Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Diddleedee
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:40 PM

I have joined up with the title Diddleedee.

Paroniod Android the web reference I gave you is incorrect. The correct address is:
www.heritagecouncil.ie/irelands_coastal_geology.pdf

Now how about that piss-up in Ireland?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST, Aiden Gallagher UK
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:16 PM

Further to my earlier reply; I think all the contributors should organise a 'Dooneen Reunion' in Ireland to sort this mess out. Bring your evidence with you. Failing mutual agreement, an Indian Arm Wrestling competition should sort it out!. Failing that, we'll all get pissed and have a good craic!
Fond Regards,
Aiden.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Aiden Gallagher Wimbledon, London, UK
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM

The cliffs of Dooneen are located at Allihies, on the coast of West Cork. This can be verified at www.heritagecouncil.ie/irelandscoastalgeology or something like that.
It is not a figment of the imiagination of the song writer.
I think you've been waiting a long time for this reply. Are you still there?

Subject:
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM

Subject:
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 03:38 AM

Let's clarify the geography!

Dooneen Point is 4 miles north of Ballybunion.

There are four townlands called Dooneen in Co. Kerry, but Dooneen Point isn't one of them! It's in the townland of Beal (not Beale), which is in the Parish of Kilconly.

A mile north east of Dooneen Point is Beal Point. Here are the ruins of an ancient castle. The relevant townland is Castlequarter.

Between Dooneen Point and Beal Point is Beal Bar, not a pub (!) but a two mile long sand bar.

East of Beal Point is a four mile long stretch of "golden" sands.

I have seen film of Dooneen Point and there are no cliffs as such, only rocks, but then, how do you define a cliff? I suspect "cliffs" is a little bit of poetic licence - "Rocks of Dooneen" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. "Sands of Dooneen" would be OK tho!

I am trying to source the relevant Shannon Side Annual. If I do, I'll post the information here.

btw, Kerry is the only County in Ireland that I've never been in, but that will be rectified soon.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 01:55 AM

Dooneen in "Barr na Sráide" is different from the one in "Cliffs".

"Leitir" (Letter, as in Letterkenny) is a townland just outside Cahersiveen. The Dooneen here is just north of the town.

btw, thanks Frances.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Brían
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 05:39 PM

Litir or leitir is a hillside. I was at Spancilhill last week an it was no less remarkable than many other hills famed by folk-poets on either side of the Pond.

B

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:28 PM

I've never found these alleged cliffs either, unless whoever wrote the song was referring to the cliffs just outside Kilkee as you drive south out of the town. You drive up the hill, park by some rock pools (a couple of which are big enough for kids to swim in) and then walk uphill for a quarter of a mile or so.

The cliffs are indeed high and rocky and very jagged as well. Instead of a sheer drop in places they go down to the sea in layers and if you're careful you can climb down as far as the surf. Watch out for the holes in the shelves of rock as it's a sheer drop from them into the sea a couple of hundred feet below. Stunning place.

I've been there twice and both times the weather was glorious.

Don't take kids, though. It's far too dangerous.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:07 PM

Frances -- ta for the info. Any idea when the song was written?

Slan,
Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Frances
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

Hi,
The cliffs of Dooneen are indeed between Ballybunion and Beale in North Kerry. The song was written by a man by the name of Mc Auliffe, he was from Lixnaw, Co. Kerry but wrote the song when he was a laborour with a family named Joy, who lived close to Dooneen point.
In the old version of the song there is a verse that goes.


The sand hills of Beale are glorious and grand
and the old castle ruins stands out on the strand
It is there you will see every lad an colleen
moving round to the slopes by the cliffs of Duneen.

There was a copy of the original song in the Shannon side annuals around the 60s.
Enjoy the song,
Frances

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:46 PM

Martin Ryan et al -- any luck with the author search? I'd be very interested to find out how old the song actually is.

BTW, Dooneen is also mentioned in Sigerson Clifford's "The Boys of Barr na Sraide":

We searched for birds in every furze
From Litir to Dooneen

Where's Litir, then?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,dhchaisson
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:40 PM

Oh well, all very interesting. I first heard the song sung in O'Flaherty's pub in Dingle in September of 1978. And I have heard it many more times since.That started me on a life long love of Irish folk songs, lead to the Wolftones, Clannard (whom I saw perform in a church basement in Harvard Square later that year) and of course Christy Moore and Donal Lunny, Mary Black and all the rest of them. I am preparing to return to Dingle on March 8th, I look forward to hearing it sung again. I was planning on walking out by Smerwick Harbor, if you like I will keep my eyes peeled for "'the high rocky slopes".

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Flash Company
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:45 AM

Totally irrelevant, but they used this tune extensively as background in a BBc2 programme about Castle Leslie last night.

FC

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:17 AM

In the post at 3.05 pm on 28th January 2005, I should have said 1:50000, not 1:5000, maps (of the Irish Ordnance Survey).

