Celtic music

Subject: Celtic music
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 11:53 PM

Hi all.
       Just a thought, i have,im not a whiner ect but i hear lotsa reference to Celtic music,maybe its me but i see celtic music as bronze trumpets with mythical beasts on top being played with drums before battle.in many years BC to mid AD.I play much English,irish,scots,welsh folk tunes but its not Celtic as most of us play and sing lotsa trad stuff,but me with banjo lots with guitar mandolins fiddles ect.Im not opening a can of worms but when i hear concerts,celtis connections ect i wanna see tribes with woad. war drums,brass trumpets ect.

Mybe its me but its just an observation as i reckon the celts where first mentioned by tacitus and julius caesar.

So im wonderin why with our modern instruments why we call it Celtic music.
       Food for thought
                         Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Gedpipes
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:15 AM

Its better than being called Rangers music?

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:39 AM

There is money to be made by calling it "Celtic" music. Otherwise, the term is meaningless, misleading and a waste of space.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST,Jack Orion
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

I have never, for the life of me, understood what is Celtic Music. I know it is folk music of Scotland and Ireland, but why not England? Scots and English music have more in common with one another than with Irish, I would have thought.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM

I'm right there with you all on this. When folks tell me they play Celtic music, I ask them what that is. They, knowing me as a singer who does a fair amount of Irish and Scottish music, look at me like I have a tale.

Celtic is not music. It is a term that loosely describes the early European tribes and civilization. It far too broad a term to describe ones music. I would say that if someone called themselves a "Celtic Musician", they must be VERY talented. It covers a lot of turf.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM

It's a marketing invention, like world music.

The English are a bit touchy about English music being called celtic, on account of real English music being in danger of getting drowned in Irish-theme-pub and tartan-and-bagpipes stereotypes. Not to mention new age "celtic mush" (didgeridoos, synthesisers and excessive reverb)...
no I shouldn't have mentioned that...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM

When I think of Celtic music, I think first of Enya wannabes, self-involved women singing pseudo-spiritual lyrics with too much reverb.

That's a shame, isn't it?

-Joe Offer-

Actually, I like most of what they call Celtic music - but I can't stand the reverb.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM

It looks like there are two options. One is to educate the customer so they will know the proper terminology - which involves discussion from the stage. The other is to let the customer decide. If someone walks up to buy your CD and says that they love "celtic" music - is that the proper time to correct them ? Or do we just say "thanks" and let it go ?

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST,Celts 'R' us
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

aaaarrgghh !!!!

the soundtrack music for the recent Hollywood " King Arthur* " movie..

somebody strangle that woman before shes ever again let anywhere near a microphone and reverb..


* interestingly enough directed by a Black American
former Hip Hop / Rap video director..


shite script.. bloody good fight scenes
[at least in the Directors cut 'more blood 'n' guts' version DVD]

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 08:49 PM

We've had this discussion before. For better or worse, the term "Celtic" has become established (at least in America) as a catch-all covering music based on the Irish, British Isles, and Atlantic Europe (read: Breton, Galician, etc.) musical traditions. Yes it's misleading, yes it's just plain wrong, yes it encompasses some of new age's worst excesses -- but it's here to stay, so we may as well get used to it.

Besides, it's much easier to say "I play Celtic music" than "I play music based on the Irish, British Isles, and Atlantic Europe (read: Breton, Galician, etc.) musical traditions."

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:01 PM

I like:

music-with-stringed-instruments-and-whistles-and-bows-and-buttons-that-can-be-sung-in-English--or-Irish-or-Welsh-or-Cornish-or-Galician-and-some-other-languages-thrown-in-occasionally-and-it-can-contain-New-Age-themes-but-I-don't-like-those-much.

Whew. what should I call it?

:)

Teresa

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:09 PM

[running back to the store counter] Oh, I forgot, it can be sung in Scottish and Breton, too. there might be some other things I forgot; too tired to think of them now. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:10 PM

The reason i brought up this subject was i lookin for some CDs at a music shop.Full of celtic patterns ect,Looked at the back and was greeted bye the Rocky Road to Dublin and Molly Malone.

