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BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong

Stu 01 Feb 05 - 11:43 AM
Rapparee 01 Feb 05 - 11:45 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 05 - 11:49 AM
Stu 01 Feb 05 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 01 Feb 05 - 11:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM
Bunnahabhain 01 Feb 05 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Layah 01 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM
Stu 01 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM
Amos 01 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Mrr 01 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 05 - 03:55 PM
HuwG 01 Feb 05 - 04:39 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM
toadfrog 01 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM
Bunnahabhain 01 Feb 05 - 07:44 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,Layah 01 Feb 05 - 08:49 PM
beardedbruce 01 Feb 05 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,petr 01 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,marks 01 Feb 05 - 10:21 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 10:29 PM
beardedbruce 01 Feb 05 - 10:32 PM
Stu 02 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Rapaire 02 Feb 05 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,JennyO 02 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM
robomatic 02 Feb 05 - 05:32 PM
greg stephens 02 Feb 05 - 06:34 PM
Bunnahabhain 03 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 04 Feb 05 - 06:35 AM
DougR 04 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 04 Feb 05 - 03:48 PM
M.Ted 04 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM
GUEST,petr.. 04 Feb 05 - 08:15 PM
Burke 04 Feb 05 - 08:20 PM
LadyJean 05 Feb 05 - 12:21 AM

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Subject: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Stu
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:43 AM

Here is Stigweard's Theory of Where it All Went Wrong.

The Industrial Revolution. Prior to the industrial revoution most economies in the world were either agricultural or in some cases still hunter-gatherer. The introduction of industry, migration of people robbed of their land (by The Enclosure Acts in England for example) to cities has meant the destruction of our eons-old rural woay of life.

Since then, driven by the greed of the few, we have been sold an ideal that does not exist in reality - the capitalist utopia where money from the elite flows down to the lowest levels of society and poverty, crime and war are elimiated. In the process, we have become so attached to this inefficient, resource-consuming way of life even now, when we stand on the brink of the global warming catastrophe, human beings are incapable as a race from willfully pulling back and saying - hey we've got it wrong!

Anyway, my point is this: when we stood at the fork in the road, we took the road signposted 'Industrialisation' rather than 'Agriculture', and it was a mistake (except perhaps for iPods), as we went from sustainable to unsustainable and our children are now about to start paying the price.

That's it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:45 AM

Yes and no. Remember that Malthus really was correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:49 AM

oh hell, it all dates back to the building of the pyramids when they had row on row of bakeshops and breweries to supply the workers with food and drink. Everything since has been downhill


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Stu
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:50 AM

er, what did Malthus say then?


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:54 AM

Kind of nutty, but a thought-provoking read on this very subject is the book "Ishmael," by Daniel Quinn. It'll stick with ya. Amazon has it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM

1760? Shouldn't that be 1800? Besides - It's only 1653 here. 1760 or 1800 hasn't happened yet...


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:08 PM

1760?
Isn't that those colonials started griping a bit about taxes, and representaiton and such like, and we didn't exactly listen too well?

Now, if you'd been sensible, and behaved yourselves, there'd not be all these Spanish speaking immigrants. The Borders of the British states of North America would have come south instead....
And can't you just see the Highland regiments leading the Indian wars?

Bunnahabhain, stirring vigourusly.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Layah
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM

I found "Ishmael" in the Sci-Fi section of my library and was very disapointed to find it was a religion thinly disguised as a novel. It was thought provoking, but I don't feel it was anywhere near correct. Unfortunately, I read it long enough ago that I don't remember any details, just the general feeling of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Stu
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:37 PM

1760 was the start of the acts of enclosure, which is why I chose that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

A good date to pick on might be 1688.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:51 PM

One branch in a grapevine of past possible-future branches doth not a global explanation make.

Greed HAS intercepted and mugged progress all over the time line. Industrialization of an d by itself was not the start of evil -- by 1760 people were already using waterwheels to grind corn and wheat, wheels of various kinds, and windmills to raise mechanical advantage and save labor.

Should we have quite when the wheel was finished? You realize how much trouble it started?

The problem always lies in not catching the process up to the situation in which it must operate, I think.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

Actually it was much earlier than that. didn't the development of agriculture cause the Sahara desert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM

I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:55 PM

Fire. It all traces back to fire. If fire didn't exist (or if humanity had only ignored it) we wouldn't have had all the troubles we have now: fire-hardened spears, overly-cooked vegetables and meat, people who grow things because we can soften them when we cook them, stuff like that.

Malthus.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:39 PM

Acts of Enclosure (in England and Wales) dated to well before 1760. They were a feature of the later part of the reign of Henry VIII, and of Edward VI. They caused great dislocation in the countryside, leading to large numbers of beggars, and of people forced into the towns and cities.

As a rhyme of the time went,

"The Law will hang the man or woman
Who steals the goose from the common
But lets the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose"

"Common" referred to "common land", used by all members of a community for grazing, or to gather reeds, turf, firewood etc. There are still areas named "such-and-such common".

In Wales, "Gwaun" was land with similar use, though it didn't have quite the same legal meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

Mrr I was gonna blame agriculture, too. That, or Microsoft Bob.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

A much better case is that mankind went wrong around 10,000 B.C. or so, when somebody invented agriculture. Hunter-gatherers are bigger, stronger, happier, and rarely die of diseases. No overcrowing. No slavery. Good, healty, lo-carb diet of meat, fruit, and roots. A short life, and a merry one!


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM

Correct. Things went badly awry after people discovered agriculture and started cutting down all the trees and building cities!

That didn't happen to a very great extent in the Americas...most of the trees were not cut down by the indigenous people...and accordingly it was an ecological paradise when Columbus and his successors arrived after 1492 and started ruining the place.

