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BS: What did Jesus look like?

Donuel 22 Mar 08 - 09:08 AM
Donuel 21 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM
Amos 21 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM
Donuel 21 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 21 Mar 08 - 09:06 AM
Slag 21 Mar 08 - 07:26 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Mar 08 - 05:49 AM
Slag 21 Mar 08 - 12:08 AM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 08 - 12:19 PM
Ruth Archer 20 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 08 - 09:56 AM
Uncle_DaveO 20 Mar 08 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,PMB 20 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM
Donuel 20 Mar 08 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,PMB 20 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Mar 08 - 03:30 AM
Slag 20 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM
Little Hawk 19 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM
Riginslinger 19 Mar 08 - 09:19 PM
Little Hawk 19 Mar 08 - 08:19 PM
Slag 19 Mar 08 - 06:46 PM
Donuel 19 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM
Riginslinger 19 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,sinky 19 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM
Bee 19 Mar 08 - 04:36 PM
Riginslinger 19 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Mar 08 - 03:41 PM
MaineDog 19 Mar 08 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,dianavan 19 Mar 08 - 03:14 PM
Riginslinger 19 Mar 08 - 02:45 PM
Thompson 18 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,meself 18 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM
PoppaGator 18 Mar 08 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 17 Mar 08 - 04:26 PM
skarpi 17 Mar 08 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,lox 17 Mar 08 - 07:06 AM
Thompson 17 Mar 08 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,PMB 17 Mar 08 - 04:46 AM
Azizi 16 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM
gnu 16 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,lox 16 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM
gnu 16 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Al no cookie 16 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM
Riginslinger 16 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM
Cassy 16 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Mar 08 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,meself 15 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM
mg 15 Mar 08 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,bones 15 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:08 AM

I have done about 6 portraits of Jesus. some were the day before Easter, a month before and the night before.
Many people have depicted the baby Jesus but I have never ever seen the teenage Jesus done in asny format.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM

My son sees moldy bread.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

Jesus, Donuel!! Your pattern recognition circuits have been fried by that vegetation you've been smoking. I just see a sawed rock!

There is a reasonable school of thought would argue that Jesus didn't "look like" anything, because he is a composite fictional amalgamation of bits and pieces of ancient mythologies and legends put together. OF course, this would be an unacceptable concept to even think about if you had invested emotion and spiritual energy and sweat and adulation into forwarding the legend. But the possibility needs to be faced that what we have been worshipping, lo, these many centuries is actually, strictly speaking, a figment.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Jesus in a rock:

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc1.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc3.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc4.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc6.jpg


Sepia tones only
http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:06 AM

I sawed some iron stone in half and Behold

the face of Christ emerged.

alert the mudia !!!!!!!!!

I will show it only to those who believe

The face of Christ, with a rather long beard, is looking at Mary who appears wistful.

I could seriously make a big ebay bruhaha









why didn't he get a close shave every morning like we do?????


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:26 AM

And point well taken. The mystery cults and various cults of Jesus all vied for supremacy. I remember seeing a photograph of an early depiction of Jesus on a catacomb wall in which he carried a wand! Whether it was a symbol or an agency of magic, only that early cult knew but the message for us today is that there was really no uniformity in the early years of the Christian Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:49 AM

I realise that this was the topic - my point is simply that it's not even worth speculating about, when the available information that exists about Jesus is limited by the exclusion of a number of texts.

Not sure about the "Superman comic books" gospels, but there were certainly some gospels which challenged the supremacy of St Peter as Christ's choice for the first pope, proposing Mary Magdalene instead. These were taken sufficiently seriously to spawn Magdalene cults in the first centuries after Christ's death.

BTW, I'm not going all Da Vinci Code here - I've never even read it, though I remember thinking that the book that spawned it, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, was a thouroughly entertaining (though completely preposterous) read.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:08 AM

Ruth, et al, It is called hermeneutics: an internal logical agreement which unites certain writings and excludes others. A lot of the "infancy gospels" were like the Superman funny books of their day. They were not taken seriously. Others, such as the Book of Enoch are a little more problematic. Some of the writers of both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament clearly believed that they were inspired by God to write what they wrote, as this is what they tell us from their writings! Other writers may not have felt they were divinely inspired but enlightened readers have believed they were. The Council of Nicaea sought God's leading as they began to put together the various letters and writings which circulated through the Christian community of that time. Their "inspiration" is taken on faith as well as the coherent hermeneutic of the final compilation.

