Interesting bits of the Bible

Subject: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:07 AM

Ok, I guess some people find it all interesting.

Various groups quote bits of the Bible to support a particular aspect of what the say or do without regard for other bits.

I seem to remember the Dutch Reform Church of South Africa quoting a passage about horse not being hitched to Donkies or some such thing as a reason for Apathied.

Those who oppose gay relationships have an Old Testament quote about who can lie with who, although Jesus may not have had anything much to say on that issue.

I remember a number quotes in a letter to a news paper - I think one concerned stoning women who plant carrots alongside swedes. I almost certainly have the details wrong but do you get my drift?

Does this ring a bell. Does anybody know any of these unlikely bits of the Bible?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:18 AM

Fundamentalists insist on taking literal meaning from passages of their own choosing, while ignoring the contradictions. There is one paradox however that none want to face:
The Old Testament predicts the comming of the Messiah to be a saviour to the Jews. When Christ came he was rejected by the Jews because they did not believe Him to be the Messiah. He then became a saviour to the Gentiles.
Now the tough question is this:
"Was Christ a failure because he did not fulfill his intended mission?"
The thought of Christ failing in his mission would be heresy to these Bible thumpers , but if they claim to fully believe the old testament they would have to accept the fact that He did fail.
   Another theme from Christ's teaching that they don't often quote is the one about the camel and the eye of the needle.
The message of Christ was for us to "love one another" and to live in peace. What a shame that we are too stupid to follow such simple instructions!
    Obie

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:20 AM

All good stuff Obie.

I know this is childish but I was looking for funny one liners.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:18 AM

It's childish, AND insulting. Take anything out of context and you can have a ball with it, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Oh, I don't think it was your INTENTION to be offensive, but here's a wake-up call-- it is.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:44 AM

Obie,
Some "fundamentalists" may, as you say, "insist on taking literal meaning from passages of their own choosing, while ignoring the contradictions", but I can assure you that, in the majority of the fundamental churches to which I've been exposed -- and they have been many (I went to fundemental Christian schools from the time I was in elementary school) -- that kind of "interpretation" is not accepted as proper interpretation.

1. A fundamentalist would insist on an inerrant autograph, of which there are exactly none.

2. A fundamentalist would, however, still insist on handling (interpreting) what we do have with the utmost care and scholarship, as a true "revelation" from God.

3. That means that a fundamentalist would interpret the Bible to mean what it was intended to mean when "given" (as an inspired revelation) -- and that sussing out that meaning is part of the plan -- through scholarship.

4. So, a fundamentalist might insist, upon study, that parts of the Bible are, indeed, meant to be taken "literally" -- as with "Thou shalt not murder", or "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and even much of the historical record. But other parts of the Bible, the fundamentalist would insist, with equal vigor, that they should be taken "Symbolically" or "poetically" or "within historical/cultural context".

5. The fundamentalist would also say that context goes beyond simple placement context -- and extend to the whole of the Bible -- how it fits with the continual meaning. In this manner, rarely does a passage stand, unsupposrted by the whole, competely on its own apparent meaning.

So, if you asked a knowledgable fundamentalist if he takes the Bible "literally" he would probably say, "Some of it. But I take it all seriously."

One point of misunderstanding arises because, if the Bible seems to be clear on something that comes into question by virtue of external evidence, the fundamentalist is often hesitant to accept the new evidence on face value. The fundamentalist is hesitant to just be dismsissive of the Bible-- sometimes for "religion/tradition" reasons, but sometimes because fundamentalism has gotten burned in the past by accomodating too soon.

The fact that it is complex enough that you misunderstood this whole "literal" issue, you might find it easier to accept that many fundamentalists are just as confused as you. You could choose to cut them some slack. Or not.

Dr: ...and here we have the pregnant Bart, and the one armed Bart, and the railroad-spike-through-the-head Bart..."

Homer: aaaaaaw. Boy sure do love their trains!

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: catlova
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:51 AM

Obie

I found your contributions interesting. But I guess, in a thread with a very religious theme, people want to control the responses. I think your questions were worth asking.


catlova

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:00 AM

Who owns the Book?

Right then we can all read it, that's the point. My reading is as valid as anyone elses.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:01 AM

...oh, and by the way, Obie, I was certainly taught about the camel and the eye of the needle.

I was also taught that all of the Old Testament contained parallel prophecies -- One of a triumphant, ruling Messiah, and one of a bleeding sacrificial lamb. In good accept-the-paradoxes-and-live-in-faith tradition, I was taught that, though one might speculate as to how those prophesies were, or are yet to be fulfilled, it is a tricky game. But by no means does the Christian accept that Jesus' mission was a failure just because the Jews rejected him at the time of the incarnation. Quite the opposite. They see the incarnation as the fulfillment of the "bleeding lamb" portions of the Old Testament -- the fulfillment and explanation of the whole mysterious Levitical sacrificial system. And they believe that the triumphant. ruling Messiah is yet to come.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:06 AM

Who owns the Book?

Right then we can all read it, that's the point. My reading is as valid as anyone elses.

Les,

I think the point is that you might consider the insensitivity of ridiculing what another holds sacred. I'm sure you feel safe in assuming that those here in the mudcat do not hold the Book sacred, or if they do, those that do are of the ilk for whom you don't give a shit.

If you were given the assurances that this was an all-white internet forum, would you feel free to use the "N-word"? Probably not.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:20 AM

Jim, I think you might want to consider the insensitivity of attempting to ram your particular form of religion, with its presumptions, strictures, literary interpretation and dogma down the throats of those that want nothing to do with them.

There might be some who find your self-satisfied, true-believer hubris insulting as well.

Jalapeño, Brother.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:24 AM

Not ramming anything, Greg.

Keep it funky, man.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:40 AM

The thing is, when one holds up a line of text and interprets it literally in order to poke fun at people who one thinks take it literally, you're being as simplistic in "Bible interpretation" as the people ridiculed. It amounts to just ridiculing people one doesn't actually know, or the way one assumes they think, without actually getting in the face of an individual one knows well enough to gain understanding with.

