BS: Are SF fascist at heart

Subject: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:51 AM

Sean Russell, died on a German uboat on his way to Ireland, a little known musem in the back streets of Dublin stands as a reminder to the link with Hitlers Nazi's and SF.

In it can be seen anti Jewish literature,the same evil drivel that the Nazi's used.

Did SF drop their ties with this henious part of history no hope, they held a rally to honour the IRA man Sean Russell, old news yes but very much part of the problem.

That problem is the turning a blind eye and the wearing rose tinted glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:17 AM

How is it turning a blind eye if there is a small museum commemmorating it?

It's my understanding that although Ireland was officially neutral in WWII, (and this concerns Irish - English relations more than antisemitism), the number of Irish volunteers to the Allies belies the neutrality.

You don't say if the nasty literature is there for display or offered for brochures.

The 'Irish' in New York were very helpful to the supplying of Jewish Palestinians during Israel's War for Independence.

Feel free to inform me if I'm wearing green tinted glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,I'm not Irish
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:19 AM

maybe at the time it was just an ill advised expedient link
with "a powerful enemy of 'your' enemy"


with 60 years hind sight, a political relationship
now to be very regretted and ashamed of..

and a cynical abuse of war time neutral nation status ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:19 AM

An old adage of war is "My enemy's enemy is my friend." Hell, America did business with the Nazis. It's not surprising that some IRA types did, too. This is kinda like talkin' morals in a whore house.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,I'm not Irish
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:33 AM

though it makes you wonder if the ira had thought through clearly
what would have happened to Irland and the indiginous Irish
if the nazis had won the war ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Soma
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

http://www.eamonn.com/archives/001367.html
http://www.siptu.ie/news/article.php?id=111

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

When was the last time terrorists thought something through properly?

Bunnahbahain

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:32 PM

Can anyone name the street the museum is in? The leaflets are there to remind us as all museums are, of past events.

"The 'Irish' in New York were very helpful to the supplying of Jewish Palestinians during Israel's War for Independence"

Why refer to the Irish in NY? Also the number of Irish in ww2 make's no difference in this discussion to make them so infers they were all SF members. Why take the statement as inclusive of all Irish citizen, when it is blatently obvious that it only relates to SF.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend." Not when that friend is content on putting the rest of the world under it's jack boot including you.



"with 60 years hind sight, a political relationship
now to be very regretted and ashamed of.."

If so why did SF hold commemeration for S.Russell at the statue SF erected. They will replace it with a bronze bust if plannig permission is approved.

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre views on the staue.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1437478,00.html

"For those who do not want to read it here is the last paragraph,
But Kevin Myers, the veteran columnist, wrote in The Irish Times: "He contacted German intelligence in February 1939, days after Hitler had publicly promised that in the event of the war the Jews of Europe would be exterminated. It is too shaming for words.""

Sums it up.

Again this was erected by SF not the Irish separate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM

The above was my post, do try not to turn this into a slanging match, as it refers to the injustices that happened to the Jews, and the people who contributed to that mechanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:36 PM

Including the people who wage terror, while at the same time calling it a war against terror. People who try to think things through tend to get overuled by people who think that thinking things through is a cop-out.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:39 PM

Ask Hess. Oops. You can't. What "house" was he a guest of ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Den
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:54 PM

Just one more way to discredit Sinn Fein. Couldn't really pin the bank heist on them. Looks like you're running out of ideas. The writing is on the wall pal your little protestant state for a protestant people is on its last legs. Its time to move out of the dark ages, put it all behind you. The land is only something that keeps your feet from getting wet. Quit looking back its time for everyone to move forward together.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:08 PM

"Like talkin morals in a whore house"

Well said Brucie!!   The truth in that statement really shines.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:09 PM

"Its time to move out of the dark ages, put it all behind you."

Interesting comment,who was it celebrating this part of history? SF.

When did they do it? Couple of months back. Pot kettle black.

I no more want to be in a protestant state than one run by SF?IRA

It was the idiots of that prod state that has made N.I. what it is, of course with a little help from SF?IRA.

