Folk music in England.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM

Generating an audience is the philosopher's stone of folk music. If I knew the answer to that I'd be making a fortune as a promoter.

True most attenders perform, and only the occasional audient turns up, and I feel that that is all about advertising. We advertise in a folk publication, which produces almost exclusively performers. The local press, the dreaded KM, are not at all supportive of local clubs, and indeed counterproductive, as they constantly publish erroneous details, telling local people that we have a singers night when we have booked someone really expensive, and then sending them all along to see him the next week, when we have a sing........

When we complain, they say "Well it is a FREE listing". The message is clear. Unless we are prepared to pay fees we cannot afford, we are not going to get reliable service.

If anybody can tell me how I can get a message out to the general public, to let them know that things have changed, and there really is something for everyone, I would be eternally grateful.

Last autumn I performed at an outdoor concert supported by our Borough Council, and did a ten minute interview with the local press, who promised profile raising editorial comment. When the paper appeared, there was a half page on the concert containing, in one corner, a head and shoulders photo of myself, and a caption "Local club organiser Don Thompson performing". They didn't even give the name of the club. If this was a question of space, they could have left my name out, and replaced it with the club's name. I would have been happy with that. Local TV are not interested either, so how can we spread the news?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Mikeof Northumbria (Off Base)
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:18 PM

Hi Everybody,

Sidewinder's last posting suggested another angle on the problem we're all struggling with. Bear with me for a while, and I'll try to explain.

There are lots of music clubs around the country besides the folk ones we all know and love. For example, there are a number of thriving classical guitar societies, who put on concerts by professional performers whenever they can afford it. And when they can't afford it, members who can play well enough have to contribute something to the evening when their turn comes around.

Now suppose that somebody turns up to an open evening at their local classical guitar society with a Strat and a Marshal stack, and says "When my turn comes around, I'd like to do a 20 minute improvisation on 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'. With the volume turned up to 11."   My guess is that quite a lot of the regular members would say "Hang about – this isn't what we signed up for! We'd prefer a Bach chaconne, a Roderigo fantasia, or a Dowland galliard"

The Fender-wielding Nirvana fan might then say: "But this is the music I love, and I can't find anywhere else to play it." Some club members might feel sympathetic – but a majority would probably say: "Hard luck – we were here first. Go and find a venue of your own." Does this situation sound familiar?

The fundamental problem is that there are a lot of young performers who are unable to find a suitable platform where they can strut their stuff. So, as a second best, they go to their local folk club and try to get a hearing there. At clubs where the audience is fairly broad-minded, they may be welcomed into the family. (This really does happen sometimes – I have witnessed it). But if most of the club's regular members have a fairly rigid definition of "folk", any such newcomers will probably get a frosty reception.

To solve this problem, we don't need to compel all the traditional folk clubs to open their doors – and their hearts - to fiery young guitar-slingers or angst-ridden young poets. What we do need are more open-mike venues, where budding non-folk performers can practice their stagecraft, and start building up a following. Then the folk clubs that don't want to change can be left to enjoy "their" music in peace - just like the George Formby Appreciation Society, the Vera Lynn Fan Club, the Friends of Django Reinhardt, Dixieland Jazz Lovers Anonymous, or any other group of enthusisasts.

And what of the folk clubs that are open to change? Well, they too be allowed to decide for themselves what they want to listen to, without being accused of bigotry, cronyism, or terminal naffness by non-folk musicians who are desperate to find an audience, and who see their local folk-club as the only available option.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:49 PM

So far as getting the word out we're in a transitional stage. Well, all stages are transitional stages, but what I mean is, if I want to find what's on, I rely on the Internet these days, together with word-of-mouth.

So do a lot of other people, but it's still got some way before it'll be the automatic way that everyone does it, and the way we all put out the information about things we are organising. But it won't be long, and it's going to change things in all kinds of ways.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM

I agree with Don, "free" listings - can't live with them, can't live without them.

Time Out's favourite was putting prices in a database and ignoring any further pricing information sent in. Just the sort of arguement you need on the door with a **** who can't tell the difference between an advertisement and editorial.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM

Further to that, Peter, I actually asked them not to include us in their listing, as we couldn't trust it. They got that wrong as well. You can't even get rid of them when you want to. Shades of Readers Digest.