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:11 PM

Well that narrows it down a lot.. it pissed down every sodding day that week!

LTS

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM

I was curious about this a year or two back, and did an Internet search for "Dooneen". If I remember right I did find one in Co. Kerry, but on the Dingle Peninsula, which would be a good few miles south of Ballybunion. A recent web search gives a poem below which indicates there is a Dooneen on the Dingle Peninsula (relevant verse below).

The softly spoken Gaelic, tales of ships that sailed from Spain,
The ancient Church at Gallarus and Fuchia in the rain,
A school of glistening black canoes stranded at Dooneen,
And Brendan's Voyage from Brandon Creek for paradise unseen

My 1:5000 Irish Ordnance Survey Map No. 70 shows a "Dooneen Pier" at Grid Reference Q390092 in a west facing inlet on the north coast of the Dingle Peninsula, about a mile from Ballydavid and several miles along the coast from the above-mentioned Brandon Creek. The map does not show steep contours here so any cliffs if present are likely to be low.

As I have not been at the spot I cannot say whether one could see Kilkee and Kilrush, though this is perhaps possible. As far as I know there are cliffs on the Dingle Peninsula (certainly high mountains, as Mount Brandon rises to 3,127 feet) and it may be possible to see Kilrush and Kilkee from these.

Actually there is a Dooneen townland by the north coast of the Burren, Co. Clare, but it is on the coast where the coastline is low. With poetic license, one might call the parts of the rocky limestone hills nearby "cliffs", though I very much doubt if one could see Kilkee and Kilrush from them. I often stay at a guesthouse not far away (though just inside Co. Galway) and I asked the son of the guesthouse owner about this; he said he thought it did not refer to an actual place.

Irish OS Map No. 63 does show a Dooneen Point on the Shannon Estuary in Co. Kerry at Grid Reference Q884478 about 4 miles NNE of Ballybunion, and about 2 miles SW of Beal Point. The map shows contours sloping to the north rising up to 30 metres (about 100 feet) in the vicinity. I think it woule be stretching the point to call them cliffs, though they might possibly be rocky (I haven't visited them); they are certainly not on the same league as the Cliffs of Moher in Co. Clare, over 200 metres high. Kilkee is about 7-8 miles north of Dooneen Point, and Kilrush about the same distance to the north-east.

My own opinion as an outsider is that Dooneen Point near Ballybunion is the most likely candidate, but that the song writer used a bit of poetic license to call the area "The high rocky slopes of the CLIFFS of Dooneen". I suppose if they are rocky and sloping, then at least 2 of the 4 words used to describe them ("high, rocky, slopes, and cliffs") are correct.

It is interesting how little we know about the background of songs that presumably are written fairly recently. However songs are meant to be sung and enjoyed rather than analysed.

None of this should be regarded as conclusive. I also have been through Spancilhill in central Co. Clare and it seemed a rather flat and uninteresting place scenically.

The only town called Dooneen (according to an on-line directory http://uk.dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Ireland/Counties_and_Regions/County_Waterford/Cities_and_Towns/Dooneen/) is in Co. Waterford on the south coast of Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:37 AM

Unless my ears deceive me, the Cliffs of Dooneen sound a heck of a lot like the Cliffs of Baccalieu, the Newfie song (Stan Rogers used to sing it)-- probably the former is before the latter, but.....?


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:04 AM

I don't remember hearing mention of the author - nor or any earlier reference than those given above. Which is curious, alright. I'll have a look.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:50 PM

Quote from Christy Moore's songbook/autobiography "One Voice":

...Mick McGuane was a punk whistle player before Johnny Lydon had hair, and he used to sing a verse about `dancehalls and cinemas' which I cannot find. Anne Mulqueen used to sing it in a Sean Nos style while Andy Rynne used to do a right job of it in the back of O'Donohue's or in Pat Dowling's of a Wednesday night. But don't go looking there for the magic, it has flown on the wind to calmer quarters...

Christy also states "Author unknown".

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of Dooneen. WHERE?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:50 PM

The Walton books are a lot better than the Soodlums (which are often, unfortunately, quoted here); they contain a higher proportion of real Irish songs than is usual in such collections, and sometimes even proper writer credits (less often for the English songs included, of course).

The earliest reference in Roud is to the 1956 recording mentioned above. Does anyone know of anything earlier? It obviously isn't a very old song. Cristy Moore got it from Andy Rynne, but said no more about its origins so far as I know.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM

I crosslinked to the lyrics in the Digital Tradition, and to the other thread on this song. I didn't find much source information for the song itself. There's no entry in the Traditional Ballad Index, and only this short mention at folktrax.org:

CLIFFS OF DOONEEN, THE - "I've travelled so far from my native
home" "Far away o'er the mountains far away o'er the foam"
mentions view across the Shannon towards coast of Clare, Kilnarush, Kilkee -
ROUD#9236 -- Mrs Eileen SHERIDAN, rec by Seamus Ennis, London 1956: (RPL
LP 22363) - Irish traveller: LYRICHORD LL-178 1967 (3 v) "C of Duneen"
- BARNBRACK Irish Party Sing-Song: CASS-60-0927 "C of Dooneen"

This seems like a fairly recent song, and it seems we should be able to find a source or a name of a songwriter. This Google Search (click) will take you to a number of Websites with lyrics that are more-or-less the same as what you'll find in the Digital Tradition. The Very Best Irish Songs and Ballads (Walton Publishing) has one different word in the first line:

You may travel far, far from your own native home.

