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BS: Mudcat Nastiness

GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 12:52 PM
mooman 29 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM
Bill D 29 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 29 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM
Amos 29 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM
Nerd 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 01:31 PM
Guy Wolff 29 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM
kendall 29 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM
artbrooks 29 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,marks 29 Jan 05 - 04:30 PM
Jim Tailor 29 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM
Guy Wolff 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM
Bobert 29 Jan 05 - 07:35 PM
Peace 29 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM
Leadfingers 29 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM
Guy Wolff 29 Jan 05 - 08:17 PM
robomatic 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM
Sorcha 29 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM
Pauline L 29 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM
Sorcha 29 Jan 05 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 29 Jan 05 - 11:44 PM
Teresa 30 Jan 05 - 02:18 AM
My guru always said 30 Jan 05 - 06:59 AM
greg stephens 30 Jan 05 - 07:43 AM
Leadfingers 30 Jan 05 - 08:01 AM
My guru always said 30 Jan 05 - 08:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM
Raedwulf 30 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM
Rapparee 30 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM
Cllr 30 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM
PoppaGator 30 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM
Strollin' Johnny 30 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM
wysiwyg 30 Jan 05 - 04:19 PM
Raedwulf 30 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM
Strollin' Johnny 30 Jan 05 - 04:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 05 - 04:56 AM
Strollin' Johnny 31 Jan 05 - 06:14 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 05 - 09:39 AM
wysiwyg 31 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM
Oaklet 31 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM
Amos 31 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM
Strollin' Johnny 31 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM
Pauline L 31 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM
PoppaGator 31 Jan 05 - 03:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 05 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,observer 31 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 05 - 06:14 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM
Azizi 01 Feb 05 - 11:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Frank 01 Feb 05 - 06:10 PM
Azizi 01 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM
wysiwyg 01 Feb 05 - 07:17 PM
Gypsy 01 Feb 05 - 10:25 PM
The Shambles 02 Feb 05 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,ragdall 02 Feb 05 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 02 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM
Guy Wolff 02 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM
Raedwulf 02 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM
GUEST 03 Feb 05 - 03:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Feb 05 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 03 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM
Azizi 03 Feb 05 - 10:41 PM
PoppaGator 04 Feb 05 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,Mrr 04 Feb 05 - 02:58 PM

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Subject: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM

I used to be a member but gradually stopped posting due to the constant sniping, sarcasm and general unpleasantness that seemed pervasive on this site. Recently I had to do some searches for lyrics, origins, etc. I have to say, the information on this site is wonderful but my God, if the people on this forum are representative of "folkies" in general it's no wonder the genre is dying out. New members who venture to ask a question are quickly driven away by sneering hatefullness i.e. "Why didn't you do a search...." which they may not have known about when the posted. Anyone who ventures an opinion is subjected to withering scorn and sarcasm - very seldom is the attitude taken of "While I respect your tastes, I don't share them and here's my view". I truly wish this forum could be moderated/censored. There's no excuse for the rudeness that goes on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:52 PM

I'm afraid to say this, but if you'd done a search on this, you'd have found enough crap to fertilise the Sahara desert.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: mooman
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM

There is no excuse for some of it you're right. I'd prefer to see a little more self-restraint and general respect for others though rather than moderation or censorship. I tend to now post less because of some of the general unpleasantness.

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM

Yes, but Life is not controllable. Forums may be. This forum is a good training ground for Life, because it's basically pretty wide-open. That's not a threat, it's an opportunity for growth.

You find what you look for. Look for what pleases you, and don't worry about the rest. There will always be problems in Life. That does not mean we need a "moderator" to control it all so that we can remain in our little chosen comfort zones all the time. If we did, we would not learn much of anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

" New members who venture to ask a question are quickly driven away by sneering hatefullness"

no, many adjust just fine to the fact that 'some' unfortunate remarks are made.....not all requests are met that way, by any means. I'm sorry if you had some bad experiences.

The forum IS slightly moderated, but it is so VERY hard to decide where to draw the line between true nastiness and just general careless replies. Remember the **FORUM** is not the problem...it consists only of hundreds of individuals, and the reply you get could be positive 87% of the time, depending on who happened to first reply.

