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BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief

NH Dave 15 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM
GUEST 15 Jan 05 - 01:50 AM
Teresa 15 Jan 05 - 03:18 AM
GUEST 15 Jan 05 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Leadfingers 15 Jan 05 - 06:23 AM
GUEST 15 Jan 05 - 08:52 AM
Donuel 15 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM
GUEST 15 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 15 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Giok 15 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM
dianavan 15 Jan 05 - 03:02 PM
Raedwulf 15 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM
Raedwulf 15 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM
Raedwulf 15 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 15 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM
Liz the Squeak 15 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM
Barry Finn 15 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM
Barry Finn 15 Jan 05 - 11:41 PM
Kaleea 16 Jan 05 - 01:00 AM
CarolC 16 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 05 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,heric 16 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM
CarolC 16 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM
CarolC 16 Jan 05 - 01:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Frank 16 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Jan 05 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jan 05 - 08:02 PM
Kaleea 17 Jan 05 - 03:43 AM
CarolC 17 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,heric 17 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Giok in the blizzard. 17 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM
CarolC 17 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,heric 17 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM
Grab 17 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Giok in the blizzard. 17 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM
nutty 17 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM
CarolC 17 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM
hesperis 17 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,heric 17 Jan 05 - 04:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,heric 17 Jan 05 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,bflat 18 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM
dianavan 18 Jan 05 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 18 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Giok in the blizzard. 18 Jan 05 - 09:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM
CarolC 18 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM
CarolC 18 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 05 - 06:09 PM
CarolC 18 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM
dianavan 18 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM
NH Dave 19 Jan 05 - 02:03 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,petr 19 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM
CarolC 19 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

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Subject: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: NH Dave
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM

Listening to BBC Worldwide and Deutche Welle radios during the wee hours of the night, it seems that the US has already spent/provided much of its pledge to the victims of the tsunami. (This is over and above the carrier group whose helicopters are moving supplies from airheads, where conventional cargo planes drop their loads, into the rural and devastated areas where it is still needed, or the MASH type relief hospitals that have been erected by US military forces to stem the spread of and help treat the resultant flood borne diseases like cholera and dysentary.) So far, however, I have not heard anything indicating that ANY of the pan Arabic/Muslim countries have given or even offered any aid to these people, most of whom, at least in the Sumatra region, are Muslim.

   I find it odd or perhaps ironic that the country universally accorded the title, The Great Satan, seems to have done more for these people than any Muslim country of which I have heard. Further, the Tamils, a upstart Muslim group in these parts has actually hindered aid getting to their people, on the basis that it is not coming from or through their political groups(where it can be siphoned off for their own use). This, of course, while we are still engaged in action in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:50 AM

Good Point Dave...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: Teresa
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:18 AM

I haven't seen any figures on Muslim countries' donations to the relief effort. But if this is the case, it could be due to Fundamentalism of the various Muslim sects. Or perhaps ethnic bigotry? It's an interesting issue.

Teresa


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:31 AM

Found this:
Sorry about cut and paste but hey...it's way early in the morning here.

"After slow start, Arab countries crank up tsunami relief
Initially criticized for a weak response, Gulf states have increased giving as much as 100-fold.
By Nicholas Blanford | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

BEIRUT, LEBANON - When Saudi Arabia held a 12-hour telethon last week, it not only raised $82 million for the victims of the Asian tsunami disaster, but it also helped quell accusations that the oil-rich Gulf states have been indifferent to a tragedy that left more than 100,000 fellow Muslims dead in Indonesia alone.

Saudi schoolchildren handed over their daily allowances, and one woman dropped her gold bracelets into a collection box as religious clerics, businessmen, and sports personalities broadcast appeals for generosity.

Other Gulf states, also stung by criticism, have increased their contributions, with Kuwait over the weekend raising its $10 million pledge to $100 million.

While the tradition of donating funds to victims of international disasters is often well-entrenched in the West, for many Arabs, giving to worthy causes is a luxury they can ill afford given the poverty and conflicts roiling the region, say observers.

"This is not how things should be," says Abdullah al-Faqih, professor of politics at Sanaa University in Yemen. "But we have to keep in mind that the Arabs live these days in extraordinary circumstances. They lack the freedom to organize and to express opinions, and consequently the freedom to initiate positive responses to crises."

Two-thirds of the fatalities from the Dec. 26 tsunami were from Indonesia, a country with the world's largest Muslim population. The Indonesian government has refrained from public comment, but the slow response of their fellow Muslims in the Arab world has been noted.

"Generally speaking, people [here] are quite disappointed" about the Arab reaction, says Azyumardi Azra, rector of Indonesia's State Islamic University.

"The West responded quickly. They [the Arab world] have been pretty slow," says Nasrullah Djamaluddin, chief imam of Indonesia's Istiqlal Mosque in Jakarta, the largest in Southeast Asia. "But we happily accept all help," he adds.