Thing that got me was they made the album cover Like a Celtic Artifact.
            Bring out them bronze serpent headed trumpets and them war drums.Give me a warband and then im thinking Celtic music is on the menu.

             Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:13 PM

Daftest thing in this line I've seen is the labelling of this event taking place in March - Norwich05 Festival of European and Celtic Music and Dance"

I've no doubt it'll be a very enjoyable weekend - but what the hell do they think "Celtic" music is, if it's not European, at least in origin? Where do they think the Celtic nations are situated?

"With a wide range of dance and instrumental workshops led by the performing bands, and including Tango, French & Swedish Dance, Salsa, Hurdy Gurdy, Violin, Melodeon." Tango and Salsa? Nice music, but surely neither Celtic nor any other sort of European. (And I'm not in any way suggesting they don't belong, just that "European and Celtic" is a remarkably silly label to stick on the event.)

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From:
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:18 PM

Not for me, Michael. You may own to 'celtic music' and get used to it if you wish, but I for one will not have a bar of it.

Anyone telling me I perform 'celtic' music is politely advised otherwise and left in no doubt as to my views on the matter.

The term is, as Anahata says, a marketing invention to make a commercial killing out of wildly promoted, upbeat 'irish' music. Then it was collectively applied to all manner of Irish, Scottish, Breton etc., music

Time and a newer craze will perhaps relegate the expression to history.

Cheers

Jack

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Gypsy
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 09:49 PM

Eh, as long as they tip or pay me, don't really care. We call it traditional european, ourselves, since it is such a big continent.....covers alot of territory. Get far more miffed at people calling my hammered dulcimer a xylophone!

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:01 PM

I still prefer the tag folk or traditional music as it covers a whole range of musical origins, trouble is the marketeers ,as many have pointed out, are pushing the Celtic Button with a vengance to market some pretty awfull compilations and albums of warbling, effleuntreal (sorry ethereal)crap.

Here in Shanghai I found a cd collection of 'Celtic pan pipe mood music', it has not been added to my collection.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Kaleea
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:18 PM

Sell-tick? Kell-tick? The Celts are a people. Their roots ago Eastward across Europe at least as far as Spain, & many believe farther East. The Music of these Celtic Peoples will never be 100% known to us, however, some of the Music of the Itinerant Harpers of Ireland is documented and remains popular among many folks around the world who love "Folk Music"--the Music of a people which has been handed down from generation to generation. The modern day ancestors of these ancient Celts enjoy & play Music which may vary according to region & personal taste. The Music of any region changes over time, yet some is so beloved that it remains after centuries. Some of this Music of the Celtic peoples remains.
    As far as the modern instruments, the guitar has been around for hundreds of years as a version of the many types of the Lute, or Ut, or Oud, which is played today, & was used at Caesar's courts & well before, & is ancient. Ditto with the Mandolin. The Banjo is an instrument which goes back to China, or Africa according to some experts, and is thousands of years old. Modern versions have a metal tone ring which helps to project the sound, and often a synthetic product instead of an animal skin. Otherwise, it is the same instrument. Fiddles have been around for thousands of years. The modern one is held under the chin & has been around for hundreds of years. It is also in the Mid & Far East, it is held on the knee standing up & facing out, with the fiddler otherwise playing it in the same manner--using a bow across the strings and fingers of left hand finding the notes--and that goes back thousands of years.
    The so called "Celtic" Music of today is often defined by the instrumentation as well as the form and style instead of the peoples from which it originated. People change over time, so it is no surprise that their Music also changes.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM

Oh oh, Kaleea, you forgot the bouzouki. ;) That, too, has an ancient lineage.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same." ...

Teresa

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:32 PM

Tut Tut Kaleea
                U forgot the old bone or wooden whistle too LOL.

    What about me bronze trumpets and drums

Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:40 PM

I like it all. Tom ever heard brass Monkey? Oh, sorry, that's English. ;) I love piping and all the above I mentioned, as long as it stirs my soul, call it what you like. I guess I'll call it celtic for now until the English language evolves some more.