It is best to point out specific places where you might be offended...and if YOU are a member, you could discuss it privately with the offender...if THEY are a member.

This place is like life...there are real people behind these posts. Try to shrug at the bad ones and enjoy the good ones...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM

Seems like several of the answers to my very first information requests on the Mudcat carried the implication that I was somehow lacking in either musical sophistication or mental acuity. So I got even by becoming a member. I'm still around but every one of the people who made those disparaging comments is long gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM

Ya know, I'm sorry, but I never experienced that. I got politely answered the first time I asked for lyrics, even though the song was in the DT, and I hadn't found it there because the search tool was tricky.

I don't consider sweeping generalizations about bad qualities to have any merit, because I know in any population there are a small number of folks who can make everything look bad by their negative attitudes, and its a survival skill to see through that and recognize the actual experience behind the sweeping generality is often one or two interactions.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

Yeah, I just got called a dope on another thread for saying something that was technically correct. I just don't take offense when I'm here, that's my secret. So what if some other catter calls me a fool? I'm secure enough to know when I have been a fool and when I haven't!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:31 PM

People are pretty much what you make of 'em -- anywhere you go. If you think they'll be friendly, well then friendly they will seem. And if you think that they'll be nasty, well then, that's the time to take out your big stick and beat the shit out of 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

I think its a bit like skiing. In the begining stay to subjects you love or respond to things you find reallly interesting.Stay off the mean slopes. THreads that start with nasty titles are not worth your time... I have worked very hard to only talk to people and subjects I am inspired by . The northumberland pipe comunity is just awsom and the same with the gang around Beverly and Hull. THere is still a ton of fun to have in here.I do miss some of the great music minds that lived here for years .If you are interested in open tunings for guitar for instance you can spend a month researching those threads . So thankfully there is a ton of music imformation in here . If you side step the small stuff there is a very large conciuosness to get . Good and optomistic hunting !! All the best , guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM

Tricky stuff, isnt it. theres sneering hatefulness and theres free expression. I fear I may bave been a hateful sneerer in the recent, what is wrong with being a purist thread.

|Certainly I stopped myself from contributing further to the debate, because my bitter words were doing nobody any good least of all myself.

Part of the problem is of course we are here on this page because we care passionately about the music. Of course that doesn't excuse you from caring about other peoples feelings.

However I've seen too many of my contemporaries who have given their lives to the folk club movement in England and ended up without even a living, to feel anything but anger at the kind of person who sneers and doesn't even know he's sneering at other peoples lifes' work.

all the best
Big Al Whittle - proud unrepentant member of anything goes brigade


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

Yes, there is a ton of good stuff and knowledge here but there are also many people who could contribute even more valuable info but who are put off by the rudeness and general unkind atmosphere. It's a shame. Like many, I use the information but don't contribute because I've had my hands slapped too many times. I don't mind being corrected or having someone disagree, but things escalate into personal attacks so quickly. It's just cyberspace so I don't dwell on it, nor do I visit Mudcat very often, and I suppose my possible contributions are no great loss considering the well informed folks who do post here, but how many other people who are gold mines of information have started to get involved, been ridiculed and insulted, and just said "Why bother".


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM

When I was a new member I asked a question and one of our most popular members jumped all over me. It was somewhat irritating, but it didn't destroy me, nor did it drive me away. We learn by making mistakes, not by doing something right. Besides, I figured I could kick his ass if called upon to do so.
Seriously, it is only a very few who make life unpleasant for newbies, and they certainly don't represent the majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Actually, the very vast majority of the people who "live" here are both polite and helpful. Then there are the others, probably less than half a dozen, who poison the atmosphere by their trolling for irate responses, profane, obscene or scatological comments, and juvenile rudeness. I guess that the best available option is to ignore them completely, but that can be hard. Many of us, myself included, find it difficult to resist being drawn into some sort of dialogue with them, and regret it afterwards. But please stay, or come back often...and it would help us to distinguish you from others if you would use some sort of consistent name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:30 PM

The very first time I posted a question here I was jumped on by ***** who asked "Who are you and what do you care." The response from other catters was to tell ***** to p*** off and to welcome me and help me with my request.
Please stay and contribute. Sure, you will find some thorns among the roses, but most differences of opinion are cogently argued points of view which will make you ponder even though you might not agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM

One helpful tip: What is polite to a fellow from the US is not the same thing as what is polite to a Brit (at least not the Brits represented here). No right or wrong implied -- just a difference that causes misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

Was "GUEST Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM" the same as "GUEST Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM"? Why not use a label for the thread just to keep things clearer, and show a friendly attitude?