Malaysia's opposition leader Lim Kit Siang was more forthright last week, slamming the Gulf states for their "cold and indifferent attitudes."

Of late, the tradition of zakat, the religious obligation on all Muslims to donate part of one's income to charity, has become harder to fulfill due to the closure or freezing of many Islamic charities as part of the campaign to block terrorist funding, experts say. The Saudi government in June announced plans to dismantle all international charities in the kingdom and place their funds in a state-controlled commission to thwart the funding of terrorists.

"Religious philanthropic organizations, which used to be the main vehicles for Middle Eastern societies responding to internal and external emergencies, are almost extinct," Mr. Faqih says.

Arab government and popular reaction to the Asian disaster picked up after the Kuwaiti media published some barbed editorials on the "paltry" initial response.

On Jan. 2 Al Qabas, a Kuwaiti newspaper, criticized the contributions of Gulf states, highlighting the Kuwaiti government's initial contribution of $2 million as a reflection of the disregard many Kuwaitis feel toward the thousands of Asians working in the country. Migrant workers from Asia represent the bulk of the estimated 12 million expatriates working in the Gulf, outnumbering the indigenous Arab population. While most of them earn livings as servants and construction workers, many have white-collar jobs as engineers and managers in the oil and gas industries.

"There is a structural link between the Asian laborers and the wealth of the Gulf states, and that's the moral responsibility we should have acted upon immediately," says Rami Khouri, editor of Lebanon's Daily Star newspaper.

Initially Kuwait offered $1 million on the day of the tsunami, then doubled it. A few days later, the contribution increased to $10 million and has now soared to $100 million. Of the $100 million, 30 percent will be in cash and the rest will fund reconstruction projects managed by the Kuwaiti Fund for Economic Development.

Other Gulf countries have also stepped up their donations, partly in response to criticism and also as the magnitude of the disaster became clearer.

Saudi Arabia raised its contribution from $10 million to $30 million, with another $101 million from public donations. The Saudi-based Islamic Development Bank has allocated $10 million in emergency relief as part of a broader aid package.

The United Arab Emirates raised its donation from $2 million to $20 million last week, while Algeria, Bahrain, and Libya have pledged $2 million each. Other Arab countries without the Gulf's oil wealth such as Syria, Jordan, and Egypt have sent planeloads of food, medicine, drinking water, and blankets.

The public response has also accelerated as Arabs watch images of suffering and devastation on their television screens. Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel last week launched a campaign to encourage donations.

Record oil prices have swelled the coffers of the oil-producing Gulf states in recent months. Kuwait, which is running a $10 billion budget surplus, handed out $700 million to its citizens.

But some other Gulf countries cannot afford such generosity. Saudi Arabia, despite a reputation for ostentatious wealth, badly needs the additional revenues to lessen the kingdom's $163 billion public debt and provide jobs for the rapidly expanding population.

"The British economy is bigger than all the economies of the Muslim world, and the wealth of Israel exceeds all the wealth of the Gulf countries, yet the kingdom which has offered aid and collected donations gets criticized," Al-Riyadh, a Saudi newspaper, said in an editorial, one of several defensive commentaries in the Saudi press.

Abdulaziz Sager, chairman of the Dubai-based Gulf Research Center, says that the issue of donating to the tsunami disaster has "unfortunately, been politicized."

"In terms of GDP and population size, the contribution of [Gulf] countries is not insignificant," he says.

Indeed, on a per capita basis, the contribution of Gulf governments matches or is greater than that of many Western governments.

For example, the US's pledge of $350 million in public money represents about $1.20 per person. Meanwhile Kuwait's aid amounts to over $44 per person and Qatar's $25 million pledge is nearly $30 per person.

Furthermore, the countries of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) have a history of providing humanitarian aid and funds, Mr. Sager says, citing the 2001 earthquake in the Indian state of Gujarat that killed 20,000 people, and last year's quake in Iran in which 26,000 residents perished.

Still, Professor Faqih takes a more skeptical view of the Arab aid effort.

"From my standpoint, a culture of giving is associated with a culture of tolerance, equality, openness, and respect for others' freedoms and rights," he says. "Therefore, a culture hospitable to giving is still largely missing in the Arab world."

• Tom McCawley contributed to this report from Jakarta, Indonesia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST,Leadfingers
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 06:23 AM

Dave - you do raise a very good point , but your comment about the'upstart Muslim group' by which I assume you mean The Tamil Tigers
The Sri Lankan government is not exactly bending over backwards to let any aid get into the areas controled by this Tamil Independence movement .


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 08:52 AM

And one of the greatest tragedies is that over 2 million have died in the conflicts in Sudan, with no Western relief efforts yet in sight.

Also, I was talking with my cousin the other night, who is the executive director of the regional food shelf network here in the Twin Cities, and she said the local food shelves here are bare. When the tsunami hit after xmas, traditionally a difficult month for the organizations that deal with winter crises in the lives of the American poor, aid to local relief evaporated over night.