Saying that, what does that have to do with renmembering those who were part of the Nazi extermination machine, are we that much up our own backsides that only prods and catholics are considered in any N.I./Ireland issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:49 PM

Belfast, Combat 18 and it`s present day Nazi fiends are given a welcome hand by loyalists, they are further to the right than SF, surely this is not news to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:38 PM

I don't know much about Sein Fein but I do know a provacative
thread when I see one.

With all the "Troubles" that have gone on for years, how can a thread like this be helpful in any way? It seems like partisan sabre rattling.

A classical definition today of fascism indicates a dictatorship that is backed by a corporatocracy. Moussolini's regime would be one example. Hitler had Krupp and I. B. Farben to make munitions and gas chambers.

it seems to me that what we are experiencing now in the US is a lot closer than what's going on with Sein Fein. I see SF as a resistance movement not unlike those found in South America or you could interpret that as including Iraqi citizens who don't want an Occupier in their land.

I don't see corporate backing for SF. I see partisan statements being made and this has to be attributed to years of conflct by the "Troubles".

I see the British as having a history of occupation in Ireland as having a bearing.on this thread.

One of my favorite songwriters is Tommy Sands who has expressed the humanity of the toll of this terrible war through his song, "There Were Roses" and "Love Will Come Again".

I really pray that these "Troubles" can be eliminated and that justice can prevail for both sides....as I do for Israel and Palestine and the fundamental Christian and Muslim world.

Many countries in the world did not perceive Hitler to be the threatrening gangster that he was. It took time to realize that there could actually be someone like him. I can't see that the SF today would have any truck with Nazism.

I hope we can have peace in Ireland, Iraq, Mid-East, Darfour, Rwanda, the Balkins and yes even in the US. ( We have a culture war going on here at present.)

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:51 PM

The thread is a simple question, not meant to be provocative, but take it any way you want.

"Many countries in the world did not perceive Hitler to be the threatrening gangster that he was. It took time to realize that there could actually be someone like him. I can't see that the SF today would have any truck with Nazism."

In case you did not read the post properly, Sean Russell contacted Hitler after he made a speech declaring that he would exterminate every Jew in Europe. Nothing too confusing there.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

Thankfully Combat 18 do not have the means to do a Hitler, but the very idea of there being a Combat 18 sickens me.

Not as much as the fact that a political party, that was actually part of the Hitler killing machine for their own ends, could possibly be in government.

We do not need Combat 18 nor those who actually supported their hero Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM

Sorry me oul Belshaft mate but you are stuck with them, I have seen Loyalist graffiti featuring the swastika.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Here's an article with A brief analysis of Irish Republicans and their alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany, with a discussion thread sparked off by it, on an Irish Indymedia site.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 02:05 PM

Thanks McGrath for posting this article, it goes a long way to point out that Russell was first and foremost an Irish Republican with little time for the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

"Fascism" is government at the service of big business ~ that is, the corporate state. Mass murder and anti-Semistism a la Hitler are not incompatible with Fascism, which is of course basically anti-human, but they are not necessary elements of Fascism (although I suppose they are essential to Nazism).

The article just posted by McGrath is interesting and extremely plausible. Irish nationalists also sought the help of Imperial Germany during WWI, when Germany was England's enemy but the Nazis did not yet exist; it is reasonable to believe that the overtures made during WWII were of the exact same nature ~ an effort to make a temporary alliance with the enemy's enemy, with no promise of future fealty.

Irish Republicans (Nationalists) are not nearly as open to charges of "fascism" as the leaders of the US Republican party, who so openly promote the interests of the Military-Industrial Complex and of mulitnational corporate interests in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: open mike
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

i thought SF meant San Francisco...

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,now very confused
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

SF.. Sado Fairyism ???

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:29 PM

Science Fictioneers....

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:38 PM

The face for the public.


http://sinnfein.org/index2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:39 PM

Another perspective.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4237371.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

I figured out SF but was bemused that the first poster did not seek to better explain him or herself.

