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Question To Mormons -Songs

GUEST,.gargoyle 06 Jan 05 - 10:29 PM
Peace 06 Jan 05 - 10:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jan 05 - 11:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jan 05 - 11:55 PM
GUEST 07 Jan 05 - 12:25 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 12:34 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jan 05 - 01:44 AM
Wilfried Schaum 07 Jan 05 - 02:00 AM
Weasel Books 07 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 02:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 03:07 PM
Shanty Filker 07 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM
Teresa 07 Jan 05 - 06:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 06:38 PM
Weasel Books 07 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM
Shanty Filker 07 Jan 05 - 07:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 08:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 08:34 PM
Peace 07 Jan 05 - 08:41 PM
LadyJean 08 Jan 05 - 12:06 AM
Weasel Books 08 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM
EagleWing 08 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM
Weasel Books 08 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM
Haruo 28 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Eric 13 Dec 10 - 02:09 AM
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Subject: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 10:29 PM

(a serious....Spin off from a recent B.S. posting)

There are MANY Latter Day Saint songs which share a common melody/tune from a traditional Anglican hymn.

Seldom, have I read the attribution in the Morman hymnal....but my ear....has acknowledged a "common bond."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Now this IS and American thread!!!!


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 10:39 PM

www.hymns.com/feasting_on_the_words_of_christm.html


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:25 PM

Interesting question. The first Mormon hymnal was printed in 1836, and consisted of 90 hymns, without music. According to this source, most were borrowed from the Baptists or Campbellites. The book was put together by W. W. Phelps, based on a collection made by Emma Smith, Joseph's wife. Thirty-three were of Mormon authorship.
First Morman Hymnal

The website describes the religious archive of Brigham Young University.

Hmmm, now what were the additions and changes with time?


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:55 PM

Discussion of Mormon hymns and hymnody: Hymns
Mentions inclusion of hymns by Watts and Heber in early hymnals. Under Brigham Young, the "Manchester Hymnal" was printed in England in 1840. This went through revisions and additions, in England through 1890, and then in Utah, 25 editions by 1912. No music in any of these.
More revisions, until 1985, when "Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latterday Saints" became official. It contains about one-third of those selected by Emma Smith. Seventy hymns of the 1950 edition were dropped. "Ninety-two new or newly borrowed hymns" were added of which 44 are LDS contributions..."

Many pair an LDS text with borrowed tunes- tunes drawn from many sources- strong preference among the denomination members for traditional styles in music and text- four-part harmony- All of this suggests that tunes from traditional Protestant hymnals may be common.

Unless someone has enumerated which are common to Anglicans, etc., without going through the hymnal tunes, I can't answer. Are you sure the 1985-later printings don't show attributions?


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:25 AM

brucie - if - you can remove yourself from "childs's play".... could you research and post?


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:34 AM

Fouled again
www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/arts/hymns_eom.htm
Hymnal


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:36 AM

In Google as Hymns and Hymnody, but does not work for me.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:44 AM

The Latter Day Saints aren't the only ones to take traditional hymns and alter them. The Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists have made drastic alterations to hymns to fit their doctrine; and Catholics and various Protestants have done the same. I guess since all the various Christian denominations have shades of difference in their beliefs, it's probably right that they tailor the lyrics of their worship songs. The LDS and SDA's and JW's and Christian Scientists make changes that are more drastic than most - to the point where I don't bother collecting their hymnals, since they rarely have lyrics I can trust to be original. I'm wary of songs in Unitarian hymnals, too.
Damn revisionists...
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:00 AM

And then there are hymns changed because of political correctness, e.g.:

... and stop the Pope's and Rurk's murder (Dr. Martin Luther) is now:
... and stop your foes' murder (modern Protestant version)


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Weasel Books
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

Hi, I am LDS and would like to say that we do not alter that many songs and it's noted when that is done. The prefference is for those that don't differ from our doctrine. Can you blame us for that? I know that if I'm singing something, I want to be singing in accord with our teachings.
For tunes, the emphasis is on ease. I have a facsimile of the original collection, which is very nice.
The songs in the current collection are drawn from many sources, including several Protestant or Baptist ones.
A very few are from the English Hymnal.
They tend to have attributions.
Try this link:


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

Dear GUEST: Blow me.