I don't begrudge a dime sent to tsunami relief. But I also know the relief is likely not getting to women and children (perhaps some of you have noticed who the "recipients" are of the food drops, etc? All men. A lot of the food and water will be stolen from recipients and will be available in many areas only through a black market.

And the saddest thing about all of this is that in this day and age, it never has to be like this. If we put even half of the resources and organization into providing relief and raising living standards world wide rather than to militarism every year, poverty on the entire planet would be largely gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

Western donations have amounted to over 7 billion dollars.
Iraq war "to depose Saddam and his WMDs cost 150 billion so far with 400 billion on the horizon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM

Saw a news report this week that showed how looters have been stealing from abandoned rooms in resort hotels. Lord knows how many dead bodies have been robbed as well, but you'll never stop those type of people and I still sent money to the appeal.
There were also reports over the years that Gadafi paid a bounty to the family of every Palestinian suicide bomber, I wonder if he gave to the tsunami appeal?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

Giok, it is truly sad to see your hatred of the Arab world blinding you like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM

So far, however, I have not heard anything indicating that ANY of the pan Arabic/Muslim countries have given or even offered any aid to these people

It's so easy to make negative assumptions about people based on what you have not heard. It takes a little more effort to find out the truth, as GUEST,15 Jan 05 - 04:31 AM has done, so that you don't find yourself guilty of spreading hateful rumors and innuendo based on what you don't know. (Although I notice the author of the article in that link just couln't resist ending it with a nasty little sideswipe at "the Arab world".)

So far, I have not heard anything indicating that NH Dave is not pedophile.

(See how that works, Dave?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

Where on earth did NH Dave get that about Tamils being "an upstart Muslim group"? In fact there are about 70 million Tamils, mostly living in India. Most of these follow a variety of Hinduism, with a minitity being Chruistian or Muslim.

Three million or so Tamils (mostly Hindu) live in Sri Lanka, where there has been conflict with the predominantly Buddhist Sri Lankan population and government for years.

It woudl ahve taken NH Dave only a few seconds to check and correect his   comment there. This would of course have slightly undermined his anti-Muslim remarks, but on the other hand when we get a basic fact like that wrong we effectively destroy the credibility of anything we write anyway.

One thing to remember about the Middle East - where the countries are wealthy, that wealth is in the hands of a small minority of wealthy people. Wealthy people in general everywhere are mean people - that's why they remain wealthy in a world full of poverty. Generosity isn't measured by how much we give, it's measured by how much we keep back for ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM

That last post was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Reliev
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:11 PM

Guest at 12:23 I hazard you are American and therefore don't do irony :~)
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:02 PM

I don't know if should be considered irony but the Thai princess (along with 16 escorts) just arrived in Vancouver to do a little business and check on her million dollar home which has been restored after a fire. She has to sign some insurance papers apparently. She will also be staying in Whistler for a few days of skiing.

Seems a bit odd that we are sending our hard earned bucks to Thailand while the princess gads about.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be helping the people because we should. Its just that it seems insensitive and downright ignorant of the Royals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

Anonynous, cowardly, Guest 12:23 - what "hatred of the Arab world" from Giok?

I'd say he was a humanist - he still sent money to the appeal. What did you do?

Since Giok has raised the question, I'm also inclined to wonder what Qaddaffi/Libya has contributed. Not because I'm anti-Arab, but because Qaddaffi has made such a point over the the years of being so vehemently Muslim/I'm-oppressed-by-America style of thing. Power politics? Suuuuuurely not....


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM

So why not take a couple of minutes and a small amount of effort, Raedwolf and Giok, and Google it for yourselves instead of just "wondering out loud"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM

Because I don't give a damn, Carol, that's why. But it annoys me when I see people smearing individuals that don't deserve it.

So what has Libya contributed? You obviously know everything about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM

Here's a piece from the Christian Science Monitor a few days ago - Arab countries crank up tsunami relief

"...on a per capita basis, the contribution of Gulf governments matches or is greater than that of many Western governments. For example, the US's pledge of $350 million in public money represents about $1.20 per person. Meanwhile Kuwait's aid amounts to over $44 per person and Qatar's $25 million pledge is nearly $30 per person."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM

Good. I'd expect that of Kuwait, at least. But Libya (which is not a Gulf state) was used to attack Giok. Are there any figures for Libya? Because Carol doesn't seem to have any, despite her sneering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM

If you don't care, Raedwolf, why did you twice ask the question? I am not overly concerned with what Libya contributes or doesn't contribute, any more than I am concerned with how much you, yourself have or have not contributed. And I don't see the point in asking the question if you don't care.

The United Arab Emirates raised its donation from $2 million to $20 million last week, while Algeria, Bahrain, and Libya have pledged $2 million each.

--GUEST,15 Jan 05 - 04:31 AM

(note - this was posted before Giok's post of 15 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM that the GUEST,15 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM took exception to)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM

Who really gives a shit about who pissed more in the pot?

