BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:26 PM

Well yippee hooray! Our resident dipshit just dropped by with his dipper full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:51 PM

This thread sucks.

I should have let it die but I can't help say that there are some liberals here who are really going blah, blah, blah.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM

CNN's curtrent view:

Journalist: U.S. planning for possible attack on Iran

White House says report is 'riddled with inaccuracies'

Sunday, January 16, 2005 Posted: 9:23 PM EST (0223 GMT)


(NOTICE -- The White house does not specify the inaccuracies.)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has been carrying out secret reconnaissance missions to learn about nuclear, chemical and missile sites in Iran in preparation for possible airstrikes there, journalist Seymour Hersh said Sunday.

The effort has been under way at least since last summer, Hersh said on CNN's "Late Edition."

In an interview on the same program, White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett said the story was "riddled with inaccuracies."

"I don't believe that some of the conclusions he's drawing are based on fact," Bartlett said.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:46 PM

Oh, I'm not saying it would be justified... :-) Just that it may well happen. Aggressors don't like sitting around idle too long without a new glorious "victory" to aim for. That's how Hitler got himself into Yugoslavia, Greece, North Africa, Russia, and finally...the bunker.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:40 PM

22,100 hits on the phrase, so it ovbviously had everyone's wind up at some point around late November.

"UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has said it is "inconceivable" that America would try to bomb Iran.

There has been speculation about whether the newly re-elected George Bush will be more hawkish over Iran.

Pointing to talks with Tehran, Mr Straw said: "I don't see any circumstances in which military action would be justified against Iran, full stop.""

Hope he's right.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:36 PM

Amos, I suggest you keep a close eye on Iran. The Bush administration, emboldened by its apparent re-election, may be looking in that direction sooner than people think. Do a Google search using the phrase "attack on Iran" and find some interesting reading. If you think the war in Iraq is a mess, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:31 PM

Blackening others' names by redefining the terms of the dialogue is not a new art but I have never seen it used so viciously and widely as it has been used by the ruthless Bush machine.

If he could see someway to get away with it, there would be jackboots in the town square celebrating his juggernaut steam-roller triumphs over others, as (of course) a "uniter" -- meaning, someone who builds a united front by forcefully overwhelming all opposition and forcing it into line.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM

Don't Think Like an Elephant by George Lakoff. In this thin but all important volume, Lakoff (a professor of linguistics) dicusses how, within the last few decades, Repulicans of the more neo-con stripe have learned how to "frame the argument." This involves implying or assuming certain definitions for words (generally by grafting well-chosen adjectives to the key words, such as "bleeding-heart liberal" or "tax-and-spend liberal") and then steering you into accepting their definitions. That way, you wind up arguing on their terms, and in that situation, you just can't win.

Never, he says, accept the other person's frame. Never try to argue with him using his terms. Answer him in your terms.

Kerry got snookered on this repeatedly during the campaign. Bush did not. He just kept repeating the same three or four things (carefully framed) over and over again.

Read the book. Most enlightening!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:34 PM

Words draw their meaning from popular agreement and their own history. People like Coulter, for example, try hard to twist those words ignoring thier legacy. They confuse liberalism with a lot of other things including communism, spinelessness, fiscal stupidity, and ineptiotude. Liberals, like anyone else may fall into any of these categories, but not as a function of thier liberalism. The word has a viable and accurate definituion in spite of any efforts to twist that for political manipulation.

Here are a few:

A liberal is a person who supports moderate social progress and reform.
wwwtafe.lib.rmit.edu.au/localgov/313/glossary.html

one who advocates greater freedom
www.wolverhamptonarchives.dial.pipex.com/acc_local_women_glossary.htm

Policies favouring reform and progress especially in government and economics.
www.cbe.ab.ca/b836/curriculum/social/socialgloss.html



A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:18 PM

But the troops here have been defining what they mean by the term as they go, Mcg. You're welcome to toss in a better over-all term for people of similar principles.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

Well said, Frank.

