Dances Known And Unknown

Subject: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:50 AM

Yesterday I went to a performance of the play 'Bubblin Brown Sugar'.
Thoughts that occurred to me after attending a performance of the play 'Bubblin Brown Sugar' that showcased 1920s harlem[ New York, USA songs & dances such as "The Stoll" & "Ballin The Jack"

I'm not a dance historian, but it seems to me that
most social dances are a recycling of old dance steps.

In no specific order, here are the dances that immediately come to my mind from my pre-teen & teen years in the late 1950s-1960s:
The Twist
The Pony
The Stroll {a line dance; same as 1920s dance?}
The Jerk
The Mashed Potatos {though I could never really 'do' this dance]
The Cha Cha
The Football {actually late 1960s, early 1970s}

Then there was "The Grind". But, I hasten to say that since I was [and still am] a good 'girl', I really didn't do the grind [which was 'danced' by female/male couples basically standing in place REAL close together and sensuously rockin to the record's beat]

I also remember the names to the R&B line dances "The Hitch Hike" The Locamotion, and "The Madison" but can't remember dancing them.

I recall reading that there was a famous Harlem male dancer who was called 'Snake Hips' {in the 1920s?} I remember seeing 'The Snake' done in the 1960s, but didn't do it since I ws [am] too stiff. People are still doing The Snake today. It's performed by rotating your hips the same way as that core Caribbean soca movement "whine" {whining}[and Brazilian Samba?] is performed. But I also read that in the 18th/19th century and earlier the Snake dance was the same as the Conga processional dance...

When I was a teen I also remember doing a fast partner dance but it beats me what we called it [it wasn't called "jitterbug" or the jitterbug's contemporary name "swing"]. And I also can't remembered what we called 'acceptable' slow partner dances-maybe we just called it slow dancing..

In the 1960s, I also recall seeing [more than doing]the line dance called "The Electric Slide".' This dance is still performed the same way today. A girlfriend of mine refers to it as single Black women's national dance though men, and teens/children of both genders will also join in The Electric Slide line...But playing this record is guaranteed to get most single Black women of all ages out of their chairs and on to the dance floor. A performance of The Electric Slide is featured at the end of the movie "The Best Man" .

I'd be interested in reading what social dances you remember and if you think that some of those dances are based on older dance steps.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: catlova
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:00 AM

Well, there was the Limbo..!

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:21 AM

The Lindy Hop, man!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

Martyn and Gill, who run a Cajun dance night (2nd Sun Gloucester = see cresby.com) are also experts at tradfitional French dances. On one very specialist dance workshop on really really old French dances they came across a "double twirl and don't let go" that ends-up in the postion known variously as the Lantern or Window in Cajun Jive.

Given the history it is not that surprising.

So can we expect RiverMorris any day now?

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:39 AM

It's possible that Upton might qualify for RiverMorris Cressby if it rains too hard!

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Jeanie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:41 AM

Azizi: As well as the dances you mention, here in the UK a very popular 'dance hall' dance in the mid 1960s was the "MARCH OF THE MODS": It involved people circling the dancefloor in rows of about 6 people, kicking twice with right foot, twice with left foot, jumping forward once, backward once, then three trotting steps forward and off you go again....

Here's another mid 1960s one: "La Yenka" - similar steps to the above, brought back to the UK by intrepid holidaymakers in Spain, along with their big straw donkeys. "Baila, baila, baila La Yenka, esso va fantastico !" (or words to that effect....) I wonder if I am the only poor soul who remembers that one ? (A forerunner to the much later and much-danced Macarena and alarmingly similar).

Mid 60s dance halls (such as my haunt, The Nimbus Ballroom, Romford) always ended with "Knees Up Mother Brown".

Now, all the kids get in the way of group dancing is "moshing" in the "moshing pit": charging headlong into each other at great speed and from a great distance. (So I'm told).

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Jeanie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:54 AM

Oooh....does anyone else here remember the "Teddy Bears' Picnic Dance" ? It was once where you moved along to different partners, and danced to the Teddy Bears' picnic tune. I have vague recollections that kissing was involved ;). This was one that was done at "Socials" as opposed to "Dances". In the early to mid 60s in the UK, certainly in my part of the world, there was always a great distinction made between a "Dance" and a "Social". I'm only 51 and I feel sometimes like I come from the Victorian era !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Jeanie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:11 PM

Just found an interesting article on social dance repertoire here on mustrad

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:53 PM

Thanks all for sharing your memories of dances...

However, there's some references that I [and maybe others?] don't quite get...

Maybe others are 'in the know', or those who don't understand don't need to, but..

Mr. Red-with regard to your comment above:

I'm thinking that "RiverMorris" refers to traditional Morris dancing and your comment is a dig on the "RiverDance" show that was a commercial success a couple of years ago..

I'm also guessing that you're saying that given the addition of some feature in Cajun dance called the "double twirl and don't let go" that ends-up in the postion known variously as the Lantern or Window in Cajun Jive", Morris dancers might even end up next being "corrupted by 'modern' or 'commercial'updates....

Is this what you meant? Are you talking about Cajun dancing in New Orleans, Louisiana and that region? And is this dancing done like "square dances" with couples and a caller? Or is it like line dancing? Or partner dancing or all three at various times?..

And M. Red are these dances made up of traditional steps but the the "Lantern or Window in Cajun Jive" some new fangeled step that you're feeling shouldn't be added to the traditional steps??

Also Emma B: Here I reveal that I'm geographically challenged... with regard to your response to Mr. Red.is Upton in England and is your comment sort of a 'put down' [an off-handed joking disparaging comment] on a festival being planned??

Jeanie, thanks also for your comments & the hyperlink to that interesting article..

Not surprisingly, I've got some follow-up questions for you too:

Were the dances you described done by teens and young adults-even the "Knees up Mother Brown" and "The Teddy Bear's Picnic [which I thought were children's songs]?

And..I've heard mention of "moshing" ...does that mean the same thing as what you added ["moshing in the "moshing pit": charging headlong into each other at great speed and from a great distance.]?

I think some of what's going on here is that there are
* cultural changes over time within a particular culture {as in
Jeanie's comments about the distinction between a "Social and
a "Dance"}
* cultural differences within different subsets of the same nation's
culture {such as the cultures of non-Creole African American and
the United States Cajun culture[s]}
* cultural difference or unknowns between members of different
cultures across the world

Part of the richness of Mudcat Cafe is that it draws its menbers & guests from diverse cultures and subcultures all over the world...

Yet this also creates its own challenges...

In the same way that I am asking for clarifications from other posters, if there is something that I've written that isn't understandable to those who aren't familiar with USA/African American culture of the 1950s, 1960s, and on- to the best of my ability, I'll be glad to 'break it down' {meaning provide some explainations}.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

I didn't know the Madison was a line dance. Maybe I just borrowed a couple of steps but in Seattle we danced the Madison with a partner (the moves went in opposite diretions).

Steps and choreographed movement were always difficult for me. Thank goodness for the 60's when we could just dance to the music.

Azizi - You mentioned, "When I was a teen I also remember doing a fast partner dance but it beats me what we called it [it wasn't called "jitterbug" or the jitterbug's contemporary name "swing"].

Wasn't that just Rock n Roll?

I really disliked the so-called slow dances when I was a teen-ager. They seemed to be a mish mash of the fox trot and the waltz. It usually meant that some guy just wanted to get close to you and it had very little to do with dancing.