I'm with Amos on this - my impression is that the overwhelming majority of responses to questions are polite and welcoming, with people falling over themselves to be helpful.

Sometimes you get the odd pillock who got out of bed the wrong side. Occasionally you get people who come on all paranoid because they talke a genuine question as soem kind of wind-up. And sometimes you get people who set out to stir things up, which isn't too hard to do...

But mostly it's pretty friendly here - I can only think of a couple of Mudcatters who can be more or less relied on to be nasty, and that's not bad for any community of this size, online or in the flesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

I am so thankful for the great friends I have made here . The musical subjects that have been brought up have really been of interest to me. I think one answer is that life takes effort. I am sorry we sometimes meet rude people but if your interested and motivated about the subjects you'll meet some life-time friends in here . THe musical adventures Ive had in person with other mudcatters has made a real difference in my life.There are to many to thank.
                   It dose start with coming forward and saying this is me ( Im so and so and Im real ) and I love blues or old time or whatever and then meeting over voices . Some are worth the work others side step .
                Guest your conplaint is very understandable and I would love for it to be nicer in here but life isnt that easy . You have brought up a good subject (again ) and i would PM you if you told us who you were. All the very best , Guy Wolff


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:35 PM

Well, this is my take on what's going down... Artists are the unfortunate ones who have the responsibility to try reflect what is going down around them. It's always been that way and always will...

I think what we are seeing in the "folk community" is just that...

We're not living in the 50's, ot even the 60's... There a lot of fundamentalism, dogmatism and polarization.

It's no wonder that folkies are a tad on the edge... To not be would be irrespnsible...

Jus' my take...

Wanna fight? Jus' kiddin'...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM

GUEST

From your perspective you are correct, of course. I would however call your attention to the number of times GUESTS (visitor) ask for information that requires some fairly serious digging, have their question(s) answered within a few hours, even have the info sent to them by e-mail, and not a word of thanks returned. That happens too. Does that mean that we stop trying to help people or ignore them in future? I don't think so.

Bruce M

PS That's a bit much coming from me, since I have only ever been able to find stuff for maybe 15 people. I'd guess that 1/3 of them didn't say a word of thanks. Hey, the others did, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

I have said it before and will no doubt have cause to say it again - If the regular sensible (Sometimes) people in here did NOT respond to the obvious wind up trolling , there would be a lot less nastiness !


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:17 PM

Leadfingers . I did not recognise this as trolling . Interesting . Thanks for the perspective . All the best , guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 PM

I think a response can be abrupt but helpful, such as "why not do a search in digiTRAD, HERE'S HOW". Most people here are knowledgeable and real helpful, and some of the long lines of information spawned by a simple inquiry of lyrics such as I experienced with Whisky in the Jar and an old Alaskan song "30 US on the Wall" are simply astounding.

And of course, it helps if you're persistent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:04 PM

I'll try and be nicer to people in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM

I just don't respond or post to the nastiness anymore. I think it's called Growing Up a Little Bit. I am sick of it, and as a result, don't do the threads much anymore, esp. the BS ones which I used to enjoy. Oh well. I'll stil do Lyric Searches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Pauline L
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

I agree that the great majority of exchanges on the Forum are civilized, even friendly, and frequently helpful. The few that are not, however, can be quite painful to thin skinned people like me. I find it reassuring to read that other people feel the way I do. I don't go for "Life is tough, so get tough." I go for, "Show a little respect."


