I sing songs...about dead people

Subject: I sing songs...about dead people
From: squeezeldy
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:09 PM

Well, sure, I could do my own research, but a quick search hasn't turned up what I want, and why work when so many people are willing to do my thinking for me? :-)

I teach middle school music, and as part of a unit on ballads, played "The Erlking" which truly intrigued my 8th graders. As a result of the discussion, I offered to present some lessons featuring songs about dead people. I have thought of some likely candidates, but hey, 'Catters know a gazillion songs that I would never think of.

I do have one request. If your suggestion in not in English, could you provide either a source for a translation or the actual translation? (We listened to Erlking in German, but had a printed translation that is very close. Besides, I know the song...)

So, whether you are John Henry wearing a Long Black Veil, or a Teen Angel who dates the Leader of the Pack...no holds barred, no genres not considered...the dead can stay dead, or may pay a disconcerting visit (Holland Handkerchief)...what would you teach about?

Thank you in advance--I can't wait to read the suggestions, serious and facetious...

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM

Uh Oh! can't resist it Plastic Flower Seeds

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:26 PM

Lady Margaret would seem a good candidate.

I'm intrigued by your reference to the "Erlking" as a song. Of course I am familiar with Goethe's famous spooky poem "Der Erlkoenig" (...in seinen Armen, das Kind war tot"), but I was not aware that it had been set to music. Please tell me more.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: Lyr Add: The Grey Cock (3?)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

There are a number of ancient ballads under the general name of "The Grey Cock" which meet your specifications.

My favorite is this one:

THE GREY COCK

I must be going, no longer staying
The burning Thames I have to cross
And my feet must be guided, without a stumble
Into the arms of my dear lass.

And when he came to his true-love's window
He stood on tiptoe upon a stone
And there he rapped at his true-love's window
"Oh, my dear love, are you alone?"

She raised her head from her down-soft pillow,
And snowy were her milk-white breasts,
Sayin', "Who's there? Who's there, at my bedroom window,
Disturbing me of my long night's rest?"

"Oh, I'm your lover, and don't discover.
I pray you to rise, love, and let me in,
For I'm fatigued out of my long night's journey;
Besides, I'm wet unto the skin."

Now this young girl rose and put on her clothing.
She went downstairs for to let him in.
Oh, they kissed, shook hands, and embraced each other
Until that long night was near an end.

"Oh, Willie dear, oh my dearest Willie
Where is that color you'd some time ago?"
"Oh, Mary dear, the clay has changed me;
I'm but the ghost of the man you knew."

"Oh then cock, oh cock, oh my handsome cock'rel
I pray you not crow until it is day,
And your comb I'll make of the very best beaten gold,
Your wings I'll make of the silver grey."

But the cock, he crew, and he crew so fully.
He crew three hours before it was day.
And before it was day, my love had to go away,
Neither by the light of the moon nor the light of day.

"Oh, Willie dear, oh my dearest Willie,
Whenever shall I see you again?"
"When the fish they fly, love, and the sea runs dry, love,
And the rocks they melt by the heat of the sun."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM

and there's this gem

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: open mike
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:44 PM

this is a huge topic..
Danny Boy
Where does an old time riverman go--John Hartford
and about a thousand others..

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: open mike
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:47 PM

if you type dead or death into the search engine here
you will be scrolling for a long time..

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM

Another of my favorite ancient ballads, which is in the Digital Tradition database, is The Unquiet Grave

I'm hoping that link works; it doesn't look right on my screen.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:29 PM

Jesse James
James Connolly
Pretty Boy Floyd
Tom Dooley
The Galtee Mountain Boy

actually most of the people in folksongs are dead. I must be misunderstanding this. just dead....nothing else to qualify?

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: squeezeldy
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:39 PM

To Michael,
Franz Schubert set the poem to music. The piano adds wonderfully to the atmosphere, with a rolling left hand and rapid, repeated chords in the right. You can hear the horse's galloping hooves, and the storm, and feel the father's agitation and the boy's terror. It's worth a listen. The recording I have is included with our music textbook, so I am not sure where to direct you for a recording.