Let me throw out that one of the most anti-British of the Jewish independence fighters in Palestine was a small group called "The Stern Gang". I'm not going to search this on the internet, just relay that I recall reading that the Stern Gang was so anti-British as to research if they could get help from the Germans (they may have been ignorant as to the complete Jewish extermination campaign of the Nazis). Anyhow, when the British caught up with them they didn't make it to trial. I don't know how the Stern Gang is commemmorated in Israel, but they sound analogous to the situation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:50 PM

Even the Jewish Palestinians (present-day Israelis) were displeased with the Stern Gang. Times and places do provide opportunities for people who like to kill to do just that. Often, the 'cause' has little bearing on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:39 AM

My father was stationed in the North for a short time during the war, and told the tale of a buddy who found a German uniform and a motorocycle, and rode arond the countryside without attracting much notice.
Incidentally, on this side of the Atlantic, SF usually means Science Fiction. I know a lot of SF fans who are Libertarians, but few facscists.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Teresa
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:59 AM

SF = science fiction in the States, too, and briefly, as Open Mike says, when I lived in Berkeley near san Francisco, I had to be careful when mentioning SF or I'd get a big "huh"? :)

Going to the subject ... I do feel that it is a case of "My enemy's enemy is my friend." And things are never as black and white as one might want them to be.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:47 AM

I see some of our US friends are confused with this thread, that explains the reason why Bush was elected President.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Teresa
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:51 AM

Er ... um, I did not vote for Shrub, and I wasn't confused, once I read the thread. Seeing the title before reading was a little puzzling, however; I'll admit that much. I've never heard of that particular acronym before.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:12 AM

"Sorry me oul Belshaft mate but you are stuck with them, I have seen Loyalist graffiti featuring the swastika. "

No we are all stuck with them and thats the sad part, I have no time for any of the loyalists crowd. If you percieve me as one then I do what you don't, I will not swallow every little bit of the tripe they push. Ever heard of not in my name, it applies to every one no matter what tribe they belong to.

Enemy of my enemy may be old as time but that does not make it right, people must have the moral fibre to say a what price do I pay for what I want.

Sad fact is if Hitler had won ww2 SF would reaped the rewards of an Ireland under the jackboot. Then what would have happened? All the Jews would be gassed, along with the travellers, and others that Hitler felt did not fit into his nice world.

Would that have been a price worth paying? To gain what you want the rest of the worlds innocents pay?

Now back to the old enemy of my enemy is my friend thing:If this dally with Hitler had worked:

Britain being Hitlers enemy and Hitler being the jackboot on Ireland, pretty soon Britain would be SF's friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:55 AM

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1391492,00.html

http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html


http://irelandsown.net/nazi.html

Worth a look http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov15/f4.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:38 AM

"Enemy of my enemy may be old as time but that does not make it right"

True, but then ho one said that. Just a statement of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 11:53 AM

"Enemy of my enemy is my friend" One of those popular aphorisms better never invented

As usual, American Popular Music to the rescue:

Is it danger to be making an alliance
If allies are weak am I not best alone?
If allies are strong with power to protect me
Might they not protect me out of all I own?

from The King and I

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 08:49 AM

No, the thread is not futile. Reasoned discussion is educative. Name calling is puerile and non-productive.

Guest/Belfast has a point. He should be listened to. David Irvive is one Protestant politician, whom I as a Nationalist can relate to - because he comes across as sincere with a deep understanding of what makes the communities tick on both sides of the divide.

Irvine made the vaild point on Radio this morning that it would be a bad day for Northern politics if Sinn Fein politicians walk away from the IRA (as the Irish and British Governments want). His conviction is that for the peace process to work - the considerable following that the IRA have must be brought along to accept that the way forward is through peaceful and democratic means. Only people with a mandate and leadership qualities like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness can achieve this.

Even though he will not say this openly, I think Bertie Ahern sees the validity in Irvine's stance. Hence his reluctance to impose sanctions on Sinn Fein (demanded by other poiticians). Sanctions would be absolute madness - firstly because there is no evidence that in the recent events the Sin Fein politicians have done anything untoward. Such santions would be seen as further proff of how scared the established parties are of the political progress made by SF over the past two years.

Secondly, because it could be the last straw for Nationalits who up to this put their trust in democratic means. The reultant isolation would be disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:17 PM

I think too much is being made of this. we all know that Irish republicanism has some dodgy right wing skeletons in the closet.Didn't Christy moore do a song about the people being blessed by the church to fight for Franco. And so one guy or a few blokes nearly 70 years ago made a mistake about Hitler.

so what , isn't it time to forgive and forget

after all we made friends with Stalin and he was the biggest arsehole in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM

Yes, wee drummer, it is true that the Church in Ireland were on the side of Franco. But the Church wasn't Sinn Fein !!

