BS: Cross cultural marriages

Subject: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST,A regular member
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:09 PM

I am having a hard time of it at present and it is not sypmpathy I need but some good advice from any of you who are part of a cross cultural marriage.

I thought I understood my partners culture but it appears I do not. Any advice from any catters who have a marriage of two cultures/countries on how you manage would be gratefully received.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:17 PM

Particular stresses will bring a more rigid adherance to one's own inherited patterns from family or culture of origin. Something fresh causing stress? It may be less that you failed to understand than that you have mis-estimated how your partner's needs differ from time to time-- that your partner's cross-cultural adjustment is at question rather than our own?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:52 PM

I suppose I'm not the best to give advice, since the cross-cultural spouse and I are now divorced, but it wasn't the cultural stuff that caused the divorce. We're still friends.

Focus on the common denominators. What brought you together in the first place? Then figure out what is really interesting to each of you about the other's culture. Learn those recipes or those traditions and share them together. The puzzling, confusing, or even hurtful stuff needs to be discussed, and you need to decide together if you're going to set that stuff aside, or are going to do some things solo, because they're important to one or the other of you alone.

When they got together his family all spoke Spanish, and occasionally someone would pause and tell me what they were talking about. Usually the brother, not the husband. I enjoyed each of them individually, when they spoke English, but the group meals were quite lonely for me. I didn't learn to speak Spanish because he speaks perfectly good English, though I now recognize quite a few words and know their meanings.

We had a couple of fantastic kids, so whatever the outcome of our relationship, it was worth going into it just for these two children.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:52 PM

Sometimes the pressures from families add to burdens which then get magnified. Maybe some of that is at play?

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:05 PM

I just really don't know, since I turned one down because of it. He was black/Puerto Rican from Long Island New York and wanted to live there. I would not live east of the Mississippi River. Good luck Love.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:11 PM

It would help to know the two cultures. For instance, marrying a Brit if American might be difficult even though the two are close.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM

I'm not married, but my last long term girlfriend was asian,
I thgink good avice would be to find out about each others cultures, ie read about it, and get involved, ie go to any cultural groups in your area, many societies have their own ways that are often difficult for outsiders to understand.
You say "i thought i understood their culture, but now i think i don't"
waht exactly is it that you don't understand about her culture, ?
post it here, and there might be members of the same culture that can help you understand.


If it's a religous thing, you could have a look at www.religoustolerance.org
it gives a basic outline and introduction to most religions.

cross cultural relationships can work, but take a bit more effort and understanding, [compromise etc] from both sides, you will probably find you get more hassle etc from freinds and family, but if your happy together, dont let anyone bother you.

good luck etc.

john

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:19 PM

Its not hard to fall in love with someone from another culture and marriage is not any harder than any other marriage. When children enter the marriage is when the cultural differences really become evident. There are cultural values that are passed to the children and it is difficult to determine which cultural values to pass down.

I am the product of a cross cultural marriage and it was pretty confusing for me sometimes. As I grew older, I was able to pick and choose what I liked from each culture but I think my parents could have been a little more clear about their own beliefs. As it was, I always sensed a little friction between the two families. The result was that I felt that I never quite measured up to the expectations of either culture.

I'm not sure of the right answer for you except to say that you and your spouse should have your values and beliefs clear enough that you don't confuse your children. Make sure that they are valued for who they are. Make sure that you and your partner share a common set of values and beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:25 PM

In our house, cultural issues require a conversation post pissed off mode when we can calmly talk to one another and really UNDERSTAND what happened and why it annoyed the other. If you had a heads up on KNOWING that there would be cultural differences, count yourself lucky. We knew each other a very short time before we married and we ran into several walls before figuring out just what the problem was (Okay, I know that sounds silly but my husband is Native American and I am of a German/American background...I thought he was like me in that traditions were minimal and Native American was his families background...I really didn't know how much of behaviors and cultures were passed on). Compromise and the ability to try to understand where the other person is coming from are key.

Good luck to you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:25 PM

Yo, regular member,

Here's my advice. Take your S.O. 'er souse fir a long ride in the country and to some far way little restarant that you all used to go to do yer "sparkin'" and then when you get him or her relaxed, fed and feelin' good look into yer friends eyes and simply say, "Hey, this is about me and you, Nuthin' else. And I love you..."

If this don't get stuff back on track, then I'll gladly retract my advice and refund yer money....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: hilda fish
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:03 AM

Oh dear. My current relationship (a very important one) is cross-cultural and have always been in cross-cultural. And every time I come crashing in on something we assumed that we understood, but were total strangers to. I am indigenous and have been married to a non-indigenous man and current is non-indigenous. Examples of total meltdown are frequent such as asking questions that in my culture you just don't ask, assuming knowledge that you don't own, not showing respect to the right people, encouraging children to mix with wrong moiety, social assumptions, hierarchy of myself or partner in social groups at particular times, age hierarchy (e.g. in my culture you ALWAYS serve Elders first whereas in the European culture it seems that you serve children first which is SO disrespectful to Elders in mine etc......) and hierarchy i.e. in European culture 'wife' is on top while 'partner' is down a bit and depending on if it is a work situation, social, political or what, hierarchy inside relationship changes whereas in Indigenous family role is most important all the time. Åssertion of individuality in European culture is primary socially whereas community and the obligations engendered is primary in Indigenous culture. Obligation to totality of extended family is primary in Indigenous culture whereas only obligation to immediate family is primary to non Indigenous. How one talks, or looks, or makes a stand for or against is also defined differently in different cultures. Assumptions and expectations are always difficult, obligations and duties also. We have a saying 'Tyerabarrbowaryaou' "I shall never become a white man". So you will never become a whatever other culture exists inside your marriage, only a part. All you can do is know yourself, and accept that you will never be completely anything else. A culture is a lifetime of so many complexities, that with the best will in the world, you can never be inside it if not born there. Look at what you have, think about any conflicts, always try and discuss, but my best advice is to accept that there are some things that neither you nor your husband will ever understand about each others cultural. It is a richness and a myster, I think, and you have a choice about whether it can become a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:16 AM

We have three cross cultural marriages in our family. My oldest daughter is married to a man of Egyptian/Greek background, my youngest daughter is married to a Dutch/Austrian man, and one of my siblings is married to a person from a very different culture.