The site I posted takes one to a site on which is the list of hymns that were sung at a stake meeting/conference. I am sorry it doesn't meet your standards. Now, eat shit you rude sonuvabitch.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

. . . and I thought that would be of help. Now, FOAD.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM

FEASTING ON THE WORDS OF CHRIST
Music and the Spoken Word In a Stake Conference
Reported by W. Herbert Klopfer

The sequence of the hymns and their combinations with the speakers:
Saturday Evening Session:

With Songs of Praise (#71)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook
--Invocation

The Voice of God Again Is Heard (#18)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook

The Morning Breaks (#1)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook

--The Keystone of Our Religion (Speaker)

As I Search the Holy Scriptures (#277)
-Everyone sings verse 1 in unison
-Choir sings verse 2
-Congregation sings verse 3 in unison (choir descant)
-Choir sings verse 4

God of our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand (#78)
-Choir sings verses 1 and 2
-Everyone sings verse 3 in unison
--A Pattern for Preparing for the Second Coming (Speaker)

Battle Hymn of the Republic (#60)
-Everyone sings verse 1 in unison
-Men sing verse 2 in unison (everyone sings the chorus)
-Women sing verse 3 in unison (everyone sings the chorus)
-Everyone repeats chorus in unison

--Living In Times of War, Persecution, and Apostasy (Speaker)

Hark, All Ye Nations! (#265)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook
--How To do Missionary Work (Speaker)

Be Thou Humble (#130)
(Everyone sings both verses in unison

--The Dangers of Pride, Materialism and Things of the World (Speaker)

Nearer, My God, to Thee (#100)
-Choir only

--Drawing Nearer to God (Speaker)

I Know That My Redeemer Lives (#136)
-Choir sings verse 1
-Everyone sings verse 2 in unison
-Choir sings verse 3
-Choir and Congregation sing verse 4 in unison, choir descant

Benediction

Sunday Morning Session

High on the Mountain Top (#5)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook

--Invocation

An Angel From On High (#13)
-Everyone sings verses 1,2,3 from hymnbook
-Everyone sings verse 5 in unison

Prepare to Meet God
-Choir only

--Preparing to Meet God (Speaker)

Joseph Smith's First Prayer (#26)
-Choir sings verses 1 and 2
-Everyone sings verses 3 and 4 from hymnbook

--The Plain and Precious Gospel Truths (Speakers)

The Iron Rod (#274)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook

--Testifying with the Book of Mormon (Speaker)

Keep the Commandments (#303)
-Everyone sings form hymnbook

--Keeping the Commandments (Speaker)

Teach Me To Walk in the Light (#304)
-Soloist sings verse 1
-Everyone sings verses 2 and 3 in unison

--Learning to Walk in the Light (Speaker)

Lord, I would Follow Thee (#220)
-Choir only

--Choosing Liberty and Eternal Life (Speaker)

Press Forward Saints (#81)
-Everyone sings all verses from hymnbook

--Spiritual Power of the Book of Mormon (Speaker)

My Country, 'Tis of Thee (#339)
-Choir sings verse 1
-Everyone sings verses 2,3, and 4 in unison



I had thought this might be of help. Obviously not. GUEST: You have no sense of decency. You are a guy who's maybe too lazy to do his/her own research. Develop some class and some manners you bloody twat.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:06 PM

brucie - if - you can remove yourself from "childs's play".... could you research and post?

Many people would have just said thanks. Have your bloody thread.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 03:07 PM

If we may go back to the statement by Gargoyle, he was commenting on LDS hymns that share a tune used in Anglican hymns.

As I understand it, lyrics composed by LDS members and included in the hymnals often (sometimes?) used available tunes. The lyrics, of course, are in keeping with LDS doctrines. A good tune tends to get around, some were secular in origin.

Weasel Books, your link didn't show up. Please try again, or just type it out- takes a while to learn how, and I often foul up.

Copies of the 1985 hymn book are available for as little as $5.00 from book dealers. Now if someone would get a copy and count the tunes also used in Anglican hymns (would require their hymn book as well), we could get a 'definitive' answer.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Shanty Filker
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

Well, I'm LDS, and I believe that all of the hymns in the current ("green") hymnal and the older ("blue") hymnal have tune attributions, although they are somewhat less than helpful. "Scotland the Brave" ("Praise to the Man") is "Scottish Folksong," for example.

It is funny when a song you've sung as a hymn for many years ("If You Could Hie to Kolob"), and suddenly out of the blue you hear the folksong from which the tune was cribbed ("The Unquiet Grave"). I was . . . startled.

Weasel Books: don't get defensive. I know that some LDS hymns are slightly different from the "standard" versions, and there's nothing wrong with altering a hymn to accord with your own view of doctrine. (Although I believe that they didn't make any alterations to "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" . . . but they could only find about two verses that didn't contradict LDS teachings to include in the Hymnal!)

My current obsession is to find a recording of "All is Well," the tune (shape-note sounding to my ear) which was modified to become "Come, Come, Ye Saints." Anybody know of any?

Incidently, the Church's website has a fantastic set of pages for the Hymns, with midi playback of each part (SATB); it also has the attributions, I believe:

LDS Church Music


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Teresa
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:19 PM

Thanks, shanty Filker; very interesting points.   Many in my family are lDS, though I am not. I'm kind of fascinated with the cultural aspects of the church. I could tell a lot of the hymns had folk influences.


Another Filker, :)
Teresa


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:38 PM

Thanks from me as well. The first hymn I clicked on was Adam-ondi-Ahman. I had been at the site of the planned temple many years ago when I was doing field work. Googling on the name, I see the LDS Church has purchased several hundred acres there.
The notes indicate that the tune was Anon., from Southern Harmony. The few notes I checked, if anything, are above average for hymnals.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Weasel Books
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM

I think the original poster was saying that he seldom read the attribution, not that it isn't there.

