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BS: What did Jesus look like?

Little Hawk 28 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM
jaze 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 PM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 12:13 AM
Nerd 29 Jan 05 - 12:19 AM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM
LadyJean 29 Jan 05 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 29 Jan 05 - 01:09 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 AM
Georgiansilver 29 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM
robomatic 29 Jan 05 - 05:31 AM
Cluin 29 Jan 05 - 07:36 AM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 08:15 AM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 08:30 AM
*daylia* 29 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,sandra in sydney 29 Jan 05 - 08:57 AM
Bobert 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 09:50 AM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 09:57 AM
Georgiansilver 29 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 11:22 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM
Uncle_DaveO 29 Jan 05 - 11:34 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 29 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM
Bill D 29 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,I'm a believer 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,heric 29 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM
Weasel Books 29 Jan 05 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 29 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM
mack/misophist 29 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,punfolkrocker 29 Jan 05 - 02:40 PM
Megan L 29 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM
Megan L 29 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM
Sttaw Legend 29 Jan 05 - 03:10 PM
Azizi 29 Jan 05 - 04:06 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM
Bert 29 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM

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Subject: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM

I got the idea to ask this because of something Martin said on that other thread...

So, what did Jesus look like? Well, he is usually seen depicted in the art of a European-based culture, which naturally co-opts him and makes him look European...often with blue eyes even! That seems unlikely to me.

My guess is that he looked like most other Judeans in that part of the Middle East at that time, meaning...he was probably dark-eyed, with dark hair, and a brown skin tone. That's my guess. He probably looked like an Arab, a Lebanese, or a Sephardic Jew. A semite, in other words.

What do you think?

As for you who don't believe he even existed...just sod off and start your own thread about whatever subject you like to talk about! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: jaze
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 PM

I would imagine your're probably right, Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:13 AM

My brother.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:19 AM

He looked a bit Jew-ish, as Beyond the Fringe would say.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM

Yes, but all Jews don't look alike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:59 AM

I would suspect that he looked like Rembrandt's paintings of him. The Dutch painter lived in a Jewish area, and, apparently, used his neighbors for models.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:09 AM

I think he looked just like any guy you might run into in the marketplace, or maybe down at the seaside fishing. Anyone you might expect to find throwing the money-changers out of the temple, or chatting about his spiritual beliefs.
Come to think of it, he probably looked quite a bit like you, Little Hawke.
Not that I expect you to die for my sins of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 AM

The Bible gives no specific description of what Jesus Christ
looked like, and there are no known images of Him in existence,
such as there are, for example, for Roman emperors (e.g. Emperor
Nero), or actual "faces from the past" that can be seen with the
Egyptian Mummies.

There are however some very good indications of what He did,
and did not, look like -

There was nothing unusual about His appearance. Throughout the
Gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, people made no
mention of something different about how He looked.

If anything, people wondered how such an ordinary-looking man
could be The Savior. John The Baptist would not have known that
his cousin was The Savior (their mothers, Mary and Elizabeth
were related) unless an angel had told him just before Jesus'
baptism at age 30 (John 1:33).

The mob that came to arrest Him The Fateful Night could not
tell Him apart from Peter or John or any of the others - Judas
Iscariot had to actually point Him out (Matthew 26:47-49)
and even then Jesus had to identify Himself, twice, to those
who demanded Him by Name as He stood right in front of them
in the bright light of their torches (John 18:3-9).

Jesus had a natural, rugged appearance. He did hard outside
physical labor, with Joseph in Nazareth, until He was about
30 years old. Back then, the building trade involved very
strenuous physical labor with heavy stone and lumber, without
any sort of power tools or mechanical digging equipment that
are in use today.

Unlike many religious pictures that portray Jesus as a pale,
skinny, effeminate man with long hair and wearing a flowing
white or pink robe, Christ could have looked nothing like that.

His appearance would definitely have been that of a tanned,
muscular, physically-fit young man dressed in durable and
practical clothing - which made Him indistinguishable from
the "blue-collar" Fishermen who were with Him when He was
arrested. The prophet Isaiah confirms His ordinary appearance -

"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in
His appearance that we should desire Him. He was despised and
rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and
we esteemed Him not.

Many portray Jesus Christ as having long hair. Hair styles
and socially-acceptable length have varied tremendously over
the ages, sometimes very short, sometimes very long.