My oldest daughter and her husband lived together for five years before marrying and although this was not the done thing in his family, his parents were very supportive of them both. She got baptised in the Greek Orthodox church and they had a traditional wedding. her husband is a sweetheart and i treat him like a son, he treats me like a mother. As she took on some of his culture, he has taken on some of hers and shares the cooking, does his own ironing etc. We are all good friends, his parents have reached out to me and my daughter's father and treated us like family.

The youngest daughter's Austrian husband's parents have also accepted her into their family, and she has a close and affectionate relationship with them. They

I strongly believe for any relationship to be truly satisfying, people need intellectual equality, and the ability to negotiate with courtesy.

Where these ingredients are absent, issues of control, power struggles or lack of democracy in the relationship will emerge, and anything can become a focus for dissent whether its a cultural difference or who's doing more of the housework.

Where one partner develops disrespect for another, this can manifest in many ways. If the cultures are different they can become the "excuse" - sometimes people succumb to family pressure to marginalise the new spouse as an "outsider".

One great thing about cross cultural partnerships is that the children often are very clever - they reap the best genes from both cultures, for physical and mental potential.

good luck

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM

Upon reading Freda's post I realized I left some out, and it would have been with the same emphasis that she uses. My mother's sister (Danish & Norwegian-American) married a Turkish man. They have three children, and one of them married a Japanese woman. My brother married a woman who is Philippino, and then there was my Taino/Puerto Rican spouse. The extended families have all gotten along, and we've found large family gatherings (as rare as they are) quite entertaining and a bit of the United Nations. Both my sister and my brother have visited with my uncle's extended family in Turkey on recent trips--they know they can go visit Mustafa's family because they've met them at events at home and the invitation has been proffered.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:40 AM

No one can help if we don't know which cultures you are talking about. The well intended posts here are all over the map, literally.

Are we talking race differences? Religious differences? Ethnic differences? Class differences?

All of them matter, if they are the cultural differences you are dealing with. But without knowing which cultural differences you are talking about, it is impossible to profer sound advice or attempt to pass on wisdom gained.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

Culture is a system of values and beliefs handed down from one generation to the next through a common language. Most cultures contain a variety of religions and social classes. As far as race goes - its a concept that has been discredited and hardly worth discussing.

I think, Guest, your "sound advice" and "wisdom" is not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Megan L
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM

Communication understanding communication and love oh and did i mention communication :)

all marriages can be hard work but under no circumstances whatever mix Portuguese and Polish the resultant family gatherings make Kracatoa seam like a plook(zit)

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM

Race is hardly worth discussing? Oh really. Tell that to the millions of people in the US alone who continue to be oppressed and discriminated against because of racism...

White people never want to take about racism. So if the "cultural difference" in this relationship is actually rooted in racial differences, but the original poster doesn't feel comfortable saying that it is race because of responses like dianavan's, what sort of aid and comfort will this poster get here?

Mixed race relationships have genuine conflicts rooted in racist beliefs. In the US, that means EVERYBODY because we have been raised (ie socially conditioned) to assimilate and fit into an inherently racist dominant society. The main tactic used to force assimilation into the dominant society, is to pretend to ourselves and with one another, that these differences rooted in institutionalized racism, don't exist.

And Homey don't play dat tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM

SRS, Freda, Bobert and Dianavan have just about covered it. My own experiences (Greek married to an English lass) have been so positive, and I am still so head over heels over my little "foreigner" 32 years on, that I have precious little to add. Watching my own son's marriage (Greek/English married to Irish Australian/Russian) and the ease with which cultural issues are swept aside in their case, I believe we got it right. And I'm looking forward to watching multicultural Timmy grow up.

The one thing I have to offer in addition to the good advice above is: use humour; see the funny side of cross-cultural friction and defuse it with a good joke - or better, with a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM

Ethnic differences, with few exceptions, don't have the difficulty of mixed race relationships, though. And that isn't being taken into account here.

In my own extended family and friends network, we have mixed race relationships, mixed religion relationships, and mixed ethnicity relationships. People here seem to only talking about mixed ethnicity relationships. No one is talking about mixed religion or mixed race relationships. In my experience, the easiest cultural differences to resolve in relationships are the ethnic differences, especially among families from two highly assimilated (to the dominant culture) ethnic groups.

The toughest cultural differences to bridge, in my experience, are class and race, with religion a very close second. Ethnic differences among same race, class, and religious groups are relatively minor, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:11 PM

Guest - Of course there is discrimination based on the colour of your skin but to describe people as coming from different races is just plain archaic. There is only one race. The human race. Different races do not exist. Its an old, worn-out theory that is continually perpetuated by people who actually believe there are different races. Thats just not true.

The original question was about cross-cultural marriages. I think you are using ethnicity and culture interchangeably which is pretty close. Nobody asked about class and race. Reply to the question. If you want to start your own thread about so-called, inter-racial marriages, go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:20 PM

Oh I see, dianavan declares that race doesn't exist, so suddenly it doesn't exist?

Apparently dianavan is high on crack.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

Guest, to come in here and make pronouncements about what is and isn't important only shows us your pig-headed approach to this discussion--if your issues aren't discussed, then the discussion isn't valid? Only skin color counts, not ethnic differences alone? This said by a nameless individual who gives no clue as to where they're coming from or what they've invested in personal research in this matter. In my own extended family and friends network, we have mixed race relationships, mixed religion relationships, and mixed ethnicity relationships. Care to enlarge on this in a meaningful way, and include a nation and perhaps even a name or moniker?

Race is being taken into account here. You're just not reading very closely. Norwegian. Irish. Taino (Indian). Spanish. Philippino (Chinese roots). Japanese. Turkish. We've managed to span the globe.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:52 PM

silly river beat again and playing the guest card. Some things change and somethings stay the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:56 PM

Look, others have taken exception to me making these distinctions. That's just fine. But I have yet to see anything from the original poster to this thread to explain what differences they were referring to when they said they were in a cross-cultural marriage.

I NEVER said only skin color counts. NEVER. I said IN MY EXPERIENCE racial differences and class differences were much more difficult to overcome than ethnic differences, especially if both families' ethnic backgrounds were highly assimilated to the dominant culture they reside in, and if they were from the same economic class and religious background.