It doesn't matter who gave what, to whom and when, it does matter that these people are being helped.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM

Before the old year had ended the Arab & Muslium countries of the middle east had already sent an enormous amount aid. Bush himself donated $10,000 of his own money. That pales in comparision to some of the Kings of these nations. Their mobil hospitial had already been set up long before aid started flowing in from other nations.

Please do your research, seek out the news from other nations instead of relying only on a white controled american media, this shit is sickening, do your own investigating & make your own discisions. My dog must be bigger than your dog, grow up.

Don't ask me for sources, do your own homework, it wasn't that hard.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 11:41 PM

As an aside, in some of this nations there are more princes & princesses than we have people in both houses, congress & as govenors & you may even be able to include Mayors. Where are they when a disaster hits home. After 9/11 how many did not attend to family business? Bad gauge of national compassion.

Ok,Ok, I know they just don't look & act like us & that may well be a part of a much bigger problem.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:00 AM

One of the more interesting things about what's going on in other parts of the world is that it has been reported that the earthquake & resulting tsunami are the result of the USA doing nuclear bombings, and evidently people are accepting this as fact instead of fiction. I find it truly difficult to believe that in this modern day of the press being everywhere present at all times, alleged nuclear bombings are unknown to any Americans in the USA. Not to mention the fact that our honorable Men & Women in all branches of the armed forces haven't blown any whistles about this so called bombing event. Very few Americans seem to be aware of these reports around the globe which are trashing the USA. I also wonder why government leaders in that part of the globe are not coming forward to squelch these reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

One of the more interesting things about what's going on in other parts of the world is that it has been reported that the earthquake & resulting tsunami are the result of the USA doing nuclear bombings, and evidently people are accepting this as fact instead of fiction.

I've seen this one brought up a few times in Mudcat threads, but so far, I haven't seen any substantiation of it anywhere. Unless someone can produce some legitimate documentation of this, I'd say it's probably just another rumor started specifically for the purpose of promoting yet more hatred towards Muslims and Arabs. This tsunami certainly has provided the people who want to do that sort of thing with a hell of a lot of opportunities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

Americans were happily ignorant of US nuclear testing for decades. Under baby shrub, the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was thrown out the window.

That said, I haven't heard that particular rumor. Perhaps it is confused and mixed up with the blasting of fault lines by the USGS, to learn more about how earthquakes happen?

That particular aspect of the research (using satellite imagery to record seismic and sound waves) is known as crustal structure research. Only research conducted on land uses explosives to artificially generate seismic waves. Underwater research at sea uses an air gun type thing that releases highly pressurized air from a container.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:29 PM

People like Raedwulf and Giok don't do their homework about these sorts of things, because they fear that learning the truth will challenge their bigoted beliefs. So they "don't care" or claim they were being ironic, or were just kidding, or what have you. That way, they feel perfectly justified in their spewing hate instead of learning the truth, and challenging themselves to grow into compassionate, empathetic human beings. If they opened that can of worms, they'd be forced to admit their prejudices, you see. And that would rock their world too much.

That's how the bigotry game works. You MUST maintain your ignorance of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

Carol: There seems to have been one instance of this, written by Egyptian journalist Mahmoud Bakri and published in the weekly Al-Usbu, which said there had been nuclear activity in the region "particularly after America's recent decision to rely largely on the Australian desert – part of which is inside the Ring of Fire – for its secret nuclear testing". He also wrote that this is a part of the US-Israel-India program to experiment in techniques to destroy the world's population, or something. I don't know and can't find info on the magazine itself, just a few right-leaning papers taking glee in it.

Google nuclear tsunami to see some.

There was the Telegraph's comment that it is widely assumed that most conspiracy theorists are tapping away on computers in log cabins in Nebraska, but that this proves otherwise, and at least "ours" are confined to internet chatrooms.

You can find lots of sick stuff from "Christian" and "Islamic" extremists about the wrath of, well, you know. Lots of fornication and homosexuality was going on in those resorts. But the axis of US-Israel-India theory seems to an isolated incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM

I've seen two or three Israeli news sources, and one Indian news source reporting that one Egyptian weekly news magazine, Al-Osboa, reported that the nuclear testing theory was a possibility. That's all the documentation I can find. I have not seen anything from Al-Osboa, although I've been looking. I will continue to try to find an english version of the original article. The articles in the Israeli and Indian publications are not reproductions of the original article.

So what we seem to have here is a blanket condemnation of the entire Muslim and Arab world because of one alleged news story in one weekly magazine in Egypt. Yup. That makes a lot of sense. No bigotry here. No hatemongering operating this rumor-mill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 01:56 PM

Oh yes... forgot to mention... the alleged article reported on by the Israeli and Indian publications allegedly points the finger specifically at India as being the country doing the testing, not the United States, although it allegedly says that India is being helped by the United States and Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

it has been reported - I don't have any reason to doubt that, but without some kind of source it's pretty meaningless. What does "reporting" mean? You can find conspiracy threads all over the net, many of them emanating from the USA which make all these allegations and more. Which would mean that it would technically be quite correct to say that "it has been reported in the USA that..." Technically correct but highly misleading.