You see the horrific results now.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:44 PM

How about 12000 or so BP, when the first people arrived in the Americas?
Lots of the Megafauna, mammoths etc suvived the end of the ice age, just as they suvived the end of the one before, but were hunted to extinction by people....
You don't need agriculture to make a mess, but it helps.

Bunnahabhain.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

It wasn't agriculture. It was agricultural surplus. When they finally nailed agriculture down well enough that it wasn't necessary for everybody to work in the fields, some people were able to leave the fields and become specialists. Instead of a farmer's wife making crappy baskets, he could trade some of his surplus grain for good baskets made by someone who knew what he was doing. Eventually, barter became too cumbersome and money was invented. That's when it really started to go wrong because money only works if it has the force of power behind it. How much is a stack of 10,000 ruble notes from the Societ Union worth? Nothing, because the force of power that once backed them is no more. So, for the convenience of having money, people willingly let themselves be dictated to by whoever was the biggest bully.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:46 PM

Yes indeedy. Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Layah
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:49 PM

If you follow the trend of this thread to it's logical conclusion, obviously the problem started with the evolution of humans. If it weren't for those pesky humans we'd all be better off. Um...yeah.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:50 PM

Well, it has been decided.

Money is the root cause of all evil. In order to improve the world, I suggest that all of you send all of your money to the FSGW Getaway , for use in the scholarship fund. Perhaps some good may yet come of it...


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM

well actually it did happen in the Americas..

Mayan society collapsed essentially of overcrowding, archeological evidence has clearly shown they were farming progressively higher elevations with poorer soil. (not to mention that the main crop was corn, which takes a lot of nutrients out of the land)

and it looks like that may have happened in a few other places.
The other side of that equation - the Incas for instance enslaved many smaller civilizations and yet most of those people were better off (economically) under the Incas than before.

- and its fairly certain that the arrival of human hunters pretty much wiped out much of the big fauna - in North America, Australia, New Zealand etc. as they had no fear of man, and were relatively easy prey.
(I grant that some scientists dispute that, that it mightve been climactic reasons, but how is it that everywhere all those species survived a dozen ice ages and except the last one that coincided with the arrival of man. )

and to stigweards theory, I dont believe that things were particularly rosy up to 1760.. The great majority of the population were peasants and they lived fairly hard lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:21 PM

Actually the wrong fork in the road was in 1588 at the defeat of the Spanish Armada. That led to British ascendency in the New World, instead of Spanish.
If that battle had gone the other way all us Yanks would be speaking Spanish instead of English, and there would be no worries over illegal immigration.

Of course, if you really want to be pedantic, you could claim the greatest influence on our history was the loss of the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest - when Hermonius clobbered Quintillius Varus during the reign of Caeser Augustus. That stopped Roman expansion at the Rhine in what is now Western Europe.

Anybody else got any other ideas?
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:29 PM

No, BB, you have misquoted the proverb. Money is a neutral item, neither good nor evil.

"It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil."

In other words, if money is MORE important to you than respect, sanity, responsibility, and the lives of others...then THERE lies the ultimate force behind evil. You can see it so easily in today's World that I should hardly have to explain it to you or anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:32 PM

OK.

But send all that money you love in to the Getaway, anyway. You don't want only the rich conservatives to be able to show up, do you? (grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Stu
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM

It is the fact the general population was deprived of its contact with the land and the natural cycle of life that caused the problems. Water wheels grinding corn is one thing as they represent a clean and renewable energy source, whereas what has followed is the unsustainable rape of the planets resources.

The lubricants used in space rockets was the oil (spermaceti) taken from the brain of the Sperm Whale, due to the oil's ability to retain low viscosity under extreme conditions of pressure and heat. Of course, the only way to obtain this resource was to kill live whales. When asked what NASA would do when all sperm whales had been hunted to extinction, a spokesman replied "we'll have to find an alternative".


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:52 AM

NASA, if they even did you whale oil in rockets, hasn't done so for years. There are very fine lubricants now which do a far better job. As for oil from sperm whales -- I have a bottle of synthetic whale oil which I'm told is superior to the natural product. No, I don't feel guilty about it, 'cause chemistry labs aren't yet even threatened, much less endangered.

Please cite your source for your assertion and the quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans.

Douglas Adams - "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:32 PM

JennyO I came here with the exact same quote in mind and there you are!

Robomatic, looking for the biggest tree out back...


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:34 PM

When was it that "Big Brother" TV thing started?


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM

Well, other good turning points.

The invention of writing.

Charlemane's defeat of the muslim invasion in the 700's


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM

That Big Bang...


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:35 AM

Should have stayed in me Cave


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM

Absolutely, Stig, I'm running for cover because there is no doubt ...the sky is falling!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:48 PM

It's all because of a red wheelbarrow... Nope, that's wrong.

The fault lies with the Kingston trio!!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM

Stigweard seems dead serious--"It is the fact the general population was deprived of its contact with the land and the natural cycle of life that caused the problems"--

I am not sure what those problems are--for myself, it seems clear that the genius of humanity has been to get most of its population away from the necessity of producing food, and on
to producing other things--


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: GUEST,petr..
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:15 PM

well if you want to go back that lifestyle of pre 1760..
what are you doing on a computer?


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: Burke
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:20 PM

It was when Adam and Eve ate that fruit they were told not to....

Oh, Sorry. Wrong thread. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 1760 - Where we all went wrong
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:21 AM

After 21 years in a decidedly urban setting, I find myself in what bears a striking resemblance to suburbia. It's too damn quiet! I like cities. I like living in a city. I don't miss the gang fights. But I miss being close to life. Here I'm just close to houses.


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