That is NOT saying only skin color counts. One of you who decided to take exception with my interpretation of cultural differences threw that one into the mix.

But unless and until the original poster comes in and gives us all some clarification, I'm outta this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:56 PM

That's right guest, see if you can get a few licks in from your place of hiding. You're so open and wise and offer such thoughtful contributions to discussions here--NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:58 PM

Two guests, or Jekyll and Hyde tonight?

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:07 PM

Stuff a sock in it SRS. You aren't exactly a fount of enlightenment. You being opinionated is no better or worse than me being opinionated, except in your own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: hilda fish
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:34 AM

Can I stick my little head in again - race (meaning black or white) DOES matter. I can only speak from my perspective as an Indigenous person in my own country where despite our many hues of skin we are regarded as BLACK and we are different. By saying that we are all part of the human race, although in a big picture that is perfectly true, it makes my race, my colour, invisible, and that has been the problem, historically, in my own country anyway. My people say AUSTRALIA HAS A BLACK HISTORY which is a bit double-edged, but without buying into much of the other discussion, which obviously has its basis in people's very important considerations, I'm with GUEST when he/she says that race is one of the most difficult (I say the most difficult). Given that you do describe the marriage as cross-cultural rather than cross racial. but I am confused - is GUEST here the same GUEST (a regular member) who started this and who indicated needed help and support and advice? or different?

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:55 AM

'Muddying' the water even more, I would remind those sincerely involved in this conversation that since 'African American' is largely a catch-all phrase, there are different cultures within the "Black race".

For example,I know African Americans couples in which one half of the couple is from continental Africa, and one is from the USA. I also know African Americans who have one African American birth parent {meaning a Black American born in the USA} and one birth parent who is non-African American [Anglo born in this country; German born in Germany; Native American; Filipino; Japanese]. I also know African Americans who have one or both birth parents who are of Cuban and other Caribbean descents. There are also African Americans who have two birth parents from South America, Latin America, and elsewhere.

And as hilda fish indicated, given this generic definition of who is or is not 'Black' in the USA, indigenous people from Australia would also be considered Black...

Not to mention that-irregardless of the use of such referents as 'biracial' and 'multi-racial'- in the USA the offspring of the cultural unions that I mentioned [and others] would be considered African American. Also counted in this mix are thousands of people of some 'African descent' who are adopted cross-racially and, sometimes, raised without any real, direct knowledge of 'African American' culture[s].

To add to the already complex mix,there are African Americans who are raised in non-traditional {for most African Americans} religions such as Judism, Islam {including Sunni Muslim;"Black Muslim' and "Moorish American"} and various traditional African religions such as orisha vodu...When an African American who was not raised in any of those faiths marries a person who is, this would also constitute a cross-cultural marriage.

I have not had any personal experience in cross racial/cross-cultural marriages other than as a family member or friend of those who directly entered into or were raised in those unions. But based on my observations, it seems to me that the persons involved should both strive to learn and understand as much as they possible can about the cultural {history, values, traditions}. And for that relationship to succeed, each person must to try to rid themselves of any traces of the racism that they probably have given the nature of this world..

As others have mentioned communication and humor can help any couple weather the storms which are bound to occur in any close relationship. Of course, it helps to have a solid, strong love, respect for the other's personhood and 'space', as well as some shared interests.

I would also add that 'geographical location' is an important factor, especially if these two people are raising or planning to raise children. Having worked for many years with families who adopted international and tranracially {from the USA}, being 'the only' 'different' child or only one of very few children who are racially different can be very difficult for a child-even when the community acts {or actually accepts that child] in a color-blind way...Why? because it doesn't prepare the person for life in this racist world.

That being said, if phsial and/or emotional abuse is not a factor of their relationship, sometimes couples have to ride out the storm, with the knowledge that there are up & down cycles in any relationship. Even if a couple have 'true love' that is beyond cultural barriers, they are not immune to natural conditions that occur in/with any relationship.

Paraphrasing a comment made recently, "Relationships are hard work".
Hope this helps!

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:22 AM

"Oh I see, dianavan declares that race doesn't exist, so suddenly it doesn't exist?

Apparently dianavan is high on crack"

this is a great example of why you are wasting your time talking about this here. There are really not many success stories being given here and don't figure to be.

Please get some professional diagnosis and help.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:52 AM

Guest, you're a pissant coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM

Unless you marry your cousin or your sibling, every single marriage is cross-cultural. Even White Anglo Saxon Protestants have different cultures. My cultural background is totally different to my husband Manitas'.

However, I can sympathise with Stilly. A long time ago, I was hopelessly in love with a Maltese Welshman. His mother was as Welsh as Cader Idris and his father was a Maltese man who had been posted there in the war and never left. I nearly married him, but decided that I couldn't go through with it, because I was left behind in all conversations, which were a mix of Welsh, Maltese and English. His mother, a Welsh speaker, spoke Welsh and English, with a few phrases of Maltese. His father spoke only 3 sentences in English, all to do with money or snooker, and Welsh. He spoke all 3 fluently, but could not provide a simultaneous translation. I resented the fact that I did not know what his mother was saying to him about me. The fact that they were Catholic and I'm not, never even raised its head!

With any relationship, there has to be compromise. A relationship where one partner feels excluded, alienated, or that they have given up more than the other is basically a divorce waiting to happen. Resentment can take years but it will make its way out eventually. I was too young then to know how to work through the resentment, but not so green that I thought it would work!

Think about what compromises you have both made or have to make... if they are vastly different, then the balance needs to be restored... and communicate!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

For the record, I only posted as a Guest earlier today because for some reason I had to use the alternative URL to get through to this site this morning.

I'm assuming that all here know that I'm not THAT Guest, and therefore Stilly River Sage's comment was not directed toward me.

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM

Martin Gibson said:

"..you are wasting your time talking about this here. There are really not many success stories being given here and don't figure to be."


Well, most of the interracial marriages that I referred to in my post are long lasting and the people seem reasonably happy.

Speak for yourself, Martin. I don't think these conversations are a waste of time.

People can learn about other cultures through threads like this, and I certainly believe that is worthwhile. Through such threads, people involved in interracial/cross-cultural relationships can also discover that they aren't the 'only ones' at Mudcat who are involved in such relationships...