The internet does seem to be the future in one way, and it is already useful to some extent, thanks to the efforts of those very good people who spend all their free time generating websites, and constantly updating them. However, from personal experience of searching for new venues at which I might perform, chasing pro bookings, even the very best sites are heavily larded with venues which have closed down or moved without informing the webmasters.
Surfers who spend time and call charges on defunct contact numbers, are unlikely to continue to do so. It is true also, that many clubs only give E-Mail for contact, and many take 2 - 3 days to respond. Not too helpful if I find that I'm going to be in their area tomorrow, and want to check that they are, in fact, running. My club is listed on several websites, but the locals around here, either haven't found them, or aren't looking. Apathy still rules........

Don T

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Dan Farnley.
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 08:50 PM

Many of the messages on this thread contain at least a grain of
truth, none really answer the question that Pat posed at the start.
I knew Cooksey from the early days in Coventry, the Rocky Road folk
club, the Dyers Arms, etc, etc.
At this time English and Irish folk music existed in tandem, one had
on Sunday the Fureys, and on Monday in the Bulls Head, the
Dransfields
I saw at this time in Coventry, Ronnie Drew, Christy Moore, Nic Jones, the Matthews Brothers, Paul Brady, the Yetties, Tony Rose,
and the Priors.
I still go to folk clubs but I find where a guest artist is booked
I find myself usually dissapointed.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Bill the Collie
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 07:53 PM

True enough about the Internet's failings, Don, but in a way it's like cars must have been in 1905 or so. Or print around 1490 or so. Still a bit primitive and challenging, and touch and go, and not second nature. That won't last.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

Not an internet failing Kevin. Its pretty normal for club organisers not to bother to tell any publicity medium about changes.

Don - thats the problem with the internet. Why would somebody bother to look for folk clubs unless they have already been to one. At age 17 I had never heard of folk clubs and had no idea that there was any scene to look for. It was a mention on the local paper that got a crowd of us from school to give it a try. That one write up has resulted in at least 3 of us still being active in the folk scene 35 years later other friends and family becoming interested.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:41 PM

Peter from Essex,

I wonder, if you had got that first info from KM, and been sent to a Thursday club on Tuesday, would you ever have tried again.

Local press IS the best form of publicity, but only when they take the trouble to read the full diary lists I sent them quarterly in advance, for three years. They did not even have to enter them in their computer system, as I used E-Mail.

The accuracy of their listings is such that only one club night in four is correctly listed, and, after three years of trying, I have not been able to persuade them to give us any editorial coverage at all. I am not the only person to have suffered in this way, it is par for the course, where KM is concerned. If you ain't buying ad space, don't expect accuracy.


Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

"Most attenders are players these days, certainly in West Kent. So back to the question- how can a folk club generate a reliable audience?"

"Generating an audience is the philosopher's stone of folk music. If I knew the answer to that I'd be making a fortune as a promoter."

Reporting back on attendances at the 3 (Sheffield Area) Folk Clubs: (Rivelin - Wed - Anthony John Clarke; Rockingham Arms - Fri - Flossie Malavialle; Wortley Arms - Sat - Jez Lowe) All 3 venues were packed - total audience count around 250 generating an estimated £1500 at the doors. All 3 venues had floor singers, and guest performers each had a couple of 45 minute to 1 hour slots.

All 3 nights went down a storm. The only conclusions I can draw from the success of our clubs are:
1. Good quality guests.
2. A reasonable number of good quality floor spots.
3. Regular (and frequent) clubs.
4. Variety of folk music styles all welcomed (Folk? - Flossie sings stuff from Edith Piaf to The Eagles & The Beatles).
5. Good & dedicated organisers.
6. Decent venues (warm, clean, comfortable, acoustically sound, welcoming)
7. Good quality ale at reasonable prices.
8. Good quality supporting clubs (singers nights)where beginners (young & old) can be welcomed.


The audiences then build up, and stay with you. Performers (new and experienced) swell the audiences at other local clubs. There's also growing evidence of cross-boundary club attendees now.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM

I agree with all of that, Guest, and running through your list of criteria, we can fairly claim to fulfil most of the points. Three things that fall short are:-

1. We have a small clubroom, which will accommodate only thirty people.
2. Because of 1. we are able to generate funds only for occasional guests (about 3 - 4 yearly), though they tend to be high class guests, such as Mundy - Turner, Les Barker, Clive Gregson etc.
3. We are in Kent. I don't think it is generally understood how wide the gulf is between the Northern and Southern folk scenes. It is extremely difficult to start a club with any hope of success down here, and most don't survive their first year. It is also difficult to keep a long established club going, when, like ours, it has been forced to find new venues four times in six years, simply due to a change of pub manager. In the whole of the Medway towns there is only one successful folk club, though there are a number of pubs offering booked guests regularly, where there are NO floor spots at all. In Maidstone there is only my own struggling club, and a monthly one just outside of town. Given the population of these two areas one would expect that these venues would be packed. Not so!