Although it's considered quite PC at Mudcat to bash religion, when its done just for fun it gets really tiresome. And it's like yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. Yes, a lot of dumb stuff goes on (and has gone on) in the name of religion, but is it any help to run threads that only go over the same hurts over and over again? And is it all right to give as good as one feels one has gotten-- do hurt right back, at people who had nothing to do with whatever happened?

As an example of how really dumb this kind of Biblical citation is, tell me how much sense it makes when people with nothing but fear or hatred of religion lecture my husband-- our diocesan Bible scholar-- on the ins and outs of Scripture? See, it's easy to do that-- a lot easier than sitting down to actually ask curious questions and find out ways to look at it and study it from someone who can be helpful in learning something. Negativity is so LAZY.

The fear of being proselytized-at keeps people so much on the defensive, they assume it's every Christian's style, plan, and mission in life. Well I hate to break it to the trolls and flamers, but it's not, and I for one am tired of seeing an entire culture tarred with that brush any time faith of any sort is mentioned.

It's insulting. As folkies we plumb the depths of various cultures for the music, but it's fine to pick and choose which cultures to dismiss, bash, or ridicule? How dumb is that?

Not what Les intended? I would hope not. But the effect is the same, and it's cumulative. And it's feckin' SUNDAY so who is here to object?????????????

Why not just title threads like this honestly: "I'm Bored, So Please Help Me Ridicule Jewish Culture and Rekindle Anti-Xian Rancor".

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM

Seems to me that a pattern which persists like that contains some egregious alterations of truth. Otherwise it would not generate such endless wrangling.

But that's just me.


A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:43 AM

I suppose, Amos.

But if you were to try to give it the benefit of the doubt, you might note that science is also constantly self-correcting. Science is constanty refuting what it once held as true -- sometimes merely improving on what was known, but often completely shooting down many a pardigm which had quite pragmatic use within its context.


Hope your day is the ginchiest, Kooky!

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

Seems to me that a body of writing which persists like that contains some worthwhile challenges to consider. Otherwise it would not generate such endless wrangling.

But that's just me.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:58 AM

I for one am tired of seeing an entire culture tarred with that brush any time faith of any sort is mentioned.

Suggestion then: try condemning & opposing some of the "christain" loonies- might help to distance you from 'em & reduce the lumping.

"FEAR of being proselytized-at"??? Please. People are just tired of it & it eventually pisses them off. They're hardly afraid.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:11 AM

It seems to me that some people pick and choose which bits they want. I guess that's up to them.

But next time gay and lesbian people are attacked by reference to one tiny bit of the old testament I would like to have another bit to wrong foot them with.

Any offers, remember this book belongs to us all.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:13 AM

Greg F,

Not worried about lumping. Don't see your suggestion furthering anything I believe matters.

FEAR, yes, or why else react as hysterically as so many do? That kind of rigidity is almost always recognizable as fear-based when one takes a good, long look at the underlying experiences. So I don't find additional fear-mongering helpful toward any positive result.

attempting to ram ..... down the throats... Shucks, no fear in THAT image! :~) Funny.... I can't recall every actually hearing in church that we are to insert Bibles in anyone's orifices..... of course in most editions it wouldn't fit in any of them.... but I'll ask around. Maybe some sect goes in for that (not mine).

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

It seems to me that some people pick and choose which bits they want. I guess that's up to them.

Les, we cross-posted.

What I think is more accurate for the vast majority of believers (of ANY belief system) is that on the level of actually living their lives, what people tend to do is try to live the parts they understand, one moment of life at a time; living then tends to enlarge what one feels one understands.

Answering an individual with a strategy aimed at a group is not going to be very accurate to the spot an individual might actually be able to hear you. In my experience what works better than arguing, in dealing with anyone's rigidity, is asking them questions. If you engage their thinking, at a spot where they can actually think flexibly if invited to do so without feeling attacked, you'd be surprised how even the most fundamentalist belief system suddenly opens up to light. But that takes relationship.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM

It is very difficult, sooner or later, to have exchanges with people who have decided to believe a whole collection of things based on a book written between 2 and how many thousands of years ago?

It is also difficult to understand why some religious people get so annoyed and offended because of what I might say (say) about some aspect of what they believe.

Religions seem to be a special case. What people believe does not need to founded in our general knowledge and understanding of the natural world. They have extra ways of being offended and in the UK we have special laws - Blasphamy Laws - to punish the rest of us who are outside that faith.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

"Natural" world???


A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

The clear evidence from geology and other associated sciences is for this planet to be around four and a half billion years old. Their is no contending alternative.

Some religious groups denigh this have believe systems based on parts of the old testament.

Are they using the OT as a geology book? Looks like it to me. How can I discuss the origins of physical geography with these people?

Do they use the OT to service the car? No. Itis this inconsistency that makes exchanges difficult.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Non-believer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:58 AM

Les, one of my favorite passages in the "good book" is in Kings II, chapter 2. The prophet Elisha is just walking along minding his own business and several rotten little kids start making fun of him because of his bald head. Now this old testiment god doesn't like these little monsters ridiculing Elisha's folicular inadequacy, so, instead of giving the guy a nice head of hair, he sends two bears down to kill the children while Elisha goes on about his business, bald head shining in the hot, noon-day sun. Moral of the lesson? Don't mess with the big guy or his followers. Les, be careful opening your door, there might be a couple of bears coming your way.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM

Thank you Guest.

Ok people of the book is this a sound reading or a misunderstanding?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

Hey, Les:

Having studied two years into a Doctorate in Geology and having taught Historical Geology on a college level, I never found the slightest problem in the actual age of the earth. There must be at least five or six Christians left on the planet who take the account of the origin of the earth and calculate it's age from the bible. So far, at 69, I haven't met one yet. If you want to make generalizations about Christians, take the time to really get to know some.

Or perhaps, things are really much weirder in Britain. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

I don't think anyone here has said anything offensive. I took Les at his word that he/she was looking for 'interesting bits' that might not be commonly bruited about. I have one that I learned from a well read 'fundamentalist' co-worker. It had to do with not being too obnoxiously cheerful in the morning. He and I are early risers but if I haven't had my espresso in the morning I'm not the person 'my dog thinks I am'. He said it was in Proverbs that it is a sin to hale someone too cheerily in the morning.