Most religious artists portray Christ with long hair. The man
in the Shroud of Turin also has long hair. But did Jesus have
long hair?

The apostle Paul (see On The Road To Damascus) actually saw
Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 9:1). Paul, a trustworthy man
who wrote a large part of the New Testament, knew exactly what
The Lord looked like.

In 1 Corinthians 11:14, Paul wrote, "if a man has long hair,
it is a disgrace to him." It's quite unthinkable that Paul
would have made such a statement if Jesus Christ had long hair.
How could anything about The Lord be called disgraceful?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM

"The Famous and most Memorable Works of Josephus" describes his mental greatness and his ability to "capture" with words. No physical description is given of Him so he must not have stood out from the average man of that area in those days. Human nature dictates that if he had looked different, it would have been documented. So your description, LH would seem to be accurate...Maybe we will find out one day eh??
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:31 AM

I've always thought of him looking a bit like Steve Guttenberg, only taller.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:36 AM

Norm Abram of the "New Yankee Workshop".


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:15 AM

Why his father of course!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:30 AM

The African American church that I attended in my chidhood & youth always portrayed Jesus as a white man with long flowing brown hair..

The fact that there were/are no photos of God didn't stop me from visualizing Him as this statesman looking White man with long staight white hair & beard who sat on a throne upon the clouds with a huge book in his hands. I believed that in this book God wrote down the actions of every individual each moment of every day...

But when I was approaching college age I became more of a free thinker. One Sunday it was my turn to make a presentation on the Bible for the combined Sunday School classes. I decided to talk about "How we think of Jesus". I'm sure folks-including my mother who was then the Superintendent of our church's Sunday School thought that I was going to talk about the positive character traits of Jesus and exhort children & adults in attendance to model themselves after him...But instead

I said that there are no records of Jesus' appearance [now I know that may not be true] and there are certainly no records of what God looks like [true]. I then asked the question why do we as African Americans always picture Jesus and God as White? Why don't we think of Jesus as looking like this- At that point I asked I held up a phototograph of a handsome middle aged Black man that was taken from the cover of an Ebony magazine.

Needless to say the disapproval was so strong you would have thought I had held up a pornographic phototograph...

Years passed ..Years passed..and I find myself here on Mudcat making similar observations about what Jesus looked like..

See this excerpt about Jesus and others from

www.faem.com/books/blaksec1.htm


"[Jesus] according to the Bible, called the "Lamb" of God, with kinky hair compared with lamb's wool, feet the color of burnt brass (Rev. 1:14,15) and a likeness resembling jasper and sardine stone (sard/sardonyx), which are commonly "brownish" stones. (Rev. 4:3). ALL the earliest pictures and statues of Christ depict him as Black. In the catacombs of Rome where images of Jesus appear for the first time, black paintings and statues of Christ, the Madonna, Apostles and Biblical characters still survive from early Christian worship. The most sacred icons of the Catholic Church and also, prominent cathedrals in Europe are the Black Madonna and Christ child. In the British Museum, a gold coin struck in the time of the Roman emperor Justinian II, shows Christ with tightly curled, wooly hair. J.A. Rogers reports in Sex and Race Vol.1, p.292 that the Cambridge Encyclopedia Co. says that this coin places beyond doubt "the fact that Jesus Christ was a Negro."

Like Christ, ALL founders of world religions on ALL continents were BLACK and "woolly" haired, including the earliest gods.
Buddha was Black, that's why his woolly hair is always shown in small tight curls, pepper corn style or corn rows. Early sculptures of him clearly reveal his Aficoid features ...wide nose and full lips. So was Zaha of Japan, Fu-Hsi of China, Tyr of Scandinavia, Quetzalcoatl of Mexico, Sommonacom of Siam and Isis of Egypt and Rome. Krishna of India was "blue-black," in fact his means black, or the Black One! (see dictionary). He is always portrayed with blue or blue-black skin. Mohammed, founder of Islam was also 'bluish' in color with 'frizzy' hair. His grandfather was "black as the night." Moses was Black according to Mohammedan tradition and early portraits. His hand would turn white, then back to his "other flesh" when God wished to give him a sign. (Ex. 4:6,7). Lao Tse of Taosim was "a divine incarnation ...born of a virgin black in complexion and as beautiful as jasper." (Thorton: History of China Vol.1) The chief title of Osiris, the greatest of Egyptian gods means "Lord of the Perfect Black." He was also called "The Great Black," similar to Krishna. The chief title of Zeus, greatest of the Greek gods was "Ethiops" which means "burnt faced." Early statues of gods in India have Africoid features and woolly or locked hair. The name of the Mexican god Ixtliton means "blacked faced." In fact, many ancient Mexican gods are portrayed jet black with Africoid features. Once banned, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves reveals remarkable knowledge on this subject, along with Anacalypis by Godfrey Higgins and African Origins of the Major World Religions by Amon Saakana, ed. Many Bible stories are borrowed from ancient Egypt, Sumer and India, as documented in John Jackson's Christianity Before Christ."