Now I don't believe there are no folkies here, so where do they all go for their music?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: synbyn
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM

Agree with you, Don. At Tonbridge we had a perfect venue for 50 people, in itself rare, until Ceroc entered next door- £5 an hour session, 3 sessions nightly, only cost of CDs- lots of money for the pub, and impossible for us to run acoustically next door. So we're in a smaller but available venue. Many venues here are prohibitively expensive for the organisers to risk on a regular basis. The late John Smedley built up Folk South East very effectively to show artistes of the stature mentioned by Guest. However, he chose his performers very carefully, as does Vic Smith in Lewes. The halfway house where newish performers learn how to handle audiences of around 100 hardly exists here these days, although Faversham seems to run very effectively in a smallish town. I suspect that acoustic musicians maybe stay in town for the evening, or, having commuted, subside into an armchair. Maybe Sue Hudson will tempt them out to the Ivy House on February 7th!

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:40 PM

Don

Be very careful what you say.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:10 PM

My heart goes out to you Don - there's no doubt in my mind that much of the success of the Sheffield/Area folk clubs is down to a long established folk infrastructure that keeps all club types buoyant. It even includes a successful freelance "Beginners' guitar" teacher who encourages his charges to get themselves off to the local clubs to listen, learn, and eventually perform themselves. He runs classes on 2 nights a week and provides a ready supply of new recruits to local clubs.

I've been going to folk clubs here since 1972, but it was already well established before then – dating back to the folk revival of the 60's, and no doubt boosted by Irish folk musicians playing sessions in a number of different pubs. Establishing such a tradition obviously takes time, but there must be a point of "critical mass" at which things really take off, and folks realise there's much more to life than the TV and canned beers at home. Getting that message out into less enlightened areas isn't easy obviously, and I don't have any ready-made solution, but local radio and local newspapers do a reasonably good job for us here; the jungle telegraph also works it's magic, but again that's partly down to there being a well-established culture. The Stirrings Folk Magazine provides up-to-date venue listings and has a good circulation, so there's no shortage of good quality information.

As far as suitable venues go, I suppose we're blessed with a healthy distribution of pubs per square mile across the region. The income generated from folk and acoustic music sessions helps some pubs on otherwise quiet mid-week evenings too.

Good luck to you; I hope you manage to get your message across – it's certainly a worthwhile one.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:19 PM

Intelligent comment tonight by Billy Bragg and Liza Carthy (and even nearly some by the very decorative presenter) on the Culture Show BBC2 (UKTV) tonight.

Marred only by foolish remarks about the "Morris problem". Time people thought about the importance (formerly) of Morris as part of mating ritual, and fertility symbology.

Apropos mating ritual, that, of course, is what social dance is, which is why I didn't folk at university in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: muppitz
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 07:27 AM

Someone far up the page made the comment "If there isn't a folk club in your area, start one!"
Me and my Mum tried to do just that, we succeeded for almost a year until the loss of two venues in as many months left us with nowhere to hold it. Our audience numbers fluctuated, as we expected, but we still found that our biggest problem was the whole licensing issue, either pubs with ideal rooms didn't have to license to allow us to use them, or the licensees turned their noses up as soon as the words "Folk Club" left our lips. In short, lack of facility or small minds.

I am 22 and I have been going to festivals and been involved in the folk scene since I was in the womb, in fact I'm sure my Mum used to play me the McCalmans during pregnancy, and it really troubles me that where I live, near Nottingham, there is very little within my immediate vicinity. If I were a driver, there are 4 clubs, that I know of, within a fair distance, my nearest festival is in Mansfield, which I am on the committee for, but is only in it's 3rd year for any other festival I would need to leave the county to get to.

Nottinghamshire in particular seems to be deficient in folk (IMHO), if anyone want to re-educate me about that, please do!

What also concerns me is, something that others of you have raised, the decreasing numbers of young people to keep the tradition going.
It scares me to think that I may not be able to go to my favourite festivals or go and see my favourite musicians at gigs in 20 or 30 years time because they won't be there.