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:01 PM

And, please please notice that you will not see quite a few of us in the nasty threads. I could name names, but I won't. I'll just say that I'm one of the Absent Ones. I am usually absent on the political threads too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:44 PM

Sorcha - I am glad to read that you "have mended your ways." However, in the past you have been one of the all-time worst "flamers" In particular to threads with a political bend.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle



A relative newly reformed and contrite contributor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Teresa
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:18 AM

Not to gloss over the nastiness, but I gained a little perspective after perusing Usenet newsgroups. Talk about the "Big, bad Internet". When I came back here, everyone seemed like pussycats by comparison.

Of course, we shouldn't aspire to be like the Usenet nasties.

In order to stay on Internet boards, I've learned that I must develop calluses. The bad words from people I don't know, I take with a grain of salt. The good words can only be encouraging.

The times I've been truly hurt, it's been from people I do know, since they know which buttons to push. And, of course, I've been on the opposite end of that equation, too. fortunately, in those cases, I can work it out with friends.

With trolls, it's best not to feed them. If someone says something and no one responds, it falls right off the board, especially in this format.

Teresa


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: My guru always said
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:59 AM

Isn't it strange though how stuff written in black & white can be interpreted in different ways by different people through no-one's fault really?

For instance Leadfingers posted above:

I have said it before and will no doubt have cause to say it again - If the regular sensible (Sometimes) people in here did NOT respond to the obvious wind up trolling , there would be a lot less nastiness !

This was quickly responded to by Guy Wolffe as follows:

Leadfingers . I did not recognise this as trolling . Interesting . Thanks for the perspective . All the best , guy

Now, call me naive, but I thought that LF's comment wasn't being specific about this thread, but on threads in general. But it seems from the response that Guy think's LF is talking about this discussion particularly. Or have I misunderstood?

Either way, isn't it easy to read the words wrong????


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:43 AM

GUEST who started this thread: could you be a little more specific, and let us have a look at the relevant thread with the reply that annoyed you, so that we can know what you are talking about. And can I also second McGrath's request that you identify yourself...there is so much unpleasantness associated with anonymous GUESTS that the very appearance of the word GUEST can annoy some people! So as this is a thread about being nice to each other, do please use your name.
   And finally, there is some very unpleasant stuff sometimes on Mudcat, but it is also chockful of friendliness, erudition, wit and general camerarderie, and that is why loads of us keep coming back for more.
Cheers
Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:01 AM

Thanks Guru - I was going to reply to Guy's post in like vein . Comment NOT aimed at this thread , but at the way people respond to obvious Troll and Flamers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: My guru always said
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:12 AM

Glad I understood you LF, isn't it easy to misunderstand things though?

Also easy to get drawn into discussions that can go from bad to worse in the space of seconds, just by a word wrong here or there. From this keyboard it's hard to identify how thick or thin a person's skin is, or whether they mean what they have written quite literally. Could also be a difference in translation as we are a world-wide community.

I echo greg's request to our original GUEST poster of this thread, though it will be difficult to be certain that any GUEST's reply will be from our original GUEST poster in view of the lack of identification. What a tricky method of communication this is...

To borrow another's 'tag-line',
Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

A relative newly reformed and contrite contributor.

But clearly some considerable way to go, judging by the post that accompanied that one.

I don't really agree with Sorcha about "the political threads. People who feel like being unpleasant can be that way anywhere. Just because a thread centres round some political issue - and politics can mean just about anything - is no reason for anyone to conduct the discussion in a discourteous or uncontrolled manner. Conversely, just because a discussion is about music or song hasn't ruled out a downward spiral on occasion.

People often talk about how someone else has made them lose their temper, as if the responsibility lies out there somewhere, but that's nonsense. The only person who can make us lose our temper is ourself. And the way that this means of communication is structured makes it simple enough to keep on the level, compared to face to face conversation thanks to the inbuilt delay.

On the other hand, of course, it makes it easier to insult other people in a way we might be inhibited from doing in a face to face disagreement, and we're that sort of person. But most people aren't that sort, fortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

As a notorious "Guest" basher, might I agree with McGrath to a very large degree.

Guest, you are very welcome here, and your point is very valid. But, as with the other regulars here, I also think it's largely incorrect. For the most part, you will find a very friendly & welcoming society on Mudcat, if occasionally thicker than normal skin is required.