Proverbs 27:14

On a side note let me recommend Scripture Markers. They are a set of colored plastic crayons which allow you to make visible marks on thin skinned bible pages. They son't smear and they are erasable. They're made by Sanford and I've only found them in Mormon bookstores (Beehive Books). I had a Mormon coworker who used them for marking up the National Electric Code books which are bibles in themselves.


All you have to do to be a revolutionary is examine the real world.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

How about the origin and evolution of species then. A number slightly larger than 5 denigh the current neo-Darwinian thesis, including your President I think.

Is that the smell of burning school science books?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM

Then Les I would simply remind them that Paul said we are all children of light and we are not to judge anyone even if we do not necessarily agree with their lifestyle. And leave it at that. Because contention is of the devil >:) That first quote I think has more to do with believers and unbelievers than a particular ethnic group...the third quote I have no idea but it sounds rather like remnants of the old Mosiac Law. You have to take all those things in the context they were written.

Zechariah 5:1 World's first food fight

Proverbs 25:24 If Momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy

And a favorite to remind me when I get too wordy {O) Ecclesiastes 5:3

WS, I agree with you that we should never mock what is sacred...however I do think He can have a sense of humor {O)

So a suggestion is to try and turn this thread in a more positive direction and put down quote and passages from the Bible that are favorites, that have deeply moved you, that are odd or a bit funny, or that are just plain intriguing and encourage pondering rather than arguing over religions and who's right or wrong.

1st Corinthians 13:13

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM

You may want to do that. I want some quotes to wrong those homophobic biggots. And I see that as a good and positive thing to do.

Remember first they came for the gays and lesbians, then they came for the science teachers...............

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Robomatic: that's a funny quote {O)

If someone yelled good morning to me before I was good and awake I'd be liable to put a curse on 'em as well. Sounds like the one who wrote Proverbs knew what he/she was talking about

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

I NEED to know the instructions on how to work that curse.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

Well, Les, if that was your actual intention, I think your thread title is disingenuous.

I still ask you though-- do you think it is actually going to help anything at all to use a tactic you deplore-- selective citation it's called, or proof-texting-- back at others who are already not thinking flexibly? In becoming equally rigid, do you think you have a better chance of getting "THEY" to be less rigid? Just in practical terms I mean-- um, that doesn't WORK. I'm sure not going to pour my energy into helping you research what I know from experience is essentially a negative black hole.

What is the positive thing you are after? How can we who know more Bible than you, help you get THERE? How is it you would rather "They" see gays and lesbians, for instance?   If "they" were allies instead of enemies?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:28 PM

hehehehe...

And that is why you should never make fun of bald-headed people...because you are liable to get mauled by bears...

As for science and religion...not necessarily a Bible quote but

" Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind " Good old Albert Eistein

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

Fair comment about the title. It is difficult to be effective in three or four words.

As for the tactic you are probably right. But sometimes you have to confront people with a shock tactic. It is not possible to discuss much with the fascists and by that I mean the political far right.

In the same way I think confronting homophobic biggots, and that is not an overstatement, by asking them to comply with some other bizzare (sorry cannot seem to spell that) bit of the Bible is a startegy worth a try.

But to be honest my case falls if I cannot find a direction from the Bible which supports my purpose.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

Les, I don't think it'a an overstatement either, I just have had some success dealing with the frightened, forgotten people living inside those bigots, and I want to encourage you not to give way to the temptation to use tactics bound to fail-- they fail because they simply become the bigots' fodder for more of their hate. Their hate (believe me or don't) is fear-based too, so scaring them out of their behavior doesn't work at all. It just entrenches them in what they were brainwashed to believe is right, as a programmed defense.

One way I use the Bible is as a set of "if everything fails read the directions" sourcebook. When I run out of bright ideas, or can see that the brightest ones are not working at all, I try what I see as God's suggestions. In other words, I hear the tone of them not as what I SHOULD do but as, "You know, it might actually work if you try it THIS way....." One of those is about loving one's enemies. Take the SHOULD out of it and it's actually a very subversive approach. It's so hard to defend against real love.

So again, how would you see the bigots behaving-- if they were hit by lightning, say-- if they became total allies? Go ahead and dream a little-- what would it look like?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

So then, Jim, why are so many of the Fundementalists opposed to the work of the Jesus Seminar?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM

Pogo: Thanks, I appreciated your posts, too ;-)

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

I know that you're right, Les. There are plenty more than five folks who don't believe in evolution. And not all of them are Christians, either. I too don't find one-upsmanship a particularly effective way to deal with people.

I might add that I went to college at The university Of Wisconsin in the "Bible Belt" of the United States, and people who didn't believe in evolution were in the great minority. If you're dealing with individuals, it's best to remember that, and avoid projecting the qualities of the few onto the whole.

Did you know that all black folkses loves watermelon? :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

^_^

" Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. "

That's from Desiderata

" A soft answer turneth away wrath " That's from the Bible

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

Nice one Jerry, but I am not intending, though I may fail, to generalise.

My target are the people who say they accept the Bible as it is, then quote small bits. Surely we can move on a bit by asking them why they follow this bit and not that bit.

I can manage polite non-agressive sometimes.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Ok I have thought of an realy dodgy example:

an eye for an eye .........

turn the other cheek.

Yes I know OT v NT.

But that doesn't bother some folks.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

Well then Les...that's getting off into a whole 'nuther thread subject methinks...

I'd say go to the source and read it, personally. Matthew 5:17 talks of the Mosiac law and how Jesus said he had come not to destroy the law but to fufill it which (if you are so inclined to believe that Jesus was the son of God and I understand that many folks do not. That's quite allright) was a part of Jesus's job so to speak, to update the old law. And remember that the Bible covers quite a chunk of ancient history.

*shrugs* it makes sense to me...

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM

My target are the people who say they accept the Bible as it is, then quote small bits.