I love to dance. I once slipped a disc and remember lying in bed wondering if I would ever dance again. I cried big tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Jeanie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

Yes, Azizi - "Knees Up Mother Brown" was danced by teens and young adults at dances specifically for that age-group. I hasten to add, this was in outer London suburbs in an area a lot of families had moved into from the East End of London after the war. It isn't a specifically children's song - but it *was* an East End favourite for all ages. We often also used to end with "Auld Lang Syne" (not just sung on New Year's Eve) getting faster and faster as the circle went in and out. Dances *always* had live music. My experience of these events: 1965 onwards. "Teddy Bear's Picnic" and other dances of that kind (e.g. Gay Gordons) were only danced at Socials, which were often much more family-oriented events, for all age-groups - children to grannies. They were nevertheless good places to meet boys, which is why my friends and I went to them !

As for the "moshing" - yes, that is how it has been described to me by my daughter. It started out as a heavy metal thing, I think. Someone else here may be able to describe more - and so will I in a few weeks time: I'll be witnessing it first hand at a "Battle of the Bands" that my partner is judging. Watch this space (if I survive unscathed).

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bert
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:21 PM

The Creep
The Palais Glide

and going traditional there's
The Floral Dance (or Furry Dance)
Sardanas
Kalamatianos
And what's that Romanian one they do with the handkerchiefs?

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:29 PM

Greetings, Bert and others!

It would be helpful if you would include the approximate years that you remember these dances being performed, and the nation {or cultures} where they were performed.

Thanks!

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM

jeanie,
There are still people who differentiate between a dance and a social.
Our Edinburgh based university group has a weekly social evening, which is very much jeans and t-shirts, off down the pub afterwards, and proper dances, with full highland dress, proper food, and a party afterwards, as well as plenty in between.
   And there's plenty of dances, both known and unknow, and newly devised.

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:36 AM

What about the okey cokey?

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:52 AM

The Creep was sometime in the late Fifties.
The Palais Glide I think was early in the Twentieth Century.

The Floral dance from Helston Cornwall I think is pretty old. The only time I danced it, it seemed to be similar to the Palais Glide, so I don't know if it was an authentic version or a modern reconstruction.

Sardanas are tradional from Spain, but they are danced to brass band music, so they might not go back too far.

Kalamatianos is traditional from Greece. There is a great wealth of Balkan dances but my poor old memory only seems to have latched onto that one.

The one from Romania is Pirenica and is also traditional. It's a great dance but has an odd rhythm 7/8 time or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM

dianavan,I found out this information on the Madison at this website http://www.jitterbuzz.com/dance50.html

[sorry I can't seem to get the hang of the blue clickies}

Here is an excerpt from that passage:

"The Madison is an amusing line dance that originated in the late 1950's. According to Lance Benishek (dance historian), "The Madison probably started in Chicago, although it may have been Detroit or Cleveland. The Baltimore Colts learned it in Cleveland and brought it to Baltimore in 1959." It is danced to the Ray Bryant tune, The Madison Time, with calls for the particular dance sequences provided by Eddie Morrison. Eddie was a Baltimore disc jockey who started calling the steps live on the air. Based on a six count chorus step, The Madison contains several dance sequences which make playful references to 1950s and 1960s Television shows (e.g. The Rifleman) sports stars (e.g. Wilt Chamberlain) and performers (e.g. Jackie Gleason)

The Madison can be seen in the 1988 movie "Hairspray", and the song most used nowadays is the version on the soundtrack of that movie."

end of quote.

That same website provides information on "The Stroll" and "The Hand Jive". I remember doing "The Stroll" and hearing the Johnny Otis song "Willie And The Handjive", but I don't remember anyone doing a dance to it as is described on that site.

Wilson Pickett's 1964 hit "Land of 1,000 dances" also gives some names of dances from that era. See the lyrics to that song:

Land of 1,000 Dances
Wilson Pickett

1-2-3
1-2-3
Ow! Uh! Alright! Uh!

Got to know how to pony
Like Bony Maronie
Mash potato, do the alligator
Put your hand on your hips, yeah
Let your backbone slip
Do the Watusi
Like my little Lucy
Hey! Uh!

Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na
I need somebody to help me say it one time
(Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na )
Wo--ow!

Wow! Uh! You know I feel alright! Huh! I feel pretty good y'all
Uh! Huh!
Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na
Come on y'all, let's say it one more time
(Na na-na-na-na na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na na-na-na-na )
Ooow!

Playing, it is a habit
With long tall Sally
Twistin' with Lucy
Doin' the Watusi
Roll over on your back
I like it like that
Do that Jerk-uh
Watch me work y'all
Ow! Do it!
Wow! Do it!
Just watch me do it

Aah help me
Aah help me
Aah help me
Aah help me
---
http://www.songlyrics.com

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:52 PM

Thanks, Guest for you question about the 'okey cokey'.
In the United States the 'okey cokey'evolved into the children's game "The Hokey Pokey". IMO, this is one of the few adult directed singing/movement games that is still widely played, though it appears to be relegated to pre-school and early primary grades.I'm not sure if it was ever performed as an adult dance in the USA...

I'm curious about this game/dance in Europe...Does anyone have any memories of it?
               
--
The same http://www.jitterbuzz.com/dance50.html site that I quoted before has this chronology of social dances from a Country & Western music website:

"We did a whole lot of searching for information about the evolution of dancing. We found this "Time Line" on a C&.W website somewhere in Texas. (I forgot to write down the source, sorry...). This may not be authoritative, but it sounds right.

So, without further ado, the Evolution of American Dance:
•        pre 1890 Waltz, Quadrille, Minuet, Gavotte
•        1890's Polka, Schottische, Cotton Eyed Joe
•        1900-1920 Foxtrot, Turkey Trot, Peabody, Charleston
•        1920-1930 Jive, Lindy Hop
•        1930-1940 Rumba, Samba, Tango
•        1940-1950 Mambo, West Coast Swing
•        1950-1960 Cha Cha, Bosa Nova, Stroll
•        1960-1970 Monkey, Jerk, Mashed Potato, Madison "

end of quote

This is obviously not a complete list, but it's a place to start for those interested in the subject...

For pre 1890s African American social dances I would add:
Calenda
Juba
The Buzzard Lope {though this may have been a religious dance}
Bamboule
The Pigeon Wing
The Buck & Wing
Walkin the Chalk Line {The Cakewalk}
The Jig
Skinning the cat {a dance step found in many "Juba" rhymes}

and there are many more...

Lynne Fauley Emery's "Black Dance From 1619 to Today" {1973, 2nd edition} is the source I used for these dance names...

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:08 PM

Looking up another subject online, I found this commentary about the etymology of social dances

http://www.takeourword.com/Issue069.html

Spotlight on dances {etymology}

"Listening to the radio on the weekend, we heard a Swedish nykkelharpe virtuoso playing a traditional Swedish dance called the polska. Leaving aside for the moment the discussion of what a nykkelharpe is, it struck us as odd that a dance named polska should be traditionally Swedish. After all, polska is Swedish for "Polish". This got us thinking about dances and how they migrate far beyond their national borders. A real Polish dance is the polonaise (French for "Polish") as are the mazurka (from Polish mazurka, "woman of the Polish province Mazovia", via French masurka), the cracovienne (French for "woman of Cracow") and the varsovienne (French for "woman of Warsaw").