end of quote

It is now not uncommon in certain African American circles to folks say that Jesus was Black and had hair like lamb's wool. This descriptor even shows up in literary works such as Alice Walker's "The Color Purple'.

Though I detest the N-word, I'll retain it this quote:

"Somewhere in the bible it say Jesus hair was like lamb's wool, I say. Well, say Shug, if he came to any of these churches we talking bout he'd have to have it conked before anybody paid him any attention. The last thing niggers want to think about they God is that his hair kinky..."
end of quote...ALice Walker, The Color Purple


Hopefully Mudcat responses to these 'theories' will be a bit better than it was to my 1963 Sunday School presentation at Union Babtist Temple Church, Atlantic City, New Jersey.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM

During his "earth-walk" 2000 years ago, I bet Jesus looked like any other Semitic man.

BUt today, Jesus appears however one expects him to appear. He's absolutely Perfect and Beautiful and just RADIANT with Joy and Love and Light!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,sandra in sydney
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:57 AM

Some years ago I was told by a man who who had studied theology at a Catholic college that in the 17th & 18th century females of negotiable virture modelled for Jesus in religious pictures.

I'm not sure where he found this, but he said it took him back to his schooldays when the Brothers pointed to images of Jesus to inspire the boys into living holy lives like the long haired sweet faced "boy" in the picture.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 AM

Hey, ain't he the black guy with the W (with diagonal line thru it) button?...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:12 AM

The natural thing to do is to paint Jesus looking like someone from your part of the world. That means in Ethiopian icons (here or here) he'd look Ethiopian, in Italy he'd look Italian, in Germany, German, and so forth.

That got distorted the last few centuries by the fact that White Europeans have been swanning around pushing people around, and that included imposing a totally inappropriate kind of iconography.

It'd be a pity, now that that kind of rubbish is started to be shucked off, and churches in Africa and India are using images of Jesus looking African or Indian or whatever, if instead some kind of antiquarian imagery, trying to look historically accurate, were to be imposed on people instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:50 AM

He looked like a big girls blouse with his long hippy hair.

At least thats what my old dad used to say every saturday morning
he dragged me to the barbers for a short back and sides.

hmmm.. perhaps it would be fun to see 21st cent. revisionist right wing christian paintings of a new cleaner cut Jesus
in smart well pressed and starched robes
and a precisely cropped military marine style haircut.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:57 AM

There is a fine but meanignful distinction between Azizi's post and MofH's.

In Azizi's (one might presume) that he starts from the premise that Jesus actually did look like something, maybe not what has been traditionally assumed, but something. And, starting with that presupposition, Azizi's post begins to "sus out" what Jesus may have looked like -- attempting to deduce from legend and historical record.

In Mof H's condescending (to Christians) post, he starts with the presuppositional that Jesus is but myth, therefore it doesn't matter how one might portray him. If Jesus was not, in fact, an historical human being, then what's the harm in charcteriziing him however you want to? -- as long as it isn't Westerners doing the (mis)characterization *wink-and-a-grin*.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM

*daylia* your observation of how He looks now is both accurate and beautifully described. Thank you.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

In Mof H's condescending (to Christians) post, he starts with the presuppositional that Jesus is but myth, therefore it doesn't matter how one might portray him. If Jesus was not, in fact, an historical human being, then what's the harm in charcteriziing him however you want to?

You mistake my point-of view rather radically, I'm afraid. I think anyone seeking advice about what kind of church art to have in a new Catholic church in Africa, for example,would get advice in keeping with what I wrote there.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

Jim,

Thanks for being able to see that difference in approaches...