It has been noted by statesmen, philosophers, and religious leaders alike that the true measure of a society is not its power and wealth, but how well it cares for those citizens who, for whatever reason, are unable to care for themselves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:11 PM

Since the term "liberal" can means anyuthing from a kind of fascist to a kind of anarchist, with all positions in between, depending where and when, it seems to me a rather silly one to use either as an insult or as a boast.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

A vote of thanks and a toast to Frank, who is getting it said like it is in the face of tornados of twist and ululations of alteration and founts of falsification from every hand.

Thank you, Frank. Youse is a gent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:05 PM

Lumberjacks are not being attacked by Neo-con wingers.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

"

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

"I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!" Peter says to his Bush-loving evangelical friends at work everyday! Sort of like saying "I'm a Lumberjack-and I'm OK!

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

Socialism has been part of the American tradition in politics for many years. There are different kinds. For example, Social Security is one. Regulatory agencies of the government that protect citizens from private corporate abuse of the environment (EPA), regulation from the harmful effects of many drugs on the market that are indiscriminately promoted by the pharmaceutical companies and watchdogs over the issuance of harmful food products (FDA),
The protection and rights of servicemen and women to receive just benefits for their service, (VA) unemployment insurance, the right of unions to arbitrate and protect the working poor are all vestiges of socialist thought. Whenever socialism and capitalism have a healthy marriage, we see a superior form of government as we have here in the US that acts as a beacon of light for the rest of the world.

This is true nationalism. This nationalism entails the defense of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights from frivolous tampering through the red-herring issues such as gay marriage and flag burning. This nationalism protects the Jew and the Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, Zoroastrian and agnostics, atheists and secular free-thinkers from the bullying theo-fascists that would force their brand of Christianity down the throats of other people and denegrate their beliefs.

The Neo-cons practice their brand of socialism by funding government agencies such as Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. When socialism and nationalism become perverse, it gives rise to institutions such as the Nationalist Socialist Party which was a failed experiment in the thirties in Germany. We see some vestiges of this now creeping into the policies of our country.

Liberals are caring and thinking people. We are not given to marching lockstep into ideologies but give new ideas careful weight. We care about children and their right to health insurance and a decent education regardless of their economic status. We care about the elderly,
And we don't want to see their care compromised and stolen through the wanton gutting of their Social Security. We believe in security for pregnant women through pre-natal and post-natal aid, planned parenthood, and many of us oppose the death penalty because we are Pro Life.

These are all moral issues that we believe in.
Our nationalism and respect for the marriage of capitalism and socialism defines us as social Democrats.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

Brucie, Brucie:

Maiming them is not a good tactic because it makes them into martyrs with their voiceboxes still operational. Look at the consequences in Iraq!!

Best thing is to nuke and pave.

Right?

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 09:56 PM

Couldn't we just maim them instead? That way they cart themselves off.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:54 PM

Heh! Heh! Yessssss, Amos, of course everything will be perfect when everyone is persuaded to become exactly like us...the GOOD people! :-)

Just kill all them that won't, I say!!!! (snarl!)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:38 PM

Little Hawk, you're crazy -- our diversity is the most scary thing about us, to us. If people would only wise up and adjust so they were more like us, all this diversity wouldn't be an issue, and they would be happier for it, too!!!

If God didn't want us to enlighten those not yet up to our high standards of civilization, why'd he put use here, I ask you? Huh, wise-guy?? Riddle me that!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

This rig keeps swallowing my posts. Anyway, my point is that any nation can justify anything it wants to do by declaring the act, "In the national interest". When it gets down to brass tacks, no nation really gives a shit about any other nation if its own interests are at stake.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

Nationalism is very handy when you want to get people to support a war you might want to wage for some quite other reason.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:22 PM

Nationalism is one basis for most wars. A more important basis, however, is the search for profit and control of material resources...such as arable farmland, oil, water, timber, etc...