Surprisingly, the polka is not Polish but Czech, the dance being Bohemian and originally called the nimra. It has been suggested that polka was a corruption of Czech pulka, "half", a characteristic feature being its short "half steps". Just to add to the confusion, when this dance was introduced to England in the 1840s, it was considered synonymous with the schottische which takes its name from the German phrase der schottische Tanz, "the Scottish dance". The schottische is not actually Scottish. Its origins are uncertain but are not within the British Isles. And the pronunciation doesn't help, either. Although most people pronounce the word shot-EESH, as though it were French, the French call a schottische a scottish. The highland (or Balmoral) schottische was a later (1880) Scottish invention and the military schottische is American.

The polka is by no means the only instance of linguistic confusion regarding dances. The word tango originally referred to a Spanish gipsy dance of Moorish origins which is completely unrelated to the Argentine tango. Speaking of Moorish dances, the traditional English morris dance is actually a "Moorish dance", probably taking its name from the Dutch Moorsche dans. The dance which is known in the U.S. as the cha-cha is known in Cuba, its country of origin, as the cha-cha-cha. This dance developed from the elegant danzón which itself originated when slaves from Africa played the Spanish contradanza in a syncopated manner. Contradanza is not originally a Spanish word, being the Spanish form of the French contre-danse. This would seem to make sense in French ("against-dance") as two rows of dancers face each other, but actually it is a corruption of the English "country dance".

In the days of slavery in the U.S., African dances introduced by the slaves were sometimes known as Congo minuets. The West Indian limbo dance, in which each dancer in turn attempts to pass under a low bar, is also thought to have been introduced from Africa. It may well have developed from a ritual dance as its name is believed to be a form of legba or legua, the name of the supreme god in certain West African religions. Another dance that has its origin in African religion is the mambo which gets its name from mamaloa, the Haitian creole word for a voudun priestess. The Haitian word for a male voudun priest is babaloa. Just as we turned the Creole word voudun into "voodoo", we also turned babaloa into babaloo. A song by this name will be familiar to all fans of Ricky Ricardo, the conga-drummer husband of Lucy in the "I Love Lucy" show. It may come as a surprise to some that the conga-drum was not so called until the 1920s. In Cuba it is called the tumba or tumbadora, depending on its pitch, and Puerto Rico has a similar, but smaller, drum called the quinto. Most Americans had seen nothing like these drums until the conga dance craze of the 1920s, hence they were all called conga-drums. But whence the term conga dance? It comes from the Spanish word conga meaning" a Congolese woman". Isn't it odd how so many dances are named "woman of [place]"? ...

-snip-

Needless to say, any comments about this article or any other listings of social dances are welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:22 PM

It occurs to be that in this age of YouTube, hyperlinks to dances would definitely enhance this thread.

Here's a "vintage" movie clip of a female vocalist singing "Undecided" followed by a scene of jitterbug [now called "swing"] dancing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJUboQ4NX5A&search=swing%20jitterbug%20dance

Added October 25, 2006; From chas63
"Popular dance clip from "Swing Fever", w Popular dance clip from "Swing Fever", with Jean Veloz; owner of the sweetest switches ever"

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrL12XZuq0&search=lindy%20lindyhop%20charleston%20harlem%20hot%20shots%20herrang%20hellzapoppin%

Hellzapoppin' -- Harlem Congaroos

Added March 07, 2006; From troach

Here's troach's informative comment about this clip:
"From Hellzapoppin' (1941), the hilarious From Hellzapoppin' (1941), the hilarious Hollywood production directed by H.C. Pootter and starring zany commdians Ole Olsen and Chic Johnson, this clip features Rex Stewart (co), Jap Jones (tb), Elemer Fane (cl), unknown (ts), Slim Galliard (p,g,tap-dancing), Slam Stewart (b), Cee Pee Johnson (d), The Harlem Congaroos (dancers, AKA Whitey's Lindyhoppers).

http://www.savoystyle.com/h...
"This movie, based on a hit Broadway play, showcases Whitey's Lindy Hoppers dancing the most famous and most spectacular Lindy Hop scene ever preserved on film. The dancing was choreographed by Frankie Manning.

"The scene starts when musicians Slim Galliard and Slam Stewart, in workmen's garb, discover some musical instruments while supposedly delivering a package backstage. They play a few tentative notes, and a spontaneous, swinging jam starts cooking . More backstage 'workers' join the jam, including Rex Stuart on trumpet and C.C. Johnson on the 'bongo drums'. The music builds in excitement until, as if out of nowhere, four Lindy Hopping couples, dressed in overalls and uniforms, swing out into the cameras at a frenetic tempo. Each couple executes amazing acrobatic shines. Then the group unites for precision ensemble work filmed at an angle that emphasizes legwork and speed.

"The choreography and the dancing are as near to perfect Lindy Hop as you can see anywhere! The scene will take your breath away no matter how many times you see it. It is no wonder that this film was responsible for the simultaneous revival of Lindy Hop in Sweden and Britain in the 1980's.

"An interesting sidenote: Whitey's Lindy Hoppers' routine in Hellzapoppin' was originally danced and choreographed to different music, namely 'Jumping at the Woodside'. Universal Studios had a composer who was on staff write new music for the routine."

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KJ_eekxzn4&mode=related&search=

50s Charleston in Harlem

Added April 26, 2006; From troach
"Most likely at the Savoy Ballroom -- Jaz Most likely at the Savoy Ballroom -- Jazz steps & 50s Charleston."

****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQYfmLed94Q&search=lindy%20lindyhop%20charleston%20harlem%20hot%20shots%20herrang%20hellzapoppin%

Whitey's Lindyhoppers Compilation

Added March 15, 2006 ;From troach

"Clips of Whitey's Lindyhoppers w/ history.

First Clip -- Hot Chocolates (1941)
Duke Ellington Orchestra
featuring Ben Webster
Whitey's Lindy Hoppers
(In order of appearance):
William Downes and Frances "Mickey" Jones
Norma Miller and Billy Ricker
Al Minns and Willa Mae Ricker
Ann Johnson and Frankie Manning

Second Clip -- A Day at the Races
Whitey's Lindy Hoppers :
Dorothy Miller (Norma Miller's sister)and Johnny (last name?)
Norma Miller and Leon James
Snooky Beasley and Willa Mae Ricker
Ella Gibson and George Grenidge ... "

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:09 PM

Fwiw, when I started this thread almost two years ago, being a newbie, I thought that only discussions about songs belonged above the BS line.

Now that I'm a little more seasoned as to what is and is not appropriate above or below the BS line subjects, and now this thread has been re-freshed, it occurs to me that it belongs above the line with other threads about music, dance history, folk culture etc.

Would a Mudcat moderator please move this thread above the line and remove the BS heading?

Thank you.

You are welcome. Mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:43 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1mLDfosN9M

Added August 27, 2006; From Bubaby

"Chubby Checker is the stage name of Ernest Evans best known for popularizing the dance the Twist with his 1960 song "The Twist". He is the only recording artist to have five albums in the Top 12 all at once and the only artist to have a song reach #1 twice - "The Twist". He is hailed by many to have changed the way we dance to the beat of music since 1959. He recorded for Cameo-Parkway Records in the 60's and later was granted a new lease of fame when he recorded a new version of "The Twist" with rap trio The Fat Boys. Besides the "The Twist" some of his songs include "Slow Twistin'" (with Dee Dee Sharp), "Pony Time," "Let's Twist Again," and "Limbo Rock." ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:28 PM

Hey, how come nobody's mentioned The Funky Chicken? (not to be confused with that monstrosity The Bird Dance!) ... Don't tell me you're all too old for that ... last time I gave it a shot was 5-10 years ago ... got my name on the list for knee replacements the next morning ...