This does not mean that there is not a debate that still goes on today and the schools of higher criticism have done much to reconstruct the processes which brought about the New Testament as well as the Torah. That it was humans and the language of humans which inked this "Word of God" is undeniable and undenied! And yet it IS the Word of God to those who believe. Why couldn't God, being God, use the voice and the writings of men He inspired to deliver His word?

The topic was the appearance of Jesus which is undeclared in the Bible. If you want to write a book which asserts something different, write your own book and see how it fairs the test of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:19 PM

Yes, there is an absolute wealth of information to be found in writings about Jesus that were NOT included in the officially sanctioned Bible as we know it. That is a fact that seems to escape most people, both Christians and non-Christians. They spend their whole lives either using the Bible as the one and only true source about Jesus...or attacking it as the one and only false source about Jesus.

In either case they are missing the forest over one particular small grove of trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM

I dunno if this has been pointed out yet, but the accepted gospels are only a fraction of the earliest writings about Christ. The Gnostic Gospels, or Apocrypha, comprise another 20-odd "books" of writings. The 4 recognised gospels which comprise the New Testament were legitimised by the early church, but that doesn't make them any "truer" than the Gnostic Gopels, which hold a wealth of information about Jesus and his times. But the early Christian Spin Doctors threw out the bits they didn't like.

The idea that we have a prescribed set text of "facts" about Jesus in the New Testament is flawed, and without the Gnostic Gospels there can only ever be a fragment of the informaton and ideas which comprised the original Christian faith(s).


I was taught by nuns from southern Italy who used to tell us great stories about Christ's childhood that were drawn from the Apocrypha; I've been told since that they could have ben excommunicated for this. I remember the story in the English folk song The Bitter Withy being told to us, about Jesus drowning the princes who wouldn't let him play with them; and another about how Jesus used to carve birds in Joseph's workshop and breathe life into them, so that they flew around.

Of course, according to the accepted gospels, his frst miracle wasn't till Caana.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

Uncle Dave, you have described Budda. you might be on to something.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:56 AM

Good editorial correction PMB


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:26 AM

I think he was probably fat, bald, and with buck teeth.

I defy anyone to show that I'm wrong.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM

picturing the face of dieties is a sin... and rightly too!.

By the way, the Bamyan Buddhas were "only" about 1500 years old, not 3000- that would put them 500 years older than Buddha himself. And what would Gautama have said about them I wonder? Statues are objects, material possessions, and what goes up must come down?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:04 AM

Ossama Bin Laden released an audio tape yesterday vowing that recent European cartoons showing the face of Mohammed will not go unavenged.

The 13th century of the war between inconoclasts and anti-iconoclasts is still hanging on with the help of the some ol religion of peace Islam.

Religious nuts of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths have at one time or another decreed that picturing the face of dieties is a sin.

Eastern faiths have not run into this kind of intolerent idiocy to my knowledge. In fact they have always relied on the artful hand of man to demonstrate the various aspects of God. They have even depicted the aspect of the unknowable.
Of course to the muslim Taliban the 3,000 year old statues of Budda must be destroyed.

By the Way... the nose of the Great Sphinx was defaced by a muslim fundamentalist and not Napolean cannon fire as historic rumor implied.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

I don't kno nuffink about scheitgeist WLD, but I knew Jesus and you ain't no Jesus. First, those two fingers are supposed to be together and the other way round. Second, you not got no stingmata. Fourth, your heart aint on the outside. And tenth and lastly, you can't turn water into wine.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:30 AM

Why else d'you think Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote a musical about him - he recognised a kindred spirit. The Showbiz zeitgeist!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

So Chongo! You're a mystery to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

So true.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:19 PM

You just can't argue with success!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:19 PM

I have it on good authority that Jesus looked a lot like Weelittledrummer...to begin with. And he sounded a fair bit like Rinslinger too.

But he realized that that just wouldn't do!

So when he went to the Mystery Schools in Egypt, he got a complete makeover and training in posture, elocution, and presentation that radically altered his appearance into one far more suitable for his public role.

The rest is history. ;-)

Damn good thing about those fashion and posture consultants at the Mystery Schools. Without them, you'd all still be worshipping Baal!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:46 PM

Well, you knew I'd chime in at some point, didn't you? First let me say that some of you are never going to get it that Little Hawk is nothing but a figment of that crazy simian, Chongo. He baits you and you all go for it every time!

So, what did the Apostle Paul really look like? How about Saint John the Divine? Andy Devine? Zachariah? Daniel? Who really cares?

