BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:45 PM

Poor taste. Prince of the realm.
You don't often see those two concepts side by side, do you?

Not a hanging offense, I wouldn't have thought.

I really don't see why the royals are so interesting. Is it really front page news that Harry dresses up fancy to go to a fancy dress party? Is it really worthy of a thread on Mudcat?
I guess it is, but I can't see the value in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM

CarolC, it's more like "Everything you know is Wrong."

Guest, Johm O'Lennaine, perhaps the farting in public thread has more value to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:45 PM

I don't know if Harry had the wit to think it through in these terms, but the Afrika Korps uniform is a whole lot less offensive to me than an SS or Gestapo uniform would have been. But even if he'd worn one of the latter, I'd have cut him some slack. As Johnny said, it was just a folly of youth. (I think Johnny's off course with the privacy argument though - we're surely to know anything that points to the mentality of the guy who is third in line to our head of state.) To add to McG's point, is it really so much more offensive to wear a swastika at a fancy-dress party than to do so in a Brit-com ('Allo 'Allo)?

Let's remember we have Mudcatters (including one of Harry's critics above) who "see the point" of fascists like the British National Party. That is surely a good bit harder to understand than Harry's lapse. Anyway, if the escapade has brought the British Republic one step nearer, we should welcome it with open arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:46 PM

20 hm would the goodie two shoes who hadent done something idiotic at that age please stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:04 PM

Good point, Martin. I should have said that too. Everything you know is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:07 PM

No, much (not everything) I know is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: MuddleC
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM

Uniforms are funny things, if I'd have worn my Royal Navy Uniform as 'fancy-dress' (costume party), Id have been on a charge 'for bringing disrespect' to Her Majesty's Uniform, been fined money and given extra duties (cleaning/polishing mostly)....
ergo, wearing any 'Official' uniform to such a party is deemed to be showing disrespect to that particular uniform.

it's good that this uniform is only fit for costume parties, as for 'arry, he's just a spolit oik

now, your average party goer would be wearing an obvious homemade/rented 'mock'up', but borrowing one from P.Mike's of Kent was a no-no, unless it was covered in vomit of course....

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:16 PM

Could be worse- his grandad could have been a Nazi collaborator---
like George W. Bush's.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

"However the whole idea of a Home and Colonial party with an African theme seems a bit distasteful, largely because it's only too likely to be seen as an expression of nostalgia rather than contempt."

I found the "theme" to be quite offensive. As to the "forgive him he is only a tender 20..." BULLSHIT! He is third in line to the British throne. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO TELL HIM NOT TO DO SOMETHING THIS STUPID!!!

The ONLY reason why this matters is because of his official position. As others have said, people do wear these sorts of costumes all the time. There is the "Producers" thing, and many other examples of Nazi uniforms being worn in theatrical and other sorts of settings. Many would find them to be in bad taste, many wouldn't. But no one would suggest it not be allowed.

Harry doesn't have those luxuries of the average Joe though, and therein lies the difference. He is held to a different standard, and should be. Should he be punished by not being allowed into Sandhurst? No. Should he be making his own public apology in a press conference? Yes, at the very least.

And I don't think the Wiesenthal Center's suggestion that he have a trip to Auschwitz is out of the question, though I wouldn't mar the 60th anniversary of it's liberation with Prince Harry at this point. That would be a great affront to the survivors and families of victims of Auschwitz. But certainly, a private trip there by Harry with someone from the Center as his guide might work as a good antidote to his idiocy, and possibly prevent him from doing something this offensively bad next time.

I'm in agreement with CarolC. There will definitely be a next time with this eejit.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM

The combined IQ of his parents pre-determined his intellect. For all his wealth and priviledge he doesn't possess the savvy of a cabbage. If he had to get a bus to the party he may have thought twice about his dress sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

Good idea Guest 5:54! In fact, let that be his punishment! Ride the bus in his costume with no bodyguards!

Bloody brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:00 PM

And here is my advice to the disenfranchised British subjects:

Harry Demonstrates Military Credentials

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

Now the tsunami is out of the way everyone can get back to the really important stuff like this.

This hyped up trivia really is the lead story in so-called serious papers...

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:25 PM

Strange how his aunt at roughly the same age managed to cause a bit of a scandal with her affair with Peter Townsend. He appears to be following in Margaret's footsteps to some degree, with the drinking and smoking as well. Maybe it's something to do with being the 'spare'. I doubt whether his home life has really been well structured for years and get the impression that his father has other things taking his attention. Hopefully Army training should help him grow up, being subject to proper discipline and rules won't do him any harm.