Speaking of the Twist, I remember as a kid seeing Chubby Checker on TV - probably from our local Windsor, Ontario, station, CKLW, as all the Detroit acts made an appearance there - he was demonstrating the Twist, and giving a little lesson: "You move your arms like you're drying your back with a towel. You move your foot like you're grinding out a cigarette." I learned three things for the price of one with that: how to dry my back, how to grind out a cigarette, and how to do the twist. Thank you Chubby Checker!

Couple years back I was down in South Carolina. Driving into some little village, I noticed a little road sign that announced it was the birthplace of Chubby Checker ...

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:29 PM

It's amazing how bird dances keep on being recycled...

There's the "Buzzard Lope","Cuttin the Pigeon Wing"; "The "Chicken", and "The Funky Chicken". And I'm sure I'm forgetting some more.

Wasn't there a dance called "The Bird?"

But it appears that the big novelty dance nowadays is "Chicken Noodle Soup" Okay, this might not be a "bird dance" per se, but it has the word "chicken" in it

:o)

"Chicken Noodle Soup" looks like a fun dance to do {and to watch being done}, But I've choosen not to post any links to videos of it-though they're sure are a lot of them-because the hip-hop flavored song that folks are dancing to includes the n word and other language I don't approve of...

But you can find a number of "chicken noodle soup" videos on YouTube if you're so inclined to see how the dance is done...

One thing's for sure-The "Chicken Noodle Soup" dance is big today, but probably it will soon be replaced with another dance craze. And in ten years or less, another bird dance will surface again maybe because we admire the freedom birds have to rise above it all. Or maybe because we admire the physical beauty of birds.

Or maybe just because.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:59 PM

Here's a link to a video of "The Electric Slide"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs30XpTJ32w&search=Electric%20Slide%20Idiot%20Dance

Added July 18, 2006 ;From celticelve
"The Electric Slide appears out of nowhere at The Institute for Student Leadership 2006 at Rowan University"

I believe that Rowan University is in New Jersey.

****

And here's a link to another version of "The Electric Slide":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thmk4ycICuE&search=Electric%20Slide%20Idiot%20Dance

Eddy Farm 2006
Added July 23, 2006 ; From ShiaBia

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:29 AM

Hi Azizi
I have more on the Buzzard lope if you'd like. It's to late to dig out what I've got on it though I can tell you that Lydia Parrish collected & reported on it from the Georgia Sea Islands back in the 40's after yrs of searching thinking that it was lost. It's not religious dance & it does go back to slavery days. One of the songs that it danced to is "Throw My Body Anywhere" ("in that ol field").

Barry

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:04 AM

Thanks for refreshing this interesting thread. I wasn't around here when it started.
Was your 'quick dance' the jive? Or is that the same as the jitterbug? I remember jiving coming in (mid 50s) and it was thought to be 'not proper dancing'. Or maybe it was the quickstep.
I asked my husband about Knees up Mother Brown recently, he used to go to a class that taught ballroom dancing and had a 'dance' after the lesson. He says that it was just joining hands in a ring and going in and out lifting your knees high on each step.That fits my vague youthful memories from church socials in the late 40s, early 50s(can't remember if they were called socials or just parties). We also did the Hokey Cokey.I used to teach that at Playgroup (3 - 5 year olds) and I occasionally finish a barn dance with it if the crowd seems right. My daughter thought it appropriate for the barn dance that celebrated her wedding.
My husband complains that I do it wrong, my version has a chorus where you join hands and rush into the middle singing -
Oh the hokey cokey
Oh the hokey cokey
Oh the hokey cokey
Knees bend, arms strerch Ra ra ra

his version Oh kiss me in the middle.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:10 AM

The words to Knees up Mother Brown (which occasionally were directed at my mother, since that was our name)

Knees up Mother Brown
Knees up Mother Brown
Under the table you must go
Ee i ee i ee i o
If I catch you bending I'll saw your legs right off
Knees up knees up don't get the breeze up
Knees up Mother Brown
(this was followed, to a different tune, by
Oh my what a rotten song,what a rotten song, what a rotten song,
Oh my what a rotten song, what a rotten singer toooo)

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:06 AM

Just a note on the 19th century dances above: apparently the Schottische was so named because it used a rhythmic device common in Scottish music and known as the Scots Snap. The is when quaver pairs become unbalanced and the first note becomes a semi-quaver while the second lengthens by a semi-quaver. The strathspey (a regional version of a reel?) uses this device.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 08:55 AM

Barry Finn wrote "Hi Azizi..I have more on the Buzzard lope if you'd like".

Yes, Barry. I'd love for you to share information about the Buzzard Lope on this thread and elsewhere I'm sure. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:14 PM

Subject: RE: sugar babe
From: Stewie - PM
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 06:21 PM

In this thread, there was considerable discussion about the meaning of 'buzzard lope'. I knew I had seen something about this somewhere, and I finally remembered where. The following might throw some light on the matter. Alan Lomax recorded the great Bessie Jones of the Georgia Sea Islands leading a song called 'The Buzzard Lope'. It has been reissued in the Lomax 'Southern Journey' series on Rounder - the final volume, volume 13, 'Earliest Times: Georgia Sea Island Songs for Everyday Living' Rounder CD 1713. The song itself has the words 'buzzard lope' only in its title. Lomax noted:
Bessie Jones leads a most beautiful and interesting African-American litany, which may be one of the most intact pieces of African dance in North America. It makes reference to a time when slaves were not given a proper burial. 'Throw me anywhere, Lord, in that old field' are the words of a slave identifying with Jesus at Golgotha, saying that, although he may be thrown in a field like carrion for the buzzards to eat, Jesus owns and chooses him.
While a ring of singers claps out the refrain ['In that old field'], a coat representing carrion, is dropped in the centre. A male dancer, his shoulders hunched up around his ears, his arms spread out, dipping, waving and thrusting forward his head with fierce gestures, comes high stepping into the ring. He is the buzzard. He spots the carrion and suddenly stoops over, crouching and circling lower and lower, his head thrust forward like a bird's, approaching and fluttering away, until finally he swoops low and snatches the cloth with his teeth or fingers and whirls away like a bird of prey with its meat. The cloth is replaced and the dance repeated, each dancer enacting the part of the buzzard in his own way.
Bessie Jones gave a spoken introduction to the song:
Now this song, 'The Buzzard Lope', is one of the old plays that we had, as though the buzzard had found some carrion. And we playin' that this thing lyin' on the floor here is the carrion. And this boy here is acting as the buzzard, as he goin' around, and he goin' to pick out the carrion's eye, whether he's a cow or a dog or whatever he is. He going to pick out his eye, then he going to pull out his tail, and then he's going to [get] him after awhile, and he's going to run the dogs from him. This is not our real Buzzard Lope boy tonight, but his brother.
Stewie.


