####g licence when my talking in a John Smith's pub doesn't?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Gedpipes
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:14 AM

You cant f*****g sing


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:37 AM

It has already been established that standing in the pub is OK, but swaying in time with music isn't!!!!! (under EXISTING law)


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM

If you look as if you are enjoying it then its "entertainment". That is of course a PEL issue. Smiths are concerned about PRS which presumably means that they are not permitting the use of function rooms for private parties with music.

I have no idea what their estate is like but there must be at least one pub or hotel with a large room that gets used for wedding receptions.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM

Ted-you can carry on singing in a John Smiths pub- its the Sam Smiths pubs you can't.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: oombanjo
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 05:06 PM

A thought on this one........Are most pubs that host folk, / live music carrying a entertainments licence or not. Or have most of them been crossing the line between lawful & unlawful, and if we have been getting away with it for the last ..... years is it worth stiring up the hornets nest.    You all know my wish to continue having free live music in pubs, but will the new law and ban make us stop.Will it make a differance.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM

The trouble is John it isn't us who would be risking anything it would be the landlord-and we couldn't ask that of anyone. I think it may be worth pointing out to the right people that whether it was their intention or not, they are effectively running live music into the ground - it takes a lot of time and effort to find new venues and if acts are booked in the future then contracts are at risk and money is at risk. Some more data would be useful so we can gauge whether this is becoming a trend and not just in sam Smith's. unfortunately folkies and jazzies are likely to be attracted to the smaller independent pubs due to their addiction to real ale!!!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:57 AM

The issue is the overall and increased cost of running pubs - mainly due to the new Licensing Act.

The PRS/PPL issue is difficult as it is the revenue for this that is supposed to reward the artists for their creations. Without payment by pubs of this (propose increased fee for 2006) are our artists in danger?

If pubs are not prepared to pay this fee - they and all live music making (even unpaid sessions) are in danger of not having a home.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:49 AM

I understood from previous threads that only the biggest stars and companies got anything from the MCPS or PRS - making payments to lesser known artists/songwriters just isn't worth their while (even in these computerised days?).

(And you cannot join until you have had songs published already, I believe)


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

If someone designs a car or a dress-do they get royalties for everyone sold? i dont believe so-so why should songwriters benefit from the same sort of thing- it's all completely mad when its potential is to stop songwriters writing because there is nowhere for them to perform their songs.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

Big Business doesnt work on common sense !! The record Companies will still make money out of artists and some artists will get a decent return for their work - the rest can go hang as far as Big Business is concerned !


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Bassic
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:32 PM

Just a suggestion......but from reading the above it looks like it is possible to purchase a sessional licence to cover specific events. At least as far as Nellies goes......and the White Horse Folk Club which now has to close after 30 years in that unique venue.......would it not be worth exploring the possibility of the club itself getting the necessary licence and seeing what the brewery has to say about that?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Bassic
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

Also, from reading the above, if a full PRS licence for somewhere like Nellies is £1000 a year........that amounts to less than 1p on the cost of a drink if the pub sells 300 drinks a day. Nellies must sell at least that much I would have thought. 1p on the cost of a pint wouldnt loose Nellies a single customer I am sure......not when pint of Bitter is only £1.27 to start with anyway! But banning music will loose them many scores of customers throughout the year......of that I am also sure, let alone the loss of good will and the bad publicity.......I`m afraid it just doesnt add up to me.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 03:13 PM

Bassic -

I have had an email back from PRS today saying that they wish to consider and discuss and then come back with a full reply.

****

I wrote:

We are a group of singers/musicians who have until
recently met weekly in a local pub for a 'singaround'.
Some of what is sung is traditional, some is folk,
some self written. There are somewhere between 10 and
25 of us who attend. There is no entrance fee.

The pub concerned is a Samuel Smiths pub and - as I'm
sure you are aware - their policy has changed and they
have removed all music/Tvs etc across the board.

As we love the particular pub as a place to play (we
have offers from elsewhere but would rather stay where
we are) we are exploring if there are ways to satisfy
all parties concerned.

So a number of questions if I may...