Unfortunately it seems that memories of the Holocaust are growing dim with age - maybe films such as Schindler's List should be compulsory viewing in school, as part of the sylabus. A visit to Auschwitz might be a sobering occasion, particularly if in the company of a survivor of the camps, if one can be found with compassion enough to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:33 PM

Hmm, tough call for Gibson - hates the English, hates royals, is a member of the lunatic right....really difficult.

Humour has to walk the line of shock, because laughter is a defence mechanism. An error of judgment is not a hanging matter.   I don't like the little prat, but steady the buffs. Chill.

Does one feel a hint that to say the reaction is an over-reaction might be catechised as anti-semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:40 PM

Hm I was driving home tonight listening to a phone in. All the over 60's were really angry about Harry - I suppose because the war wasn't just something that took place on the cinema screen, or on the history channel. I don't think the Afrika Corps uniform would be any more acceptable to somebody who lost their Dad or husband or brother to Rommel' s particular brand of genius.

It seems utterly incredible that Harry didn't have someone to advise him against this - given the strength of feeling that still exists.Kids are just SO bloody daft......

its not just old people either, I remember Alexei Sayle saying in an interview he couldn't bring himself to watch Allo Allo, because when it comes to the Nazis, his sense of humour just goes missing.

Having a royal family is a pretty crap idea, but if we have them they can't dress up as Nazis - whatever the occasion. Perhaps we need to have notices hung up in Buckingham Palace and Sandringham:-

DRESSING AS A NAZI IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS RULE MAY LEAD TO IMMEDIATE DISMISSAL.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:47 PM

Why didn't he just go to the fancy dress party as a prince?
surely he must have a princes uniform kicking about the house somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:56 PM

Or as a chimp. Or as that colonial George Bush. Or both at the same time, Steve Bell style...

The funny thing is, when his Dad went along with his lady friend to see "The Producers" a few weeks ago, the musical full of people dressed up in cod-Nazi gear, noone seems to have seen that as worthy of protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:14 PM

For those who "enjoy" the Bush Colonial connection.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushwhiskey.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:17 PM

Poppagator said it- a tempest in a teapot. The press characterizing a North Africa Corps uniform as a Nazi uniform is wrong to start with. Most German soldiers were in the war because they had to be- much like our side.

During the war I was stationed at a camp which also held a German Prisoner of War stockade. Most of those held there were from the North Africa Corps. Good men, some of whom came back after the war and became U. S. and Canadian citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 09:37 PM

What was so bad about "Rommel's particular brand of genius" weelittledrummer? What if his soldiers killed people, and maybe committed a few war crimes? Isn't that what soldiers are supposed to do? Can you really see no difference between a squaddie in Africa and a death-camp commandent in Poland?

I've spent a fair amount of time helping to document genocide, and I know a few WW2 survivors from eastern Europe and the Balkans. I would also be delighted to see the United Kingdom become a republic. But even with this double-edged agenda, I can't get worked up about the present trivial episode. I'd put the reaction against it on a par with trying to stifle the works of Wagner. There are more important things to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 10:42 PM

He's a kid. He's acting out in a way that will embarrass his family. Thats the point. I'm sure we will not see the last of this brat. It was an arrogant thing to do and a way of thumbing his nose to the world. He and Bush would probably understand each other quite well.

Maybe they should send Billy Graham to have a little talk with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:20 PM

One point was raised by a couple of commentators on CNN, where did he get the costume/uniform? One of the commentators was English and claimed that that type of uniform and especially the swastika armband would not be something one could rent. So did it take princely measures to come up with?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 05:38 AM

Well, a quick Google search showed a very large number of fancy dress rental shops in the UK where you could hire a Nazi uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 07:46 AM

This rather brings us back to the other issue.

One can well-understand why this is big new for the media but the point posed in the original post of this thread was about the general wisdom of anybody dressing-up as anybody else for fun.

For in these PC days - folk have recently written in here and objected to folk dressing-uo in mummers plays (for fun and tradition) as being offensive to Afro-Americans and have seriously accused folk who defend this dressing-up of being racist.

If the cast of a west-end play (and film) and of a long-running UK TV series can dress-up in these uniforms and if all the impressionists of Hitler are OK and actors like John Clesse - goose-stepping around in Fawlty Towers are funny - why is anybody dressing-up in any costume, for fun not seen and excused in the same way?

Should fancy dress, costume or themed party's - be encouraged or discouraged because of the risk of upsetting someone? Or is this simply a natter of personal taste - and be left to this?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 08:29 AM

He is third in line to the British throne. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO TELL HIM NOT TO DO SOMETHING THIS STUPID!!!

gee, since when did being born royal automatically confer the wisdom of the ages upon a person? Royals - just like any other person - have to learn through experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 09:14 AM

Man on Radio 5 Live(who got shot down in first Iraq War) was ranting that it was all a JOKE.
I asked him who was laughing.
I still await his reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:26 AM

Hey Richard Bridge, maybe you can take him to one of your lawyer orgies and just let him wear his armband.

