Election in Iraq

Subject: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST,native Guest
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

Do you think a 10 % vote in Iraq ,would be concidered an a victory for the Bush people?

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: breezy
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Let us pray for the people of that poor country, rehabilitation takes time, considering the problems that srill exist, its good that any kind of progress is being made.
Any progress is better than none so all credit to those who are trying especially the politicians who take on the responsibiblity often at the risk to their own lives.

Its still a mess in Israel.

It was once a bigger mess in Northern Ireland

'let peace prevail' and hope in the future for mankind.

Never lose sight of the responsibility of your vote in a democracy.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

It was never a bigger mess in Northern Ireland. Get things in perspective!

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:22 PM

The question is, who are they really voting for?   Think about that. Who picks the candidates who get to run? Who decides who does and doesn't run for office in such a situation? He with the most money and firepower, that's who. Just like in North America. Guess who wins such a vote? The favorites of he who has the most money and firepower.

And they call it "democracy"? Ha! It isn't democracy here...it is far less so in Iraq. It's the rubberstamping of the appointees of a dominant order by its human victims.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: John Routledge
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

It was once a bigger mess than it is now

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: s&r
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM

can this be moved below the line

Stu

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

This is NOT a music thread!

It's a serious subject, certainly, and not "bulls**t" in the general sense ~ but in Mudcat terms, this should really be situated below the "BS" line.

Breezy, I agree that we should all pray for peace and a favorable outcome, but I beg to differ with your assertion "all credit to those who are trying especially the politicians who take on the responsibiblity often at the risk to their own lives."

My take on the politicians responsible for this mess is that, while they are more than willing to put the lives of many *others* at risk, they themselves aren't risking a thing.

Well, maybe there's some risk that their munitions-contract profits will only be large, rather than obscenely huge...

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:46 PM

breezy may be referring to the Iraqi candidates, who put their lives at risk merely by announcing that they will run.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:01 PM

To answer the question directly, the Bush people will consider it a success no matter what happens.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM

This thread would be much more interesting if it was called:

Erection in Iraq

So many here seem to have a hard on about it.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:14 PM

I think the politicians being referred to are those who are willing to take the risk of running for office in Iraq. God save them.

A

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM

Nerd and Amos, point taken. The candidates running in the Iraqi election are indeed putting themselves at great risk.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 05:08 PM

Bev and Jerry - You are absolutely right. Astute observation. For Mr Bush, it is an important PR exercise. He must create the impression that he is building a democracy there, for the sake of the home audience. He must maintain the impression that he is "fighting terrorism" too. Either way, he will view anything that happens there as a success, I'm sure. (unless someone blows off an A-bomb, anyway...)

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM

In today's press conference, Bush was asked, "What would be a credible turnout number?"

His response was, "The fact that they're voting, in itself, is successful. Again, this is a long process. It is a process that will begin to write a constitution and then elect a permanent assembly. And this process will take place over this next year. It's a -- it is a grand moment for those who believe in freedom."

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Teresa
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:14 PM

Well, Bush was (again) successful in sidestepping a question. :>

Teresa

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:16 PM

Well, he is a sentimental old sot, and I agree with him, about it being grand and all, but I wish he could have managed it competently instead of how he did.


A

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:31 PM

Oh well, EVERY moment is a grand moment for "those who believe in freedom", isn't it? LOL! What a smarmy statement. Who the hell doesn't believe in freedom? It would be quite difficult to find people anywhere who do NOT believe in freedom (as they understand it)...but very easy to find those who can blithely dispense with someone else's chosen freedoms whilst righteously securing their own.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 09:55 PM

I keep hoping to read where Bush has thrown his hat into the ring in the Iraq election. Heck with Karl Rove, Katherin Harris and Diebold he could take any of them teal Iragis... Then he could resign the presidency here, move to Iraq and take over where Saddam left off, which would be right up his alley...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 10:28 PM

Complete bullshit Bobert.

