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Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)

just john 17 Jan 05 - 03:51 PM
wysiwyg 17 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM
Bill D 17 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM
Joe Offer 17 Jan 05 - 06:02 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 05 - 06:41 PM
Leadfingers 17 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 17 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM
Leadfingers 17 Jan 05 - 10:19 PM
wysiwyg 17 Jan 05 - 10:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Jan 05 - 02:20 AM
GUEST,pavane 18 Jan 05 - 07:13 AM
just john 18 Jan 05 - 10:50 AM
just john 18 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM
wysiwyg 18 Jan 05 - 12:11 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM
just john 18 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM
wysiwyg 18 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM
Susan of DT 18 Jan 05 - 08:55 PM
JohnInKansas 19 Jan 05 - 05:34 AM
just john 20 Jan 05 - 04:05 PM
Susan of DT 20 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM
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Subject: BS: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: just john
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:51 PM

(Hi, I'm new. But I have searched the thread base for this idea and came up empty -- which may just mean I didn't use the right terms.)

I've been having this fantasy, and I described it in my blog like so:

I've been fantasizing about building a CD with public-domain music, presented in various ways to encourage singing. IE: It'd be able to present (and print) the sheet music, or play the music and present the lyrics for people to sing (and with the display option for automatically scrolling REALLY LARGE TEXT, for people with bad eyesight or Temporary Insobriety Syndrome) and various other options. Sort of a folk song treasury with karaoke options.

So, besides donated new tracks, I'd be searching out public domain songs, similarly to the way folk songbook compilers did in the past. I figure if I make it super-useful, even religious people would use it when singing old hymns and spirituals. And one subversive intent would be that Baptists might look around in the index and find (for instance) old labor organizing songs.

(The rest of the message is here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/justjohn/119338.html )


So anyway, I started looking on the Web, and it looks like this place has already done a lot of the legwork. So I'm wondering if anybody's made a portable version of the Mudcat database, or if not, whether the above project sounds like a worthy thing to try. The fantasy is of a CD that would be freely given away and that people would be encouraged to copy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM

CLICK is the current DT download page. It's updated periodically and news is posted about it here in the Forum.

THIS (Mudcat MIDIs) is also downloadable, but I can't recall the URL to do it. You can ask for it HERE. These MIDIs are one source for DT updates, but not all of them end up there and more are added all the time. Many of them are the melodies for song texts already in the DT.

The Great Tune Hunt Permathread is where people converse about which tunes need to be found or have been found for DT texts. Maybe you could contribute some tunes?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

The DT is 'copylefted'
relevant threads are here:(Dick Greenhaus is the founder and co-keeper of the DT)

an announcement of a DT release

remarks on intellectual property


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:02 PM

We don't have a package download available for the Mudcat MIDIs. We add to the MIDI collection almost daily, so it would be hard to keep up with that. Something makes me think that we did once have a Zip file of all the Ditigal Tradition tunes in MIDI format, but I can't recall where it is/was. We have them in a Zip file in SongWright format, but I think that only Dick Greenhaus, MMario, and maybe two other people on the face of the earth know how to deal with SongWright.
....well, I guess I know how to do it, too, but I'm lazy....

The Digital Tradition Folk Song Database can be loaded onto a CD-ROM, and it works quite well that way, in either the Windows or DOS version. In fact, the Windows version of the Digital Tradition works almost exactly the way justjohn describes. You can display lyrics and sheet music, and you can change the font size, and you can play the tunes.

If that's what you seek, go to our Download Page and download the database to a separate folder/directory on your hard drive. Then unZip the file, and copy the contents onto a CD-ROM (the database won't run unless it has been unZipped).


-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:41 PM

I have just been reading a computer mag article on using FreeDOS (which will run on very low state PCs) to build self booting CDROMs which will run various DOS apps.

The last time I tried to get the download (several attempts), it wouldn't run properly on my PC.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

The first thing that springs to mind is Disc space !! How many megabytes would it take to do a CD with lyrics AND tunes of the Digitrad ?? Let alone the OTHER options Just John has in mind !!
Lovely idea , BUT !!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM

Well, actually the midi files (and the plain ASCII text word files) are not individually very big - the main problem would be '*slack space' in the large number of individual files - which could be countered by putting all the data (words and midis) in a single database file with a front end app.

*slack space - file space is allocated in discrete chunks - left over bytes at the end of each chunk can add up to considerable wastage.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM

The Mudcat database is VERY portable. Doesn't really take up too much disc space at all.

The way things are, they COULD perhaps make it even easier to duplicate since the Mudcat is already in A database for the online version, you could almost make it platform independent if the same database system is usable on Linux and Macs which might be possible.