Hey Shanty, that's my current obsession too! For the life of me can't find the text of the song it is drawn from.

You already posted the link I tried to with that blasted blue clicky.

The music of several of our hymns is folk, British Isles, Spain, Scandinavia...

The music to four hymns are attributed to Ralph Vaughn Williams.

If anyone is interested, the facsimile of Emma's Hymnbook I bought in a bookshop near the Preston Temple.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Shanty Filker
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:38 PM

Weasel Books: here, click on this: npr.org Return to Navoo Story, then click on the "All is Well" clicky about 1/2 way down the page. I've been trying to locate a copy of the CD they say the song is from, but no luck so far.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM

Text of "All Is Well, tune J. T. White," here, for those who are interested. All Is Well
Seems to me I have heard the tune in connection with an English folk song, but I am probably just 'dis-remembering.'


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

Another great Pioneer recording is "Hymns, Songs and Fiddle Tunes of the Utah Pioneers" by the Beehive Band for a copy of this double CD contact Honeybee Recordings, 321 E. 7000 So., Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 944-0525.

The song is on this CD.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:17 PM

"Come, Come, Ye Saints," same tune from J. T. White, 1844, Sacred Harp, mentioned by Shanty Filker, is in the Cyberhymnal. The sheet music is in Southern Harmony, no. 306, but I can't find a recording either.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM

Thanks for the reference to the recording. Didn't catch your post; too wound up trying to find info on google.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:32 PM

1-800-363-4745

Toll free number to order by credit card. About $16.00 plus tax if applicable.

"The Power and the Glory"

O My Father
I Believe in Christ
The Spirit of God
I am a Child of God
Teach Me to Walk in the Light
We'll Bring the World His Truth
Families Can Be Together Forever
I Stand All Amazed
Beautiful Savior
Come, Come Ye Saints
I Know That My Redeemer Lives
Because I Have Been Given Much
I Need Thee Every Hour
I Know My Father Lives


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:34 PM

Me too on Google, Q.

The above is a CD.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:41 PM

PS, A google of "Come, Come Ye Saints" (in quotation marks) will also get you to a site that has a 30 second sound clip (mp3) by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Site is Deseretbooks.com, but it's easier to go with the google because the .com address will take some searching to find the song and the clip. Too daunting a task for me. The CD that has "C,CYS" is available for about $16.00 also.

BM


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:06 AM

I gather one of Joseph Smith's widows wrote a number of Mormon hymns.
I was interested to discover that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir began when Brigham Young heard some Welsh converts singing, and asked them to organize the choir. He said, "I can't understand the words, but I love the music." So, they must have been singing in Welsh.

Martin Luther was baptized, posthumously, into the Mormon church some time ago, so, I suppose, his hymns are now Mormon hymns.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM

He only had one widow, Emma, and she did not write the hymns, just collected them.

The origin of the Tabernacle Choir, is indeed from the Welsh converts.

The work was done for Martin Luther, but whether or not he accepted it, I do not know.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: EagleWing
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

"Copies of the 1985 hymn book are available for as little as $5.00 from book dealers. Now if someone would get a copy and count the tunes also used in Anglican hymns (would require their hymn book as well), we could get a 'definitive' answer."

How do you define an "Anglican" tune? I'm a Baptist but attend Anglican, Methodist and Congregational Churches. We all use pretty much the same tunes as, in many cases, do the Roman Catholics.

It's even getting difficult now to define an Anglican Hymn Book since many Churches these days use ecumenical books like "Songs of Praise" (In England).

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM

Eagle Wing, my remark was tongue-in-cheek. Is there an official Anglican hymn book? Dunno. Since tunes often are borrowed, the task, of course, would be senseless. A tune borrowed from Mozart would be Masonic (OK, not a religious denomination, but you get the point). Should a pre-Henry VIII tune used by both Anglicans and LDS be called Catholic?


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM

It would be called 'non-existant'! ;->


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM

See my new thread on making Mormon hymn texts less so: Adapted Mormon hymn texts.

Did anybody resolve the history of "Come, Come Ye Saints"; was Clayton a Mormon? If so, interesting that The Sacred Harp would have been open to an LDS contribution in 1844.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: Question To Mormons -Songs
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:09 AM

This website has a good explanation of the history of "Come, Come, Ye Saints":

http://fiddle-sticks.com/Liner_Nauvoo.htm#ALL IS WELL - COME, COME YE SAINTS

Its a Harp group that was doing a recording of it in the old "All is Well" style.

The thing to understand is that yes, Clayton was a Mormon, but he was doing the common thing of borrowing a known tune and adapting it when he wrote "Saints."

(Also a good explanation here: http://lds.org/new-era/1975/11/our-heritage-of-hymns?lang=eng)


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