Wrong on all points mentioned, counselor.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:33 AM

"gee, since when did being born royal automatically confer the wisdom of the ages upon a person? Royals - just like any other person - have to learn through experience."

Again, bullshit. Children of royals and children of politicians and children of clergy SHOULD be held to higher standards, because their parents have put themselves in positions of authority over the rest of us. By consciously choosing to put one's self in that position of authority, one has an obligation to live as an example to others.

Of course history is littered with twits like Harry and William. It just shows how badly they have been raised. And is one more thing, as if another were needed, to argue for an immediate conversion of the British so-called "constitutional" monarchy to a legitimate republic.

Kick the royal whores off the payroll. This doesn't just make the Windsors look like fools, this is yet another black eye for the Brits. Britain exports the lager louts and lads around to all the colonies--one good example for today is Sir Mark--while at home, the imperialista youth play Colonial and Native dress up.

If the British themselves don't know what is wrong with the picture, then they clearly don't get why they are still more universally loathed than even the Americans. Which isn't easy these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST,freddie starr
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:09 AM

Wondered where it had gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:25 AM

Why on earth should anyone be surprised? The kid has proven himself on more than one occasion to be just that- a Kid who's still pretty thick and insensitive. He looks to be taking after his foot-in-the-mouth Royal Granddad, so again, why is this earth-shattering news which has knocked REAL news off the front pages here in the UK for 2 days??

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:28 AM

Mountains and molehills. Glasshouses and stones. I bet Harry wishes he was as perfect as you feckin' lot. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM

Plenty of fake uniforms at any costume hire shop, robo. Whoever that commentator was, he's talking crap.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:54 AM

Ok...can someone please tell me how Prince Harry's age excuses him? I think any reasonably intellegent ten year old could work out that dressing up as a fascist is a Bad Idea...and Harry is twenty. He's an adult, and an adult (especially one in his position) should be expected to know what is appropriate behaviour, and be able to take responsibility for their actions. Everyone can make mistakes, at any age...but they should make amends for them. In this case that means a simple apology. Let's see if he's got the balls to do it.

Anyway, a Home and Colonial themed party? Good grief...

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM

My dept shares a building with History of Art. Turns out that it was the birthday party of one of their students where this all took place. History of Art people move in entirely different circles to us Archaeology ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Maija
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

I guess all PR is indeed good PR, eh...?

I don't think I'll dress up as a fascist for the Karneval here, though. I don't need the PR :p

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM

Now is anyone seriously suggesting that Harry, despite his lack of years and before he finally left for this party with his Nazi armband - was not fully aware of the possible effects of his actions?

I suggest that he was not only fully aware and would have ignored all of those who would have advised him that his choice of costume was not a good one. But that the effect of this action was the whole reason he chose such a costume. For like most of us - at this age - he is not really concerned with what anyone thinks - except the thoughts, opinion and approval of those who matter to him.

I am sure that he thought that this was a jolly daring prank - to show his chums (espcially his army chums) just what a totally good egg he was.

The best outcome of all this now now would be for him to take a major part with the Queen, in the coming Holocaust Memorial Day on the 27 January. They do say that actions speak louder than words and the resulting publicity from this positive move, can only benefit everone - in the long run.

If other young folk like Harry think that this armband is only about The Producers, false moustaches and silly walks - this will be a good opportunity to show them and remind us - exactly what it is all about.

Many of us would prefer not to know - many of us would prefer not to be reminded and some of us are determined to try and convince the rest that none of it happened............

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: bertie the bolshie
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:32 PM

And you think it was fancy dress.. its their normal uniform.. bloody fascists the lot of them.. need the Romanoff solution. Bloody good chap that Lenin and his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:38 PM

To the last Guest:
"Children of royals and children of politicians and children of clergy SHOULD be held to higher standards, because their parents have put themselves in positions of authority over the rest of us."
"Bullshit" back at you. The children of royals, politicians, clergy, plumbers, truck drivers, and taxidermists should be taught to behave with common decency and consideration for others; they should then be held responsible to the degree appropriate for their age.
"The sins of the fathers shall not be visited on the children" (an approximate quote from memory, but representing one of the prophets fairly). Neither should the social or political position of any parent be put on any developing child like a straightjacket.
This has nothing to do with any defence of the prince, who is easily old enough to know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Many of us would prefer not to know - many of us would prefer not to be reminded and some of us are determined to try and convince the rest that none of it happened............

so - what you are saying is that the painful shameful things in the past should be ignored, disregarded and not taught to children?