I think we owe it to other people to put in the relatively minimum effort involved in chasing down and indicating sources for the things we say. (As heric did there, and Carol C invariably does.)
.................................

"There was the Telegraph's comment that it is widely assumed that most conspiracy theorists are tapping away on computers in log cabins in Nebraska, but that this proves otherwise..." I can't see it proves anything of the sort. All it proves is that there are at least some conspiracy theorists do not live in Nebraska, or even in the USA. (And here is a "Top Conspiracy Sites" site thrown up by Google and a glance along that indicates that America does appear to be in the lead in producing these, and that this kind of (mostly) rubbish isn't just "confined to internet chat rooms".


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

One of the problems in donating to the tsunami victims is being assured that the money is getting there and not going to ancillary stuff like promotion and paying staff.

I can vouch for the integrity of the American Friends Service Committee and Oxfam. The money will not be spent on anything except the people for whom it's intended.

Diego Garcia military base
apparently know about the earthquake an hour before it happened. They did not report it to the affected countries.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:06 PM

In terms of GDP and population size, the contribution of Australia should not be overlooked - $1billion by Litlle Johnny over 5 years + about another billion or so - counting public donations + several military contributions - field hospitals, bulldozers & engineers, etc, + private individuals helping out over there too.

Recent Political cartoon in Aust

Frame 1
Johnny standing in a chest high pile of dung labelled 'human rights violations'

Frame 2
Tsunami wave labelled '$1.8 billion'

Frame 3
Wave washes over Johnny

Frame 4
Johnny sparkling clean


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:02 PM

Diego Garcia military base apparently know about the earthquake an hour before it happened. They did not report it to the affected countries.

At this stage of scientific advance it would have been impossible for Diego Garcia base or anyone else to "know about the earthquake an hour before it happened". Just can't be done.

What can be known, and what they apparently did know about, would have been the earthquake when it happened, and about the implications so far as the resulting massive tidal wave (tsunami), well before it would have reached Diego Garcia, or other places.

However the information they had about this would have been the same as that reaching all kind of other places all over the planet with immediate access to seismographs. Clearly there was a failure to get this information out in the right way to the people who were in danger, and enormous nunbers of people died as a result of this failure. Just where the blame lies for collective is far from clear, however pointing the finger specifically at the people on Diego Garcia is not really justified.

And my basis for saying this is BBC coverage over the period. (Of course that base shouldn't be on Diego Garcia in the first place, because the place was stolen from the inhabitants by the then British Government, at the insistence of the then US Government, with the inhabitants being deported to other British posessions. But that is another matter.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:43 AM

Friends of mine in several countries (independently from each other) let me know via email & phone about seeing & hearing TV & newspaper reports on the nuclear stuff. Sorry, I didn't check their sources. Because I used to be involved in the anti-nuke movement years ago, I checked with some of my friends who chase nuclear testing, document the radioactive clouds & when they'll be where, etc. It is normal that most folks don't know when & where what countries are testing. My friends knew nothing of any USA warhead testing or bombings, or radioactive clouds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

If what I have seen is any indication, Kaleea, the reports your friends heard quite likely might have been reports about the one (alleged) report in that one weekly magazine in Egypt. That seems to ba what everyone is reporting on. And then the blogs get hold of it (with some changes) and people start reporting on those. And then people report here in fora like this one that they are seeing it all over the world. Which they are, but in a hugely distorted way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM

I believe it was Thomas Friedman who wrote a couple of days ago, that in the Arab world generally, if you can't explain something with a conspiracy theory, you might as well save your breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,Giok in the blizzard.
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:01 PM

Ah dear guest at 01:29 on the 16th, if only things were as black and white as you seem to think they are. Assuming I know nothing, which you do, would deep and prolonged study of the particular section of the Moslem faith which perpetrates these ghastly acts make me learn to love them? Although Moslems are not alone in their apparently cruel actions in the name of their religion, there are many other religions which advocate nasty forms of punishment or retribution, it is neither because they are cruel or senseless that I condemn them. Mostly it is because of the innocent people they kill maim and otherwise harm, that I find them unlovable.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

I find it interesting that people are willing to believe and repeat racist slurs when they are promulgated by western "journalists" such as Thomas Friedman.

There is nothing in Muslim teachings that permits suicide bombings. Suicide attacks are almost invariably committed by people whose countries are under occupation by other countries. Suicide bombings have been committed by people who are not Muslims, but whose countries are being occupied by other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM

I knew that would get you into a tizzy. To steal one of yours, don't put words in my mouth. I have no basis to believe or disbelieve it. Just the facts, Ma'am. He has been reporting on the region for twenty-five or thrty years, so his experiences should be given more weight than my own even by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: Grab
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

NH Dave needs to read the other thread, evidently. I still don't believe Saudi is doing what it should, but it seems some of the other Gulf states are digging deeper, so good for them.