Subject: Lyr Add: THROW MY BODY ANYWHERE^^
From: Barry Finn - PM
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 08:22 PM

From the Georgia Sea Islands comes a song from slave times on the Plantations, when the slaves were discarded after falling down on the job.
Throw My Body Anywhere
Throw my body anywhere, in that ol field
Throw my body anywhere, in that ol field
Don't care where you throw me, in that ol field
Don't care where you throw me, in that ol field
Go down to the levee, in that ol field
Go down to the levee, in that ol field
So long as Jesus loves me, in that old field
So long as Jesus loves me, in that ol field
Barry

The above version is Bessie Jones from the Lomax collection the same as cited above by Stewie. The following is also from Bessie Jones but from a recording "Georgia Sea Island Songs" on 'New Worlds Records'

Throw My Body Anywhere
Throw my body anywhere, in that ol field

Don't care where you throw me, in that ol field

Since my Jesus owns me, in that old field

You may beat me an' bang me,,,,,

Since my Jesus save me

Don't care where you treat me

Since King Jesus meet me

Don't care how you do me

Since my Jesus choose me



Additionally the notes add (differently from above):
"Common enough in the West Indies, such miming dances are rare in America. The song tells of a time the slave was not properly buried when he died but was simply cast out in a field".

Lydia Parrish also collected & reported of the dance the Buzzard Lope in her "Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands". She says "This group used an old religious song with narrative lines of a suitable character. In ante-bellum days the slaves called the graveyard 'the ole field'". The song being close to what's already been given, called "Throw Me Anywhere". She also has another song "In That old Field" sung in a minor key that she relates to a dance but doesn't connect this to any dance in particular much less the Buzzard Lope even though it's clearly related to the others already given. She does mention the song being of a spiritual or religious nature but not the dance itself.

I hope this puts a little more light on this for you Azizi

Barry

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM

Thanks, Barry. I very much appreciate that imformation. I have Bessie Jones'{and Bess Lomax Hawes'} book "Step It Down"-though its been hiding from me for some time.

However, to add to the information you've presented, I'd like to quote a passage about the Buzzard Lope from Lynne Fauley Emery's "Black Dance-From 1619 to Today" {Princeton Book Company, 1988; pps 93-94. originally published in 1972}:

"Survivals of African dance were found in the so-called animal dances seen in American.These dances took mamy forms, but the one mentioned most frequently by ex-slaves was a dance called the Buzzard Lope. Many of the ex-slaves in the Sea Island region remembered during the Buzzard Lope, but very few described it...

Edward Adams, in his "Congoree Sketches", described the exploits of Big Charleston as narrared by a Negro named Tad:

"De first time I see Big Charleston at a dance...You could hear 'em laughin' and talkin' a mile. Dey come to de road jumpin' to de drum and steppin' as high as a man's head. And as de night wored on you ought er seen some od dem niggers cut de buck and de buzzard lope and sidin' 'round dem sisters like er rootser 'round er hen."
[Chapel Hill, N.C University of North Carolina Press, 1927]

The Buzzard Lope gad been known to song-collecir Lydia Parrish since 1915. M. J. Herskovits told her that he had seen a similar dance done in Dahomey. She described the Buzzard Lope seen in the Georgia Island as follows:

"on Sapeko Island, I found in the Johnson family a combination fo the old dance forms with rahten modern steps than the original African pantomime warranted. Of the twins, Naomi did the patting while Isaac did the dancing; an older brother rhythmically called out the cues in a sharp staccato, and another one lay on the floor of the wide veranda representing a dead cow. Anyone who has seen turkey buzzards disposing of "carr'on" will recognize the aptness of the following directions:

March aroun'!    {the cow}
Jump across!    {see if she's daid}
Get the eye!    {always go for that first}
So glad!         {cow daid}
Get the guts!    {they like them next best}
Go to eatin'!    {on the meat}
All right-cow mos' gone!
Dog comin'!
Scare the dog!
Look around for more meat!
Alright!-Belly full!
-"Goin to tell the res'"
[Slave Songs Of The Georgia Sea Islands, Creative Age Press, 1942]

The parenthetical asides were given to Miss Parrish by the Negroes who were performing the dance.

Other animal dannces mentioned with the Buzzard Lope were the Turkey Trot, Snake Hip, and those mentoned by Emma and Mary Stevens of Sunbury, Georgia:

"We do git tuh gedduh an hab dabce ab oagtues ab bug suppahs, we does duh Snake Hip and duh Buzzard Lope. An addalas dance we did duh Fish Tail an duh Fish Bone an duh Camel Walk"
[Georgia Writers Project "Drums and Shadows"]

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:01 PM

Also see this excerpt from http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3buzzardlope1.htm

The Buzzard Lope

The Buzzard Lope was similar to the more modern Eagle Rock Dance and was very popular in the South and most likely related to the W. African Buzzard dance. Sunbury Georgia was the first discovery of this dance but may not have originated there.

The Buzzard Lope used outstretched arms like a bird and consisted of a shuffle step and a little buzzard like hop. The dance is said to be similar to the West African Buzzard Dance. It's original form is representing a Turkey Buzzard getting ready to eat a dead Mule (some report a Cow). Many people in the sidelines watching the dance would do a 'Patting', or make a rhythm by slapping (patting) their thighs, etc.

while someone would call out the cues (see bottom)...

THE BUZZARD LOPE
A New Dance Step That Has Captured All of Georgia

(New York Tribune)
An aged Georgia darky had lost his Mule and went out one Sunday to bury him. Arriving within sight of the body he came upon a group of forty-nine Buzzards. Forty-eight of them flew away. The Forty-ninth, whose feathers were gray with age, or early piety or something, declined to retire. Looking straight at the old darky he spread his wings --- they were nine feet from tip to tip --- tucked his tail under his body, drew in his chin and proceeded to lope around the dead carcass.

The old dar key had been a wonderful dancer in slavery days, and prided himself on knowing every step that anybody else knew. But here was a brand new step he thought, that nobody else knew. It wrenched his soul to see that the ancient buzzard loping there at his case, as he had never seen any creature on earth could lope. He stood aghast.

The spade fell from his hand. He spread his arms, bent his body in the middle, stiffened every joint except those at the elbow, wrist, ankle and knee and forgetting both the day and the place, followed the Buzzard around the Mule for four solid hours, keeping step with the bird. At dusk the Buzzard flapped his wings and went to roost. while the old man loped for home, feeling younger than he had in years.

This is the story of the Buzzard Lope steps that captured everybody. Clubs were formed all over the state to learn the Buzzard Lope and for the time being, all unhappiness over the Negro postmasters was forgotten. The Buzzard Lope beggars description. You cannot appreciate it till you see it. It ought to go on stage for the benefit of the whole community.

From the Morning Oregonian Newspaper: (4/17/1890) ... page 12
   
Note: This page uses some racial slurs and statements that in no way reflect this site owners feelings. They are used here in reference to Historical context only."

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:15 PM

To change the subject a bit, I'd like to return to the Knees Up Mother Brown song/dance.

I turned to my friend Google and found the following YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I29MwJ4UNTQ

Petula Clark & Noel Harrison - Knees Up Mother Brown
Added November 11, 2006; From DooWopMan

-snip-

My question to Mo and/or any other folks who may be able to respond is-is this the version of Knees Up Mother Brown that you recall, and is that dance that Petula Clark and Noel Harrison perform the "Knees Up Mother Brown" dance?

Also, I found "Knees Up Mother Brown" sung at a sports event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An2SeBUCjfU
Added February 22, 2006; From hammer15

Hammer15 posted this comment: "Nice to see this being sung once more by Hammers. sung after beating ipswich and heading for promotion.....WEST HAM!