The Walton book says Dooneen Point lies six miles north of Ballybunion, County Kerry. The Walton book does not name a source for the song.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:13 AM

We didn't get out of the car at Dooneen as it was pissing down and all we could see from the road was dunes and not cliffs. I understand the dunes are high enough to qualify as cliffs by the river. It's worth remembering that sand dunes have a tendency to be eroded far faster than chalk or granite and the cliffs may have had a better view across the Sahnnon when the song was written. And no, it doesn't seem to have been written by an aviator as we speculated.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:06 AM

I think those cliffs at Dooneen come into the same category as the hill at Spancil (sp?).There aren't any, and there isnt one. Much like those banks of sweet primroses on a midsummer morning in English folk song, or that girl from Kent going nutting in the summer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:45 AM

3 miles north of Ballybunion? Blimey, I might even have been there!!! I wouldn't realise it though, not being familiar with the song... and the car I was travelling in contained 3 die-hard folkies with an Irish tradition.

We had a 'rule' that if you knew a song/tune about the place we were driving through/past, you sang the song or hummed the tune. I suspect that rule was suspended when we drove through Limmerick. The other female in the car couldn't remember 'Limmerick, you're a lady' and I just started off with 'There once was a fellow called Clyde, who fell in a cesspit and died', and carried on all the way through Limmerick.

If we went through Dooneen after Limmerick (we drove around a lot!), then I wouldn't have heard the song.

LTS

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: Big Tim
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 04:45 AM

There's a "Dooneen" Point on the Kerry shore, 3 miles north of Ballybunion. Kilkee is 8 miles directly north across the Shannon estuary, and Kilrush is 8 miles to the north east.                  

I haven't been there, so I don't know if both towns would be visible. However, from the 1:50,000 Ordnance Survey map, I'd say so. Kilrush is across open water and the angle is quite tight but the north west area of the town looks to be visible. Kilkee is across 3 miles of water and 5 more of flat Clare countryside.

I'd say that Dooneen means "little fort" and there is indeed the ruin of a "promontory fort" marked as being there. From that specific point, Kilrush wouldn't be visible (Beal Point, two miles north east would block the view). However, if the songwriter (who was he, or she?) walked about a quarter of a mile north east, Kilrush would probably begin to come into view. I hope that's clear!            

If there are any cliffs there, they must be modest ones, as they are not marked on the OS map. There are no roads leading to Dooneen, so if the writer did indeed stand there, he, or she, must have walked across about half a mile of open countryside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 06:53 PM

Ah!, t'is true me boy. The annoying part of all this is that about 20 years ago I drove along the north Kerry coast and found a place called Dooneen and looked across the estuary at Co. Clare. My problem is that I'm not too sure at this stage that the event above actually happed. Sure isn't drink a grat yoke!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

Yes, there is a Dooneen in North Kerry across the estuary and from which "Kilkee and Kilrush can be seen".

But, don't take that Clare crowd too seriously. At least Donnen has more validity than Gloccamorra!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:06 PM

We asked for info in Ennis Tourist Information about the Siege of Ennis. We were told there wasn't one.

Stu

Subject: RE: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:00 PM

I was in Ireland last September and endeavoured to travel to several locations given in song. For example, I went to Spanish Point and stood on the white strand, as Andy Irvine did in his song "The West Coast of Clare". A particularly poignant moment came when I sat in the famine graveyard Old Shanakyle outside Kilrush and there sang the song of the same name.

I tried to find out the location of the Cliffs of Doneen, "where the towns of Kilrush and Kilkee can be seen", but was unable to pinpoint a location high up enough to afford a view of both towns. Like Guest paranoid android, I surmised the location to be in northern Kerry, perhaps along R551 west of Ballylongford, or perhaps in westernmost Clare, heading toward Kilbaha and Loop Head on the R487, but I had no success in my search.

I also was told the Cliffs don't exist outside of the songwriter's imagination.

Cheers,
Michael

Cheers

Subject: Origins: Cliffs of dooneen. WHERE?
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:31 PM

Because the song "Cliffs of Dooneen" refers to several locations in County Clare most people assume that the cliffs of Dooneen are in County Clare. I have long held the view that the cliffs of Dooneen are located near Beal in north Co. Kerry which is located on the Shannon Estuary facing towards Co. Clare. I recently met a County Clare man who said that the cliffs of Dooneen are non existent and are merely a figment of the song-writer's imagination. Has anyone out the got the definitive answer?