If you 'innocently' venture into the BS section, you might get your sensibilities burned from time to time. But, as has been noted, there are very few genuinely nasty members here. Even Gargoyle is somewhat of a pussycat (albeit, one that is usually showing a few claws at least!).

But please retain your (previous) name. It makes it much easier for the rest of us to identify you & relate to you. Lack of a name is often the biggest obstacle to reasoned debate, especially when several anonymous guests contribute to the same thread. As with others, I'd also like to know when you were burnt. Most especially, I'd like to know whether, at such times, there were Mudcat members taking your side & defending you against the intolerant & rude? That's the real sign of community, I feel. Who defends you when they don't even know you? And there's plenty of community spirit on Mudcat, believe me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

I have posted to political threads, expressing my own opinions. Now I limit myself in this area, and also in the religion threads.

That said, I have no problems posting to MOAB and other such threads, or even starting my own. (By the way, do you know how very many thread titles can be set to the tune of "Rosin the Beau"?)

My first request was for lyrics. It was answered, and later the lyrics for the version I was seeking were also posted.

Mostly, folks here are like everyone else, except for the banjoists and accordionists. But come to think of it, every society has its sociopaths. 8-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Cllr
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

Did some one mention political! oh its another guest nasty or not thread still one often descends into the other. cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

If I didn't find *most* of the participants likeable and/or amusing, I wouldn't spend as much time at Mudcat as I do. All in all, we're a pretty nice group, don'tcha think?

As I see it, most of the nastiness and ill-will manifests itself down here, "below the line," under the heading of BS. I periodically resolve to back off and remain uninvolved here, but I'm not always successful. Why?

My usual approach is to start at the top of the forum page and work down, scanning the titles of threads for subjects that might be of interest to me. Then I'll read each thread I select, and perhaps respond. Sometimes I take a while to complete a post (especially when interrupted to do work, when at work), and start over again from the top once my post has brought a thread back to the top of the list.

When the music section contains enough sufficiently lengthy threads that interest me, I stay occupied up there and never venture down to the BS basement. When too many of the music-section discussions concern subjects about which I neither know nor care, I exhaust my options too quickly, and so find myself turning to BS for my reading-and-posting fix.

Also: The recent election and the current war are subjects about which I have fairly strong opinions. I rarely if ever participated in BS until the current mess began to develop. When I do jump into such debates, I am willing to give as good as I get; I'm not surprised that some folks disagree with my point of view, and I'm not offended when they state as much ~ no matter how smart or dumb, how thoughful or nasty, I consider their approach. To those who are too thin-skinned to tolerate such criticism (and even ridicule), I say "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

Finally, I must admit:

I am enamored of the sound of my own voice ~ perhaps even more with the virtual "sound" of my writing voice than with my literal/actual speaking-and-singing voice.

I don't believe I am alone in this regard. ;^)

I'm sure that this personality flaw has occasionally caused me to unintentionally offend someone, and will probably do so again; if so, please accept my apologies for all past and future transgressions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM

Hey Poppagator, why do you put *certain* words in asterisks? Seen others do it too. What do *they* mean?

Sorry about the thread drift but this has me puzzled!
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:19 PM

It's been a tech problem sometimes to use quotes in an HTML environment as they are also used in HTML to make things do tricks.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM

Asterisks are for emphasis. Not everybody has a handle on HTML, & there are many different BB's running different software. Some recognise < >, some { }, some [ ], for formatting delimiters. If you'd rather stick to plain text, * * is a fairly generic atttempt at emphasizing a given word.

Hope this helps, Johnny!

R


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:32 PM

Aaaa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-aahhh!
Thanks guys. Thought I was missing something!
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM

When I type in quote marks, they come up as quote marks - like "here".
And sticking in italics isn't exactly hard.

I suppose we could always start up a fight about this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:56 AM

The music section can present problem to new posters - because it has been going for a long time and many long-term contributors feel they have said all they can on the subjects covered and re-covered in this time. The 'folk-singing horse' is one example that comes to mind. When someone posts this or a similar observation - for what they may think is the first time - perhaps this can just be accepted? Some folk can use this as a opportunity to adopt a tone that could be thought 'nasty'.