However, if I may take a friendly exception to one thing you said:

You wrote that I had started from the premise that "Jesus actually did look like something, maybe not what has been traditionally assumed"...

I would suggest that the key word here is "traditionally".

What is traditional for one people may not traditional for other people. If we replaced the word 'traditional' with 'customary' which I believe it often means, I would agree that it has long been customary in the United States to portray Jesus as a White man with long brown hair...

However,just because this is the customary practice [in the United States] does not mean that this how the historical Jesus actually looked.

Also, [and this is a far less important point], maybe because 'male'is the default gender on Internet discussion forums, probably because Westerners are unfamiliar with my name {though this Swahili name is rather well known elsewhere as it is Arabic version Aziza"}, and certainly because there aren't any visuals of posters as blogging, I would like to note that I am a "she" and not a "he".

therefore I signing this as
Ms. Azizi

:O))


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM

I also agree with Daylia's notion of how Jesus (as a spiritual beging, that is...) looks now, given that the spirit of a great being has an altogether more shining and beautiful appearance than a physical embodiment does. Having actually seen such a being, I can testify to that. However, I was speculating as to what Jesus looked like as a physical being back then, which is a different matter.

Lots of interesting comments here, and a few funny ones too. :-)

Regarding Guest's opinion about the "long hair" issue...and yes, I have heard that particular quote from Paul in Corinthians any number of times: "if a man has long hair,
it is a disgrace to him."

It was routinely used by various fundamentalist assholes back in the 60's and 70's to harass and criticize young men with "long hair".

Well, here's my take on it. Number 1, Paul said a whole bunch of weird stuff, and I don't take it all as gospel by any means. Number 2, how "long" is "long" in a given culture? Most human cultures (but not all) have customarily tended toward women having longer hair than men for some reason. So, in medieval times, a man might have had hair that was shoulder length or just past the shoulders, while a woman might have had hair that was all the way down to her belt. In that case, the man would be seen to have "short" hair, and the woman "long" hair.

But to a 20th century Christian North American dressed in a suit and a red tie, a man's hair is "long" if it's more than 2 inches long!

I think that Paul was probably stating that a man's hair should be shorter than a woman's. A woman's hair, in Paul's time was probably typically waist-length, having never been cut at all or just the ends trimmed. A man's hair was probably shoulder lenght or thereabouts.

They would both have "long hair" by 1955 North American terms, but NOT by their own terms. Only the woman would have long hair by their cultural terms.

Got it?

So take your "long hair" BS and buzz off, anonymous one. There is no dishonor in a man having hair longer than what you happen to be culturally accustomed to, and if Jesus' hair wasn't all the way down to his waist, then I propose that it wasn't "long" in the terms of his day and age.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM

You can find a somewhat cartoony but responsible picture at this site.
Press "gallery" and then "Jesus." The artist's description is well worth reading.

http://www.reportret.info/


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:22 AM

HA HA! Azizi!! I am officially due one "Jimminina" from you! Sorry I didn't note the sari!

(and I don't disagree with your "traditional"/"customary" point.)

MofH,

With all the commas removed thus...

"It'd be a pity, now that that kind of rubbish is started to be shucked off, if using images of Jesus looking African or Indian or whatever, were to be imposed on people instead."

...the meaning is opposite of the way I took it. If that's the case, I agree with you and apologize for the mis-characterization I put to your post!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

I am really amazed by that quote from the book which proposes to prove that ALL the great religious founders in ancient history were black!!!! LOL! That has got to be the most ethnocentric viewpoint I've seen in print since maybe...Mein Kampf??? Or is it a joke?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:34 AM

Azizi quoted, with evident approval:


Like Christ, ALL founders of world religions on ALL continents were BLACK and "woolly" haired, including the earliest gods.


You mean like Mary Baker Eddy, or Joseph Smith, or L. Ron Hubbard?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

How about the Bab and Baha'Ullah? (they were the founders of the Bahai religion in the 1800's, and they were Persians) Then there's Joseph Smith (Mormon). Was he black too? LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

About fifteen years ago one of my freshman English students turned in a theme arguing that Jesus was Black. Her evidence was much like the above. It was a bad theme, unsystematically argued and full of poor diction, bad grammar, the usual for poorly prepared college kids.