And, at the very least, people in romantic relationships-interracial,
cross-cultural; or othewise, can learn what others think help make a relationship successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM

Dianavan isn't "high" on crack or anything else. Years ago at least half a dozen "races" were recognized by anthropologists. Now most people distinguish three. Any one of the three "races" contains many individuals that could not be picked out of a group of one of the other "races". Certainly there are gene pools of distinct characteristics. Certainly these have developed in different regions, with different cultures. Color and culture can be so deeply linked that to pretend the color difference doesn't exist can amount to negation of someone's cultural heritage. But color, in and of itself, matters only so far as prejudice makes it matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

does this count;

I'm English and used to shag a Welsh bird.

But, then I suppose most of us have

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:44 PM

I'm from London and Tree is from Colorado and she's quite a few years younger than me. So we've got a reserved Stiff upper lip Limey and an open friendly Cowgirl.

It's most noticable in a bar, where there's me sitting there nursing a beer, and Tree is off talking to everyone.

You both need to retain a sense of humor and be able to laugh at yourself and your own culture, then whatever happens it will be great fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:50 PM

Well Azizi, most I have seen and know about fail.

It seems like most posting here have had failure.

I still think it's a waste. Every situation is different and there doesn't appear to be any experts here saying what is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Teresa
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:55 PM

I've had both good and bad experiences with widely-varying cultural factors in relationships. I think the culture can be a factor, but no more or less than all the other factors that make up a relationship. Communication is really the key, and understanding what is really happening in the individual case. sometimes it's easier to blame the "culture" than it is to look at the more personal factors involved.

teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:10 PM

For those enlightened enough to see it that way, there is indeed only one race, the human race. For many other folks, unfortunately, there are racial divisions between people, and we all have to live in a world that has not yet become fully enlightened in this sense.

Sadly, for many members of the dominant culture here in the US (and elsewhere in the "developed" world as well), there are only *two* races: Them and Us. And, strangely enough, if you have one great-great-grandparent who was one of Them, you're also a Them -- despite your fifiteen other great-great-grandparents who were Usses ~ unless, of course, you look so much like one of Us that no one would guess your origins.

If I may drift a bit, I have often been amused and confused when the need for political correctness causes people to use the term "African-American" rather than "Black" when referring to people of color who are *not American.* Hasn't happened yet in this discussion, but we've come pretty close, enough so that I am reminded of times in the past when this has occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:11 PM

Martin, most marriages fail.

Why would you expect these sub-set of marriages to be different in failure rates?

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:45 PM

Thread Drift-but in my opinion, this is important as a background info:

Happy post Mardi-Gras to you, PoppaGator!

You said:
".. I have often been amused and confused when the need for political correctness causes people to use the term "African-American" rather than "Black" when referring to people of color who are *not American. "

If I understand you correctly-and I'm not sure I do-I agree with you that "African American" should not used as a generic term for everyone of African descent who is born or lives outside of the United States.

As an African American, I can share some currently acceptable referents:

As PoppaGator mentions, in the USA the term 'Black' is used informally to refer to ALL persons who have any Black ancestry no matter if most of their ancestry is non-Black...

The formally accepted term for Black Americans is 'African American' [and not 'Afro-American']

The term "coloured" used in South Africa never had the same meaning in the United States as it has in South Africa. "Colored people" was a group referents that was used in the USA by Black Americans and others around the same time as Negro [pre 1960s]. "Colored people and Negro meant anyone of any African descent. However,it's not appropriate to use either of those terms now.

Although there is a movement to differentiate first generational "mixed racial" people ['bi-racial; 'multi-racial'] people of some African descent/non-African descent from Black Americans that have two Black birth parents, since so many Black Americans are mixed racial, I don't see these referents replacing the [admittedly racist] generic definition for Black Unitedstaters.

Also:

The referent for all Black people wherever who have at least one African ancestor: "people of African descent."

The referent for all people [Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, indigenous Australians, Polynesians, Micronesians, etc] who are non-Anglo: "people of color"

This is the way I use the admittedly complicated racial reference practices for African Americans & others who are non-Anglo.

Does anyone have any additions and corrections to this info??

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:39 PM

Azizi, I think you *do* understand what I was driving at. For example, I've heard people of (distant) African descent and (more recent) Jamaican descent who live in the UK described as "African-American." How crazy is that? People are so scared of causing offense that logic is forgotten and clear communication takes a back seat to political correctness.

I definitely agree with you that "mixed-race" is a confusing and inaccurate category at this late date. There are very few "black" Americans who do *not* have some "white" ancestry, for a number of different reasons, and this is an important factor in US social history. While it is obviously important and positive for African-Americans to take pride in their African heritage, I believe that it is unfortunate and potentially harmful for the same people to deny and ignore the European component of what they are.

Anything that helps us all to understand that we are brothers and sisters, and that there is but one race, the human race, should be emphasized. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case.

One thing I do *not* understand is how and why the term "Afro-American" fell into disfavor so suddenly, in favor of the only-slightly-different "African-American." I remember when black people were glad to buy and read, for example, the Baltimore Afro-American newspaper, and no one was offended. Also, the terms "Afro-Cuban" and "Afro-Caribbean" seem to be inoffensive, while "Afro-American" recently became so "incorrect."

Hey, I'm glad to comply, and I certainly mean no offence. I just think some developments are so silly that *someone* needs to comment.

By the way, like many (if not most) Americans of European/Caucasian descent, I have *no* known Anglo-Saxon forebearers; they're all Irish and Alsatian. In many cases, during many historical eras, my people were enemies and/or victims of the English. But it would be poor form if I were to complain about being classified as "Anglo," now, wouldn't it? And it would be flat-out ignorant if I were to hold a grudge of any kind, at this late date, against Americans of English descent or, for that matter, against English people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST,Guest; but regular member
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:52 PM

I have been away for a few days of work and could not log on easily from my hotel.

Thanks for all your posts. Race is not the issue. I speak my partners language reasonably fluently and have lived here as well as worked here for many years.

There were areas where I knew that we had to discuss carefully or agree to disagree on. I thought we had those areas reasonably identified, maybe my assumption is wrong.