And every single one of them is an indivudual about whom you cannot accurately generalize. That's just one dimension of them they happen to have in common that happens to really bug you. But focusing on that aspect is not going to get you a result you want, any more than their focusing on the gay aspect of other's lives gets them what they say they want when THEY generalize. You see, this kind of thing can't be fought by using their tactics.

Why is it so hard to see what you would like, from them, as allies?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:31 PM

I take you for your word, Les, that you are not trying to generalize. I have to catch myself when I do that, too. When my sons were teenagers and would make really weird generalizations, I'd say in my best, deep, radio-announcer voice.. "According to a recent nationwide poll... and then repeat their generalization." It stopped them cold every time, with a loud laugh. They picked up on it after awhile and would really delight when they'd catch me making a stupid generalization and could return the "favor."

In the stupid generalization category, I came to know someone who worked at the blasphemed-on-Mudcat Walmart a couple of years ago. He was and is a very friendly guy. But one day, out of the clear blue, he pointed at someone in the store and said to me, "See that guy... he's a Baptist.. Baptists never keep their promises." I just about fell over, marveling at what a stupid generalization it was. When I challenged him about it, he wouldn't back down (despite reminding him that I am currently a Baptist, meself.) In the end, I could only laugh at his foolishness. I see a lot of good in him, and he'd do anything for me. Except think, I guess. But, that's alright. He too has his value.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:39 PM

We all carry collections of beliefs, and even simple knowledge and understanding, which can contain contradictions.

In certain situations these contradictions emerge as a problem on the way to understanding. The contadictions have to be recognised and reconsiled if we are to gain greater understanding.

I suppose I am assuming that the Bible contains contradictions and that people who accept most of it will have a problem with those contradictions. If some people believe it has none, it is difficult to see how I and they can have much of an exchange. But I want to confront them with this problem because it seems to lie at the heart of the matter.

My particular concern is the rise of 'Creation Science', which isn't science at all. But the attitude of some faith groups towards gay and lesbian people, and some towards black people when this is based in the Bible cannot be resolved with out reference to their fundamental acceptance of that book.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:51 PM

Yeah Les, you started this thread in a more lighthearted vein than your more recent posts.

As for 'an eye for an eye' this is a directive for proportional punishment. 'an eye for an eye' (and no more). It is not a recipe for harshness and cruelty.

There is a Jewish interpretation here

I found this through a simple search, I have no experience for the site, but it looked interesting.

When you get into serious scripture you go into territory that others have gone over before. If you're gonna take it trivially you're wasting yours and our time in this thread.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

You'll have to show me any "Creation science" that has involved itself in any issues of homosexuality or race. I'd be interested in seeing that. Anyone that I know who is involved in "creation science" is soley interested in questions of origins.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

Jerry I once had lunch with a friend who'd had a thorough and well rounded Catholic education. He told me how one of the priest's had admonished, "Boys, never trust a Jew!" to which my reaction was, that's not bad advice, but why limit it only to Jews. My friend is intelligent AND a friend. I took the bit of history to be an element of trust in itself. I have my own problems that I can't blame on priests. Once I spent a field trip on the job rooming with a guy named Haman. It's a long story, but after flying home I visited my next door neighbor who was crochething a scarf on her front porch: "Ada, I've learned not to blame any of my problems on Christians any more."
Without looking up she replied, "That's very nice, Robo, they're still going to blame you!"

and so it goes

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

I am not aware of any teachings on gays or blacks related to creation science, either. I know that there are some people who do home schooling around here who use a creation science book. (Not don't get all riled up... I didn't say most people who do home schooling.)
The director of Education at the Museum where I worked read a lot on the subject, only because there were some people in the community who wanted him to help them with it. He didn't buy in to any of it, but he never mentioned anything aboutblacks and gays. I imagine it could be in there.. just never heard of it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM

Jim,

'My particular concern is the rise of 'Creation Science', which isn't science at all.


But the attitude of some faith groups towards gay and lesbian people, and some towards black people when this is based in the Bible cannot be resolved with out reference to their fundamental acceptance of that book.'

I am sorry if this is unclear. These are two different points.

Robomatic,

'If you're gonna take it trivially you're wasting yours and our time in this thread.'

None of what I have intended is trivial.

I accept the point you make about proportionality but what is its natural conclusion, a life for a life?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:13 PM

My target are the people who say they accept the Bible as it is, then quote small bits.
You mean you want someone to turn up on your doorstep and recite the whole thing?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

I personally see nothing wrong with this thread. If Les wants some quotes, and if I choose right now to start tearing the bible apart bit by bit to point out certain (and many)hypocritical and conflicting verse, I should also have that right.
Because I am not a believer in the bible, doesn't make me insensitive to those that do. This thread just opened up a topic that I can also add my thoughts to.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

Les:
Thanks for your thoughtful words. You can check the link for yourself, but I think in general it's safe to say that a life for a life was indeed the logical end, when it was malicious. I do not recall the concept of life imprisonment in the Scriptures. If someone caused an accidental death or injury, I believe a fine was instituted. These are all matters which can be easily verified.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 04:18 PM

Well, in our adult ed group we puzzled out that very part of Scripture-- eye for eye etc., as part of a series of wrasslings over the death penalty. Each group member tore apart Scripture, commentary of various time periods and viewpoints, cultural research, etc. Turns out it was part of the culture that in exchange for a life, you could wipe out a whole family. The Scripture was actually a merciful limit on retribution that was tending to be much worse-- a way of saying that someone else's wrong doesn't give you an excuse to go completely nuts and act on hatred. In the NT the greater and higher value of mercy and forgiveness are explored.

People being what we are-- human-- don't we still (some of us sometimes) yearn to personally choke the life out of somone who has harmed a family member, and don't we (as humans) still have groups warring on whole families and clans (US gang wars) to avenge the death of an individual? Would someone with that kind of rage readily be persuaded to forgive? I think not.... but might somoene of a culture of limited retribution perhaps be ready to take the developmental step to forgiveness? See how that works?