Again that wouldn't take up too much space even then. Considering a CD-R is about 700M, you have tons of room. And the smallest Hard Drive is probably in the order of 20Gs. Very doable.

Question is how easy would it be to change over from the current system to the online one for downloading?

Not that I am suggesting that Pene or Joe or Dick, et al DO this. Just musing and perambulating through my tiny mind.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM

The entire Digitrad (in three versions, no less--DOS, Mac and Windows) not only fits on one CD-ROM, but you can get it for a mere $5 (including postage) from
dick greenhaus
28 Powell Street
Greenwich, CT 06831


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:19 PM

And Thank you for that Brief Word from our Sponsor . And Now on with the show !!


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:34 PM

We now have the same info posted many, many tiomes. I think the question is answered, folks. Like, in the first reply I posted links to it all....

~S~


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:20 AM

Yes, well done WYSIWYG - but you DO know how threads drift.. :-)

The DT as supplied by Dick in message 17 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM above is just the source to be downloaded onto a PC (or a CD) - what it seems that some people might want to consider is a standalone self booting CD with the DT on it - very do-able nowadays - and OS independent - although it would not run on Macs, only Intel processor boxes - that would have to be a seperate application CD.

The 2002 DT I downloaded was about 35 Mb expanded - about 4 Mb for the midis - but with each midid very small - on my PC they take up over 16 Mb of space (what with the slack space factor!)


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:13 AM

Do I take it from the above that there is a need for a SongWright to abc converter?

If such a thing does not exist, I am sure I could supply it. I did do a limited SongWright export from HARMONY.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: just john
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:50 AM

Well, okay, this is interesting. I'll have to grab a copy of the database and probe it. (For an idle fantasy, this is sounding more and more doable!)

Regarding the format of the CD, I was thinking of a linux boot disk, along the lines of Knoppix ( http://knopper.net/knoppix-info/index-en.html ) and dyne:bolic ( http://dynebolic.org/ ). The actual package I had been thinking about was Morphix, but their site seems to be down.

Anyway, these are LiveCDs that most relatively recent Intel-style machines can boot from. There are PPC (ie: Mac) boot disks of similar sorts, including Knoppix offshoots. (I started investigating linux LiveCDs when I figured I might not be able to afford another Mac (been an Apple user since '85.)) When you boot a LiveCD, you get a linux desktop, and with Knoppix, you can't even alter the PC's contents unless you really try to.

As for the "It's updated constantly" point raised above, well, part of a project editor/admin's function is to set deadlines and come up with version numbers (and names! For instance, Ubuntu's current release name is "hoary" and dyne:bolic's is "LUMUMBA".)

So, thanks. I'll be looking at that database.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: just john
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

Later ... I've looked at the Windows version. Only 31M, about a third the size I'd been expecting.

Heck, a linux version of this thing would be closer to what I had in mind than anything I'd be likely to accomplish. Is Mark F. Heiman still in the house? (He's credited for the Mac version.)

(Or, for the lazy, I hear there's a way to package a Windows app into something that runs on linux.)

But yeah, a program to convert SoundWright (they don't seem to have a website) to some less proprietary format would come in VERY handy! Perhaps karaoke MIDI?


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM

Noteworthy Composer and ABCMus convert SongWright files to other formats. I use SongWright because a) It's easy; b) it synchronizes words and music; c) it's very compact (most songs take up less than 1 kb) and d) I have thousands of songs in this format and I don't feel like converting them to another format with no real advantages.

The Windows and Mac versions both present the tunes as written scores and are playable as MIDIs (unfortunately, without simultaneous display of the words.)

The disk can be used as a standalone (without downloading it), but it's much slower. Either the DOS or the Windows version takes about 20 mB (the DOS version could be much smaller, but I've unzipped the tune files to save processing time.) Either fits on just about any computer I've encountered--I keep a copy of the Windows version on an antique Toshiba Libretto for emo purposes.

If anyone wants to experiment with improving the programming, feel free--What I'd like to see is the search capabilities of the DOS version (which includes wild cards at easch end of a word or phrase, full Boolean capabilities and proximity searches) along with a good score display (as in the Windows and Mac versions) and a good player--which we frankly don't have at this time. A good player would keep accurate time, and display the words as it plays--preferably by highliting the played notes on a score witrh the words beneath it.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:11 PM

just john, where in the country are you located? Sounds like y'all need to chat in person. My place is available for that if I'm not too far-- I'm in N Central PA. Dick and Susan, and MMario, have been here before.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM

While I wouldn't want to put a damper on things, I'd offer a word of caution to anyone jumping into something of this sort.