Nationalism is an arbitrary cultural notion that results in the drawing of fictional borderlines on the natural World and the raising of competitive armies and systems within those borderlines. It is a handy excuse with which to clothe the search for material gains and political hegemony.

Another basis of some wars is differing ideas about religion and other forms of cultural heritage.

Another is racial or tribal identity or even language!

Another is competition between different social theories, such as capitalism and communism.

All of the above divisions are foolish and essentially arbitrary. We could do well to celebrate our diversity, rather than being frightened by it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:19 PM

NEcessity for the good of the nation is the most undifferntiated and unspecific of explanations. It is the one Bush Boy uses more than any other, without substantiating details or particulars, which makes him an air-headed windbag. And a liar.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM

Any nation can justify what it does as in the "National interest". I realize I used the broad brush approach, but I stand by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

Nationalism is the basis for all wars.

Not strictly true, I'd say, though if that had been "for most wars" I'd agree. But there are other loyalties that can be the basis for war as well - religious, ideological and economic.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:26 PM

Nationalism is the basis for all wars.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM

"Better to enjoy life instead of wasting precious time complaining about it." What a sensible thing to say. What a pity to say something like that and then waste time insulting people because of differences of opinion on various topics.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

As for me I fly a US flag if only to keep the "originals" from being the only true patriots.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

(legible version)

One of my favorite Bostonians, Tip O'Neal was famous for saying
"All politics are local"

I moved into a new neighborhood 5 months ago and have noticed that the Republicans have a US flag up all the time. I went to only one neighborhood get together and the neighbors that call themselves "the originals" (for living there the longest) were speaking of the value of many Republican agendas like lower taxes and frivilous lawsuits putting poor Doctors out of work. These were Irish Catholic types mind you. They tell tales of how the street used to have many Democrats but now they have seen the light.

I mentioned the value of stem cell research since Reeves had just died and his bill was before Congress soon to be tabled. I was told, not to go there and I was threatened that that my comment mmight be overlooked only because a am a neighbor. Of course my recounting a Bill Mahre joke did not help. Since then one neighbor told me obliquely to shut the fuck up by saying shut the fuck up. The husband of the woman who told me not to "go there" now makes a great effort to spit if I happen to see him.

The Bush bumper sticker people here usually have military service history and have kids in the service. They are approachable but wary.

There is probably a silent magority of Democrats here but neighborhood net working is not their priority. They probably feel the same as the family on the corner from France.

If for me I fly a US flag if only to keep the "originals" from being the only true patriots.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

One of my favorite Bostonians was famous for saying
"All politics are local"
I moved into a new neighborhood 5 months ago and have noticed that the Republicans have a US flag up all the time. I went to only one neighborhood get together and the neighbors that call themselves "the originals" (for living there the longest) were speaking of the value of many Republican agendas like lower takes and frivilous lawsuits putting poor Doctors out of work. These were Irish Catholic types mind you. They tell tales of how the street used to have many Democrats but now they have seen the light.

I mentioned the value of stem cell research since Reeves had just died and his bill was before Congress soon to be tabled. I was told, no I was threatened that not only would we not go there but my status as a good neighbor was in the balance. Sine then one neighbor told me obliquly to shut the fuck up by saying shut the fuck up. The husband of the woman who told me not to "go there" now makes a great effort to spit if I happen to see him.

The Bush bumper sticker people here usually have military service history and kids in the service. They are approachable but wary.

There is probably a silent magority of Democrats here but neighborhood net working is not their priority. They probably feel the same as the family on the corner from France.

If for no other reason as to keep the "originals" from being the only true patriots, I fly a US flag.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

You have now succeeded in completely derailing my train of thought, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:05 PM

I have to say that I agree fervently with Leonard Bernstein's sentiments.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

Damn straight! Between the forbidden temptations of Hillary Clinton on one side and William Shatner on the other, WHO can keep their mind on politics?