In fact, stupid.

Not clever. Not funny.

Moronic, childish, and written by someone who never has anything good to say about America.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 11:31 PM

Bobert:

It won't work. He can't say Abu Ghraib.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Boab
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 04:04 AM

Something good MAY result from this election. If it does you can bet your last dollar that Bush and co WONT be pleased.....

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:57 AM

You know what this is? It's grand hubris. It's as if we were a small power here in North America, a minor country with a 3rd rate military, and the Muslim World was a superpower...think about it for a minute...and they came here in overwhelming force with thousands of soldiers, tanks, airplanes...smashed everything up, devastated our armed forces, towns, and cities...

And then they occupied the whole country with armed troops. They further proceeded to give us the "gift" of their entire culture, with their viewpoints about freedom, liberty, etc...which meant giving us their version of exactly how to set up and run a good Islamic society.

Would we all be grateful and cooperative for their kindness?

I don't think so!

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 04:20 AM

LH

Sort of like the Deep South in the early 60's. ANd when the troops came in, all those good ol' boys did was to blow up a few places of worship and kill some of them uppity invaders...

I guess that would be ok, then?

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 07:37 AM

It was in the news yesterday.....even the terrorists have said in their latest tape to the media....they are fighting the installation of a democracy. They would rather have a totalitarian dictatorship (Bobert...that means one mean man in charge of everything). Their hope is to bring back the culture of the 8th century when the Muslims were conquering pretty much everything in that part of the world. Any success in implementing (Bobert...that means starting) a democracy in Iraq would be a crushing blow to all insurgents (Bobert....that means bad guys.)


Susu's Hubby

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

Susu's husband - I realize that on an internet forum we are all prone to oversimplification but your comments above, really take the cake. A totalitarian dictatorship? If its a choice between an imposed U.S. democracy with Arabs at the helm, maybe you're right. Their choice is between invaders and theocratic rule. I think you are right about their desire of forming an alliance of Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq but I question your statement that: "Their hope is to bring back the culture of the 8th century when the Muslims were conquering pretty much everything in that part of the world".

You are right about the 8th century being the Golden age of Islam but before you decide that it was a 'bad thing' maybe you should read some history.

http://www.stormwind.com/common/islam.html

Rather than "conquering pretty much everything in that part of the world", you should say they are re-claiming their ancient roots.

Why should the U.S. determine their fate?

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

The question remains: why are American troops there?

1. To establish fourteen military bases there.
2. To spend a billion on an American Embassy there.
3. To establish a springboard to invade Iran.
4. To destablize the Muslim communities there and offer Christianity to them.
5. To have American businesses get the contracts to rebuild Iraq.
6.   To impose a leader who will be indebted to the US government.
7. To get even for the failures of Vietnam.

It's not going to work. Americans are there for the wrong reasons.

There can be no freedom,democracy and security when a foreign power occupies a land through pre-emptive warfare and imposes an election on it.

Imagine what would happen if Main Street America were invaded premptively by a foreign power who wanted to spread their ideas of freedom and democracy? Then they would set up elections to put in power someone of their choosing?

Frank

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:20 PM

Isn't this just an interim election? Don't they have to vote again in 10 months? Hmmm...

I wonder if the Shiite moderates can hold on to their power (assuming that they will win the election) or if the U.S. will have to protect them from Iran.

This is far from over.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

Anything short of the American forces being physically thrown out of Iraq by the Iraqis will be considered a victory by Mr Bush. He's a real optimist about stuff like this. :-)

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:24 PM

I would like to change my question above, to the following:

I wonder if the Shiite moderates can hold on to their power (assuming that they will win the election) or if the U.S. will have to protect them from extreme fundamentalists from the Sunni sect and/or fundamentalists from the Iranian Shiites.

If you were Iraqi, would you rather be governed by Islamic fundamentalists or the American military?