I got a copy of a really enormous 3-ring binder set of tunes that quite a few people in the "Irish" group in my neighborhood had been carrying around for several years. When I found that many of the tunes were impossible to read, some were unplayable as written, and there were a whole lot of duplicates etc. ad infinitum... I asked if anyone was organizing things, and got no response.

In the absence of anyone willing to take the blame for what existed, I reset all the tunes in reasonably legible form and made "bare-bones" midis of each tune. The problem is that when completed, it cost me about $21 to print a copy and nobody wanted it that bad. I did find a place that would print at about $18/copy, but only if I ordered 30 copies at a time. After about 4 years work, I've distributed about 50 copies and I'm only about $3 in the hole - if you ignore the 2,000 hours it took to re-score the tunes and set it up, and the years of lugging them around to make them available to those who might want one. There will be NO MORE printed copies.

For my own use, I translated my original .ps scores to .jpg so I could clip them into Word and be able to print individual pages. I set it up to print one tune per 5"x8" index card, but a full set would take about $45 worth of blank cards, and about 1/3 cartridge of toner. It's fairly simple to resize a page if you wanted to print a page to a different format, although there's no easy way to do them all at once. Some of them are pretty "compressed" to fit them on 5x8, so legibility varies.

After 4 years, I've been about burnt out on it. Maybe if I liked Irish ...............

John


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: just john
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

How can one not like Irish?

(Okay, I'll admit I love Elvis Costello's comment about RiverDance: "Just what the world needs now, a triumph of the Celtic will.")

As I've said right from the start, this is just a fantasy for me, and discovering the DT database (and others like it) has surprised me with how near an existing application for Windows (and maybe Mac -- haven't tried it yet) has come to it. It looks like all one needs is a SongWright -> ABC conversion and suddenly a LOT of public domain software will be able to handle it. (Handle an ABC version of each song in the database, that is.)

As far as printing, etc.? Nah. I just wanna make .osi files and find a place to store them on the WWW. It'd be up to everybody else to download, burn and distribute.

WYSIWYG: I'm in Poughkeepsie, New York. I've been working up to a generic "wanna jam?" inquiry for here, but first I have to read all the relevant threads to find out what people here consider "folk music" and, more to the point, what instruments they consider as proper to play it on. THEN I might have the nerve to ask if anybody's local enough and patient enough to consider having me play electronic bongos with them. (Actually, it's a sophisticated device with amazing options, but I tend to play it as "electronic bongos.")


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM

John, you're about 5 hours from me like everyone else on this side of the country seems to be-- that's one reason why sometimes I'm lucky to get people to meet here. I play my autoharp in a somewhat strange fashion as well, so if and when you land here for a Mudcat Gathering, you MUST bring the EBs and be prepared to share!

Seriously, Dick and Susan come by here from time to time. Maybe a meet-up could be arranged. We have sleeping space for anyone who would want to come pursue the topic in realtime.

:~)

~Susan

PS, welcome to Mudcat! :~)


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:55 PM

John - there are mudcatters and other music available not too far from you. Sandy Paton is not far in Sharon CT. Dick is in Greenwich CT - we will be rebuilding his house and will then have a jam-able house. There are some circles we go to that are between Poughkeepsie and Greenwich, like North Salem NY and Pleasantville.


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:34 AM

Susan -

"Not too far" is sort of relative. My CD-Map shows Wichita KS to Greewich CT at about 1,392 miles (shortest route). Now the "scenic" route might be a little more...

We do look for chances to meet 'catters, but so far our best meeting place has been when we find some at the WVA fest.

John


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: just john
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:05 PM

Susan of DT -- A jam-able house ... Sounds tempting. To be honest, I haven't sung, er, "official" folk music (I don't think 70s rock counts) in decades, but I think I can do appropriate percussion that people would like. (My guitar skills, on the other hand, are microscopic.)


dick greenhaus -- Just looked at the ABCmus site and downloaded the demo. It says registered versions can "mass import files" ... It's not quite free, but not very expensive, either. (I remember shelling out a few hundred dollars for MOTU's Professional Composer and not getting any use out of it at all!)


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Subject: RE: Portable Mudcat? (Database on a CD-r)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

John in Kansas - I was answering JustJohn who is in Poughkeepsie, an hour of so from dick's. Too many John's. Sorry.

Just John. If you want more info on local gatherings contact dick or me for details. dick@digitrad.org or susan@digitrad.org or PM. Dick has more details on the instrumental ones.


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