It is an caucasian-asian marriage to answer one threads query.

I was married once befoe and have a son by that marriage. He does not live with us. I have regular e-mail contact and phone contact with him but my visits amount to once a year because of distance.

My wife has met him and another added problem is that they do not get on at all. I have to be carefull how I talk about him or else she gets very jealous of even that attention.

All your posts have helped me, even if there is some conflicting ideas as they help me think outside the box a bit.

So to all of you my heartfelt thanks for taking time to write your posts. The next few weeks will be crunch time and I will look at all your suggestions.

I do not want to identify myself because in the future I will be meeting many of you again and if my wife and I stay together I do not want anyone to make pre-judgements about her (or me for that matter).

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 06:28 PM

"But it would be poor form if I were to complain about being classified as "Anglo," now, wouldn't it? "

Why? I always correct people who refer to me as Anglo or Anglo American or WASP.

I find people of color are often ignorant of the cultural differences between Europeans and European Americans, and many of them enjoy learning about the cultural backgrounds of different cultural groups--especially if they have ancestors from those cultures. The assumption that we are all one big happy and pure white family couldn't be further from the truth, but there you have it.

The best example I can think of regarding that sort of mistaken thinking is the Latino habit of referring to all whites as "Anglos". I actually think that is a fairly old usuage, and is rooted in the conquering of the Americas, when the British took North America & a good chunk of the Caribbean, and the Spanish and Portuguese took Central and South America. The European construction of racial ideology is a bizarre subject, and now that the whole mess of assigning "racial characteristics" of peoples has been debunked by genetics, maybe we'll be able to move beyond racial stereotyping. But sadly, working in an inner city high school doesn't make me optimistic about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 06:59 PM

PoppaGator,

Though this is definitely a digression from the heart of the topic of cross cultural marriages, I would like to offer an abbreviated version of my opinion of why "African American' won the contest for the best group referent for Black people in the United States...

Once upon a time, as I'm sure that you're aware, some people of African descent in the United States used the referent 'African' to describe themselves. As evidence of this, one can point to the Protestant denominations AME and AME Zion [African Methodist Episcopal and African Methodist Episcopal Zion]

In the mid to late 1960s the referents for Black Americans were really in flux. During this time, a number of African countries were becoming independent nations. For the first time for many of us, the continent of Africa, and African cultures were getting some favorable press. For a growing number of Black Americans it was a matter of pride to be identified with historical & contemporary mother Africa.

At that time in the United States the 'melting pot theory' was being ditched for the 'multi-cultural' mosaic theory on how American culture is shaped. As a result in this paradigm shift the mass media was paying more attention to the positive contributions that each hypenated ethnic group in the United States provided to the whole..

If was therefore not surprising that eventually the term 'Afro-American' was added to the list of hyphenated Americans [although as per Americans' custom to simplify things, the two words came to be used without the hypens]. So you heard more about "Italian Americans", "Asian Americans", "Native Americans", and "Irish Americans". And you also heard about "European Americans", although I believe California's Latino Americans started using the group referent "Anglo American" instead of "European American".

Then it was that some formerly Negro, formerly colored people argued that we should just use "black" or "black Americans' as our formal group referent. But there was a real problem with this referent. Notice that all the group names but 'black' were capitalized. Did the use of the small 'b' connote a lessened status?...Many thought it could be interpreted this way. So though "black Americans'was still used informally {often with the 'b' capitolized, the search was still on for a formal group referent.

For a while "Afro-American" appeared to be the winner. But then someone noticed that the beginning word for all these hyphenated names except 'Afro' referred to a geographical place-a homeland. Others noticed that 'afro' spelled with a small 'a' was the name of a natural hairstyle that was gaining prominence among segments of Black Americans at that time. For sure brothers and sisters didn't want their formal group name confused with the name of a hairstyle...No, the group name had connote pride and promote a connection with the glories of Africa past and the promise of Africa now and in the future..

What name would it be? Why, African American of course the leaders exclaimed! And the people followed their leaders lead as people are usually do.   

So that was how "African American" won the what-to-call-us contest. And that is why African American remains the formal referent for us still today.

[Sat on a pin; my story end}

Thanks for your patience with this digression.

Now let's return to the discussion of cross cultural marriages...

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:25 PM

"the whole mess of assigning "racial characteristics" of peoples has been debunked by genetics"
Bingo. But then I guess those of us who believe in genetics are "high
on crack".

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:38 PM

Just a bit of a drift here...Indulge me while I tell a beautiful love story. I knew the participants years ago.

He (American) marries a Japanese girl when they are young. They make a life for themselves in the South. (not sure if there were children) When they were older and retired, they moved to Japan!

I often wondered if I could do that. It seems that the older I get, the less I'm willing to adapt...

I guess (like any marriage) if each person is giving 80% or so, things will work out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 08:47 PM

No, I didn't say that. I said it was ridiculous to declare there is no such thing as race, while simultaneously ignoring the effects of racism, discrimination, thereby erasing all cross-cultural differences rooted in the culture of race in the US.

Those who make sweeping statements about race being non-existent, and then attempt to make the subject of race relations out of bounds in a discussion about cross-cultural differences, are high on crack. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:08 PM

Oh, good, just what this thread needs. More absurd guest pronouncements. ("Absurd" is meant to modify "pronouncement," but I see how this could be confusing, since we also have an absurd guest).

But pardon me, I shouldn't be feeding the troll.

Guest who started this, I'm out of here. But if you found anything useful in the posts I sent that are germane to your topic and would like to send PM, please feel free.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 04:41 AM

stamp feet---------wahhhhhhh---------i've lost again---------listen to me--------nasty guest--------waaahhhhhhhhh----zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:33 AM

Guest - "cross-cultural differences rooted in the culture of race in the US." Huh???

What is the world is the "culture of race"???

Do you mean a racist culture?

I think you need to get a handle of what culture is. It has nothing to do with race. Most cultures include a variety of skin colour.

According to the genome project, we all have a common, African mother. This scientific understanding may change with time but as it stands today, there are no races.

Hitler started that "race" theory when he was trying to substantiate a superior white race. The farthest he got was tracing a linguistic pattern and linking Europeans to Iranians - thus the so-called Aryans. Changes in genetic make-up have occurred over time due to geography and environment. There is absolutely no proof that we are separate people. We all came from an original mother and she was probably black.