If a new thread appears on any well-worn subject - perhaps the best approach for long-term posters is simply to approach it as if it were the first and only time the subject has surfaced? Or ignore it - and leave it to those for whom this IS the case - to develop their own ideas? We may all even learn something new - if we do this....

There is no harm in linking to previous threads - but perhaps it would be better if this can be done after the intial contributions are made?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:14 AM

No need for a punch-up McG, just my cyberskills that are a bit lacking! Like you, my inverted commas come up as ", so I was puzzled as to what the asterisks meant. Incidentally, how does one italicise on the 'Cat??
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:39 AM

The nastiness quotient here (IMHP) is a tenth of what is found elsewhere among similar people on the internet with wimilar interests.

I suppose there are fewer strident back door fascists here than other places. That is not to say there are a few missionaries here but they are in such numbers as to not be a critical mass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM

We link to the older threads not to be rude but because we see the threads as a respository for later research. "It's been discussed before" is usually meant as an encouragement to dig for gold, not as a dismissal. In my case I don;t usually have the time these days to go dig it up for someone-- but Mudcat searching has never been easier or more rewarding, as site features have imporved, so I expect people to do for themselves what many of us did in our day when we first came here. This isn't Google or an instant-help-desk; it's a preserved yet dynamic collection of contributions.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM

Italics - you do it like (i)this(/i), Strolling Johnny - except that instead of those brackets - ) and ( - you use < and >, and it comes up like this
..............................

Requests for information aren't always just requests for minfirmation, they can be an opening to a conversation, and all kinds of unexpected infirmation and observations can arise that way. Often enough you could get the actual answer through a search engine, but that'd miss the point.

And the same goes for discussions - it may have been discussed many times before, but there are different people around this time, with different contributions to make. As WYSIWYG points out, going back and looking up previous threads is interesting in itself, and pointinh people to them is a friendly gesture most times - but it shouldn't ever be just a way of shutting up a newcomer, and occasionally it feels that way, and occasionally it is meant that way. Not at all nice.

Do people ever behave that way in the big world? "We talked about that three months ago, no point in doing it all over again."


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Oaklet
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

That sums it up nicely, Oak.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM

Way to go Oakley - no one can argue with that!
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Pauline L
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM

When a newbie posts a question and someone says, "We've discussed that before," it can sound like a put down. It may sound like, "We've done such a good job that there's nothing left to say." I favor referring to the previous discussion, giving a link, and adding new thoughts. The population of Mudcat is constantly changing, and fresh viewpoints can be very worthwhile. Also, previous contributors may have something new to add. I hope we're all capable of new thoughts. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM

well anyway if I offended anybody here , I'm sorry. You're quite right, whoever said it, its your own fault if you lose your temper.

Perhaps we all have to imagine the person's here that we are talking to. I'm sure most of us don't start rows with people who are guests in our own house.

Its all part of the trouble I guess - all this impersonal freedom and we're like nudists running through cyberspace throwing off social conventions and flaunting naked emotions. Feeling the wind between bits of thought and feeling that haven't seen the light of day in years.

all the best

Big Al


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:32 PM

I've been away for over 24 hours, so many others have answered WLD's question to me (about those asterisks) quite adequately already. But I'll say something anyway:

Quote marks are never a problem, and the *'s are not intended as a subsititute for "'s. I picked up a practice I had seen others use in email and on various forums, to wit, using "open and close" asterisks for emphasis, like boldface and/or italics.

Thanks to McGofH, I now know how to make real italics. I suppose you can get boldface similarly, using "b" instead of "i." (Yes! It works! Let me try bold italics) I suppose I'll have to change my ways now...

I was quite surprised to see that he could get the correct bracket marks to actually print in a message, i.e., not to be "seen" as code and therefore as non-printing characters ~ I suppose it worked because they had spaces before and after: let's see if this works ~ < >.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:40 PM

bbbbbbb


bbbbbbb


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:42 PM

And if you put Q in there instead, you get quote marks; if you put U you get underlinimg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:58 PM

GUEST that started this thread:

If you don't like it, stay out of the BS thread!!!!!!

