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What are jubal hounds?

DigiTrad:
BOLD REYNARD
REYNARD THE FOX (3)
THE KIELDER HUNT
YOU GENTLEMEN OF HIGH REKNOWN


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Lyr Req: The Keilder Hunt / Kielder Hunt (14)
Lyr Req: Ye Gentlemen of High Renown (5)
Lyr Req: Bold Reynolds (6)


Malcolm Douglas 31 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM
Nerd 31 Jan 05 - 08:54 PM
GUEST,Uncoknight 03 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM
Gurney 04 Feb 05 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Allen 06 Jun 05 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Max Johnson 07 Feb 11 - 08:13 AM
C-flat 07 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM
Stilly River Sage 07 Feb 11 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Max Johnson 07 Feb 11 - 12:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Feb 11 - 02:21 PM
ClaireBear 07 Feb 11 - 02:37 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Jul 11 - 06:26 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jul 11 - 05:28 AM
Mo the caller 30 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jul 11 - 03:35 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM
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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM

It's also unwise to make assumptions based on a misunderstanding of syntax and etymology, and the fact that this song has been found only once, ever, with "jubal" (however spelled) in it; and that in the Edwardian period. As I've said already, find me a single example of the biblical jubal used adjectivally, ever, and I'll concede that you may have a point. Until then, "Nerd's" OED definitions are all we need. They answer the question easily, and from proven usage. All the biblical jubal arguments are based on pure speculation unsupported by evidence of any kind.

By all means disagree; but do offer real evidence based on actual usage. Until someone can do that, I'd consider the conversation closed.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:54 PM

Yes, I am a Nerd. But being a Nerd does preclude being right...often just the opposite!


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Uncoknight
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

I grew up attending a Primitive Baptist Church where my grandfather preached. We sang a cappela from a hymnbook called "The Good Old Songs". Many of the pieces in this book go back to the time of Isaac Watts but in this collection few few authors, if known, were credited. One of the hymns, titled "Watchman", had a word that I have wondered over many times through the years : "Then the jubil trumpet sounding shall awake from earth and sea all the saints of earth now sleeping clad in immortality." I always assumed this was a dialect word, short for jubilant, but never knew. Some of my friends--Hicks-- from Beech Creek in the next county used the words "jobal" hunter in their variant of the ballad about the wild boar. This was their hearing of the word "jovial". In Appalachian dialect, which derives mainly from the traditional speech of Great Britain, "o's" and "u"s are frequently substituted for each other as in "bumb" for "bomb", "dunkey" for "donkey", etc. although the o in ""jobal" is long o.
    I doubt whether the singers of these songs over the generations put any worry or special significance as to this words meaning although it is very interesting to me to learn so much fascinating history and possible origins to "jubal".


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:12 AM

From the 'Dictionary of Archaic Words,' compiled 1850.

'Jub. A slow trot.'   So, maybe, hounds that are followed on foot, as are beagles?


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 04:02 AM

I agree totaly with jubile being the meaning (after all it's not a deep-seated psychological tale from fox's POV), and would like to point out another reason why the Biblical Jubal is a dead-end. The etymology has nothing to do with running, but probably means the ram. Reffers to him being the head of his clan, not running or joy or the Devil.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:13 AM

I appreciate that this thread is nearly six years old, but I felt moved to contribute.

I suggest that the word 'jubal', in this song, is a mis-hearing at some time in the past of the word 'jubilant', which:

a) is very close to 'jubal',
b) is in common useage,
c) scans,
d) makes more sense.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: C-flat
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM

In the Hebrew bible Jubal is described as "son of Lamech, ancestor of all who played the lyre and pipe"

Jubal hounds would be a good description of the howling-baying pack.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 10:40 AM

Max Johnson, why dismiss or oversimplify the discussion when parsing the possible meanings gives us so much more interesting material to consider? The words that sound like words that appeal to the modern ear may have possessed far different meanings in earlier iterations.

This was a great little thread, I enjoyed re-reading it, though I am saddened to see that several participants are either gone (Malcolm) or gone missing (TheBigPinkLad).

SRS


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 12:05 PM

Stilly River Sage.

I'm not sure in what way I might have dismissed the discussion. I certainly made an attempt to find a solution on planet Earth. If my 'oversimplification' has temporarily derailed your train of thought then I sincerely apologise.

Max.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 02:21 PM

"Jovial hounds" is another possible mispronunciation, alongside "joyful".


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 02:37 PM

Guest Max -- thanks for wading into the treacherous waters of a Mudcat lyrics discussion to venture a guess (especially as your take on "jubal hounds" is so close to mine)!


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 06:26 PM

Why do we dismiss the Romany "jougal" for "dog"?. It would be a plausible reverse order for "hound-dog". Do we know whether Mr Pole was Romany or traveller?


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 05:28 AM

'Jougal' - of course! Mr Pole was a fan of The Magic Roundabout!

How did we miss it?!


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

right, this is a bit tongue in cheek.
But the first thing that comes to mind when i hear Jubal is the Handel aria ' Oh had I Jubal's Lyre, or Miriam's tuneful voice' (if I've got it right.
So the author was a member of the Huddersfield Choral Soc. (now someone will tell me it wasn't collected in H!)


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 03:35 PM

Coincidental-
Looking at breeders' records I found a West Highland White Terrier whose name was Sir McDuff of Jubal. The name is also used by a breeder of Afghan hounds.


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Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM

Here in the UK only one breeder may use a given prefix or suffix (eg Lokmadi Highspot, or Hurwyn Calypso at Lokmadi) so the breeder (or in some cases owner) of the Westie and the Afghans should be the same.


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