GUEST,Guest; but regular member -

Jealousy is cross-cultural but can be overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:20 AM

Actually, there are a lot of cultural differences rooted in race. Tons of them. But then, if you don't know any people of color, or never or rarely have contact with them, you are clueless to that fact. Which, in my experience, is the case with most Mudcatters.

Come on down, and sit in the cafeteria of my urban high school for a couple of days, and you'll see EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I talk about cultural differences rooted in race.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:11 AM

Guest Guest anonymous but regular... OK, got you.... but your problem isn't 'cross cultural', it's plain ol' human beings being human!

Sounds very much as if your partner has discovered that resentment I posted of earlier... it's not an easily recognised emotion for a lot of people.

It sounds as if the resentment of your former life has come to a head, despite all that you have together. Your son is a constant reminder that there was someone else before and your wanting to visit/contact him is just rubbing salt into an open wound. It sounds as if your partner feels there is always the possibility you will choose him over her. It's a very difficult situation but it's not unsaveable I suspect. Talk to each other, find out exactly what it is that they are afraid of, and try to work it out.

Thinking of you.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

Cross-cultural means it is present in many cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Teresa
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:42 PM

Guest Regular Member,

I'm sorry things happened the way they did. :( I hope there is still a chance you can work things out and still have a rewarding relationship with your son.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: hilda fish
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:19 AM

Guest - "cross-cultural differences rooted in the culture of race in the US." Huh???

What is the world is the "culture of race"???

Do you mean a racist culture?
Respectfully I would offer that there is a culture of race and it is written about extensively particularly in post-colonial and pedgogical theory among others. Let's study power, Foucault argued, where 'it is in direct and immediate relationship with ... its object, its targer' ... how things work at the level of on-going subjugation at the level of thos continuous and uninterrupted processes which subject our bodies, govern our gestures, dictate our behaviours etc.' (Foucault 1980a, 97)   Ålso read Fanon, Homi Baba, Stoler et al "Raciology', a strategy working in conjunction with anthropology was simparly underpinned by evolutionary thinking and a comparative method. ?y 'raciology' Paul ?ilroy (2000) meant 'a variety of essentializing and reductionist ways of thinking that are both biological and cultural' (72) Raciology conisists of an 'ensemble of notions' that constituted the nineteenth century racialized imaginary and the 'raciological gaze'. fanon used the term 'epidermalization which was 'a perceptual regime in which the racialized body is bounded and protected by its enclosing skin (46) The observers gaze looks at 'skin' and makes meaning of the body by its qualities of colour. Íkin colour and its apparently immediate truths are, in turn translated into colour coded ethics. Raciology, an essentializing temporal/spatial strategy, has been a dominant principle of political power. The 'primitive' (read black or colour) Fabian warneds, have never been a neutral act of classification but serve to justify the balues of European culture as dominant (all rely on a 'white' observer) and as a result thej 'outsider' and 'dominant culture' which has become part of our everyday language and concept informs the culture of race. It is very real if you are other than white and if you are white, then it is denied, of course, and ''we are all humankind' becomes the dominant discourse, but think. who is controlling THAT discourse and its language? statistically throughout the world, but particularly in western countries, it is a 'culture of race' where we accept that we are more likely to be imprisoned, where we are more likely to suffer treatable illness without treatment, where are less likely to be housed, educated, employed and so on. I offer this very humbly, not argumentatively. However it is a serious discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: hilda fish
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 01:31 AM

I meant to include this as well,

"What's wrong with the world, mama
...if you only have love for your own race
Then you only leave space to discriminate
And to discriminate only generates hate...
Man, you gotta have love just to set it straight."
(Black Eyed Peas)

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:12 AM

Good stuff, Hilda. Would you agree that a culture of race really means a racist culture? Thats how I read the previous post.

My point is that racist thinking is based on erroneous assumptions and stereotypes. Those values are certainly passed on from generation to generation and as you quoted above, "Raciology, an essentializing temporal/spatial strategy, has been a dominant principle of political power". I would call this discrimination based on the colour of one's skin, the easiest way to divide and conquer.

As soon as the subject of race is discussed, those involved in the conversation become racists because they are immediately legitimizing a negative, social/political construct. From a genetic point of view, races no longer exist. It is convenient for the power elite to perpetuate the myth of different races to insure their dominance by creating division in society.

As long as races, religions, and sexes continue to battle, they will never be able to unite as an opposing force to the dominant elite.

Personally, I feel that discussing different 'races' never solved anything. Discussing culture is interesting and as long as we focus on similarities it will be a much better world.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:25 AM

Well, I am married to a Japanese woman with a high degree of cultural education. That means I cannot just say things the way I want to all the time. For example, in Japan when giving an opinion they give the reason first and then make a mild statement which is their opinion. For me I state my opinion and stand ready to explain it if necessary. The other day after watching a news broadcast about the possibility of a woman sitting on the Chrysanthemum Throne I asked her opinion. She began with a history of the imperial family and was ten minutes into it when I started laughing. I only wanted her opinion, not the history of Japan. It took a while to soothe those hurt feelings.

In any marriage you have to work at being a partner and keeping things on an even keel. In a marriage that mixes cultures/races you have more work to do because every statement and action is fraught with peril.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: hilda fish
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:33 AM

With respect, 'culture of race' can mean both a racist culture but also can mean a strong positive identifier of 'other', depending on the context and where/who you are. For example, wherever I move in the world, peope of colour and skin call me 'sister' or 'brother' and I call them the same. We recognise first of all our 'culture of race' with all its integrated meaning. Discussing different 'races' from my perspective, ensures that I have a platform to tell my stories, as my people have a platform to 'testify'. In that way we can make ourselves 'exist' in history, including left history, in the same way that feminism had to make the 'personal' political in order to have the stories of women, first of all heard, then legitismised through comparing womens stories throughout the world, and finally, as women with our own 'womens' perspective, doing something about the rapes, domestic violence, and many other oppressions that diminished the human race as a whole. These oppressions clearly have not been overcome, but in 'naming' them then women have made them an issue for the human race, if you follow my thinking. Aboriginals have to assert their 'culture of race' as we are dying day by day. U.N. accepts that genocide is being practiced on our people but we haven't got a voice, a 'naming' within our own country and through our own government. We are invisible in the same way we were 'terra nullius'. We ARE of different races and it always puzzles me that here in Åustralia I am constantly told, as are my children and grand-children, that we are all 'Australian'. Of course we are! Isn't that self-evident as the fact that we are all of the human family. However, because of my people's very real history, politics, culture, and so on, and that of other people of colour/skin, we are very much who we are. I think that I have something to contribute and I love it when other races/cultures/identities share their differences as much as I love sharing who I essentially am. We are the same, of course, but think, do you like being called 'all women are the same' or 'all men are the same'. It denies the essence of our uniqueness within humankind. I offer these opinions humbly.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:12 AM