...and to Uncle DaveO--I am familiar with the poem The Grey Cock, but don't know a melody for it. I like the story. Now, imagine with me, teaching a group of 14-year-olds a poem featuring a handsome cock...at least no mention is made of gay plumage.

Yup, this is a big category and a fun one. Thanks! Meanwhile, keep breathing, lest we sing about you.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM

It's rather difficult not to...

The Grey Cock almost certainly is in the dt and is in the Penguin Book so I'm sure at a minimum you would find a "Mudcat MIDI". We have a copy of that version here

Another dead person:

Molly Bawn (mistaken for a swan and shot - her ghost sets the record straight and declares her killer innocent which is possibly a little more unusual).

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:58 PM

Yes, I thought of "Unquiet Grave" immediately, of course. And one of my favorites is The Devil and the farmer's Wife, especially Gryphon's version if you can find it. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:03 PM

Jakus. Can you narrow it down a bit ? AnyLament must be for soemone "at the other side". Most Irish Ballads are about the Dead. There is nothing we enjoy more than singing about the Dead. Did you ever hear the Ballad of John Joe Reilly ? He was a great Cavan footballer - it woulkd nearly bring tears to the Kerry followers.. Justas John Joe often did on the field of play.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

Also, check out the Kissing Walking Corpses thread, which is a discussion about whether you can kiss the dead guy or not... and mentions lots of murder ballads.
Not sure you want murder especially, though; White House Blues is about the death of McKinley, who was murdered but that isn't what the song is about. There is probably a song somewhere about Johnny Carson, or Julia Child, or Katharine Hepburn, all great and all dead...

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM

Surely you would want to include "Anne Boleyn/With Her Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm": Click here!

King Henry VIII loved her so!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Sidewinder
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:48 PM

Godstar -a song about Brian Jones
My Mummies Dead -John Lennon
Queen is Dead -The Smiths
Suicide is Painless
I just Died In Your Arms -Cutting Crew

I'm clutching at straws now!

Best Wishes

Sidewinder.

When I'm Dead & Gone -McGuinness Flint.

I'm Clutching again!

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM

*grin* (from the DT database...midi file there too)(has variants and other verses, depending on who you heard sing it)

ISN'T IT GRAND, BOYS

Look at the coffin, with silver handles
Isn't it grand, boys, to be bloody well dead?
Let's not have a sniffle, let's have a bloody good cry
And always remember, the longer you live
The sooner you'll bloody well die.

Look at the widow, bloody great woman...

Look at the mourners, bloody great hypocrites..

Look at the preacher, bloody well sanctified...

Look at the choir boys, bloody young faggots...

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:32 PM

Don't bother with The Grey Cock. It has nothing to do with anybody being dead (very much the opposite) except in a few cases where singers have mixed it up with other songs. There are always romantics who want folksong to be both "ancient" and supernatural; usually it's neither.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Burke
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:07 PM

On a more contemporary note:
Gordon Lightfoot's THE EDMUND FITZGERALD
James Keelaghan's "Cold Missouri Waters"

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:23 PM

Most Child ballads, most mining songs, most Irish rebel songs, a good percentage of sea songs and soldiers' songs and quite a few love songs would qualify! 'Death of Young Andrew' would keep you in teaching material for weeks, but two I find particularly moving are 'Ballad of Claudy' by James Simmons and 'Love Song' by Victoria Wood, of all people.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: woodsie
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:24 PM

The Dead were a great band.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: IanC
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:51 AM

Maria Marten's really good, but don't use the badly transcribed version in the DT. Here's a fairly good broadside version, or in this thread.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: pavane
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:38 AM

Look at Standing Stones, in the DT

Recorded by Dave and Toni Arthur on 'Hearken to the Witches Rune'

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: treewind
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

Michaelr, Schubert's setting of "Der Erlkoenig" is arguably more famous than Goethe's original poem!