My question to Mo and/or anyone here who may know is what-if anything-is the connection between "Knees Up Mother Brown" and West Ham"?

Also, I found these lyrics to "Knees Up Mother Brown" online at
http://www.songsforteaching.com/folk/kneesupmotherbrown.htm

There came a girl from France
Who didn't know how to dance
The only thing that she could do
Was knees up Mother Brown.

Oh, knees up Mother Brown
Knees up Mother Brown
Knees up, knees up, never let the breeze up,
Knees up Mother Brown.

Hopping on one foot
Hopping on one foot
Hopping, hopping, never stopping
Hopping on one foot.

Hopping on the other
Hopping on the other
Hopping, hopping, never stopping
Hopping on the other.

Whirling round and round
Whirling round and round
Whirling, whirling, never twirling
Whirling round and round.

Oh, knees up Mother Brown
Knees up Mother Brown
Knees up, knees up, never let the breeze up,
Knees up Mother Brown!

-snip-

That website also includes a link to a audio clip of "Knees Up Mother Brown" sung by the popular male vocalist for children-Raffi.

My question-to Mo and/or anyone else- are these lyrics familiar to you [in Great Britain} or are they an Americanized children's version of that song?

Thanks in advance for the information!

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM

The dancing that Noel Harrison & Petula Clark are doing in that clip is reminiscent of the dancing that Dick Van Dyke does with the chimney sweeps on the rooftops in Mary Poppins. Come to think of it, that was a great scene ...

Wonder if Noel Harrison borrowed from Van Dyke or if that is a type of comic dancing that was fairly common (which I figure is the case; has a vaudeville/music-hall look to it).

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 03:43 AM

The only connection with West Ham United Football club is that it is an East London club and Knee's Up Mother Brown is generally considered to be a Cockney song (a Cockney is a particular inhabitant of London). It's a bit of a stereotype really, I haven't heard anyone outside of TV land singing it for years and even at our family parties it was only ever done in a half-hearted joking way as part of a larger medley of old songs.

The song that Pet and Noel did starts off differently to the versions I know and the chorus is different too. In my memory no one ever did more than one verse but the chorus could be repeated indefinitely. That's the sort of dance they did though. I wonder if it's a debased form of step dancing rather like the parodies people now do of Irish dancing.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 07:47 AM

Yes I agree with Manitas.
The way West Ham sang it was as I remember it.
I thought maybe Pet didn't get her knees high enough and pointed her toes too much but I've not seen it done for over 50 years so...
The version you printed has all the hallmarks of something adapted for teaching children (I've done that kind of thing myself); folk tradition at work. Never heard that version and it loses the Mother Brown story that Pet sang. Pet's version rings a faint bell though I didn't remember it.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:06 AM

Thanks, thurg and Manitas for that info re "Knees Up Mother Brown"
It just occurs to me that the words "knees up" refer to the dance movement. Okay, sometimes I'm slow on the uptake. For instance, it wasn't until I saw The Wizard Of Oz umpteen times that I realized that the scare crow, tin man, and cowardly lion, were the farm workers who Dorothy knew back in Kansas...

So...moving right along...

Manitas, you wrote: I wonder if [the dance that Petula and Noel did in that video]is a debased form of step dancing rather like the parodies people now do of Irish dancing".

When I read the term "step dancing" I thought of the performance activity called steppin'. Some folks have considered steppin as a dance activity. Therefore, I'm taking the liberty of including information about it in this "Dances known and unknown" thread.

Steppin' is a high energy, percussive, syncopated, synchronized, competitive performance art that originated with African American university Greek letter fraternities and sororities in the late 1960s-early 1970s. There are both graduate and undergraduate of university based Black Greek letter organizations. Some people are very active in these organizations during their entire life.

Since the 1990s steppin has expanded beyond those Greek letter membership organizations to youth in high schools, middle schools, community organizations, and churches. There are also non-African American step teams, and non-Black members in traditionally African American Greek letter fraternities & sororities. Traditionally step teams are male or female. However, some school based, church, or community based teams are coed.

Some say that the true origin of steppin is the South African Zulu boot dance, and they may be some truth to that. University based military drill teams are probably also a source for early step team moves. In addition, some of the body stances used by step teams -such as leaning forward with knees bent instead of standing erect is traditional to many forms of West African dancing.   

Step teams strive to "brand" their own style. They have their own colors, poses, chants, calls, personas, hand shakes, hand signals, logos, mascots, party walks, sayings, and they have R&B or hip-hop records that are most closely associated with their sorority or fraternity. Steppin is a HUGE creative form of cultural expression.

In addition to competitive Greek letter 'step shows' on university campuses and in Black communities, throughout various parts of the USA there are also community step show competitions for these non-Greek organizations.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 09:06 AM

For those interested in getting a sense of what steppin looks like, here are four videos:

Step
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI6k7vd4Qs&NR

Added July 04, 2006; From swtytwty9988

{This video shows a young girl demonstrating step moves; including body patting-which was called "pattin juba" during slavery}

**

[Girl's] Step Team
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDM_R529UQ4&mode=related&search=

Added April 08, 2006; From clonebob

**
Iota [fraternity] SFSU step show pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZodkMUwotqo&mode=related&search=

Added July 18, 2006; From zeketwo26

**
Aka Fall Fest 2006
Added September 03, 2006; From neworleanscity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvt9d59OtKA&search=AKA%20Stepping

This video {and the one featuring the Iotas} documents the way that audience cheer on a specific step show performer or the entire step team. Audiences can also express their disapproval of a particular move, of a particular member of the step team, or of the step team itself.

In the beginning of the show the AKA step team does a choreographed dance that includes some sorority hand movements.

Note the women performing the chant "It's a serious matter". This is a signature AKA chant, and the way the women hold their palms extended to the side is a signature AKA move. No other sorority will use step move unless they are engaging in some friendly paroding of the AKA's {"parody other groups is a subset of steppin-male groups parody other male group, females parody other females. Btw, the girls' exaggerated switching and fixing other's hair in between the performances-and the words of the chant-reflect the AKA public persona that AKA stands for finer womanhood..."fine" here meaning "looking good" among other things.*

At the end of the show the girls do a stroll {"party walk"} to a recorded hip-hop song. Certain stroll moves, and certain recorded songs have become associated with specific groups.

* Fwiw, Alpha Kappa Alpha, Inc {AKA} is the sorority that I belong to, though I've been very very inactive for decades.

;o)

**

For those who are interested, examples of sorority & fraternity chants and other steppin and party walk videos can be found on my website at http://www.cocojams.com/fraternity_and_sorority_chants.htm

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 08:25 PM

The Madison dance was mentioned earlier in the thread.

At one point when Mudcat was down, I went "YouTubing", and found this video:

the madison line dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysF9dgwO6w

Added October 22, 2006 ; From QuantumEntropyZodak
"spencer leads the madison line dance in spencer leads the madison line dance in central park".

And I mentioned that it was attending a performance of Bubbling Brown Sugar that got me thinking of dances that I've known {and wondering about dances other folks have known}.