1 What would be the cost for a year for a weekly
singaround as described above. No background music or
other licences involved - JUST for this. Is this fee
likely to change dramatically in the future? I have
heard rumours of huge % increases coming perhaps you
could give me the actual facts!?

2 As I understand Sams may be unwilling to treat pubs
on an individual basis is there a way that WE as a
group of individuals or as a club can hold a PRS
licence for the above activity - so that it is US who
deal with it rather than the specific pub?

3 If our weekly gathering was on the basis of it being
a private function with people allowed in by
invitation does this change anything?

If you need any further information please let me
know.

Thank you for your help in advance. I would appreciate
a quick response if possible as I am currently in a
dialogue on the matter and would like to maintain the
momentum of the discussion if I can

******

Reply -

Dear Mr Blair

Your e-mail and questions have been passed to me for attention and I am very sorry to hear about your plight. The actions of this pub company are very disappointing for their customers and damaging to the incomes of our songwriter and publisher members. You raise a number of questions which I would like to take a little time to consider and then I will come back to you with a full reply.

Yours sincerely

Clive Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

Bill who sings at our local pub with us phoned PRS also last week. For a singaround such as we have the fee is £7.08 a session. He was told that it is premise based and not something we could take on personally.

We'll see what happens next


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Bassic
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

Thanks for the info Nick. Good luck with the enquiries.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:15 PM

Why so much bloody buearocracy and bullshit involved just to sing a song or play a tune in a pub, I',m sure this is a british thing, and no other country would put up with it.

AS I understand it, [and i admit, i know very little about the subject], to play a cd in a pub, the landlord will need to buy licences from PEL, PRS, and MCPS, waht a load of crap!

Does not paying PRS involve criminal penalties, [jail or fines etc], or is it a civil matter, waht would happen if everyone told them to get lost?

A while back, some bloke came from [I think] PRS, to the take away i work at, about the shop radio been played in a public area, the boss told him to get lost, as far as i know, he has not been back.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:19 PM

RE the £7 a week fee for a folk session, if you could pay it somehow, ie just send it to them, saying it was from the pub or wahtever, who gets the money, does it go towards promoting folk music, or straight to some rich bastard in London?


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM

I fear its not really about paying a session fee. The issue is for the premise owner. Under the new Act the Licensee has to fill in the "music" bit of the statement of purpose as part of the application for a licence. Music does not cost anything extra but the Chairman of Sam Smiths may instruct all licence holders not to fill in this bit to avoid PRS fees for piped music etc.

It is a a lot of bull I know. If its any consolation a bar pwner in Portugal had to obtain 21 licences to run his bar - one for beer, one for wine, one for music, one to stick up signs and one for his contraceptive machine in the bog etc. so maybe things are no better elsewhere!

In the Yorkshire Post the other day (editorial) the Government claimed the new system was less complex but the application for a licence was 24 pages long and cost up to £500 , as opposed to the current £30 for 3 years!   Sam Smiths chairman will not be enthusiastic about this I fear!


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM

The situation does not look very good for unpaid sessions etc but for paid gigs in small pubs - it looks even worse. It is pretty obvious to anyone - apart from it seems our Government - that any overall increase in pub running costs is also going reduce the money available to pay performers.

The increase in the PPL fee to the £1000 mark - set for for the year 2006 - is not going to help.

And in the case of all Sam Smiths pubs - it has not helped.


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Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM

The Beast pointed out the following to me today from the Prufrock column in the Sunday Times (he's much better read and informed than me) -

Sunday Times online Prufrock article

HUMPHREY SMITH, boss of Tadcaster brewer Samuel Smith, seems determined to move his business and the Yorkshire town he dominates back to the 19th century.

His licensees are up in arms over his decision to remove all music and televisions from his pubs. Trade was down over Christmas because those who wanted to watch football or enjoy parties with music went elsewhere.

Smith, 60, is also a big residential landlord in Tadcaster but not many of his tenants will want to cause a fuss. They are just grateful to have passed the Humphrey test. All couples must be married and no singles can live together.

Indeed, there are several empty homes that cannot be filled because nobody can meet the entrance test set by Smith, who is rumoured but not yet proven to be one of Yorkshire's richest men.


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