Neither were the "Blueshirts" under General O'Duffy who went out to fight for Franco. THese were from the ranks of Cumann na nGael - now the Fine Gael Party - who never miss a chance to mouth off about Sinn Fein!!

No, you can lay manyy labels at Sinn Fein's door. But Naziism is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 03:51 PM

I made no mention of SF

my point was that Hitler (and franco) were a hell of a long time ago - time to move on............if we keep re-fighting these old battles, giving us an excuse to cast the first stone and say the first angry words, how will we ever move on to a permanent state of peace between all the parties involved.

Perhaps however a brave gesture of reconciliation from SF would be to honour the brave Irishmen who put on an English unform and delivered us from the threat of Hitler - now while there are still some alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

There were ex-IRA and Fianna Fail people on both sides in Spain. History is always a lot more complicated when you get down to details.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:06 AM

Who bothered to read the posted links, one of them contain the reason why Sean Russell went to Hitler for help, it mentions he has no time for his killing of Jews etc.

To debate anything about Ireland turns into what aboutery, like ard brought up combat 18, relevance to the original question is none.

We have to be able to look at what we allow to to or aspire to govern us in it's true light and in the case of SF/IRA many do not.

When we have a political party willing to go to any means to gain it's objective surely someone who supports that party has to question it actions.

The Hitler connection was a perfect example as to the self destructive lengths some people would go. This is not healthy to any side of the divide, because I for one do not believe that people would have been happy with a united Ireland brought about with help from Hitler.

The death of one nation,Jewish, to liberate another Ireland is a decision that should not be taken by one political party. SF's action would have led to the death of countless many and as people here see themselves as humanists,would such a price be acceptable to you. That would you be happy to know that Ireland was united but whatever Jewish population and traveller population it had would be gassed.


As for the mistake of 70 years ago, that would be a reasonable arguement if SF/IRA had not sought assistance from present day despots, Libya,Irag,Iran etc. They still keep to the same basic premise, use anyone to obtain our aim and to hell with the consequences.

What I am asking at what cost freedom and the answer seems to be at the cost of others. Would Nat/rep be at ease with this. I know I would not and I do want a United Ireland, but not at the cost of others in the world.

Call this a troll if you want or maybe or as many insecure rep put "propaganda".

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:02 PM

Yes a united Ireland would be nice. However I would not like to live in a country where the church is as pepredominant a force as it is in the republic - so how can I demand that northern protestants buckle down to live under such a regime.

As far as I can make out the English ruling class behaved reprehensibly for several centuries in Ireland (as they did most other places) and there are places in Ireland where they hate the English with a passion. Naturally once or twice along the way the Irish have sided with some of our adversaries.

Most fair minded will think this is regrettable but entirely understandable. And to be fair my grandfather and father fought alongside Irishmen in the boer war, WW1 and WW2. Plus the Irish have made many contributions to our society and culture. So more pluses than minuses.

I really think it is time to move on from all this sterile finger pointing and fault finding and find some decent solution where we can all be friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Com Seangan
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 02:11 PM

Wee drummer. I agree totally - it is time to move on. But it was you who mentioned the Church and Franco and you who asked if we did not befriend Stalin.

I was attempting to put these things in contaxt. I don't know of Fianna Fail men - going out to fight against Franco. Frank Ryan certainly did - and he was no Fianna Failer.

But I don't see any point in the original question. Sinn Fein are certainly Republican (and considered well to the "left" of centre) but Fascist ? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 02:26 PM

I remember a boat which lay for a number of years in Carrickfergus harbour, it was named the Clyde Valley. this hulk was used in 1912 to carry German weapons for the UVF.
The Clyde Valley was to be refurbished by the loyalists and turned into a Museum, the project failed due to lack of funds, just pointing out that the loyalists wern`t too fussy were they obtained their arms.

Having lived through Unionist rule for years I am surprised that the down-trodden nationalists suffered in silence for so long, remember this was a built in majority operating from 1922 until 1972 and never in that
time did the any liberal minded Unionist voce his disapproval of the blatant discrimination which was operating openly.