"for many Arabs, giving to worthy causes is a luxury they can ill afford given the poverty and conflicts roiling the region, say observers."

Thanks to the guest who posted that article text, but this isn't really a valid comment for many of the Gulf states. Whilst there certainly are many poor people there, there are also many people wealthy beyond counting. Pretty much like anywhere in the West, really.

Also for the record, donation to charity is built into the Muslim religion, hence individuals seem to be really doing everything they can. The objection is with the governments of the Gulf states.

One of the more interesting things about what's going on in other parts of the world is that it has been reported that the earthquake & resulting tsunami are the result of the USA doing nuclear bombings, and evidently people are accepting this as fact instead of fiction.

I've seen this one brought up a few times in Mudcat threads, but so far, I haven't seen any substantiation of it anywhere. Unless someone can produce some legitimate documentation of this, I'd say it's probably just another rumor started specifically for the purpose of promoting yet more hatred towards Muslims and Arabs. This tsunami certainly has provided the people who want to do that sort of thing with a hell of a lot of opportunities.


Carol, how is a rumour that the *US* is doing nuclear bombings a slur on *Muslims*? I don't follow - to me that looks a total non-sequitur.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,Giok in the blizzard.
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

So CarolC, does their being occupied make it right, Muslim or otherwise , does it pardon the killing and maiming of innocent people?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: nutty
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM

I'm raising my head above the parapet here and I know that I am likely to be shot down but while I applaud the efforts made by both the US and the UK , I would be more impressed by their humanitarian action if they were to put the same kind of effort into helping the thousands of Iraq civilians that they have made homeless during the bombing campaigns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

heric, I wasn't aiming that at you. I was aiming that at Thomas Friedman. I don't know whether or not you believe anything he says. But many people apparently do. He seems to make a pretty good living making racist slurs.

Carol, how is a rumour that the *US* is doing nuclear bombings a slur on *Muslims*? I don't follow - to me that looks a total non-sequitur.

The way you've written it, it is a non-sequitur. The charge that is being promoted in various forms in numerous places is that certain people (variously worded as "Muslims", "Arabs", "the Muslim world", "the Arab world", etc.), are trying to blame the tsunami on the US. This is the exact wording of a post on this subject in another thread; "and some muslim conspiricy theorists even suggesting the USA caused the tsunami".

So CarolC, does their being occupied make it right, Muslim or otherwise , does it pardon the killing and maiming of innocent people?

Obviously not. But to attribute these things to "the Moslem faith" or to anything that is contained in Muslim ideology is incorrect and misleading. And also, to suggest that people do it for their religion is also incorrect and misleading. Suicide attacks are not specific to any particular religion, even though you and many other people believe that it is a particularly Muslim practice, as would appear to be the case going by this statement from you:

would deep and prolonged study of the particular section of the Moslem faith which perpetrates these ghastly acts make me learn to love them


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

... that in the Arab world generally, if you can't explain something with a conspiracy theory, you might as well save your breath."

Now there's another parts of the world where that is sometimes said to be the case. A big country too - now what is it called? A pretty fundamentalist government too, but not Muslim...


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: hesperis
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM

I find it much more ironic that people completely forgot about local aid to send lots of money overseas. NIMBY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM

I buy a newspaper with a political label I don't subscribe to. Do I believe everything I read in it? of course I don't, and no intelligent person would do!
So why is it then that when I write something in a Mudcat thread people read into it things that I never said? It is the old single issue politics thing, ring the bell and the dogs start to drool, even if it isn't mealtime. I try to be objective, and I'm not being anti Moslem, but who else is using this indiscriminate method of killing?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:52 PM

I just saw the Friedman article in question was linked by robomatic in the "Iraq Election" thread today, causing me to re-read. Friedman said "Middle East," not the "Arab world." I was trying to remember which, and mis-remembered. So sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM

...who else is using this indiscriminate method of killing?

So far as "suicide bombing" is concerned, the first people to carry it out in a consistent way were the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka (not a Muslim group - I mention that because at least one person posting on the Mudcat was under the misapprehension that they are).

Of course "indiscriminate methods of killing" have been widely used by people in conflicts all over the world, including governments, such as those of the UK and the USA and Israel (and many others), as well as by illegal organisations such as the IRA and ETA. Generally there has been widespread approval for this kind of things by otherwise humane supporters in the countries and communities from whom the killers come.

I can't see that indiscriminate killings, where the people who do the killing make every effort to reduce the danger that they will themselves be killed, are in some way more morally acceptable than those where the perpetrator knowingly dies in the act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:01 PM

Videotaping beheadings by knife blade is surely a new craze, though? Tough to defend, that, on moral principles. Diffrnt strokes for diffrnt folks, YUCHH. scooby doobie doobie.