Otherwise, shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:14 PM

GUEST that started the thread actually made the comment in respect of music threads.   

As I indicated earlier, I don't think the criticism made of the Mudcat was that well-founded, however it has given rise to an intereesting enough thread, which stayed reasonably well-mannered - up until that last post by "GUEST,observer", anyway. Well, I suppose there are always going to be some like that - not that many, but too many.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

This isn't Google or an instant-help-desk; it's a preserved yet dynamic collection of contributions.

If only it were just that. It is also a collection of contributors - and a fine lot they generally are.

But there does need to be a balance. Is there a case that far too much attention can often be focused upon judging who it is that may be contributing - rather than concentrating on the contribution itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:58 AM

In the short time that I've been posting here, I've probably ruffled the feathers some people by asking questions about traditions that are highly esteemed by them {such as Morris dancing and the custom of blacking up}.

I also know that my mention of race/ethnicity has irritated or angered some folks here who believe that this music site and/or music in general [is or should be] color-blind.

But I'm pleased to say that I've had only a few 'nasty' [mean]comments. Also [though this wasn't the question]I would add that there have only been a few occasions in my 5 months posting here that I've received what I would consider to be purposely racially offensive public posts or argumentative PMs.

On those occassions other members/guests have posted supportive comments on the forum and I have received supportive PMs.

Usually I try to 'play pass' {ignore}these comments and those commentors. Once it seems clear to me that a person is commenting for the fight of it all, and not genuinely seeking information or understanding, I disengage. So yes, I have walked away from threads and will continue to do so. Some people may think that I shouldn't walk away from a pot after I had stirred it up..but my intention has never been to raise an issue to provoke an argument or to declare my position {the only right one} and any other position completely wrong.

With regard to subjects such as the aforementioned Morris dancing and blackening up, I feel that as a result of my engagement I better understand the folks who are involved in those traditions and I believe that many of them better understand my concerns...Therefore I count it worth posting to such threads or introducing such threads to be worth the possibility or reality that some people will be annoyed at me.

Although I don't want to be considered as speaking for any other person or any other African American but myself, sometimes I do find myself giving the [a] Black point of view or seizing an opportunity and turning it into a teaching moment {to raise awareness about African American culture and perspectives}. It's my nature to do so and I've clearly admitted it's part of the reason why I'm here {or if I didn't clearly admit it-I do so now}.

Hopefully more African Americans and other people of color will begin to post regularly on Mudcat Cafe.

This place is so rich in information and generally so welcoming that it would be a shame for newcomers of any race or ethnicity to be turned off by the atypical few.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM

Azizi has initiated and contributed to some very useful and interesting threads; and I haven't seen a single post by her that messed things up by the way she responded to potentially provocative posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:10 PM

Passions run high in a true democracy.

Mudcat is a true democracy.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM

Thanks, McGrath of Harlow

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:17 PM

GUEST 01 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM,

Of course that's also true. What I think happens sometimes tho is that people will wring an upset out of a post that is merely brief.... that a lot of human beans tend not to say "this hurts me" but say instead "YOU failed MY manners standard". I'm not a mind-reader, and I certainly don't mean to give offense in brevity.

BUT I also think the expectations new people bring here often are part of the instant-internet-gratification stuff rampant in the culture today.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Gypsy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:25 PM

Initial Guest, you REALLLY need a name! Oftentimes, if a thread is out of control, or veering a direction that is distasteful to me, i will PM a person directly with pertinant information. I can't be the only one who does this. You might get alot of answers, and avoid the fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:57 AM

Passions run high in a true democracy.

Mudcat is a true democracy.


I think perhaps the forum may require a few more elements to qualify as a democracy - let alone a true one.

Passions tend to run equally high - if not even higher in a dictatorship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,ragdall
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:33 AM

It is difficult for a newcomer to learn the unwritten rules of conduct in this forum. They seem complicated.

Are there some topics that are off limits in the BS section?

How do you decide whether a post was intended to create a thoughtful discussion, or to inflame?