Hmmm. I wonder if I could talk Bill into doing a movie and starring opposite Hillary? Gad! What a combination. Gotta do it. Gotta.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Nancy King
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM

Well, so much for the subject of this thread. The kindergarteners have taken over.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:39 PM

Little hawk

Sorry that thoughts of Hilary are rattling you.

I think Amos has got a page of Hustler open where she is doing the gape.

I guess you are now done for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Teresa
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM

I'd much rather think about william Shatner naked.

I think.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:31 PM

Are you asking me or Amos that? Look, you've got to stop it NOW or else I am going to lose a whole day's work here.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM

Amos, please cross your legs. Your breath is killing us.

Have you been thinking about Hilary's bush(sic) like I've asked you to?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:26 PM

I am delighted to hear you don't care, Martin!! I was afraid you were taking this crap of yours seriously.

And you make your not-caring fulsomely obvious, like a rotting mackerel in the moonlight.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:26 PM

Christ! Don't start talking about Hillary naked, Martin! I have work here I need to get done today, and I must concentrate on it! Sheesh! You know that's a weak point with me, man...

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:22 PM

Give up what?

who cares? I don't

Look how much time you waste on me. why don't you think about Hilary naked or something?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:21 PM

"Casus Belli"??? Holy flip, I never seen it called that before! That sounds totally gross and disgustiong, eh? What makes you thimk Martin Bibson don't have one, Amos? Maybe you are right, eh? Cos if he don't have one, he could get real frustrated and maybe take it out on people. That's my theery, eh? He probally lost it in a industrial acsident or somethin'.

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:17 PM

Well, I confess to be a little judgemental.

But...aren't you being a little more so with your scurrilous insults and name calling?

Give it up , man. You're outnumbered, outgunned and you don't even have a casus belli.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

Well, Amos.

I think it was you. And shove your judgemental self up your own ass sideways.

You are obsessed with having an effect on everything. You don't.

You are just an old doper looking for a life.

You pinhead.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:09 PM

The only person Martin Goofball makes a fool of is himself. Doesn't take much work, though.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:59 PM

You have no reason to make a fool of anyone, Martin, but you pursue it zealously regardless. You are psychopathically anti-social, an abuser of innocent bystanders. You are obsessed with having no effect created on yourself, but creating bad effects on others, a goal which can only be characterized as evil.

No, it wasn't me. More your sort of stunt than mine.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:43 PM

I only post as Martin Gibson, Amos. Posting as a guest for me has no impact.

I have no reason to make a fool of you when you do it so well everyday.

Apparently some guests are hunoring themselves. Unless of course that really was you above my post.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM

The 14-5 03;29 post is probably by the same joerk who wrote the post after it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:32 PM

I don't see what's so incoherent, Dog Genes.

But I am surprised at your sexual preferences.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM

Diogenes, please don't talk to him and I will continue to pleasure you orally as I know you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:27 PM

"Well I say it is Amos and I am not paranod.

"You, by telling me it isn't, for sure makes it so because you are one of the biggest liberal dopers around."

Jaysus!! That's totally incoherent!

"paranod." That requires two heads, which I don't doubt Martin Gibson has, but neither of them work. They're both up his "squirming asshole."

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

LH

I beg of you! Let's have fun!

Squirming assholes like Amos can take a sleeping pill if it's too much for them.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Nancy King at work
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Count me among those proud to be a liberal!

Seems to me Bernstein's definition of "liberal" is so classical as to be irrelevant to the current problem of the word being used pejoratively -- "the dreaded L-word." If "liberal" equaled "free" or "freedom," then virtually all Americans would claim to be in that category.

I think Donuel came closer to defining what is currently meant by political "liberalism" as opposed to political "conservatism." (Let's leave out the issue of conserving folk songs for the moment...) Bobert makes some good points about control of information, too. The problem, it seems to me, comes with the "liberalism equals socialism" idea, and Little Hawk has addressed that matter pretty well.