In hermeneutics, we learn to look at Scripture in light of the prevailing culture of the time-- for most people encountering hermeneutics, the first application of it is to shed more light on the deeper meanings in Scripture, through incorporating an understanding of cultural realities of the writers and initial audiences. But sometimes we also need to use hermeneutics to look at our own time-- to look at how our culture is evolving toward higher values.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:04 PM

Not worried about lumping

They why did you specifically piss and moan about it?

Don't see your suggestion furthering anything I believe matters.

Of course not- now why would a good 'Christian' woman like yourself want to speak out against a bunch of nutcases perverting Christ's teachings and promoting hatred, racism and divisiveness?. Silly me.

I can't recall every actually hearing in church that we are to insert Bibles in anyone's orifices.....

Spoken as a true literal interpretationist- as with the bible, so with life.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:09 PM

Rustic rebel, welcome to the Pleasure Dome (FGTH)

Thank all for your varing degree of patience.

I have to watch bad TV. But I trust others will continue to shower light on this topic

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:45 PM

Greg F sez:

try condemning & opposing some of the "christain" loonies

Oh, Greg, If you only knew how much effort we moderate Christians spend fighting off the loonies. Then you'd understand why we're so offended when outsiders class us with the funamentalists. As I said in another thread, I'm far more comfortable with agnostics. I've worked in the Catholic Church all my life as a lay minister and teacher, and the fundamentalist Catholics have been a pain in my ass the whole time.

And then it really bugs me when an outsider, particularly an atheist, tells me I can't be a true Catholic unless I buy the fundamentalist line.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:26 PM

Hi, Joe-

By all means keep up the good work ( and I mean that sincerely! )and believe you me, I NEVER mistook you for a "fundie".

Its doubly unfortunate that the loonies seem to get all the press.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:40 PM

Greg, you seem to have me confused with someone else.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:12 PM

No answer...hmmm.

So, what do you do when the Gospel of, say, Thomas shows up? And let's say that it's proven to be written at a much earlier date than Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? And some of its "bits" are either different or aren't found anywhere else?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:28 PM

"FEED A COLD, STARVE A FEVER, AND ARGUE WITH NO TRUE BELIEVER."

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:27 PM

Someone's sure confused, ~Susie, but I don't believe its me.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:03 PM

Well, you're certainly arguing with things that have nothing to do with me, or with what I said.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:31 PM

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:44 AM

I have heard many a preacher in my time, and most of 'em read a scripture & proceed to preach a straightforward message having to do with the quoted scripture.
    Then there are the ones who "quote" the Bible using the " . . . " method.   To them I quote the Bible:
   
    "And Judas went out and hanged himself . . . Go and do thou likewise."

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:04 AM

The thing is, when one holds up a line of text and interprets it literally in order to poke fun at people who one thinks take it literally, you're being as simplistic in "Bible interpretation" as the people ridiculed.

To poke fun at people, you're dead right. There's no call to do that.

But to point out the inconsistencies and plain wierdness in their beliefs, it's definitely fair game. The Creationists (who believe in the literal truth of Genesis, and of whom there are a goodly number) are a particular case in point. Genesis is just a Babylonian folk myth, and as such has as much relevance as Greek or Roman mythology. There are definitely parables/fables in there with morals for what you should and shouldn't do. But to say that this is the literal truth is daft - it's like taking one of Jesus's stories and saying "there was a real person to whom this happened".

For the Creationists, the literal truth of Genesis usually follows from a belief in the literal truth of the whole Bible. Anti-homosexuality campaigners often also quote "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" from various places. For both of them, various quotes illustrating God having a betting contest with the Devil over Job, or Exodus with God forcing Pharoah not to do as Moses asks and then killing the Egyptians for doing what God made happen, or the various acts of genocide on the way to Canaan, or the various dafter proclamations of Leviticus - all these give a good idea that whilst the Bible is a source of morality in places, in others it's basically a snuff movie.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:10 AM

Grab,

Genesis is just a Babylonian folk myth....

No, it's not JUST that. It's a story preserved and offered as part of a whole body of materials that DO make sense when one contemplates them in their entirety.

From that start, you then leap over a number of points Biblical scholars and theologians would spend a great deal of time and effort untangling. That's one reason why most of us spend our time living our faith instead of defending it-- it's so much more productive. Every time the faith is attacked, it's done so simplistically that to respond helpfully would take a great deal more time and effort than the attacker is investing.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM

16 Only a stupid prince will oppress his people, but a king will have a long reign if he hates dishonesty and bribes.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:10 PM

But next time gay and lesbian people are attacked by reference to one tiny bit of the old testament I would like to have another bit to wrong foot them with.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination.

- Leviticus 18:22

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have comitted an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

- Leviticus 20:13

But I can't find anything about lesbianism! Seems they're ok. Doesn't seem fair.

But whatever you do, don't eat a seagull! (Lev. 10:13)

Peter.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:15 PM

OK ~Susie, have it your way, but then please tell me who it was posted the following under your name & I'll refer my questions to them:

[ Excerpts ]
Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: WYSIWYG - PM
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:40 AM

I for one am tired of seeing an entire culture tarred with that brush any time faith of any sort is mentioned.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: WYSIWYG - PM
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:13 AM

Not worried about lumping. Don't see your suggestion furthering anything I believe matters

I can't recall every actually hearing in church that we are to insert Bibles in anyone's orifices....

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Grab
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:47 PM

Sure they make sense in their entirety - just as Greek myth makes sense in its entirety. The Greeks had great family trees of gods, demigods and assorted heroes, with one story leading on to another and so on. Even though it's internally consistent, it doesn't mean I believe in that as factual truth either, although I don't mind who does.

Most faiths though do tend to converge on a basic design for living, so you living your faith and someone else living a good life with respect for others will more than likely be doing the same things. As you say, it's not JUST an ancient folk myth, it carries moral codes with it - but the moral codes come as parables within a folk myth. My argument is solely with those people using extracts from a holy book as justification for condemnation of others, or those people using stories that are clearly parable rather than factual to support theories that have long since failed to stand up to comparison with the real world. It's a picky, contract-lawyer version of religion which is out of context with the broad thrust of the text.