When I failed the paper, the presentational errors corrected and explained, and with as encouraging a comment as I could think of, the student insisted the real problem was that I didn't believe Jesus was Black, so I was too bigoted to grade her fairly. But she did offer to "turn the other cheek" and not complain to my chairman. I urged her to do whatever she thought was right.

The point is that one shouldn't discuss religion unless one is prepared for some genuine give and take.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

To all who might wonder,

My post wasn't a joke..

The quote was given to provide a different perspective than the Euro-centric statements about Jesus' looks that dominate most discussions on this subject [and they are legion].

You notice that I did refer to the excerpted quote as theories and not as actual facts.

I certainly don't agree with the person writing that essay that EVERY religious leader who ever lived was considered Black or would have been considered Black by the USA's extremely wide criteria..

In sharing that quote, I wanted to broaden the discussion by pointing out that there are some historical indicators that suggest that Jesus was certainly far from White.

And especially given the wide definition of who is considered to be 'Black' in the United States if Jesus looked like those in his area, I do believe that most people in the USA would consider him to be part of the 'Black race'...

And not so far way back when, he wouldn't have been allowed to sit in the front of the bus.

Also, I must apologize for not including the Biblical chapter and verse for the 'hair like lamb's wool' quote. If someone has the exact quote, I'd appreciate it being posted.

Also, I agree with the position that how Jesus looked is of FAR less importance than the beauty of his spirit.. I feel that anyone's physical appearance is far less important than the quality of her or his soul, personality, and mind.

Also Jim:
LOL!
not a sari...rather on days when I want to dress ethnic, a Senegalese dress or Nigerian loose blouse, long skirt, sash, and head wrap...Yes I know that I said my name is Swahili and that KiSwahili isn't 'traditionally' spoken in those nations...

but-besides creating our own things, us African Americans have a way of taking what we want from different cultures, mixing it up, and making it our own.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

all one needs to do is ask Google

But face it...anyone wandering around what is now Israel or Jordan 2000 years ago would have certain features...ask the anthropologists what the basic characteristics were.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

Yes, I realize that you were simply presenting a different perspective. No problem.

I thought, though, that it was a truly spectacular example of where enthnocentric thinking can lead! Ethnocentricity is often based on a sense of having been unfairly treated or victimized in the past.

Thus, I have seen quite notable ethnocentricity displayed by some Afro-Americans, some White supremacists, some Nazis, some Jews, some Native Americans, some Muslims, and so on...there are always certain individuals whose extreme sense of grievance leads them to become fanatical proponents of their particular tribe, nation, group, or race...at the expense of other people's rights and dignity.

It's not a pretty thing to see, and it leads to trouble.

Guest, Guy Who Thinks - it was your black student who was the bigoted one, and severely so! As someone who wholeheartedly supported integration and the achievement of racial equality in the 60's, I am very saddened to see what extremely negative attitudes some misguided members of the black community have adopted as a result of their own sense of having been victimized by society. They became the very thing they claimed to be against in the process of resisting it...racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,I'm a believer
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

..did Jesus wear his sandals with or without socks ?
did he ever wear a hat ?
and what would he have put on if it was raining or snowing ?

my mum says I should always follow Jesus's example..
so what ought I to wear in winter if he wore sandals all year round ???


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

prudent footwear. Your mother was oh so wise. You seem to be a wise guy yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

I prayed on this last night, and had a dream. It was Kramer!
Wearing shoes with no socks in cold weather.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:46 PM

It doesn't really matter, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but just look at the facts we have. (also excuse the use of Negroid, if anyone can suggest a better term I will gladly use it)
He was definitely not black. Not northern European or Mongoloid either. A Semite. Like the basic protoype seen in Israel/Palestine, and Syria (ommiting the features that come from later people's, like the Arabian, yes use of the word is intentional, Sudanese, Greek, Circassian and Turkic), and from an old Jewish family. One of the family traits was red, curly hair, and ruddy skin (see David) which came from Moab. Never a mention of Negroid anywhere.
Working outside for most of his life, he was probably browned and weathered. Presumabely bearded, as any respectable and observant Jew would be (there had begun to be lapses, but the Galilee was more conservative). Skullcap too (even the Greeks tended to wear felt headcovers)
Hair would cover the nape for the most part, and there would be long side-locks.
You can say he was Negroid all you like, but it's as preposterous as saying he was Nordic. Just look at where he came from.
Nowadays there are plenty of Arabs with Negroid characteristics, but these are mostly descendants of 17/18/19/20th c. Sudanese slaves in the Bedouin society.
The common depiction of Christ in Western art, is actualy based on the face of Zeus (from the statue that was one of the 7 wonders).
I just hope nobody takes offence from anything written here, as none was intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Back in the old days the Kootenai Indians would cut their hair short as a sign of mourning. "Short" was shoulder length, or for deep mourning, earlobe length; both pretty long for the modern suit-wearinng man.