(maybe you were trying to think of a folk song...)

Anahata

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: belfast
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:09 AM

I had thought the request was for songs relating to the dead who are still with us - "last night she came to me, my dead love came in " - but apparently not. Most songs, especially folk songs, like most novels,like Shakespeare's plays, are about dead people. The easiest meathod would be to go to the digitrad, find the very few songs that are about the living, remove them, and there you are. The remainder are songs about the dead.

And in due course every song will fall into that category.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:13 AM

"Revelry of the Dying" is a classic soldier's drinking song that has been updated several times, from century to century, from war to war:

"Composed by a British officer in India in the 1800's when the plague was hourly sweeping off his companions. He did not long survive his wonderful production."

Adapted by Charlie Ipcar - 1993
Tune by Charlie Ipcar

Revelry of the Dying


G?C-----------G---------C
We meet ?neath the sound-ing raft-ers,
--------F
And the walls a-round are bare,
---------------------------C
As they shout to our peals of laugh-ter,
D-----------------------D7--G
You?d swear that the dead were there.
----C-----------G-------C
But stand to your glass-es, stead-y!
-----F
We?ll drink to our com-rades? eyes,
------------------------C
Raise a cup to the dead al-ready,
-----G-----------------G7-C
And hur-rah! for the next that dies.

There?s a mist on the glass congealing;
?Tis the furies? fiery breath;
And thus does the warmth of feeling
Turn ice in the grasp of death.
But stand to your glasses, steady!
For a moment the vapor flies,
Raise a cup to the dead already,
And hurrah! for the next that dies.

Who dreads to the dust returning?
Who shrinks from that sable shore?
Where the high and haughty yearning
Of the soul shall sting no more.
But stand to your glasses, steady!
This world is a world of lies,
Raise a cup to the dead already,
And hurrah! for the next that dies.

Cut off from the land that bore us,
Betrayed by the land we find,
Where the brightest have gone before us,
And the dullest remain behind.
But stand to your glasses, steady!
?Tis all we?ve left to prize,
Raise a cup to the dead already,
And hurrah! for the next that dies.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

JOE HILL

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: open mike
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Lady Franklin's Lament..about Lord Franklin
there are 4 versions in DT

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:10 PM

Fan: Why don't you sing any happy songs?

Townes Van Zandt: Ma'am, these ARE my happy songs.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: squeezeldy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:13 PM

Thank you again for all of your input and opinions. I have lots of folk songs, because I've been singing folk music for....well, many years.
I was not very specific. We started by studying a couple of ballads--Edmund Fitz and Erlking. The resulting discussions showed that the students are interested in stories containing ghosts, death, gore--and I commented that I know a lot of songs with those things in them. I thought of some of the pop songs of the 60's--Teen Angel, and so forth. I would like to look at some other genres that sing of the death of a loved one. St. James' Infirmary is another example.
What I need help with is picking the corners of your brain and coming up with various genres and time periods.

Another note: The Grey Cock is indeed a night-visiting song. The lover is dead. Sorry, Malcom, but I disagree with you.

Thank you Charley, for the Soldier's Revelry. I'll nose around and see if I can find a melody.

Susanne, I will follow up on your suggestions. Thanks again, everybody. Meanwhile, I told my class what I had been doing and they were quite pleased that you took the time to answer on their behalf. I thank you, too.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM

Let us know which songs you'll go for and a little about how the students react to them, please!

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:18 PM

If you PM me your email addy, I'll sing and record The Grey Cock and send it to you, since you don't have the tune.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM

Sqeezldy, While (as a general principle with ANYBODY) I don't discount a possiblity of Malcolm Douglas getting something wrong (he tends to be very accurate,, far more accurate than me,, BUT we are all human), I would very much be inclined to investigate the possibility of there being more than one Grey Cock varient, and versions containing or not containing the ghost element,

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:24 PM

I Will Put My Ship In Order - dead lover visits his girl.
The Bergen - about dead sailors buried in unmarked graves.
The Flying Cloud - a ghost ship that saves a modern liner.