The Isaiah prophecy say that he (the Messiah) would be very ordinary in appearance. In the negative, he wouldn't be head and shoulders above the rest (contrast with the image of King Saul), he wouldn't be handsome and when the mobs were through with him, he wouldn't be recognizable at any rate (Isaiah 53)! If you think about it theologically, you would see that if it was the physical appearance of him that drew the crowds it would be a thing of the flesh, not of the spirit. It was the words of Jesus that both attracted and repelled people.

But! There is some internal evidence of his appearance. When he was seen in public the people hailed him as "Rabbi" that is, as a Jewish religious teacher and as such he must have worn the traditional garb and his hair and facial hair would have looked very much like the Hasidim of today, the orthodox Jews. If you don't want to view him as divine consider the accounts of how he escaped the Pharisees on several occasions. He just turned into the crowd and was lost from view. The perfect spy who looks like everybody and nobody at all.

I'm really tempted to sermonize but I will spare you. Just think about what the ones who nailed him to the cross looked like? I think they looked a lot like you and me.

Lastly for you who don't believe that Jesus was a historical reality; isn't it then all the more amazing how much this one non-existent person change the entire world? It also strikes me as to how the followers of this non-existent person were willing and able to face the most grim and torturous deaths rather than deny him. And among those who laid down their lives were those who claimed to have known him during his time upon the Earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM

There is a beautiful 2 part documentary on PBS titled the face of Jesus. The art alone is worth a viewing.

Semetic people are certainly bronze in color.

Don't believe a word Jorn said. He was the original sexist and racist "Republican" of the bunch. He sold out Mary in a heartbeat.
He may have been a closet gay jealous SOB for all I know.


White people are merely a recent adaptation to living in sunless/low sun level enviorments. The advantage is in being able to synthesize vitamin D in low light conditions by allowing more light to reach receptors in the skin. or so I've been told.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

"...the face unnaturally narrow and the forehead foreshortened, and ears lost."


                         You gotta wonder how he lost his ears, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM

like that hairy guy who plays rugby for france


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bee
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:36 PM

I noticed the Shroud of Turin came up.

http://www.sillybeliefs.com/shroud.html

Quote: "There are serious anatomical problems with the image. Jesus' face, body, arms, and fingers were unnaturally thin and elongated (like figures in Gothic art), his left forearm was longer than his right, and his right hand is too long. The man is impossibly tall, being 6ft 8in (2.03m). The head is disproportionately small for the body, the face unnaturally narrow and the forehead foreshortened, and ears lost. The front and back images, in particular of the head, do not match up precisely, and the back image is around 2 inches (5cm) longer than the front. The back of the head is wider than the front of the head. The Shroud image is, in fact, so unusually very long and narrow that one pro-Shroud pathologist suggested that Jesus must have had Marfan's syndrome!"

So, if the Shroud is authentic, then Jesus was a skinny giant with a small, misshapen head, and one short arm, who appeared to have a serious genetic disorder. You'd think one of the Apostles might have mentioned that in passing...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, look what Jeramiah Wright does to draw attention to himself!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:41 PM

Interesting...no stage outfit for the gigs then?

Most priests and preachers do something to draw the attention. I mean he wasn't a fool - he would have done what was necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: MaineDog
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:15 PM

It's clear that His appearance was quite unremarkable. Eealy in his career he was able to pass through a crowd and escape, when they were attempting to throw him over a cliff.
Later on, the Romans had to get Judas to betray him, because, again, He looked like any other Jew, He didn't stand out at all, even from the company of eleven disciples.
MD


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:14 PM

I think he looked like every mother's son.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:45 PM

"What did Jesus look like?"


                He might have looked like he was confused!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM

Of course there are two Jesuses - the young radical rabbi with his message of peace, intransigence and stringent Judaism, and Paul's reworking of his message as a messianic cult.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM

Looks like he's got a Bud in the other hand ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:50 PM

How 'bout this representation of Jesus?

http://www.joyfulnoiseletter.com/risen_Christ.asp

Yes, he still looks more European than he should, but other than that, this piece of artwork shows a fairly radical new take on his spirituality and, well, attitude. I kinda like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:26 PM

As a T-shirt I once saw said " Jesus had long hair (and look what happened to him)"

But seriously, we have nothing to go on, other than the reasonable assumption that he (sorry, He) was a Jew. Most of what we "know" about Jesus is faith and interpretation rather than verifiable historical fact, so what He actually looked like is really irrelevant.

How people represent Jesus is a different matter..


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:41 AM

!!!!!!!!(((((((( LOVE )))))))!!!!!!!! he was a man kind with a lot of love and care .


that is who he looked like a BIG LOVE , but some mankind full of greedy
and power blinded of that they they took it away from those who would follow hill , be able to give away from your self to help others
that is a gift we all have.