Belfast Unionist can blether all the liberal platitudes now, he like the resr of his RUC, B-Special, and Special Branch gangsters were enjoying a regime which was the envy of every tin-pot dictator in the world, can he deny the gerry-mandering and election rigging which was par for the course for these people?.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 02:31 PM

a country where the church is as predominant a force as it is in the republic That's not Ireland 2005. It just isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:00 PM

well lets hope you're right McGrath. the way forward certainly isn't me pointing out problems. so I'll shut up.

there are too many people pointing at old problems, and saying they are insurmountable. I don't want to be like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Com Seangan
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

Oh Aren't you Thanking God wee drummer - that you are not like the rest of men. And that you weren't born a nationaist in NI to be discriminated against by the institutional thugs operating under the misnomer of the "forces of law and order".

Yes move on. We can all move on. But let none of us pretend that history hasn't happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:24 AM

no I am just keeping my trap shut because evrything I say seems to enrage somebody.

I will not thank God. I will leave that and the arguments to those who so earnestly believe in him in his various forms.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 09:36 AM

England's difficulty was always Ireland's opportunity. Wasn't The Curragh full of German spies, though?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,GUEST,GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM

a country where the church is as predominant a force as it is in the republic That's not Ireland 2005. It just isn't.

The same can be said for N.Ireland it is no longer a protestant state for a Protestant people, it just isn't.

To answer Ard and his words they just prove that Ireland will become a cold house for protestants. If that is the case why have a peace process at all.

I was not around in 1922 but I do understand the fears protestants had about being assimilated into a country under the influence of the catholic church. But then they were only dirty rotten prods and they deserve what happens to them, right Ard.

Where did we see that atttitude before and where did it lead us?

I suspose this type of discussion is healthy as it shows that prejudice is very much prevalent on either side. Along with a bit of self pity.


"I remember a boat which lay for a number of years in Carrickfergus harbour, it was named the Clyde Valley. this hulk was used in 1912 to carry German weapons for the UVF.
The Clyde Valley was to be refurbished by the loyalists and turned into a Museum, the project failed due to lack of funds, just pointing out that the loyalists wern`t too fussy were they obtained their arms."

Point being Ard? If you are trying to make comparisons you are way off think of the dates and when Germany and Great Britain become enemies.


"Belfast Unionist can blether all the liberal platitudes now, he like the resr of his RUC, B-Special, and Special Branch gangsters were enjoying a regime which was the envy of every tin-pot dictator in the world, can he deny the gerry-mandering and election rigging which was par for the course for these people?. "

Only poor catholics suffered! what a load of self pitying crap, working class of both sides suffered, get the hankies out for goodness sake.

One thing for sure the nat/rep opinions expressed here are not representative of the majority in N.Ireland if it was we would never see an end to the "troubles".

Next you will actually believe that the IRA's mudering of 2000 people was not a criminal act. Considering the rest of Ireland considers them to be.

I have finnished here far too much whataboutery, but i have noticed not one answered my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Den
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

Ok here goes. No Sinn Fein are not Fascists at heart. How's that, happy now. Its been said and explained many times (not in so many words) already in this thread. But you don't want to listen. What is the point of you asking the question to begin with. You weren't trying to fan the flames here were you? No I didn't think so. That would only happen if someone started a thread titled are Ulster protestants bigots at heart? Am I right?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:34 AM

Question Den, was who would accept a united Ireland at the expense of anoter people i.e. the Jews and the other people hitler was exterminating. United Ireland at any cost?

Yes some ulster protestants are bigots at heart, I'm not afraid to admit to the failing of the group I am put in.

What about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:39 AM

BTW I was not trying to fan any flames, the issue arose out of the damage to Sean Russell's statue, by people from the republic of Ireland who do consider this to be a disgraceful part of SF history.

What do you call the people in the republic, are they more qualified to ask the question than someone from the North of Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:57 AM

My leanings in this are well known. My family were all nationalists, and that is how I have been raised with regard to the land of my grandparents. Unlike some in the country of my birth, I have always tried to get to the real meat of this issue. Mudcat, for me, has been instrumental in dispelling some of the "Plastic Pat" baggage that many Yanks have. Of late I have tried to simply listen in these debates, as I feel that this is best left to those that are living it. I am going to depart from that for a moment and offer some observations of this discussion.