Hey hildafish, thanks for climbing on board, and taking the time to explain what I meant by "culture of race".

dianavan, I was a cultural studies major in college, for what that is worth, which isn't all the much actually. The construction of race was a European and European American phenomenon. It is quite fascinating to study the differences in the ways race was constructed by the British, and the ways race was constructed by the Spanish, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:32 AM

Sorry, I hit the send button before I finished.

Race is a false classification of people that is not based on any real or accurate biological or scientific truth. In other words, the distinction we make between races, has nothing to do with scientific truth.

Race is a political construction. The concept of race was created by Europeans as a classification of human beings with the purpose of giving power to European colonizers, and to legitimize the dominance of European colonizers over the people they were conquering.

Ethnicity refers to particular groups of people that share some common ancestry, traditions, language, or dialect. Before the world was made up of distinct nationstates or countries, certain pieces of land were associated with ethnic groups, like the Mayans or the Masai or the Celts or the Romany. Many people like to make ethnic distinctions as well as national distinctions to hold on to their ethnic culture and identity, ie 'Italian Americans' or 'African Americans'.

The word 'culture' is often misused as a euphemism for ethnicity, race, and nationality. It can be a useful term when used in a very narrow, academic sense to describe groups of people who share a language/dialect, or set of behaviors (ie 'traditions') that defines them as a specific group set apart from the dominant culture, like gay culture, or hip hop culture. And we haven't even touched upon religion at this point! But to my way of thinking, the word 'culture', as it is used nowadays, is a pretty lousy word because it causes more confusion than it clears up.

So when the original poster said "cross-cultural marriage" I asked what they meant by the word 'culture' because there is no way of knowing without asking what a person means when they say 'culture'. It might be a euphemism for race, ethnicity, nationality, straight vs gay culture, class, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 10:42 AM

Hilda Fish:

As an African American sista, I say DITTO to everything you said..

To make a simplistic analogy: a gardener isn't discriminating if he points out that the flowers in his or her garden are of different colors.

But that gardener would be doing wrong if he provided fertilizer, weeded, praised, promoted and otherwise provided attention & care to one portion of that garden based on the color of those flowers, and neglected and systematically tried to root out other flowers because he doesn't like their color.

Dianavan, while I respect what you are saying, and wish that race wouldn't still be viewed in a negative way, and negatively impact the people of that race -and those who are in power- it does...

But I would also posit that racial referents can also be used as neutral descriptors. So many times I have experienced that in public settings or even in one on one interactions with non-White individuals, some White people are reluctant [afraid?] to even mention race..

For instance, about 20 years ago, I was a student advisor at a small liberal arts college. My office was right outside a large study hall. One day this White student who I knew came into my office and asked me if I had by any chance seem 'Jennifer' that morning as they were supposed to meet to study. As it happens 'Jennifer' is a very common female name, and I had seen a number of Jenifers..So I asked the woman which Jennifer? What is her last name? She says she doesn't know..So I ask her what does Jennifer look like? The woman gave some descriptors but studiously avoided using any racial terms to describe the "Jennifer" study partner.

I've thought about that incident alot since it occurred. I see it as one example of the difference in the ways that White & non-White people use race as a neutral descriptor. In the same instance that I cited, I believe a Black woman talking to another Black person would have said something like "She's light skin" or "She's real light" or "She's dark skinned" or "She has real dark skin" or "She's regular' skin color [meaning a brown that is neither light or dark] or "She's our skin color" or "She's got the same skin color as you do" or "She's red bone" {meaning has a reddish tone to her skin color".. or "She looks mixed" {which in truth can mean anything but usually refers to a certain kind a light skin color" etc etc etc...

A Black person might also describe the hair texture particularly if the person she or he is seeking has naturally curly or naturally straight hair {as opposed to chemically straigthened hair} or wore braids, or an afro or dread locks..

My point is that intra-racial and cross-racial references to skin color {including the mention of different gradations of 'black' skin color} do not have to be either negative or positive...They can be a value neutral descriptor.
--

And, Hidla Fish, I'm SOOO GLAD you're here!!


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

I run into the PCness of physical descriptions all the time here at school (urban high school). There are a lot of staff people who aren't willing to do say "the African American boy sitting over there--not th light skinned kid, the darker kid with the braids wearing the blue hoodie..." When I say something like that to certain staff members, they are taken aback that I would describe a person of color so matter of factly.

I also do it with white kids too though. Because just like their are "shades" and "tones" to dark skinned people, there are also to light skinned people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM

15years ago I married a blue whale, and we get along just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

If the "guest" postings after the initial post are all the same person, I owe the person an apology for some things said in anger based on misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: KateG
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:54 PM

I would agree with what the Guest who posted at 8:27 this AM said about culture being used as a euphemism for race, class, ethnicity etc. However, I would disagree somewhat about the distinctions being made just by dominant groups to differentiate themselves from supposedly subordinate ones. The tendancy to divide the world into "us" and "them" is pretty universal, and can be seen in virtally all walks of life and on every scale, from playground cliques to neighborhood rivalries and on up to full fledged ethnic and religious warfare. And the tendancy for that division works at all levels of the social and economic scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST,Guest but a regular member
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 07:01 PM

Again many thanks for all your posts. There is not a question of 'race' in the marriage. If there was we would never have married.

However the cultural divide can be quite daunting, things she has grown up with from childhood are not the same things that I have experienced and vice-versa.

I have changed a lot of my perceptions and ideas as I work and live here but some are so ingrained (on both sides) that they seem hard or impossible to change.