Teresa

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:52 PM

I know what u mean Teresa.
                           Its just you buy so many cheesy albums with Celtic covers ect which is not celtic at all most are songs from 19th 20th century with no celtic influences at all.As a banjo player i may take a second instrument a great big bronze trumpet complete with wolfs skull at at the top.give it one huge blast record it a make an album entitled the sounds of the celts hehe.

   Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 10:55 PM

I find the term useful. Yes, it's mis-used, but so are the terms "jazz," and "democracy.," for example, as some of the old Soviet satelite states called themselves "democratic,' and some very soupy, warmed-over stuff gets labelled '"jazz." When I head over to the "Celtic" section of the CD store, I know I'm going to find Scottish, Irish, and maybe Welsh music, not German or Chinese music. If they throw in a few misty mood recordings in with it, I can pass them up and go for what I'm looking for. If I see a Celtic music festival advertised, I know i will most likely find Irish and Scottish, and maybe Welsh music, as northern California's annual Sebastopol Celtic Festival brings in major performers from Ireland and Scotland. Of course, there may be some lousy celtic festivals that do not offer up such fare, but again, you can separate the wheat from the chaff. If a musician hands me a business card that advertizes them as playing "Celtic music on Irish harp,' I know I'm going to hear Celtic music played on an Irish harp, not Koto music (unless they throw in a non-Celtic tune or two). In short, a mis-used, but also well-used and useful term, in my book.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Teresa
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:26 PM

I've experienced this in other contexts, for example, science fiction. There are science fiction enthusiasts who wouldn't be caught dead using the term "sci-fi" because it is used in conjunction with media programs and not literature So the term SF (ostensibly for "speculative fiction" has been introduced.

I suppose if you're "in", you know the right code words. That seems to be a part of human nature. I basically will use the terms most are comfortable with when I'm speaking to them.

As much as I don't like to split hairs, this subject is sort of fascinating to me. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:42 PM

The local festival's solution was to refer to it as "celtic roots", maybe as good as any other defining term for the purposes of marketing and distinguishing it from other themed festivals. But I don't really care since it introduced me to the likes of Simon Mayor, Tony McManus, Lunasa, Crucible, and of all things The Creaking Tree String Quartet (how's that last one for a reach?).

Besides, I get a free t-shirt for volunteering, so I can overlook the niche marketing terminology. I can be bought.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM

In Germany, it's just a label for a certain type of music. The big shops need labels for the 'folksy' CDs to be found.

One shop had 'Barachois' (Canada) under 'Celtic' (well, I can understand them a bit, for the only alternative for music from North America was 'Country and Western'.

We have one alternative label and that is 'Irisch'. I've found the Watersons under 'Irisch', Dick Gaughan, Tannahill Weavers,....

One shop with the two categories 'Irisch' and 'Schottisch' had a CD with songs of Robert Burns under 'Irisch'. I asked them why and they told me that the label 'Schottisch' is only for big pipe bands.

In this context, there is no label 'Englisch' in Germany, never. English folk by default is either under the label 'Irisch' or under the label 'Schottisch' or 'Celtic'. One of the rare situations in this world in which 'scottish' (or 'irish') also includes 'english'. That's a little consolation for the many vice versa instances.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST,D.H.L.
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 01:22 PM

England's folk music is not Celtic. The Anglo-Saxon's displaced the Celtic tribes before the first 500 years A.D.. Some of these tribes went to Wales and Scotland some to Cornwall and other outposts but the "new people" from Germany and the boarder of Denmark spoke what we know today as English. Music or narrative from this time onward should be defined as "English folk". Nuts to the Normans!

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: shepherdlass
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:17 PM

Once upon a time, I sat down with my synth and decided to see how long it would take to cynically program a standardized, aromatherapy-shop "Celtic" track - laid down a couple of swooshy sounds and loads of synth-drones and in half-an-hour I had a version of "Danny Boy" that appealed to a lot of people in the commercial venues I was playing - and, yes, I put TONS OF REVERB on the live flute at said venues. Sad to say, I used it for years because it went down so well.