Somebody got themselves a full-on archbishop yesterday, no shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM

How human is our humanity? Where were the relief efforts for Rawanda? What makes those of us who do give pick and choose? Is it news coverage or something else? I'd hate to believe it is racial.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:00 AM

It is easier to give to victims of a natural disaster than it is to give to those who are victims of oppression or war. When politics are involved, you are never sure who is actually going to get your dollar or whether the money will be used for food or ammunition.

In the case of the tsunami, seems that lots of people are watching and making sure that the money actually gets to the victims. Of course, there will always be those who take advantage of a sad situation. We can only do our best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM

An English translation of long parts of Mahmoud Bakri's article about nuclear tests triggering the tsunami is available

here (scroll down to read the last report on that page)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,Giok in the blizzard.
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 09:34 AM

Rwanda's lack of aid etc is IMHO due to lack of education. To many people Africa is either one country or two countries, i.e. South Africa and the rest. They hear about diamonds, copper, gold, oil and all sorts of natural wealth and can't understand why people are poor. What so few know is that in the few countries with this wealth, it is quite normal for the money received is largely diverted into private Swiss bank accounts, leaving the poor to starve. Unfortunately the same thing happens to a lot of the aid, and once again the poor get poorer. I don't know what the answer is, other than actually putting charity workers on the ground to see that the aid is properly used, but many countries won't allow this. They say, like in Aceh at the moment, that it isn't safe for the aid workers, but usually it's because they want to control who gets the aid, and who doesn't. It makes me sad, and it's worse when there's nothing I can do.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

One thing is, we've most of us been to the seaside some time and can imagine it happening to us.
.................................

I don't think it's really "lack of education" that gets in the way. You've really got to work at it pretty hard to avoid knowing that stuff, and to dumb yourself down so that you "can't understand why people are poor".

It seems to me it's more to do with a feeling that if we don't succeed in ignoring this stuff it's going to make us feel distinctly uncomfortable in the midst of our comfort.

Basically it's not all that disimilar to the way most Germans managed to avoid being aware of what was being done in their name, and ordinary decent enough people in racist societies manage to persuade themselves it's not really that bad.

Two sayings sum it up: "There's none so blind as they who will not see" and "When ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

So now we have a partial English version of the original article in the Egyptian periodical (as far as we know... MEMRI hardly being a neutral source), but none of whatever documentation the article may have used to back up its assertions (which, I note, as I noted before, are posed as possibilities, and not as facts, in contrast to what the rumors have been saying about it).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM

Rwanda was a man-made tragedy which, as horrible as it was, one might not know where one's money was going, i.e. was there a legitimate outlet of 'humanity' there, at the time. I recall a CBC broadcast indicating that the plotting of the Rwanda genocide occurred in churches. NOT to condemn religion, simply to state that finding a 'good guy' in that maelstrom of murder would be a genuine problem.

If the ranting from the mosques re: Tsunami is happening, it's a sad commentary on what passes for religion in those parts. To say those were drowned were martyrs, to say it was Allah's actions due to alleged immorality and evil investors....sounds like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who said similar things about 9/11.

Using weather as a justifiable 'act of God' on sinners is beneath contempt. It brings to mind the poem about the San Francisco Quake (and fire) of '06:

If God had meant to toast the town
for being over-frisky,
Then why'd he burn the first church down
and leave McCullough's Whiskey?

Voltaire made a lot of anti-zealot hay out of the destruction of Lisbon on All Souls Day in 1755 (Earthquake and tsunamis both).

That being said, before we leap on anyone for their national response, let's give the area some time to recover. They're going to need help for some time to come, and in six months or so it might be more obvious who arrived in time, who stayed the course, who met their obligations and who beat the drums of blame and obfuscation.

The death toll is steadily creeping up, but I haven't heard about any post-calamity epidemics. If people are getting water and being cleaned up, this does the world credit and we should be encouraged by it. Up till now it seems that as many people die after the event as from the event itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:39 PM

If the ranting from the mosques re: Tsunami is happening, it's a sad commentary on what passes for religion in those parts.

The same exact thing was happening in the US after 9/11, coming from fundamentalist Christian pulpits (some of them quite prominent), only in that case, they were saying that tragedy was God's retribution for the sins of the "Liberals". The fact that you seem to know about the Muslim equivalent, but not the Christian equivalent is a sad commentary on what passes for "journalism" in these parts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:09 PM

Carol:
please read my post again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:27 PM

LOL

Oops. I have no excuse.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM

Just heard a Canadian doctor in Sri Lanka say that the clinic where he is working was not there before the donations. They are giving medical attention to many, mostly children. He said that the donations are being put to good use.

Paul Martin (Canadian PM) toured Sri Lanka and said the real tragedy is not what can be seen.

I think he was referring to the grief and trauma of the people. All we can do is give as much as we can and hope for the best.