Without going into a lot of detail which for me is too personal to go into and further if I did write it all down it would be a one sided point of view (mine)there being no input from my wife, things have come to a crunch.

All your posts have helped me think about what next to do, which is to sit down and clear the air and find out what expectations we have of each other.

I am a pretty private and self contained person and that is the reason I have not given my name to the thread, I do not want to turn this into an Oprah type sit on the couch self confession thing.

Maybe that is also part of the problem as in my own family background we hardly ever discussed very personal issues, swept them under the carpet mostly.

I was even hesitant to post as a guest, but I knew that within Mudcat there was some sage advice to be had. Many thanks to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:32 AM

Good luck, Guest, I hope you pull through this. Just a little note: You mentioned the inability to "change" some of the ingrained culture-based elements or habits/practices. Just a thought - perhaps "accept", "learn to live with" is what's needed, rather than change.

All the best

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

Hilda Fish and Azizi - I'm glad you'r both here. I actually think we probably agree about this but I'm not sure you realize I was replying to a post that seemed racist. I agree that racism exists (I just don't want to be a part of it). I do not agree that there are separate races. Maybe this will help explain what I was trying to say:

Some nuclear DNA sequences (including Y-chromosome data) and mtDNA indicate that modern humans originated and migrated relatively recently from a subset of the African population, putting Africa as the home of modern humanity. A study of human Y-chromosome variation in a worldwide sample of over 1,000 men determined that Africans and non-African males shared a common ancestor 59,000 years ago and that the non-African branch of humanity left Africa about 44,000 years ago. Such time estimates are based on the molecular clock hypothesis . Y-chromosome studies tend to misinterpret demographic events related to the origin and spread of populations, underestimating the age of those events. Mike Hammer (1995) at the University of Arizona, sequenced 2,400 bases in the same Y chromosome region from 16 ethnically diverse humans and four chimpanzees, and dated the common ancestral human Y chromosome at 188,000 years with a 95 percent confidence interval from 51,000 to 411,000 years. Other data shows that Africans and non-Africans split about 156,000 years ago (Underhill, et al, 2000), (Ingman, 2000). Within Africa the oldest modern human fossil is just less than 160,000 years old and represented by Homo sapiens idaltu. (http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_mod.htm)

Thanks to Freda Underhill (on another thread) for adding this to our forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:34 PM

About "changing" one's partner: It doesn't work that way, tho your boundaries on what you consider acceptable behavior toward you are your busniness. It is workable and within your rights to say, "I do not want to be treated this way [specify] and would prefer to be treated this way [specify]." Or, "when this happens [specify] I feel like this [specify]." And/or: "When this happens [specify] or when I feel like this [specify], from now on I will respond by removing myself from that behavior [or other specified self-protective action]."

If it is that you are the partner who has moved to the other partner's culture, and are a minority there, then you have all the issues to deal with that any minority does in any culture-- including how to remain your full self while refusing to feel victimized.... how to remember you're fine and it's just cultural difference..... how to receive equitable treatment without yourself becoming a victimizer....

Your best allies in dealing with this are going to be other people of your own culture of origin also living in this other culture-- emotional support, wisdom on strategies within the partnership and in the larger society, etc.

One thing that will NOT work, if this is part of the problem, is expecting your partner to advocate for/defend you to others. Love you, yes; see your best, yes; hold up your best to others, yes of course; but defend? Not a helpful path.

If you are the one coming into this from another culture, then it's reasonable to take the approach that you are still learning how to deal with the "new" culture..... how to appreciate its best and deal with the rest.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM

dianavan,

I appreciate the information that you posted, and, frankly wish that others understood that when all is said & done, we are all one people.

However, such scientific facts, and lofty humanistic sentiments doesn't negate what is happening out in there in the 'real world'.
In the real world people act on their beliefs that there are many races.

One of my points was that this was not always done with negative intentions.

However, IMO, this discussion may only be tangentially related to Guest, regular member's first post.

I should have said this before: I wish him & his partner well.

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:51 PM

Azazi. Hilda, and Dianavan; If a few people "out there in the ether"
actually read and think about each of your contris on this thread, some little corners of the world will be better for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:53 PM

That comment deserves a cyperspace kiss, frogprince.

But rumour has it that such a kiss is capable of causing a complete transformation from frog to prince?!!?

I'm sure there's been folk songs composed about the power of cross cultural kissing..

if not someone needs to get smacking...

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:26 AM

Good luck original Guest. Likje so many others I do wish you well. I have nothing specific to add except that a bit of understanding and standing back and putting yourself out for your partner - will pay off. You seem an deep thinking and honst person. You deserve the best. We are all rooting for you.

A smile before I leave. I have a son in Japan who is living with a Japanese girl. My good mother in Holy Ireland (God rest her) would have had a seizure at the thought of such an arrangement!). She is a lovely girl and they get on so well. They are engaged, but she has yet to tell her folks. In traditional Japanese families parental (or more important paternal) consent is a must for a young girl.

My son was telling me of a male Japanese friend who was depressed because his sisters engaement was terminated. The lived in Kyushu - the southern island. Her Daddy's first question was "Where is he from" the reply: "From Tokyo". The definitive and blunt answer "No daughter of mine will marry a man from Tokyo"

My young fella is keping his fingers crossed. Happy weekend all mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:30 PM

I am an Australian married to an American. It's the big differences between people that gets emphasized in film and literature. I believe the big issues are the ones we at least understand more easily. I think the subtle differences can be more of a problem in real life. We are lucky. For us the differences are not important, sometimes a source of amusement. I can understand, though, how there is the potential for missunderstanding and hurt within a relationship that seems, from the outside, compatible.
Sorry, I know this is no help. I don't know how life works out so well for us. I just wanted to wish you well.
Good luck Guest-regular member. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cross cultural marriages
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:59 PM

I think, too, that language barriers can be very hard to cross even when you think you are fluent in the other language.

My daughter's boyfriend refers to me as 'the mother'. At first I was slightly offended. I then realized he used 'the' before any personal names, as well. My daughter is the girlfriend, my son is the brother, and so forth. He just doesn't quite have the English language, yet.

Believe me, he is so in love with my daughter, the last thing he wants to do is offend me.