But I agree with Charley - Anne Boleyn will go over well. Catchy refrain and funny tale (for all but Anne).

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Callie
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:20 PM

Jim Boyes' "Brokenhearted Among the Pines" is about Kurt Cobain. An unexpected gem of a song!

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 01:43 AM

There are indeed a few Grey Cock variants with a ghost in them; as I said, the revenant verses are borrowed from other songs. Consider it as a night-visiting song which occasionally has supernatural elements; though these are not native to it.

For a detailed analysis, see Hugh Shields, 'The Grey Cock: Dawn Song or Revenant Ballad?' in E B Lyle, Ballad Studies, 1976. I found his arguments convincing, though my own, far more limited, examination of variants had pre-disposed me to that opinion. Anyway, Shields is a real authority (unlike me) so you'll have to disagree with him as well!

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:09 AM

Malcolm Douglas said:

There are indeed a few Grey Cock variants with a ghost in them; as I said, the revenant verses are borrowed from other songs.

And so? Isn't that par for the course in folk songs? If it were not for the revenant part of The Grey Cock, I wouldn't think it interesting enough to remember, much less sing!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:50 PM

I believe old friend Steve Gillette wrote the song "The Earlking". He first recorded it back in the 1960s for Vanguard. I've e-mailed him and he may look in here.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Barry T not at home
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

My tune, An Emigrant's Daughter, is sung in the first person by a young girl 'from the other side'.

http://members.shaw.ca/tunebook/emigdau.htm

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

"Pretty Polly", "Poor Ellen Smith", "Omy Wise", "Foggy Dew", "Roddy McCorley", "Barb'ry Allen", "Frankie and Johnny", "Wreck of the Old 97", the last verse of "Dark As A Dungeon", Woody Guthrie's "Ballad of Tom Joad", "Tam Lin" -- my hands are getting tired.                   Tw

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:35 AM

I think a great one for that age group would be the lake of Coolfin..where two boys go swimming and one drowns..it is a beautiful toon..also Young Charlotte where she won't wear her coat because it doesn't match her gown and freezes to death in the sleigh...Peter Amberly but you have to make sure not to get a version with the Tramps and Hawkers melody (or the folk police could get you..) mg

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:29 AM

The Demon Lover, also known as the House Carpenter.
Two good versions I can think of are Steeleye Span and The iron Horse. I think the latter is better. Oh and Dylan has one too.
Basicaly, and I'm it's about a woman who was engaged to a man gone to sea, but has long since married another. One day her love returns and compells her to go with him. When at sea then she finds out he has come to drag her down to Hell. Her lover is either a ghost or the Devil himself, depending on which version you follow.
In the House Carpenter versions (very popular in America), the supernatural elements are gone, and instead it is merely a tale of divine punishment for adulterous lovers.
Sweeney's Men does this one.

The Wife of Usher's Well is a folksong equivalent of the Monkey's Paw. A widow sends her three sons off to sea, who then die. She is wracked with grief and refuses to accept the fact that they are gone, calling them to return. They do so, a year(?) later, and she invites them to eat and sleep, but they say they cannot remain past dawn. When the cocks cry, they dissapear.
Martin Carthy's version (with his daughter on fiddle) is set to a Basque tune. Stunningly beautiful.