Well, I also found this video as a result of my "youtubing":

Bubbling Brown Sugar - The Stroll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvTnvWuc3Ss

Added April 25, 2006 ;From camcroft;
20th Anniversary European touring compan 20th Anniversary European touring company of Broadway Musical Bubbling Brown Sugar performing the Stroll. Directed and choreographed by Billy Wilson

-snip-

Doesn't this performance of the Stoll look a lot like The Cakewalk?
And is The Stroll an updated form of "The Cakewalk"?

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 10:25 PM

Somebody did sort of a cool thing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCqPIp3-zSo   - taken the West Side Story choreography and put it to more contemporary music. Probably not everybody's cup of tea, but I found it compelling in kind of a weird way.

Cab Calloway does lots of steps that show up in later routines. Start with Minnie the Mooch from the sidebar to the Madison Line Dance vid. above.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bert
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 10:45 PM

Regarding Knees Up Mother Brown; in England in the Sixties you couldn't go to a dance where they didn't do the knees up.

They joined around in a circle, arms around their shoulders and did "The Knees up". Although the tune was different, the dance was very similar to the French grape treading dance "La Fricasee". The knees were raised higher though in "Mother Brown".

As an aside, the tune to La Fricasee is very similar to "The Estonian Snuff Dance". Makes me think that dances don't exist on their own.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bert
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 10:52 PM

It's me again. This time it's a question for our own Azizi.

Why don't black people go to American Square Dances?

When I first learned American Square Dancing, in England of all places, it was not unusual to see the occasional black person at a dance. But since I've been in The States I've never seen a black person doing American Square dancing.

Is it an inverse snobbery thing, of black people not wanting to do a "honky dance", or is it because they are made to feel unwelcome?

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 11:02 PM

Why does it have to be "either-or"? Isn't it possible that there are reasons that have nothing to do with negative feelings on anyone's part?

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Bert
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 11:06 PM

Oh, it doesn't have to be either/or, it's just that those were the only two reasons I could think of. If there is another reason, I would be happy to know it.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:24 AM

Hi! That's an interesting question, Bert. Here are my off the cuff responses -with the obvious givens that a} I don't speak for anyone but myself, and b} there probably are African Americans who love to do Western Square Dancing:

1. Square dancing is foreign to me and I think it's unfamiliar to many Black Americans. I think that many if not most African Americans don't even know what "square dancing" is. Googling that term, I learned that American Square Dancing is called "Western Square Dancing". I'm from the Eastern region of United States and didn't grow up watching adults and/or teens and/or children doing square dancing...There are African Americans who live in Oklahoma, Arizona, and other Western USA states. Maybe square dancing is more familiar to these Black people than is to Black people who are from other regions of the USA.

2. {this may be a subset of #1}. I think that many {most?} Black Americans consider square dancing to be a dance for "squares" {meaning "un-hip"} people. But I think this is also true for many White Americans and Americans of other races & ethnicities {"ethnicities" here meaning "Latinos"}. Perhaps this is another manifestation of the American motif {regardless of race} to consider city things to be good and country things to be bad {bad here meaning not good}. I think that Americans in general have been socialized by the mass media to look down upon country folk, and country folk ways. And I believe that square dancing is considered a country dance form. I'm not talking right or wrong here but what I think exist in our attitudes and our hearts and minds and souls.

3. I think many {most} African Americans don't cherish the past.

I think that African Americans are innovators, not traditionalists. Note how readily we coin new slang, and new social dances {or new combinations of old dance steps} and how quickly we drop the old slang and the old dances. Of course, "slang" and "social dances" are only two manifestations of the core "out with the old, in with the new" attitudes and practices that African Americans have. You can name most any area of expression-including personal names-and I think you'll find Black Americans to be more innovative in area than traditionalist. And I think that we are more innovative than other Americans, and I think we think that is good.

Yet, I personally would like to see more cherishing our past...but before I wonder off into that subject let me return to a consideration of African Americans non-involvement with Square dancing...

4. I think that most African Americans would consider the music played for square dancing to be "White" music {"White" here meaning not percussive enough, with too little bass and too many fiddles}.And I think that we judge that music to be not "our kind of music" without really knowing any examples of that music.

I think that most {many?}African Americans have an adversion to square dance music because we think that it is too much like what we consider minstrel music to be {I think that many African Americans have negative reactions to banjos/fiddles because of their symbolism of the slavery stereotypes of the "happy darkies"}, but again-these are my opinions and not necessarily the opinions of others...

5.I think that-if we gave it any thought, which I don't think we do-most African Americans would consider Western Square dancing to be much too restrictive. I think that Black Americans don't like to adhere too closely to "set" patterns in couples dancing. For instance, I found the following description of a square dancing pattern-

"Name: Dixie Style To Ocean Wave
Starting Formation: facing couples or facing tandems.

TIMING: heads or sides to the wave, 6; all 4 couples to the wave, 8.

From facing couples,the right hand dancer steps forward and to the left to become the lead dancer in a tandem. Lead dancers join right hands and pull by. Moving to the other trailing dancer, each extends a left hand and touches to a left hand mini wave and turns one quarter (90). New center dancers join right hands and form a left hand ocean wave.
STYLING: Lead dancers initially pulling by in the center should use handshake hold as in right and left grand. When forming mini waves with trailing dancers, dancers must adjust to the right, using hands-up position and same styling as in swing thru.

http://www.squaredancecd.com/sdance.htm

-snip-

A diagram is also included...It sounds like too much work and it sounds too limiting, and maybe it's because it's a couple thing-or it's a square thing instead of a circle thing...

6. Seriously, I think research should be done about the meaning of geometric figures as they relate to dance styles. I think African Americans traditionally danced in the midst of circles of on-lookers {Descriptions of those dances from slavery on are documented in print. And you can see video images from the 1950s or so of African American people standing in circles watching really hot dancers in the center of the circle doing their thing...I think that space constrains are one reason why that natural formation doesn't occur at dances in contemporary times..But the cult of the individual is another reason why dancing in the middle of circles {as oppossed to dancing in circles} doesn't occur now...I wrote "the cult of the individual" knowing that most of social dances-with the exception of line dances-occur with couples {usually a male and a female}. However, though they are dancing together, they also are dancing apart-and often don't even touch each other...So, I'll add this preference for individualized dancing as another reason why African Americans don't do square dancing..

7. In contrast to square dancing with couples, and speaking of geometric forms in dancing,African Americans have been "in to" the line dance/instructional dance genre of music for quite some time {at least from the 1950s and probably before that}. Previously in this discussion I've mentioned my sense that the Electric Slide is becoming or already is a traditional part of the social dance phase of African American wedding receptions. But there are other contemporary African American line dances-the "Cha Cha" Slide, and "The Perculator" come to mind but there are many more...These dances are done to uptempo "Bass" music, or "House" music and are more common among Black adults in certain cities than others...For instance, my early 30 year old daughter loooves line dancing, but she tells me that line dancing is very rarely done at [night club] dances in Pittsburgh, but much more often done in Cleveland, Ohio which is two hours from Pittsburgh..However, I'm told that a Pittsburgh senior citizen high rise not far from where we live has a very active line dance group. And I'm also told that a local YMCA is sponsoring a free line dance class one evening a week.

I think that-more than square dancing-line dancing is a group dance style that seems to allow for individual expression...maybe more so than square dancing does....but again I don't know beans about square dancing...

8.I think there is something to the view that many {most} Black people don't want to be the "only one" {meaning the only Black person} in social settings because of fears of discrimination and/or fears about physical safety, and/or other fears more personal than those.