Regardless of politics, I am very proud of the amount of money the Canadian people have donated from their own pockets. I am also proud of a government that matches every dime of personal donations. Compassionate people with a compassionate government


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: NH Dave
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:03 AM

During the first few days after the disaster, when we still thought only 25,000 may have been killed, there was a lot of commenting on the BBC Worldwide Service about the callous indifference for live exhibited by thescientists who detected and reported the original earthquake, for not getting in touch with the governments of the areas worst hurt by the tsunami, of it this wasn't possible, broadcasting a warning on CNN.

    What many of these people didn't realize was that at the time of the earthquake, there was "no one home" at the various government office that might have disseminated this warning, assuming that they had a vehicle to achieve this, and that most British people have more electronic communications in their own homes than exist in the whole of many of the villages in the most affected areas. To this day, problems with distributing the world's largesse are one of the main bars to actually getting the aid and supplies to the affected people. I recall when I was in Thailand some forty years ago, the Thai Air Base at which I was assigned had an open area in that part of the base where the senior non commissioned officers lived. Each night at dusk the usual pick-up game of soccer or the Thai version of Hackey Sack, using woven wicker balls, would give way to an open air market cum carnival, whose main attraction was the television set that was brought our from its storage bin and mounted on a tall pole so all could watch the few hours that Thai TV broadcast to that region. Various food sellers would set up their portable carts featuring wontons, roasted, dried, squid, and other local food, and the kids would run around and have their usual good time. Somehow I suspect that things have not changed that much in the rest of the country over the ensuing forty years.

    Others expressed their disapproval of some of the royal family seemingly ignoring the suffering of their people while attending to their own problems in the area or elsewheres in the country. It was our experience that by and large the Thai, being Buddhists were a bit more laissez fiare about the plight of people caught up in local accidents and disasters, on the grounds that the affected people must have done something in their lives that upset their amount of "merit" with their supreme being, and since this was their problem, there was little use of others becoming involved in helping them out.

    We saw this attitude when a local bus collided head-on with a timber carrier, consisting of the tractor with a yoke, a 10 - 15' teak log or logs about 50 - 100' long chained to this yoke, and a small wheeled dolly supporting the back end of the log(s) with possibly a license plate and stop lights. The accident spread injured locals about a goodly area, and when we got word, we sent a medical team and a couple trucks to help as we could. I believe we collectged 10 - 15 people so badly injured that they had been left to die, moved them back to our hospital, and actually saved about 70% of these cases. While we earned lots of merit from this act, many admitted that they would not have helped these injured people, even if they had possessed the means and the hospital space. Thus royals seeming to ignore their seriously injured subjects is more along this general "mai pen rai", no big thing, and the theory that Buddha must have willed it, and who are they to thwart Buddha's will. While this does not fall into place with out achieving much merit bu our actions, it does seem to explain theirs and their attitudes to disaster.

    Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM

We have a saying in Scotland that encapsulates that mind set Dave.

Whit's fur ye 'll no go bye ye.

Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM

Id say the real irony of the tsunami relief is that
(according to the former Canadian Ambassodor to the UN) there's a tsunami happening in Africa every few weeks and the world doesnt care..

The second point is, how much of the money pledged by nations is actually delivered. Iran has only received a portion of the amount pledged after its devastating earthquake..

One of George Bushs first priorities was to organize a private fundraising drive while saying that the people of the US are a generous people.. not quite as generous as Australia which pledged something like $800 million so far (double that of the US).


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM

...the theory that Buddha must have willed it, and who are they to thwart Buddha's will.

If they were actually talking in terms of "Buddha's will", as if Buddha was some kind of Abrahamic God, they must have been a very peculiar variety of Buddhist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Irony of Tsunami Relief
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:35 PM

More stereotypes I suppose, McGrath. They (stereotypes) are like a kudzu vine. They grow up all around the real thing (tree, house, whatever), strangling it and eventually obscuring it entirely until ultimately, all you see is a lot of kudzu vine in the shape of a tree or a house or whatever. It's the same with stereotypes. No resemblance to the real thing other than a few superficial attributes.

"Why is it that you don't often hear of charitable work being done by Buddhists?
   
    Perhaps it is because Buddhists don't feel the need to boast about the good they do. Several years ago the Japanese Buddhist leader Nikkho Nirwano received the Templeton Prize for his work in promoting inter-religious harmony. Likewise a Thai Buddhist monk was recently awarded the prestigious Magsaysay Prize for his excellent work among drug addicts. In 1987 another Thai monk, Ven.Kantayapiwat was awarded the Norwegian Children's Peace Prize for his many years work helping homeless children in rural areas. And what about the large scale social work being done among the poor in India by the Western Buddhist Order? They have built schools, child minding-centres, dispensaries and small scale industries for self-sufficiency. Buddhist see help given to others as an expression of their religious practice just as other religions do but they believe that it should be done quietly and without self-promotion. Thus you don't hear so much about their charitable work."

http://www.buddhanet.net/ans10.htm


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