Flares and Platform shoes have had their second coming, surely Folk music deserves one too!

muppitz x

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

Hang on in there Muppitz - it's worth the fight. Next time you're 40 miles up the M1 drop in to one of our clubs in Sheffield and boost our youthful image - current average age about 58. I detect some encouraging signs though.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:52 PM

Copied from the "Folk Music in the US" thread:

"I think we get a distorted picture of the size and influence of their group on the UK as a whole because they are such a strong presence here within the Mudcat Cafe. However, when you think about it, the fact that one or two hundred folkies scattered throughout the UK all seem to know each other so well might indicate that they're NOT a significant subculture in British society as a whole."

Well folks - over here in "lil' ol' England" - what do we think to that!?

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:00 PM

Subculture? What do our American cousins think we are, bacteria?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:21 PM

I hardly know any other UK catters face to face - maybe half a dosen or so.

I am amazed to hear so ill of Nottingham, however. I think at one stage it had 6 folk clubs. When I was last there and had a butchers, a year or so back, there seemed still to be four to half a dozen folk venues within 20 mile. I think that whacks the pants off North Kent.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,Glen
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:59 AM

I'm only 16 and I attend about 3 folk sessions and clubs in my local area every week. I admit, I don't see many people my age around.Its a shame really. Also, I don't feel folk music is in decline; where are live there are many thriving clubs and sessions going on.

Also, I am currently making a website to help the promotion and recognition of folk music in the UK. If anybody would like to check it out and add the details of any sessions, clubs, or festivals you go to in your area I would be much appreciative.

FolkDirectory.co.uk

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Fay
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM

I live in Newcastle at the moment and you can't move for beautiful, talented, committed, enthusiastic young people.

Ah well, grass is always greener!

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: BB
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:22 PM

Good one, Guest Glen. More power to your elbow. I do suggest, however, that only organisers of events should be invited to put details on there, rather than anyone who goes to those events. The organisers may not want their contact details - phone numbers, e-mail, etc. posted on the web. However, it might also be a good idea to get a contact name for each event.

We have a few young people who come to our monthly session, but not nearly enough. We don't have the advantage of a degree course in folk music at our local university - we don't even have a local university!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:21 PM

When I stood in for Vin Garbutt at Faversham Folk Club I was able to yield the floor to a nine year old lad who performed one of my songs acappella...it doesn't get much better than that!

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: shepherdlass
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 04:54 AM

Fay - that's a good point. The super-talented younger generation of folkies may well be temporarily absent from folk clubs in the rest of the country while they do the folk degree at Newcastle! With any luck, whenever they go home for holidays or after the course, they'll be an inspiration to younger people in their own localities.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

Les Barker had the same sort of experience while appearing in a venue in Kent. He fluffed a line, and was prompted by a lad about ten years old, who then recited the rest of the poem from memory along with Les. Les finished the poem with a big smile on his face, and commented quietly "I've never done that as a duet before.

Definitely as good as it gets.......For all present!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM

"Folk in Cellar
         Accoustic Night"
Thursdays At The Constitution Pub 42 St Pancras Way NW1.OQT Thursday every two weeks. 8 pm till late. There will singer song writers, Poets, Folk Music from round the Globe

Thursday 17th August 8pm till late   
Northern Celts,J-Owen and Many More
"Donations Excepted"
see ya all
Les, Emma, Marie,Shuggy,Willie,J-Owen

Contact: Or Les Mobile [phone]

www.northerncelts.com

http://www.myspace.com/northerncelts

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:27 PM

Well, our folk club in Deal nearly folded about 10 years ago but a few of us stalwarts kept it going. After a couple of changes of venue and fluctuating numbers, we now attract sufficient audience and floorsingers to pay for a guest one a month on average. As I run the website, I suppose I should advertise us, so please have a look at www.dealfolkclub.co.uk - I've put a photo gallery on the back page so you can see what some of us reprobates look like - and yes, the average age is well over 40 - photos never lie (well hardly ever!!)

Arnie (not on home computer so no cookie today)

Subject: RE: Folk music in England.
From: fogie
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM

There are in the Borderlands open mikes round here and a group of us run sessions at the local pubs that will have us. Open mikes are a problem if you have very different music side by side, its rather offputting to have to follow a rock band with a gentle song, and audiences take time to readjust.
Has anyone pondered on the fall-out of the famous singers and bands, which covered just about everything in the repertoir in the 70-80s They have left such a heritage of memories its difficult knowing how to put over a song in a fresh way when so many are fixed in my mind by the singers I was first exposed to, and as the repertoir is large but limited, maybe there has to be a fallow period before the songs can be seen in a new light(if ever) The youngsters maybe dont have my baggage.
Tunes seem to be more resilient and I am grateful to those who continue to write lovely new tunes in the folk idiom