Would a topic be more likely to gather responses if it were posted by one of the long time contributers than if it were posted by someone who is new to this forum? It sometimes appears that the interaction between people who have established connections and relationships here, (both "positive" and "negative"), is more important to participants than the actual substance of the posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

There aren't those kind of rules, ragdall.

But I think once we start reading between the ones about people's intentions that can be dangerous. The best rule here, I think, is to always assume the best about people's intentions. If we are wrong, it will rapidly become apparent, and nothing is lost. If we do it the other way, and assume that someone is hostile, when they aren't in fact, and react accordingly, we do genuine damage to the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM

Guru and Leadfingers, THanks for your question and Lead's clarification . All the best . guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

Azizi,

First time I've seen your name (I tend to hang around the BS section & fight dirty! *grin*), but I reckon your post of 11:58 would make a pretty good "Rules of the Road" for a Mudcat beginner. Especially the last line. It could almost be a Site by-line!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 03:42 AM

I used to be a regular but recently some of the back bitting has been overwhelming and not what I joined Mudcat for, so I stick with the lyrics and music which are invaluable. I think its very sad what this place has become, to what it used to be. Perhaps one day it will get back to what it once was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 04:37 AM

Well, at least I don't have to worry about all this 'fool' nonsense...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM

Very often the strong elements of something can also be its weakness. The ability to find folk who post things that interest you or are involved in similar things lead us to make closer contact over time. Sometimes this is possible - if you live close enough but mostly this contact is confined to the forum or via Personal Messages (PMs) etc.

Over the years this has lead to the current situation where the forum is groups of posters (known in some degree or form to one another) who tend for some reason - to need to judge the worth of other posters entire personalities - based purely on what is contained in their posts. Often building up a picture of this person - which may have some truth in it - but one that is just as likely to be right as wrong.

For some posters - for some reason - also seem to have a need to create a personality here to post behind - which may in fact be nothing like their real one. Pretending not to spell very well or adopting a 'hicky' way of writing etc.

I am not too sure what can be done now to address this need for all of these judgements to be made and seemingly encouraged - but I am pretty sure that it what contributes to what is referred to as the nastiness some refer to here. It is not always that these judgements of other poster's personalities are nasty - but it is that they do seem to be needed for some reason and have become very much part of the forum and not I suggest - to its benefit.

However, there is no real need for any judgements of people and their motives - for how in all truth can you tell this from a posting or even a series of postings? Surely all that is required is just for a personal judgement to be made by each contributor of that contribution - as to whether to respond or not - to what is said in the post........?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:41 PM

Raedwulf -

I appreciate your comment & compliment. And I would also mention that this is the first time I saw your name too...

As I mentioned in my post, I'm relatively new here, and usually post above the BS line. I guess being a church girl book worm music lover I never learned how to fight dirty...

Although sometimes somebody has to fight dirty, and maybe the occassion would arise that it might be me..But I'd rather fight smart..or not have to fight at all...

Peace,
Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:16 AM

I was surprised that Azizi and Raedwulf just "met" for the first time. Both names have been familiar to me for at least several months.

There are so many different discussions going on here at any given time, and none of us could possibly participate in all of them. Since everyone has a different set of interests, we encounter each other in different threads; each of us has areas of interest that "overlap" with those of some fellow members more than with those of others.

I recently noticed a clever pseudonym for the first time and figured the person must be a new member. I clicked on the name and learned that he had made literally thousands of posts, both music and "BS," and has been a member much longer than I have. I could not even perceive a pattern in the titles of thread to which he had contributed that indicated that his interests were notably different from my own. How could I possibly have missed him? Coincidence, I suppose.

When I consider this case, and then think about the many members who have become very familiar to me, constantly posting to the same threads, I don't know what to think.

So, think about it. If you find a particular individual especially annoying, it may reflect on you ~ the very fact that you continually encounter each other indicates that the two of you have quite a bit in common. Otherwise, you'd never bump into each other. So, try to "accentuate the positive" by concentrating on that common ground!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Nastiness
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 02:58 PM

Seems pretty benign lately, at least...


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