But that begs the question why didn't we {African Americans} start our own square dance groups? After all, when we were excluded from fraternities & sororities-for instance-we started our own fraternities & sororities... But I think that the reason why we didn't start square dance societies and the reason why we don't hold square dance functions is because we don't want to.

Of course, some of this could be completely off base. And, of course, none of this could be true. But these are my responses at this point in time.

And I'm sticking to them, until I think otherwise.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:28 AM

Hey, thurg, here's your clicky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCqPIp3-zSo


Added May 13, 2006 ; From mcas1dans
"West Side Story is a timeless choreography, taking the choreography from 1961 and putting tadays music to it makes it look as though it was choreographed today. Reel One film festival finalist."

-snip-

For whatever reason, the video froze on me. I'll check it out later-at what might be a more reasonable hour to be up & at it...

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:40 AM

And, btw, Bert, I could tease you about your "our own Azizi" comment, but I won't.

My sense of humor is intact even at this late date {or this early morning hour}, as the case may be...

So, Imma let you slide on that one, buddy.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 03:54 AM

Some interesting thoughts, Azizi.

Maybe it needs the right setting. Last Summer at a midsummer celebration at the Sage in Gateshead, there was a group of American visitors, many of them black. And I saw a number of Black American youngsters thoroughly enjoying themselves doing English Country dancing to a typical ceilidh band (If John Kirkpatrick can ever be called typical)

FYI, John Kirkpatrick is known over here as a master of the button accordion and anglo concertina.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM

If your googling tells you that Square Dancing means Western Squares it is only telling part of the story. People who call and dance traditional squares would grind their teeth, and feel that their dance is being hijacked.
There are Eastern squares, and Southern squares too. I'm not an expert on which is which, but one form is more closely phrased with the music (i.e. do this in 2 bars, then that in 2). Some are obviously related to Irish set dances that evolved from the French C18th quadrilles. In the Irish versions each village produced their own set, slightly different from the rest and though the figures were fixed there was variation in that men could put in their own 'battering'(steps) at will (traditionally women never battered, they do now).
Western squares have been standardised so that wherever you go they are the same. New figures have been invented and given names so a short phrase with set the dancers off on an 8 bar or more sequence. To learn this you have to go to classes (basic, mainstream, plus and more). The other feature of Western squares in the UK is the dressing up in cowboy boots or frilly petticoats. You don't get that in people who dance traditional squares.
All sorts of squares are fun. Dancing in a set with other couples can give you a real high when it all works. And a good giggle when it falls apart and you grab a partner, 'square the set' and wait for the next turn of the dance to join in again.

Which is no reason for anyone to do it if it's not their thing. I'm sure you get as much satisfaction out of your dancing.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:01 AM

This has just been forwarded to me on a dance callers forum.
Results of an Italian study show that dancing, specifically waltzing, can have significant benefits for patients with heart failure.
Dr Romualdo Belardinelli, from Lancisi Heart Institute in Ancona, and colleagues have already found that slow and fast waltzing benefits patients with coronary heart disease or those recovering from a heart attack.
To see if the benefits of dancing extend to patients with heart failure, the researchers studied 110 such patients who were assigned to take part in either supervised aerobic exercise or waltzing sessions three times a week for 8 weeks.
At the end of the study period, the team found that the patients'
heart rates were similar in each group, at 110 and 113 beats per minute in the exercise and dancing groups, respectively.
    Peak exercise capacity, breathing rates and cardiovascular fitness all improved to a similar extent in each group.
However, the participants in the dancing group experienced significantly greater improvements in their quality of life than those in the aerobic exercise group, particularly in aspects relating to emotions such as happiness.
"Our research suggests that dancing is a new choice of exercise training for patients with heart failure," said Dr Belardinelli, speaking at the American Heart Association Scientific Sessions in Chicago, Illinois.
He added: "This is good news because if we want patients to take part in lifelong aerobic exercise at least three times a week, it should be something that's fun and makes them want to continue."


--

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 01:06 PM

Azizi - That was a very interesting response to the square-dancing question, and what you say makes a lot of sense.

I would think that when square-dance was at the height of its popularity - before the era in which people became self-conscious about preserving or reviving it - it would have been danced in some form(s) in Black communities, but that those people and communities (where those communities still exist) have moved on in the ways that you suggest, without the desire to preserve or revive the past.

I've read interviews with Black blues harp stars of previous generations who've mentioned starting out in the south "playing waltzes" (the great Little Walter is one) ...

As a point of interest in this context, I have seen Black Canadians participating in "White" trad. folk culture when participation in the activity emerged naturally from some social context, activities including Irish dancing, singing & playing instruments in trad. folk music performance, playing Highland bagpipes & drums ... Not something you see often, but on occasion ...

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:25 AM

Mo, and others,

I want to clarify that I don't dislike square dancing. As I thought I made clear, I know very little about this type of dancing. And as you have pointed out, Google may be an insufficent beginning, middle, or end source for information about that subject-or other subjects.

I can imagine square dancing being physically and aesthetically pleasing. I can also imagine it being a lot of fun. Indeed, one of my earliest memories of performing was being part of a square dance group which performed in some outdoor city event. I remember being in the second or third grade when some adult-I'm not sure if she was a teacher-instructed my classmates and me how to "do si do" and perform other moves standing in a square formation with two partners. I remember wearing a new blouse and a wide skirt made wider with a crinoline slip for the actual performance. I also remember my mother buying me a set of mocassins especially for this performance. And I distinctly remember the excitement mixed with fear that I felt doing this dance in front of all those people who gathered in the stadium to watch our group and other children's groups from our school and other city schools. I can't recall what kind of dances the other groups performed. They were probably American square dances or traditional {perhaps modified traditional} European dances. Given that day and age {in the early 1950s}, I'm certain that the dances weren't traditional African or traditional Caribbean dances.

If the dance that I performed was indeed square dancing, it was the last time I remember performing that style of dancing. And yes, that is a shame.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM

Nice one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUljHD4JJ1U

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:09 PM

Yep. Thanks, Mr. Happy. That video made me smile.

And since you brought up the subject, here's a link to an
Afro-Peruvian dance called the Chincha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgah34cPa2I&mode=related&search=

I posted that link on the Afro-Latin Music thread. There's a link for another Afro-Peruvian dance posted there too.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:30 PM

Here's what all the kids are doing nowadays (warning: lots of unsurprising use of a certain racial epithet):

Come on baby let's do the Crip..

Here's something more traditional that I recently created a thread for, but it didn't seem to get much response: Watch for the last dancer..

Here's another version - nothing special, but a cute kid..

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:44 PM

"Here's something more traditional that I recently created a thread for"

meself, which thread was that? How 'bout adding a link.

Btw, I liked the last guy's dance style in the second video you posted, the one who did some rubber legged improvisation...

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:46 PM

Yerself,

Brill x 3!!!

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:01 PM

Meanwhile, in Cape Breton:

There's the young Ashley MacIsaac - and believe me, the kid could dance.
Listen to the crowd response - tells you something about why Cape Breton has such a rich culture.

About half-way through, Gerry Deveau puts down the spoons and starts dancing..

Then there's the all-growed-up Natalie MacMaster putting on a show.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:06 PM

Okay, as requested, here's a link to the earlier thread about the Red River Jig.

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:25 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nKT1R2jQ2aM

Subject: RE: Dances Known And Unknown
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:30 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_8yGGtVKrD8