But then again ... There are LOADS of fantastic, real, gifted musicians out there who sometimes play under the banner of Celtic music, perhaps because they know the hype will help sell their perfectly valid and otherwise uncynical recordings, perhaps because they actually feel it's a reasonable description for music that comes from the fringes of Europe where the Celts settled (Brittany, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall ...). Pierre Bensusan springs to mind as one of the more prominent examples. Surely in this case, it's a perfectly reasonable definition of music that touches on the traditions of all these areas?

I'd suggest that a modicum of common sense is called for. Listen to it. If it's called "Celtic" and is swooshy hyped rubbish, don't bother with it. If it's called "Celtic" and it's great music that speaks to you, then enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

Bloody right-bollox to the Normans, Norse rules here!! (I know the Normans were an off shoot from the earlier Norse tribes-but that don't matter!) Surely "Celtic" music, though I doubt anyone living has ever heard the true music of the ancient celts, is that which, for marketing purposes and also to give it a tag to deliniate it from "English" music, (Though what that is I'm sure would take a long debate)is derived from the songs and tunes of Irish/Scottish and Welsh countries? Or indeeed now written and played by people from these countries and copied by others. There is a certain quality about much Celtic music which is different to the English music of the folk genre. The use of Bodhran, pipes, mandola etc. It has got to be very dfficult to define exactly what "Celtic" music is, given so many external influences on the different countries.When I first started buying folk music in the sixties, there was never a label saying "Celtic" You were lucky if there was a label saying Folk.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

It should be pointed out that two of the world's greatest music festivals - Celtic Connections in Glasgow, getting under way as we speak, and Celtic Colors in Cape Breton - have no problem using the term. Neither, one assumes, do the many world-class musicians performing there.

If it's good enough for them, who am I to quibble?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: mooman
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:02 PM

Nor the grandaddy of them all, the Festival Interceltique in Lorient!

Not being a purist but just having grown up playing Irish music, I don't really care what term is used...only about the music itself.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

How much British (as opposed to Saxon) influence is there in English music?

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:45 PM

Probably about as much American as there is in Bluegrass music.
Wonder what Oakley thinks of all this...........

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

You're probably right Chris, although I was hoping someone would come up with half a dozeen songs that predate the influx of Saxons .

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM

They'd be Welsh in that case (or Cornish).

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 11:07 PM

As a matter of fact, there's a guy in that "King Arthur" film that LOOKS like Oaklet...

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:26 AM

DHL,

The Anglo-Saxons did not displace the Celts in England but the culture did become Germanic. Look at the founders of the Anglo-Saxon dynasties and see how Celtic the names are.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM

Wow, we've had this conversation on a number of occasions. Technically nowadays "Celtic" is a linguistic distinction, so "Celtic Music" is a misnomer. But it's at least as good as most of the other descriptions I've seen.

Whether one can talk about "Celtic" music or not is a subjective judgment, but some of the factual claims being made above are just not true. For example, labeling music "Celtic" did not begin as a marketing ploy to make money in the twentieth century, but as a statement of Irish pride among Irish people in both Britain and America at least as early as the 19th. The use of "Celtic" to express true ethnic pride is found today in Irish-American music (Celtic Thunder), Atlantic Canadian music (Celtitude), Scottish music (The Keltz), Breton Music (Heritage des Celtes), etc. These people aren't just cashing in, they're serious about what they do.

On an academic level, calling music "Celtic" is more or less meaningless...but so is calling music "Irish." After all, Irish music shares tunes with England and Scotland. More to the point, a Donegal fiddler may have more in common with a Scottish fiddler than with a Kerry fiddler. So either we just say "it's all music," or we try to come up with useful categories. Nationalities are NOT good ways to categorize music; you find the same songs, tunes, and instruments on both sides of most national borders in Europe.

To get to the specifically Celtic case, one of the things that happened in the 1960s and 70s was a certain blending of English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Breton, music traditions. Luke Kelly and Christy Moore spent considerable time in the English folk club scene; Andy Irvine sang "Willie O' Winsbury" with a Scottish accent; Ar Log listened heavily to the Chieftains; Alan Stivell played Scottish bagpipes while his father built a "Breton" harp on Irish plans; etc., etc. They did not do this merely to market themselves...I believe these people had a genuine love of music. In some cases, they were also acting out of a sense of Celtic ethnicity.