Personally, I blame Michael Dukakis for the present-day hatred of "liberals." During the 1988 Presidential campaign, when George-the-Elder and his campaign flunkies started accusing him of being a "liberal," as if that were something bad, Dukakis had a perfect opportunity to respond with something like, "Yes, I am a liberal, and I'm proud to be one, and here's why: we liberals support ordinary Americans instead of favoring big business and the rich..." etc., etc. -- maybe even getting into some of the stuff Bernstein talked about. It would be -- and would have been -- easy to make an eloquent and convincing case.

Instead, Dukakis started whining, with the equivalent of "Mommy, he called me a liberal!" thereby giving credence to the idea that being a "liberal" is a bad thing. People have been putting down "liberals" ever since.

Nancy

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM

LH:

Desist, I beg you, from fomenting this asshole and his tunnel-vision, mischaracterizations, insults and abusiveness. Why encourage sadism in the demented?

Enough of his nonsense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

Tune to the big prize fight in the insanity thread, Martin! (and thank your lucky stars for the benefits of socialism...) (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:45 AM

Well I say it is Amos and I am not paranod.

You, by telling me it isn't, for sure makes it so because you are one of the biggest liberal dopers around.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:23 AM

No modern society is capable of functioning without a good deal of socialism. Therefore, we obviously would need liberalism, if Martin's defintion were correct (which it is not).

People who are afraid of "socialism" think of it in all-or-nothing terms....meaning...they thing that to have socialism means that EVERYTHING must be socialized. Not so! Most (if not all) societies mix socialism and capitalism, letting each do what it does best.

Socialism is needed when: you have a situation that is not necessarily profitable and attractive to private investors in itself, but...it needs to be done ANYWAY! You then do it through public funding, paying the workers with government salaries. You raise funds through taxes, rather than through sales or advertising.

Thus, we have socialism to provide an armed forces, police forces, educational systems, environmental protection systems, various medical systems, courts and justice systems, and so on, and so on.

In a system where absolutely NOTHING is done unless there is a profit to be made from it, you abandon society to robber barons and you consign a great many people to lives of unspeakable misery. Consider the Five Points district in New York City, as depicted in the movie "Gangs of New York". That was a spectacular example of what happens to a lot of wretched people in a society so completely lacking in wisdom as to have, basically, NO socialism. (or almost none)

To assume that "socialism" means: EVERYTHING must be socialist is as dumb as to assume "capitalism" means: EVERYTHING must be capitalist.

Wrong in both cases. A modern society that works well is a combination of the two. Capitalism drives activities that are, by their nature, profitable. Socialism safeguards people in areas that are NOT by their nature profitable.

One more example: We have many privately-owned radio stations in Canada. On them you get to hear the mass-produced commercial music that is pushed by the main music industry. Fine. That's their job. We have a socialized radio station in Canada, called CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). Because the CBC is publicly funded and not subject to ONLY the profit motive in its decision-making you get to hear Canadian folk music, interesting talk shows, and other highly intelligent and wonderful stuff that you will NEVER get to hear on private radio stations, because they can't sell 125 million dollars worth of CD's of that stuff!

Anyone who can't see the tremendous advantage to Canadians in having a national radio station that is funded through socialism is...number one: ignorant...and number two: probably suffering from some sort of mental delusions about the "evils of socialism".

If you get scared at the thought of one socialist radio station existing alongside hundreds and hundreds of privately run radio stations, then you are probably scared of your own shadow too, I'd say.

Long live Canada, and long live socialism alongside capitalism!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

Martin:

Liberalism does not "equal" socialism, except in the minds of paranoids.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:36 AM

right Ann Coulter is right at home in a pubic hair convention.

I once was a hippie liberal and decided it was a waste of time. Better to enjoy life instead of wasting precious time complaining about it. And complaining is what liberals do best.

Liberalism equals socialism.

America needs nationalism.

Frank has to be commended for his cut and paste talents, but not many others.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:21 AM

>>the USA was established as a libewral democracy.<<

That sounds like something Barbara Walters might have said.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 10:36 PM

I am a small 'l' liberal and proud of it.