Back in the hippie days I remember reading that Jesus didn't have long hair, and I thought "But he has long hair _now_ -- look at the pictures." The exception was in Billy James Hargis' publications, where Jesus had a white-sidewall cut.

Would it make a difference to any of y'all if He looked like a darker Bill Clinton? What if He loked like Osama, who is from the same neck of the woods? Or the Pope? Or Tommy Franks or Tom Hanks?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Discover magazine did a short piece on this a couple of years ago. The average male of that place and time was short, stocky, and had curly reddish black hair; probably cut at earlobe length. The only surprises were a broad short nose and thick lips.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

Charlton Heston? No, that was Moses.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:40 PM

this site possibly covers most options;

http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/?city_id=phx


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

Azizi tried to find the bible verse for you but these were the only three refering to hair colour i could find othere than looking for disease in leviticus :)


Song of Solomon 5:11
His head is purest gold; his hair is wavy and black as a raven.

Revelation 1:14
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Daniel 7:9
"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

Meant to include this in last post
Man walks among us


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:10 PM

Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:06 PM

Thank you Megan L., I appreciate your help.

It may be the verse from the book of Daniel that Alice Walker and others based the belief on that Jesus had hair like lamb's wool.

Not being a Biblical scholar, I can't speak further about the origin of this belief. But I can say that it is definitely part of African American folk culture as witnessed by Guest, Guy who thinks' African American student who fifteen years ago wrote a poorly prepared paper on the subject. it's too bad that student was so poorly prepared and then blamed her teacher and racism...I don't condone that. But I'd love to read a paper on this subject that wasn't poorly prepared-or one that didn't exaggerate to make its points.

In hindsight, if I hadn't been so eager to jump into this discussion because of my memories of introducing this topic to my church as a youth, I probably would have chosen an Internet source that wasn't absolutist in its assertions that all founders of religions were Black.

Certainly all founders of religions weren't Black. Yet the exaggerations of this particular article that I quoted above can't negate ALL the points that its makes.

However, in my opinion, it would be outside the scope of this particular thread to debate or discuss those points.

Ms. Azizi
[who lives & learns and is not afraid to admit a mistake]


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

The Jesus who appears in Spirit...in a vision...could very well look quite different from the physical man, Jesus, who was crucified in Judea 2,000 years ago. I think that point is well worth considering when discussing such a passage from Revelations...or the one from Daniel. Those are spirit beings that are being described, not the physical man, Jesus.

And the one in the Song of Solomon, again, is a spirit being, I'd say.

One would not expect a spirit being to look just the same as a physical being. At least, I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

He was from the Middle East. Probaly looked something like an Iraqi.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

You did a bit more than "take the commas out", Jim...

The point is, there's a historical Jesus, and obviously enough, as a Palestinian Jew, he'd have looked like a Palestinian Jew.

But when it comes to religious images , the relevant thing isn't givinh a picture of what he actually looked like, but providing a way of bringing him home to worshippers as someone who is close to them, a brother, a son. That's what the Incarnation is about, when you get down to it. So the best way to paint him is portray him is like that, not as someone who looks like they belong in a distant country, some kind of tourist.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

There ya go. :-) Somebody tell George Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:33 PM

well then, MofH, I again disagree. Christianity, at its best, is not a construct of human imagination. If I thought that it was I would not include myself as a Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM

Did I say anything like that? We use our imagination, along with all our other facilities to try to help us appeciate and make sense of of the things that aren't in front of our eyes, but that's something else completely.

You really think that religious painters through all those centuries, painting pictures of nativities in Flemish cowsheds and Italian barns and all that, with everyone wearing contemporary local costumes, thought that they were showing things the way they actually were back in First Century Palestine? (For example.) Except that, getting down to what matters, and leaving aside the superficial stuff, that is precisely what they were doing.


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