As far as Leviticus goes, most of it is reasonable sense for people engaged in a long-term nomadic lifestyle, without any significant knowledge of medicine, without any way of punishing criminals other than corporal or capital (a tent prison doesn't work well ;-) and in a country where you're likely to have to fight for the next place you pitch camp. Shame no-one thought to tell them to stop when they settled down - and Jesus's "love one another" makes much of the punishment stuff redundant (or should have done). His main aim was to bust up the dogmatic interpretation of Jewish law, but unfortunately the Jewish law came along for the ride when Christianity got big, because that's what his followers knew.

The myth of the Earth at the centre of the universe was busted pretty conclusively by Copernicus and Galileo. But the RC church of the time would rather have supressed the truth than accept that one story from Genesis was simply a folk myth illustrating the power of God. The Creationists are currently breaking their heads on evolution in much the same way, and using the same methods (smear campaigns against the people concerned and pressure within government to suppress teaching of and research into evolution).

Graham.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

>>RC church of the time would rather have supressed the truth than accept that one story from Genesis was simply a folk myth illustrating the power of God.<<

Actually, I read (Daniel Boorstin, I believe) that the Jesuits were fascinated by and inquisitive regarding the Copernican revolution. It was only after the Protestant reformation began to seize the fundamentalist, strict constructionist ground in rejecting Copernicus that the RC church decided it had best not lose ground as the primary authority on strict interpretation.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: just john
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

Two of my favorite links on the topic:

http://godhatesshrimp.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Yes, The Discoverers at page 325: "The rising attacks of Protestantism made it necessary that Pope Urban VIII respond by showing the determination of the Church of Rome to preserve the purity of the ancients dogmas. Protestants must have no monopoly on fundamentalism."

The long saga of how the drama unfolded from the time of Copernicus, encouraged by his high ranking peers in the Roman Catholic church, through to the sea-change in the time of Galileo, is described on pages 293-327. A darn good read.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

"And then it really bugs me when an outsider, ..., tells me I can't be a true Catholic unless I buy the fundamentalist line." Joe, I'm sure you realize that if we just substitute "Christian" for "Catholic", and "anyone" for "an outsider", many of us are with you "in spades". I've been there, done that, and beaten my head bloody against that in frustration. I guess somewhere along the way I got so I could just let it float by more of the time.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

Graham, I'm with you on this: My argument is solely with those people using extracts from a holy book as justification for condemnation of others, or those people using stories that are clearly parable rather than factual to support theories that have long since failed to stand up to comparison with the real world. It's a picky, contract-lawyer version of religion which is out of context with the broad thrust of the text.


But I don't deal with it by arguing. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:23 PM

Grab,
I'm glad you mentioned Adam and Eve. That is the start of the 'book' that starts me scatching my head.
Adam sins, death and suffering are now cast into the world, baptism makes it's way into history, the stains of original sin are freed and our souls redeemed.
That means we can run naked without modesty if we are baptized right?

Okay all humor aside- relating to Genesis and much controversy, where do the dinosaurs and Neanderthal man enter into this history?
How does the age of the earth, that being around 4.5 billion years, and the discovery of man some 40,000 years old fit into the 10,000 year old bible?
Is evolution something to be considered?

Lots of controversy that could and has forever been discussed. But here's a verse that I just love (not really)...
Timothy 2:8-15

8-I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9-I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10-but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11-A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12-I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13-For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14-And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15-But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

You gotta love the way men or their gods loved controling women huh? Why wasn't a woman created first? what a different world this would have been huh?!
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:32 PM

Okay one more thing, if the bible is parables, fables, myths then where do you draw a line between where true history comes in and what is the fable? I believe when the story tellers of the bible were talking myth, they stated it was myth. Other than that, shouldn't the entire book be taken as fact?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:47 PM

RR, one way scholars look at the Book is Form Criticism-- what type of literature is a passage or whole book, and what are the implications to meaning and significance in light of that form.

Another is Source Criticism-- studying./commenting on who actually wrote what according to the best historic evidence.

Then as I mentioned previously there's Hermeneutics-- looking at a passage in light of the cultural context.

There are lots of other ways people look at Scripture, beyond the read-and-swallow method so many people assume is the norm.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

No.

A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:07 PM

If your God-given intelligence can perceive overwhelming evidence that a story from ANY source is not literal fact, it makes no sense to cling to a faith-based assertation that it is literal fact. From there you have your own choice. one easy choice is to throw the story out as totally worthless. Another choice is to look at the story and see if it contains useful insights. Millions of non-fundamentalist "believers" are comfortable with the latter.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM

Well put Frog Prince.

I have never been out after bothering such people. I suspect I couldn't much, because they are intelligent, thoughtful people who are familair with the strategy of looking at a range of evidence and coming to some tentative conclusion.

But I am concerned and wish to challenge those, and I understand their are millions of them, that use the Bible as a starting point to oppose the teaching of evolution in schools and who oppose gay and lesbian rights from the same reason.

Please forgive me if I have failed to make this case.

I am much puzzled by people who believe something and then get deeply offended by what I say (say) or write (write) about what they believe. Why do they do get so annoyed? I don't.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM

I can't get annoyed about that either Les. I have always believed in the thought that what ever you believe in, that's what's going to work for you. So how could I possibly think anyone's belief to be wrong? Just can't do it.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM

Aw Jesus. Ye are all gettingtoo serious atthis time of night. May the Force be with you all.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM

Where did Cain find a wife who wasn't his sister?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:51 PM

Another question to be pondered Obie!

I would like to go a little further with my last statement on this, because it could appear that I am contradicting myself to some.
On this subject I am only speaking for myself and my thoughts about the bible. These questions I pose are just me questioning the whole idea. I don't want to argue any points that are a value to anyone else, and I'm not going to get into a disagreement about anyones belief system. To each his own.

Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:34 PM

Being Jewish is far less complicated than this, thankfully.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:57 PM

When I was a young girl I almost became a Presbyterian but backed out when the Minister could not (or would not) answer this question.