I don't think Bush has solved any of the problems in the middle east and I doubt if the Iraqi people think that his intervention was worth the many lives which have been altered by death, injury and destruction to their homes and infrastructure.

Fact is, apart from Saddam, who has he actually conquered? What has he actually achieved?

Its enough to make the women of North America want to cover their heads in solidarity with the women of the middle east. We are all daughters, sisters and mothers! How much more can they endure?

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:49 PM

IRAQIS BITTERLY DIVIDED OVER OSCAR NOMINATIONS


Sunnis May Sit Out Awards Night, U.S. Fears


The announcement of nominations for the 77th annual Academy Awards have exposed deep divisions within Iraq, with Sunnis and Shiites "bitterly" split over this year's Oscar nods, U.S. officials said today.

The angry reaction to the award nominations, especially among members of Iraqi's minority Sunni population, was seen today as a major setback for the U.S.-led coalition's mission to stabilize that strife-torn nation.

At the State Department, hopes had been high that the announcement of this year's Best Picture nominees would be a unifying event for the Iraqi people, inspiring them to set aside age-old rivalries and hatreds to celebrate the best that Hollywood has to offer.

Some U.S. diplomats were cautiously optimistic, for example, that Martin Scorcese's "The Aviator" could succeed in galvanizing the Iraqi people in a way that Interim Prime minister Iyad Alawi has so far been unable to do.

But after "The Aviator" scooped up 11 nominations, drawing cheers from Shiites across the country, furious Sunnis howled in protest that "Sideways," a Sunni favorite, only picked up six.

In oil-rich Kirkuk, Sunni accountant Adnan Abu Al-Attar, 37, said he had considered hosting an Oscar party before the nominations were announced but was now "so hopping mad" about the potential for an "Aviator" sweep that he would sit on his hands instead come Oscar night.

"As far as most Sunnis are concerned, the Oscars have lost all credibility," he said. "They might as well be the Golden Globes."

Elsewhere, U.S. officials said that exit polls for the I

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

The election in Iraq is to elect people who will write that country's constitution. The election to elect officials comes later.

Who can say what percentage of turn-out signals a successful election with certaintity? Beats me. If it's a 80% turn-out, which has been predicted there will still be those who say it was not successful.

I should think anything in the neighborhood of fifty or sixty percent would be adequate.

DougR

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: mg
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:36 PM

I'd say if you have to run a death gauntlet to vote 20% would be amazing. mg

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:52 PM

Exactly right, Mary. How many people (of any nation) would risk their lives to vote? How many voted in the last U.S. election?

But then we will never really know how many voted because there are no international observers. Whatever number George comes up with will be the exact percentage and I'm sure it will be high.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:22 AM

I wonder who Saddam voted for?

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:51 AM

To introduce a little music into the thread: one of the Iraqi musicians I have been working with over the last few years(in England) has put on his national dress, taken a drum for a bit of music, and gone to Manchester to vote, and sing some celebratory songs. I know it is fashionable for people on the left to sneer at these elections, but I would like to put it on record here that Iraqis I know are taking this very seriously and are delighted to get a chance to vote. I am just off to work this afternoon with several Iraqis, so I will report back here if anything interesting is said about the elections.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:22 AM

Iraquis have been given the right to vote, but their safety not guaranteed.
The insurgents told them not to vote on pain of death.
Overwhelmingly, they have chosen to vote. some have already been killed because of it.
(Dianavan, there are UN observers. They are saying turnout is over70%)

So now you know.
If you oppose the election you oppose the will of the ordinary Iraquis, clearly and openly expressed in the face of intimidation.

You are saying that you know better than them what is best for them.
Think on it.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:35 AM

There is a thrill of delight going through Iraq as people all over the country are actually voting in spite of terrorist discouragement. This all by itself is a wonderful thing, and certainly badly needed in the middle of Bush's highly problematic nation-builing project.

I wish them well in their creation of a parliament. I also wish that those elected do not get blown away in the coming weeks.