So what we end up with is a hybrid music. Sure, you could just say, "if the singer is from Ireland, it's Irish music," but that would be just as misleading. If a Scottish person is singing a linguistically Anglo-Saxon ballad to a Breton tune (like, say, Ray Fisher singing "Willie's Lady" to the tune of "Son Ar Chistr,") is it English? Scottish? Breton? If a Breton person is singing an Irish Gaelic song and playing the Scottish pipes with a French guitarist and an ethnically Dutch fiddler (as was the case in some of Stivell's bands), then what is it? Why NOT call it "Celtic?"

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

Nerd: the complication is that you are defending the use of the term "Celtic music", but you are saying that the category includes English music. The trouble is, most people who started using this term didn't include English: they meant Irish, Scottish, Welsh, plus assorted others Breton/Cornish/ Galician etc. But specifically not English. The whole point of the term Celtic was to differentiate yourself from the English. Anyway, I think the term is useless and merely a provoker of ethnic/national hostility when applied to music as it has been in the past. Best kept for linguistic purposes, wjhen it has a precise and definable meaning and is not loaded with prejudice.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:15 PM

I agree with alot of what you're saying, Nerd, except for your assertion that nationalities are not a good way to categorize music. Yes, there is more musical cross-fertilization than probably ever before, but still wouldn't you agree there are very pronounced distinctions made between, for example, Irish and Scottish music ,both in tunes and in the styles in which they are played, even with the melding of regional styles? Just thinking of fiddle music alone, one can see and hear distinct differences in how a tune is played. Thus, a "Scottish fiddler" is not necessarily a person from Scotland, but one who plays Scottish music, has learned from soaking in what Scotland's musicians have passed down, and presumably pays attention to Scottish style; the bowing patterns and embellishments that make the music "Scottish." Unless I misunderstood you, you see my point?

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: shepherdlass
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM

Music and territory - it's a tricky bu**er, in't it?

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:58 PM

who cares

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: belfast
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:46 PM

I found Nerd's comments on this subject so rational that I had to check that I was still at mudcat. Then there's greg stephens' point that 'celtic' is simply a way of excluding or disrespecting English folk music. I hadn't considered this and indeed can see no evidence for it but it's worth thinking about.

Fintan Vallely,on the other hand, suggests somewhere that it's simply a way to avoid saying 'Irish'. I must see if I can find that reference. For myself I thought it referred to rather soupy and gooey (not very precise adjectives, I know) new-age type stuff. Imagine 'Danny Boy' played on panpipes.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: number 6
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 09:55 PM

Bravo Nerd !!

Well said indeed.

sIx

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:37 AM

I agree with nerd, and if that was posted elsewhere it would have gotten a "rational" assessment...
Too many people here are too quick too argue, and not discuss.

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:50 AM

How was I too quick to argue, and not discuss? I believe my post was part of a discussion, after Nerd's post was carefully considered.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM

Not talking about you Chantey. Your cross-fertilization theory is quite sustinct...

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:08 AM

Sorry, chris. After I pressed "submit" I realized I was being to touchy, and that there are others you might have meant anyway. It was a cross-mudcatization. Thanks.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:24 AM

; ) no problem

Subject: RE: Celtic music
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM

History Fact Check
"The Romans invaded lowland Britain in AD 43 and conquered it over the next few decades. As imperialist's, the Roman Governor's chief concern was to exploit the conquered land. The mass of the native British workforce who spoke Celtic language(Celtic Britons) worked for their new masters as 'free', tied or enslaved in the villas, farms and villages which covered southern Britain. By AD 300 the population may have reached as much as four million.When groups of Anglo-Saxon immigrants-who spoke the Germanic ancestor of today's English language- settled in southern and eastern Britain they imposed themselves as masters on the native population."
Although the above may not be an academic definition of Celtic tribal displacement by the invading Anglo-Saxons, it sure was a major fracture in Celtic culture; one that never recovered. This differs from the Norman invasion of England in 1066 where it took three centuries to absorb that cultural genocidal shock but by about 1400 England got back to being English.   DHL