I had to memorize the apostles creed but I didn't understand this part: "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church,..."

If I was to become a Presbyterian, I asked, why would I be bound by this belief?

I have since found out the answer but it took many years of searching.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM

"Where did Cain find a wife who wasn't his sister?"

He didn't. They were from West Virginia.

(actually, if you want the straight answer...

...by Biblical accounts, Adam and Eve both lived to the ripe old age of 900+ years -- as did most of the people (alas, not Abel) that lived before the flood. As Adam and Eve reproduced at a reasonable rate through much of those 900+ years, the "sisters" from whom Cain had to draw were a small town's worth...

...but also, there is no mention in the account that Cain and Abel were the first-born -- just the first mentioned. As the rest of their siblings were also living to 900+ years of age, and reproducing at a reasonable rate in a world without birth control, Cain likely had great-great nieces his own age (as if THAT matters) from which to choose -- especially when the age of maturity probably still allowed for teen-age girls to bear children -- and that's likely to happen in a world without Television or Nintendo -- what else you gonna do but screw?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:11 AM

"He didn't. They were from West Virginia"

Real amusing, asshole.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:38 AM

Jim Tailor:

But being "brother and sister", i.e., being raised in a family group, does not mean that they are related in West Ginny!

Mike Cross has a song about it...

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM

You must be referring to Elma Turl. I hear she was a real fine girl. I'd LOVE to have her for my wife.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

WYSIWYG, if thine eye offend thee, take it out and cast it from thee. That is bible-speak for if you don't like this thread, why are you reading it and/or posting to it? All you have to do is not click it, and hep, presto, you aren't offended any more.

Not to mention the silliness of advising people to pluck out their own eyes, I mean, has anyone outside of Betty Blue ever actually done it? Oedipus doesn't count, he's mythological.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:57 PM

I think the hard case has been won.

Nobody much goes along with the people who say the Bible is basically all true. It is not very difficult to point to bits that such people might not like, although I would have liked some more along the lines of 'shell fish are an abomination'.

The soft case is concerned with how useful is the Bible as a book, be it a very old one that many people have contributed to, bit still only one book in a very big world library?

I am not sure it is much use, but then again I haven't read it much. I have read lots of other books and I have heard much nonsense from people who think it is very important and it doesn't inspire me.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: EagleWing
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

"But next time gay and lesbian people are attacked by reference to one tiny bit of the old testament I would like to have another bit to wrong foot them with."

Yeah, I can understand why that's offensive.

What really offends me is that society wants to force me to the opposite point of view. If I say, "I'm not sure if I agree with the practice of homosexuality", which seems to me a valid point of view, then someone screams the word "homophobia" at me. It's a meaningless word, anyway. It was invented to make people with an alternative point of view appear to be automatically in the wrong and prevent discussion or dialogue. Homo means same (OK allow same sex) phobia means irrational fear. Homophobia means irrational fear of same sex. I like quite a few members of my own sex. I have no fear of any of them whatever their sexual orientation. I have never found any reason to dislike people because of their sexual orientation (practiced or not). I do find it offensive that I should be called "homophobic" because of my sexual orientation or because I am less than PC about the practice in general.

Just a point of view - but one I feel needs saying in defence of people who do have views which are not PC enough for others - whether that view comes from the Bible or from any other source.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

Hee hee - thread creep but I am reminded of aibohphobia - fear of palindromes. Real word!

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:43 PM

Frank:

I think you will allow that the neologism "homophobia" does not refer to fear of one's own sex, or even of one's own sexuality, but fear of homosexuality.

It is particularly applied to those heterosexuals who freak out at the thought of homosexuals speaking to them, touching them, helping them or even being aware they exist. Usually these are defensive males, in my experience, since females of either persuasion tend to be more tolerant, but not in all cases.

There is nothing about your sexual orientation implied in the word homophobic, but rather it refers to your orientation toward others' sexuality especially when they are homosexual.

A.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:49 PM

I think we know what homophobia means.

It means prejudice against people who happen to love people of the same sex. We can wrestle with the meanings of words but that's what it means to me. Prejude can lead to discrimination and that is unjust.

People accuse all sorts of people of all sorts of things mostly through the media but so what?

Sticks and stones.

After all, god is dog backwards and Rover sounds like Johover

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

I know that's what homophobia is purported to mean now. But at the inception of the use of the word, wasn't the implication that the fear was self-directed? That the true "homophobia" was the fear that one was homosexual themself -- and that was the impetus for such strong outward denial -- to the point of proving one's "non-homosexuality" by persecuting overt homosexuality?

Just the way I'd always heard the etymology. But then I always heard...

"Ain't no woman like the one-eyed got"

(by the way -- I think its use is usually an intellectual dodge - just as Eagle see it)

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

one-eyed got. I love it. 'scuse me while I kiss this guy.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:21 PM

I do find the original idea to this thread quite interesting and not at all insulting. The idea is to point to instances where one selected quote from the Bible is taken as an argument for one particular position. The Bible is a thick book and there are quotes that can be used for opposite purposes. The joke is on the selective quoters and not on the Bible.

To quote 'if thine eye offend thee, take it out and cast it from thee' in the discussion with Wysiwyg is a (tongue in cheek?) prime example. We had a politician who could quote the Bible to make it sound like supporting each position he happened to have.

The German peace movement used freely the 'swords to ploughshares' quote. I was with them, but I always found it greatly amusing to use the opposite 'ploughshares to swords' quote on them. It made some of them think twice.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

I had 100 and I didn't even know it. Not even trying.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Hetero
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:57 PM

Les from Chorlton, Homophobia is not a prejudice against people who love people of the same sex. Its a prejudice against those who have sex with the same sex as shown in a previous post, where someone was quoting from the Bible against "lying with one of the same sex".
Hetero

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Hetero
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

I reckon the interesting bits of the Bible which this thread is threatening to discover are the bits between the two covers.
Hetero

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:26 PM

Interesting point Hetero, I suspect the prejudice is against both.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

Well...honestly if you haven't read a book how can you dismiss it as nothing when you don't know anything about it? Ya have to read the book to decide whether or not you like it.