If you have done the Erlking, why not contrast it with The False Knight on the Road? The Devil tries to trick a young boy, but fails.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:47 AM

How could I forget the Cruel Sister (or Twa Sisters, etc) when the jealous sister pushes the younger into the water, who drowns (or is murdered by a miller). A minstrel walks by and makes a harp out of her breastbone, stringing it with strands of her golden hair. It then sings out against the sister!
Best ones I think are Old Blind Dogs, Pentangle, and Jody Stecher. Go to the latter's website, I don't know how to do a blue-clicky, and there you'll find a lovely illustration.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Sally M - at work
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:01 AM

How about the "Six Lords went a-fishing". It's in digitrad - but I can't do the blue clicky thing. However I sing the Cecil Sharpe collected version about the Duke of Bedford & Woburn Abbey - cos it's near to where I live.   Although I don't ofen sing it, I have found that children are intrigued with the verse about 'opened his bowels and spread out his feet".
Also "The Lady from Oxford city" (?) where her sailor/servant lover kills her with poison in her drink and then drinks the same himself - "young men beware of jealousy".
Well if blood and gore can get children interested in tradional songs then great, there's heaps to choose from aren't there !

Sally

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:07 AM

Sally,

If the kids like the traditional version of Six Dukes, see how they like the Kipper Family's parody OVERSTRAND. Gory enough even for children!!

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

Charming, Snuffy!

Why restrict your interest to just dead people? How about a dead dog such as in "Dead Dog Scrumpy/Cider"? The little ones will moan and groan with delight as the dog floats to the top in the middle of the beer tasting, belly side up.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: GUEST,Sally M
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM

Snuffy,
Yuck ! Thank you for that one - I'm sure the kids will like it.
I'll it out on them sometime.

Sally

Subject: Lyr Add: THE GRAVE OF NAPOLEON
From: GUEST,AnneMC
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM

The Grave of Napoleon - this song is on a Dick and Carol Holdstock CD called Shanties and Sea Songs from Way Out West.

THE GRAVE OF NAPOLEON

On a lone barren isle, where the wild roaring billow,
Assails the stern rock, and the loud tempest rave,
The hero lies still while the dew-dropping willow
Like a fond weeping mourner leans over the grave.
The lightning may flash, and the loud thunders rattle,
He heeds not, he hears not, he's free from all pain,
He sleeps his last sleep; he has fought his last battle,
No sound can awake him to glory again.
No sound can awake him to glory again.

Yet spirit immortal, the tomb cannot bind thee,
For like thine own eagle that soared to the sun,
Thou springest from bondage, and leavest behind thee
A name which before thee no mortal has won.
Though nations may combat, and war's thunder rattle,
No more on thy steed wilt thou sweep o'er the plain,
Thou sleepest thy last sleep,
Thou hast fought thy last battle,
No sound can awake him to glory again.
No sound can awake him to glory again.

Oh shade of the mighty! Where now are thy legions
That rushed but to conquer when thou led them on?
Alas! They have perished in far hilly regions,
And all save the fame of their triumph is gone.
The trumpet may sound and the loud cannon rattle,
They heed not, they hear not, they're free from all pain,
They sleep their last sleep,
They have fought their last battle,
No sound can awake him to glory again.
No sound can awake him to glory again.

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: squeezeldy
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

This sort of discussion is exactly why I made the original post, in spite of the fact that I lost my dime to Malcolm, who is very gracious, indeed. Some people are Always Right, and I admire them endlessly. I also accede to them quite readily. In my own defense, I learned about the song from a musicologist in a graduate class--I learned it as a night-visiting song. My apologies to all.

I really like the words to "The Grave of Napoleon" and will soon be off in search of a melody. Are the words under copyright, or are they in the Public Domain? I'll look that up, too. I have to look up the word "revenent," too. Alas, my ignorance knows no end.

Isn't this grand? I have already learned so much, and have more quests in store. This 3-lesson "unit" I had in mind is becoming rather....longer. How will I ever choose what to do? I had not planned on limiting my songs to the traditional genre, but how do I choose one or two songs when there are so many wonderful sets of words and beautiful melodies???

Cheers--or, perhaps, considering the subjec--Melancholies...

Subject: RE: I sing songs...about dead people
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:07 PM

Perhaps dead people sing songs about us......

Just imagine, I bet you Sir Patrck Spens and his company right now are there at the bottom of the sea singing about me being stuck in traffic jam in Leeds this afternoon.