In B.C. the Liberal Party is anything but liberal. They are capitalists who profit by manipulation and lies.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 10:06 PM

You know, Frank, I'm not too sure that there ain't one heck of a lot of "liberals" in the US, even those living in the South...

I think the problem is more about the control of information and what we have is a small minority of very wealthy people who have not only highjacked out government but are also controling the information that the average American has available to him to act as a responisble member of a democratic society...

I'm sure that most everyone in Europe look at the US as a dumbed-down society and for the most part that's true. But on the positive side, I don't hink that people are any dumber as in not being able to learn, just ignorant because the infomation is so carefully controlled. Throw in the very tricky propagada that this small minority who has taken power and you have a very bad mix on your hands...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 09:05 PM

LOL Amos, Arise ye starvelings from your slumbers!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM

We are trying to conserve a liberal value (the creativity and aesthetics of music) which can only be truly exercised under the conditions of liberal rule (i.e., the rule that freedom is the highest good).

If you want an example of music under other sorts of rule, imagine a hotel in which all the guest were awoken by little speakers which could not be turned off or down blaring the Internationale at 6 AM. That's the way it was in Moscow in 1967, I have learned from one who was there.

Even under liberal rules, Russian songs tend to be lugubrious affairs about the undying love of birch trees, but even that beats the Internationale on a 2-inch speaker!

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Teresa
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:29 PM

Yes.

In a way.

Ah, labels, such ;treacherous quicksand. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:16 PM

I hate to say this, but seeing as we spend a lot of time preserving folklore and song. Aren't we all conservatives;-)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM

It's really easy to be a liberal and getting easier all the time. In FDR's time if you got a CCC job instead of wallowing in jobless depression, you were enjoying liberalism. If you received the benefits from Social Security or the GI bill you were a beneficiary of liberalism.
Today if you support the separation of church and state you are a liberal. If you do not want the church deciding your medical treatment you are a liberal. If you believe in evolution or astronomy you are a liberal. It's getting easier to be a liberal. However it may not be as safe.

Today the new conservatives remind me of corporate communists covered with a sweet frosting of religious fascism. In the USSR there was often an official party member at ones workplace whose job was to inform the government of any hint of dissent or unpatriotic leanings. These party member informants would collect information on their "victims" from libraries, friends and family. If a transgression became evident the subject of investigation was put before a military tribunal and often sent to a free speech zone gulag.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

Actually I think Doug is actually a liberal but doesn't know it. A liberal conservative no doubt, but that's just another sort of liberal. As your General Weesley Clark commented during the campaign, the USA was established as a libewral democracy.

I can't quite understand what Doug sees in those far-right fanatics in power in the USA, who clearly have no understanding of either liberalism or conservatism.

Somehow labels can work like blinkers all too often, and stop us recognising the truth about the vile people who can sometimes usurp the labels which we prefer to use.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:19 PM

The German 'Liberale' are the most right wing party in our parliament (of five parties). Language is a funny thing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM

Amos, don't group DougR along with Kay Harmony. Doug is a much, much better person.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:59 PM

Actually, Martin appears to despise Ann Coulter, according to what he said in some other thread. He also appears to despise liberals.

It requires further investigation, I think. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:45 PM

A liberal is a man or woman or child who looks forward to a better day, a
more tranquil night, and a bright and infinite future. What can possibly
be wrong with that? Only this: that the word has been debased, defamed and
totally misused by powerful interests that have sought even greater
authoritarian power.

Liberal is a word soiled by the greedy, reactionary, backward-looking
impulse toward tyranny.


Let us now give thanks to DougR, Martin Gibson, and others who worship at the foaming altar of Ann Coulter, who more than any other voice distorted a fine word into a condemnation through her mindless fits of ill-conceived tantrum. And to those like her who took up the baton and mad high virtue into mud for the sake of some personal benefit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:41 PM

I remember denying that I was a liberal, only because "liberal" wasn't far enough *left* -- as per Phil Ochs' "Love Me I'm a Liberal."