But Sadly in this world of man kind not everyone things like that.

atb Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:06 AM

Indeed,

It would seem in keeping with the character described in the Gospels and other associated texts that he wasn't glamorous.

We would probably describe his appearance as ugly by todays advertising industry standards.

And he certainly wouldn't have been bothered.

He never intended to appeal to vain people, being preoccupied with a more enduring beauty.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:02 AM

A programme a couple of years ago investigated this question, and tracked down a family who were apparently direct descendants of the people who lived in the area when Jesus lived there.

They were blue- and green-eyed, fair-skinned and brown-haired; the programme-makers then proceeded to show black-eyed, dark-skinned, black-haired people, voiceovering breathily: "So this is how Mary might have looked..."

In fact, since the Bible doesn't mention much about how he looked, he probably looked deeply ordinary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:46 AM

Which verse is that Azizi?

Of course, having been brought up a Catholic, I KNOW what Jesus looked like. He was really scary, he had his heart on the outside.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM

With regard to GUEST,FUNNY's comment of 07 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM {which I've just read}, the fact that that poster may or may not be funny {as in "ha ha" funny} or the fact that that poster writes in caps, does not negate the point that he or she made.

While I vehemently "reject and denouce" Guest Funny's use of the word racially offensive referent "Whitey", and his {or her} lumping all White people together as promoters of a White supremacy agenda, I believe that Funny's larger point may be valid.

Although I've no documentation to prove or disprove it, I've read that some Biblical scholars or some church congregations changed the Biblical verse which described Jesus' hair as being like lamb's wool to a translation that refers to Jesus' hair being the color of lamb's wool. If this was indeed done, the reason for this change in translation seems clear to me-hair like lamb's wool also can be a description of the hair texture of many people of African descent.
And those pastors/theologians-who may have had some overt or covert racism they had not acknowledged {or maybe they knew they were racist and that was a-okay with them}, wanted to remove that particular lamb's wool Biblical reference and any other Biblical reference that might confirm Jesus' physical appearance as being the same as or similar to the phsyical appearance of a Black or a Brown person.

Again, though I don't agree with the way Funny made his point, he did make a possible valid point.

**

just remember opinoins r like a butt hole we all have one.i respect yours if u respect mine ,fine now let go have a beer an talk about something else
-bones 15 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM]

Guest Bones, that's an interesting way of saying "different strokes for different folks" or "YMMV"-Your mileage may vary" and even if it does, people may or may not still be able to get along {with each other}, but they should at least try.

I say Amen! and I "second that emotion".

I hope that you continue expressing yourself on Mudcat. Or maybe you are doing so but I've just not recognized the name.

Be that as it may, let me say to you Bones, "Write On!"

:o)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM

Jesus comes in many ways. How he comes to you is what is important.

He came to me one Sunday morn, at about 4AM. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

There's a traditional catholic churcr in Leicester that I have been to that has various images of Jesus on the cross, they are all different, and all but one are white.

The last is a crucifix with a black man on it, with African features, hair and eyes.

The priests are your typical old Irish (stereotype would extend this to reactionary, racist etc) parish priests.

here is no issue about it, it is just there, above an altar, beside the door out of which the priests and altar boys process into and out of the Mass.



Seperately, I seem to remember something from RE in school where we read from a document in which an eye witness refers to getting a glimpse of Jesus over the heads of a throng of people, in which he is described as being dark with thin frizzy hair.

Hardly the most reliable or otherwise helpful historical source for you to digest, however meriting at least a brief mention in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

A tad pissed off in the end, I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Al no cookie
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

Oi vey.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

"What did Jesus look like?"


                He looked like he was trying to find the answers in all the wrong places.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cassy
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM

When I was a kid I was told he looked like this
... but then I never exactly looked like one of those kids either :)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 11:01 AM

no one's ever done him as a bald bloke.

So here's a good ecumenical point we can all agree on. he wasn't a baldy head.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Some folks say he looks a lot like me.



No, wait - that's Ol' Slewfoot ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: mg
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:00 PM

Controlling people always sooner or later come back to that all caps things, which one of them made up. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,bones
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

what does it matter ,he died for the whole world that is the greatest gift anyone can give.here is a point how many black serial killer r in prison? not many witch realy has nothing to do with anything.there r good people and thee r bad people just treat people the way u your self would like 2 b treated.from where jesus is from i would like 2 think he would have olive skin ,hair of wool.short hair.this has allways caused problems,just remember opinoins r like a butt hole we all have one.i respect yours if u respect mine ,fine now let go have a beer an talk about something else.


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