A

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM

Apparently the UN did send observers .

I had been bothered by earlier reports that they would not monitor the election. I believe Bobert wrote yesterday that there was only one UN observer, and that in the Green Zone. Not sure where he got that.

"UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's representative in Iraq described the election as "transparent and fair" and took heart at what he said was a high turnout.

'Even in security difficult areas, there are people lining up to vote. In the north and in the south, the turnout is particularly heavy,' the UN official, Ashraf Qazi, told AFP."

Anyway, it seems it was a pretty good day in Iraq.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:00 PM

Thanks, Dianavan, for proving my point. Regardless of how successful the election is in Iraq, there will be those who question it's authinticity. It would seem to me that all one has to do is view the joy in the faces of the Iraqis who voted on television to determine that a historic event has taken place before our very eyes.

Still gloom and doom Mudcatters will decry that, in fact, the sky is falling.

DougR

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:05 PM

"Guest-
I wonder who Saddam voted for? "

I would guess "Fahrenheit 9/11"



If the Iraqi turnout is greater than US turnout percentage wise, I think that will be a true humiliation.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Actually I don't see good evidence that the UN particpated in monitoring the election. Ashraf Qazi seems to be a UN "special representative" in Iraq, for general purposes.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:45 PM

heric - I believe the observers were independent of the U.N.

From your link: "A group that organised 10,000 independent observers for the vote said there had been very little fraud."

"Our observers remarked that in general the elections went ahead in an excellent way and there was very little fraud or violations."a spokesman for the Ain (Eye) non-government organisation told a press conference."

Thank goodness there is someone watching.

For the Iraqis, this is a big day! It seems that holding up the finger that has been inked has provided the Iraqis with a symbol of solidarity. I am very happy for them and I hope that their new found freedom will sustain them in the months ahead.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:42 PM

It was fantastic today, I was rehearsing a show with a very multi cultural cast and two were Iraqis wiwth purple fingers, who had voted in Manchester. Extraordinary, a real feeling of history being made, of optimism and courage.Sneerers, keep sneering if you want, but you have been sidelined by a genuinely popular and very moving event. Who knows what the futiure will bring, but lets salute some really brave people, who risked being murdered(and many people were) to exercise the right to vote.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:49 PM

This "Purple Finger" business bothers me - hopefully unnecessarily. If any wanted to attack people who voted, they would have had to attack or monitor the polling stations, which are comparively well guarded. Instead, they now seem to have a ready means to identify anyone who voted for the next day or two, well away from any kind of protection.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:55 PM

danavan: Thanks for that post. I'm happy you recognize the historic significance of this election, and that the Iraqi people may, at last, have a real chance at establishing a government of their own choosing.

DougR

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

there was an article somewhere that talked about how the old women were essentially offering themselves up as those to be shot, I presume to spare the younger ones...I doubt I will be as brave when i am old because I am surely not now. mg

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:11 PM

Sham elections are always popular. Espcecially when people are being fired upon and followed to the polls by Bradley tanks, to make sure they are "safe".

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

I know this is a sham, because I know it. It's obvious. sham sham sham shamshamsham. Just another sham. Sham. Just another fake US staged sham, like all the others. Take your heads out of the sand, idiots. Guns to their heads. Sham. Hegemony. Imperialism.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:20 PM

Anyone here remember the US staged elections in Vietnmam? That is to say, the MANY elections? Do any of you remember how many Vietnamese premiers were assassinated during that whole fiasco?

Well, if you can't remember, maybe that's why you think these Iraqi elections are just the bees knees.

Subject: RE: Election in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

It is a sham all right, like those elections in South Vietnam were...But...I send my good wishes to all Iraqis who went out and voted in all good faith for positive change, regardless. I hope at least some of their hopes are rewarded.

You see, I am quite prepared to see both sides on this particular issue. There are generally good people on both sides of any issue.