At this age, I suppose I'm not as radical as I was back then, so I suppose you can count me in, too -- another liberal and proud of it!

(Still not an LBJ-type lib, tho.)

Subject: BS: I'm a Liberal-and proud of it!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM

I'm a Liberal - and Proud of It

by Leonard Bernstein

I have just returned from two months in Europe, where I followed the
election news assiduously. I've been appalled at the passivity of the
electorate, at the lack of the elementary principles of democratic thought
and action, at the degeneration of our language, at the lulling, the
brainwashing, the disinformation.

I found most Europeans equally appalled. I began to dream about this
campaign obsessively. I would dream-up speeches every night and each
morning I would jot down notes about them -- on subjects ranging from
racism to the grand illusion of the peace-and-prosperity line put forth by
the meretricious Bush campaign, to Boston Harbor, to the obsolete folly of
war, to that newly naughty "L-word"-- liberal.

I want to re-define the word liberal, not run from it, nor cower
defensively at its insulting abuse, but proudly to clarify it, even at the
expense of being a bit didactic. The word derives from the Latin liber,
meaning free (it also means a book, and also one's child, both of which
are also good things to have around.

From the word liberal, we derive the word "liberty," which is what the
civilized world has been struggling for throughout its history -- whether
through reform or revolution, including our own American Revolution.
George Washington was revolutionary, as were Jefferson and Franklin.
They and the other founders strove for liberty above all. All these
forefathers were
therefore liberals.

A liberal is a man or woman or child who looks forward to a better day, a
more tranquil night, and a bright and infinite future. What can possibly
be wrong with that? Only this: that the word has been debased, defamed and
totally misused by powerful interests that have sought even greater
authoritarian power.

Liberal is a word soiled by the greedy, reactionary, backward-looking
impulse toward tyranny.

Here are just two out of, alas, dozens in our own America and in our own
century: First, the hateful Red scare invented and perpetrated by William
Randolph Hearst in the first decades of the century and magnified through
his countless newspapers and magazines into a panic in which everyone with
a beard was probably a Bolshevik with a bomb in his pocket -- aimed at
you, and in which merely reading a Russian novel rendered you suspect and
possibly treasonous.

The second example, even more hateful and infinitely more dangerous, was
the rise of McCarthyism in the 50's -- a rise so steady and so strong that
only a prolonged television hearing could expose the despicable junior
senator from Wisconsin for the power-greedy psychopath he was. This is
arguably the closest we have come to tyranny.

Tyranny? In our free, beautiful, democratic republic? Yes. It is possible
and even probable, which is why we must constantly guard against i
Tyranny assumes many forms. To tax the factory worker and the outright
poor so that the rich can get richer is tyranny.

To call for war at the drop of a pipeline (while secretly dealing for
hostages); to teach jingoistic slogans about armaments and Star Wars; to
prescribe the weapons industry for the health of our doped-up credit card
economy; to spend a dizzying percentage of the budget on arms at the
expense of schools, hospitals, cultural pursuits, caring for the infirm
and homeless -- these are all forms of tyranny.

Who fought to free the slaves? Liberals. Who succeeded in abolishing the
poll tax? Liberals. Who fought for civil rights, women's rights, free
public education? Liberals. Who stood guard and still stands guard against
sweatshops, child labor, racism, bigotry? Lovers of freedom and enemies of
tyranny: Liberals.

I dreamed all this and wrote it down. And I dreamed I heard [the
Democratic candidate] say: "I'm proud to be called a liberal. I am neither
a Red nor
an anarchist, nor do I have a bomb in my pocket.

"I love my country -- so much, in fact, that I am putting all my energies
into seeing it to a better day, a more tranquil night, a shining and
limitless future. And I abide by the words of that splendid liberal Thomas
Jefferson that are inscribed on his monument in Washington: 'I have sworn
upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over
the mind of man.'" I, too, am a liberal.

October 1988