Like anything in this world the Bible can be used for good or ill. .

It is WHAT you do with it and what you get out of it.

If you read the Bible solely for the purpose of pointing out what is wrong with it, you will get plenty of stuff to back up your ideas. If you read it for historical interest, then you will find plenty of history. If you read it for spiritual benefit then shoot, that's what you'll get out of it. If you use it to beat people's heads in then it makes a pretty good weapon. Depending on if it's hardback or not and if it's like one of those big Church copies {O)

I read it because I know there is wisdom in it. I believe it was written and rewritten by men pondering on the nature of God and in many cases they may have recieved divine inspiration. There's a lot of allegory, parables, history, personal writings, discussions on theology and in short many things I find beneficial in my life. There are many passages in it that make me weep, that make me ponder, some things I frankly can't understand, some things I find delightfully poetic but all of them serve to engage the higher processes of thinking which in my opinion is what every good book should do.

I have also read the Apocrypha, I have read many other books pertaining to religion and higher matters (C.S. Lewis being a favorite) And when I am done reading the Bible cover to cover I think I would like to tackle the Quoran next as well a little book on Buddhist thought I saw in the library recently.

To paraphrase Paul " Whatsoever is lovely, virtous or of good report we seek after these things. " I think that is a good attitude to have. I seek all sorts of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 02:58 PM

Pogo, one of the issues is this, for believers in a faith the Bible is extemely important. To atheists like myself it is important, but one book amongst millions and millions.

My point in this thread has been to point out that people who claim it is all, pretty well, to be believed and followed do not in fact know, believe or follow it all. And that such people should be challenged at least on the grounds of inconsistency.

I alos wanted to have some fun becauae it is less dangerous thasn ranting and shouting, which we all do a bit.

Are Shellfish an abomination or not? Well, they are not even fish for a start.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 03:07 PM

Well, yeah, but no-one asked Frank to agree with the practice of homosexuality, seeing as how he's not a homosexual. The deeper sociological issue is the presumption that all conduct has to be agreed on before it is allowed, where the wiser (and more Constitutional) approach is that which is not specifically forbidden because it causes harm, is an individual choice. As far as I know no homosexual act ever harmed Frank, or me either, so it's none of our business who wants to sleep with lovers of the same gender, even though he and I would perhaps crawl out of our skins first!! We don't have to agree or disagree with it, because it is none of our damned business, is what I think.

A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:00 PM

I am with you on this Amos.

As somebody said (since this is a music website):

Love is the sweetest thing ......

What I do find a bit confusing is that a lot of people posting here seem to have 2 names and know each other ....... is that biblical or Russian or what?

Anyway I am going back to watch Dinner ladies with the love of my life ...........

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM

One of my favorite Bible stories is the mysterious hand that wrote on the wall prophesying Belshazzer's downfall. There's a great song that captures it from Daniel Chapter 5 completely:

From the Ladies Garment Workers Union Revue: "Pins And Needles"

Mene Mene Tekel

by Harold Rome

The King of Babylon Belshazzeh
He sat feasting on his golden piazza
With his court and concubines
Stuffin' in fried chicken and imported wine

Mene Mene Tekel, Tekel, Tekel
Mene Mene Tekel, Upharson

They sat there in that banquet hall
Drinking from the vessels of the Lo-ord
Big swells of the neighborhood
Praisin' Gods of gold and silver iron and wood

Now the King of Babylong Belshazzer
Was a mean ol' razzeh - dazzeh
Never paid no income taxes
The big shot of the Babylon Jerusalem Axis

Mene Mene Tekel, Upharson

Now the tribes of Judah from below
Heard the saxophones and trumpets blo-ow
Sore and weary laid them down
While Belshazzeh and his troup were goin' to town

Oh the joint was hot, the booze was flowin'
How the wine and beer and gin was flowin'
When of a sudden, all was still
Everyone froze to the floor with a chill

Above the plaster and the brick
Over by the candlestick
In Belshazzer's banquet hall
A hand was writin' writin' slowly on the wall

The King froze still were he was sittin'
The finger wrote and having writtin'
Vanished slowly overhead
And this was what the writin' of the Good Lord said:

Mene Mene Tekel, Tekel, Tekel
Mene Mene Tekel, Upharson

The king called all his council table
To read the writin' but they weren't able
In came Daniel, spurned 'em all
And for nothin' told the writin' on the wall

He said "King those words mean stop your flauntin'
You've been weighed and you're found wantin'
All your days is numbered days
The Lord don't like dictators or dictator's ways

The king cried out, "Man you're lyin'
But there was no use denyin'
For he saw those words divine
Shining out just like a cafeteria sign

Mene Mene Tekel, Tekel, Tekel
Mene Mene Tekel, Upharson

Now the king of Babylon was slain
But the children of the Lord remain
All his statues turned to rust
Crumbled are his kingdom and his power to dust

Mene Mene Tekel, Tekel, Tekel
Mene Mene Tekel, Upharson

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:28 PM

Anyone who depends on the Bible as the final, authoritative, and perfect source of all spiritual truth is building a house on very, very shaky ground. And they have not really bothered to think about it independently or look at it in its historical context, in my opinion.

The Bible is like all the other great spiritual books, such as the Baghavad Gita, the K'Ran, the Upanishads, the Book of Mormon, the Buddhist Scriptures, the Torah, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Taoist writings, etc...ad infinitum. It contains much spiritual wisdom, much truth, much mythology, metaphor, and allegory, much that is misleading and really not appropriate to our present culture, and much outright error.

Let the unwary beware of practicing absolutism based on a single book from a long time ago that someone else told them is THE ONE AND ONLY book.

Therein lies the basic problem with organized religion.

There is no such thing as the one and only true spiritual book. It's an ongoing process, and there are great new spiritual books coming forth right now. Plenty of them. If you read them, you will find they make a whole lot more sense than the Bible does, in today's terms. Revelation is a living process. It didn't just happen 2,000 years ago or 3,000 years ago. It's happening right now, and will be happening again and again in the future.