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM

No I am sure that from the rest of my post - it was very clear that I was saying the complete opposite.......

But it would appear that this particular child's education did not consist of such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:22 PM

Ever ventured into your favourite local watering hole for a drink and a friendly game of pool on a Hallowe'en night - wearing a Ku Klux Klan costume? Well I did once, and ONLY once.

When I was about 20 years old.

10 minutes in that bar was all I required to fully undertand just how misguided that choice of costume really was. I think the realization dawned just as I ripped off the headpiece, begging the three or four beefy beer-drinkers who'd backed me into a corner not to kill me.

Before that I'd been having great fun, enjoying the complete anonymity afforded by that costume as I presented myself to one acquaintance after another, without a hint of recognition. Mind you, the depth of hatred in their eyes as they turned away had started to unnerve me a bit ...

Now, does committing this crime of costume rank me with the morons, the idiots, the ill-bred, poorly educated ilk of Prince Harry? Well, maybe.   But I do think the incident was more due to the temporary insanity of youth, ignorance and inexperience. After all, the 'friend' who'd persuaded me to wear that (or rather, his!) costume had arranged to meet me at that bar - and stood me up! grrrrrrrr And beyond some vague notion about racism and lynchings gleaned in some far-off high school history class, I had no idea of what the Ku Klux Klan really was.

I did need some education, and I got it - and so will the Prince(s) Royale, by the looks of things.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:25 PM

Young man acts like silly twat. Shock horror, it's scarcely credible is it. Meanwhile, in Sumatra, Iraq, Sudan etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

In answer to Pete K

A couple of years ago I used to do a gig round Birmingham - all the old folks places.

One old guy was ex 8th army. After the gig, which always involved me singing Lily Marlene (if I left it out - it got requested) he would tell me about the time his best friend was decapitated by some mishap involving lid of his tank. i did the gig every month for at least a year and the story never varied.

He had nothing. his point of view was doubtless unimportant, and maybe he missed the clarity of your insight into the north africa campaign. but he gave everything bloody thing he had for this country, including his best friend.

what I was saying is that this radio phone in that heard last night on radio derby, reminded me that this guy and thousands like him don't to want to see Prince Harry dressed up in any kind of nazi uniform.

and the silly young sod should respect that. and we should take that generation's point of view , who did so much for us, very seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Frofprince thanks for making the point much more succinctly than i could have. I went through years of hell and my father was only the local postie everybody but everybody thought they could tell you what to do and how you should live. many the time i wish i had been brave enough to tell them where to get of perhaps i should start now.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:24 PM

frogprince, I might agree with you if it were the father committing the sins...

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

Does anyone suppose there will ever be a Brit royal that denounces the monarchy and demands a republic?

Anyone of these royal leeches could have done the right thing, now couldn't they?

Brits just don't seem to understand--those of us with legitimate constitutional republics like the US & France, would simply never tolerate this sort of appalling shit--not the Nazi costume OR the "Colonials and Natives" party.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:35 PM

You're just so right, GUEST. I really wish we could have US or French style government in Britain, instead of the outmoded old system we run here. Things would start looking up pretty soon, I'll bet!!

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:45 PM

the usual greg stephens distortion of what was said...

no one suggested that britain adopt the french or us form of governance. i believe the suggestion is that britain leap forward out of it's 19th century mindset and join the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Prince Harry and fancy dress.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

Blissfully Ignorant, I'm afraid that you are just that, if this comment of yours is anything to go on: I think any reasonably intellegent ten year old could work out that dressing up as a fascist is a Bad Idea. I was blissfully ignorant myself, on the same point, but a UK poll has just disclosed that for 60 per cent of people under 20, the word "Auschwitz" means virtually nothing. Thanks, ironically, to Harry that might change.

The guy Robomatic heard suggesting that Nazi insignia is not readily available in the UK may have been confusing the UK with certain European countries, in which displaying and trading such stuff is illegal. Until recently this was the case in France, for instance. I don't know whether it is still.

weelittledrummer, take care how far you generalise from one anecdote, especially one that has little relevance. On the front page of today's (London) Independent, a British veteran recalled people going into London in Nazi uniform during WW2 "for a bet". And when he went into Berlin in 1946 he wore an SS shirt. On the specific point about Rommel's army, his words exactly matched the sentiment of mine in an earlier post. He said he and his comrades never regarded Rommel's troops as Nazis - just as fellow soldiers like themselves. "We killed them, just so that they didn't kill us."