First off to Belfast, N. Ireland. Whether by intent or accident, your thread title and initial post are a troll. They clearly show your bias. Any reasonable person knows full well that the Republicans were not Nazi's or sympathizers. It was the same set of circumstances that existed in 1798 with the French. The enemy of their oppressor offered assistance. The Irish Gaels have never given in to the English and their desire to eliminate their culture. Over the centuries they have made many alliances in an attempt to rid Ireland of their presence. This is because Great Britain had overwhelming resources to bring to bear.

Your comment about the people of the North seems legitimate. Catholics and Protestants seem to have adopted the desire to resolve this issue politically. In response to this, the IRA and SF have held a cease fire in the face of unending provocation. No matter how you try to couch it, it is the loyalist/unionist factions that try to torpedo the process. They, in their minds, have the most to lose. If that is not the case, then give us some facts. And don't try to shift the argument to something that happened 60 or 70 years ago.

The issue of the Catholic Church's influence in the South is legitimate, and the folks in the Republic have been addressing that in recent years. Having said that, the Republic has a history of being very tolerant of other religions. Hell, the Lord Mayor of Dublin was a Jewish man. It is about being Irish, and that is the nub of it. Where one says their prayers is less important than whether they see themselves as Irish or not.

BTW, the comment about accepting a United Ireland at the expense of the Jews was a ridiculous analogy. The status of the European Jewry was not an issue to the Nationalists. Most people in Europe, at the time of these approaches, had no idea what was happening to them. I would be surprised if even one Republican would accept a United Ireland in return for the lives of 6 million people. Whoever it was that suggested this in the above post is a shameless fool.

And it is always those that had the unfair advantage that want to paint the aggrieved peoples as "self pitying" when they have had enough of injustice. You are just afraid that these folks might treat you like they have been treated.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:11 PM

Belfast Loyalist goes into detail about IRA wrongdoings and mentions in passing Loyalist crimes, note he does not go into much detail about the UDA, LVF, AND UVF GANGSTERS.

He knows all about every atrocity carried out in the name of republicanism, every atrocity carried out by loyalist/Unionists is purely reactive.

The history of British/Unionist government in Ireland is ignored, he talks of the "ethnic cleaning" of the border Protestants, yet ignores the fact that in July and August 1969 in Belfast alone 1,820 families fled their homes, 1,505 of them Catholic..

He dosen`t seem to be aware that for generations have tolerated intolerance and vilification.

He should remember that at the start of the troubles the bombs at Dunadry, the Silent Valley, and McGurks Bar in which 14 Catholics lost their lives, all of which were carried out by loyalists, were attributed by the RUC to the IRA.

Nothing changes, Loyalist gangsters are released on bail for crimes including murder, the IRA sre blamed for the Northern Bank robbery without a shred of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,belfas\n.Ireland\Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:54 PM

"No matter how you try to couch it, it is the loyalist/unionist factions that try to torpedo the process. They, in their minds, have the most to lose"

Show me were I am pro loyalist show me were I have supported any side of this crap that goes on.

I do not and never have supported any terrorist organisation and it is peoples own predjudism that has labelled me loyalist/unionist, I criticise SF so I must be a unionist, nonsense.

"Most people in Europe, at the time of these approaches, had no idea what was happening to them. I would be surprised if even one Republican would accept a United Ireland in return for the lives of 6 million people. Whoever it was that suggested this in the above post is a shameless fool"

Again I will point out Hitler said he would exterminate every Jew in Europe days before Sean Russell approached Germany for help. That begs the question that I asked, and it is more than reasonable.

"Belfast Loyalist goes into detail about IRA wrongdoings and mentions in passing Loyalist crimes, note he does not go into much detail about the UDA, LVF, AND UVF GANGSTERS."

Again another perfect example of ards bigotry, it would go against my being to support the loyalist crowd as it would to support any rep/nat crowd. BTW it was not a compare and contrast question as it was specific to the Sean Russell issue who had his staue attacked by people in the Irish republic, are they Unionists also ard?

Put the question like this, why did the people in Ireland destroy Sean Russels statue? Why did the Simon Wiesenthal center in Paris denounce SF/IRA contacts with Hitler as shameful? Were they loyalist? Are they biased? Or is it that because they live in the republic of Ireland their criticism can be accepted?

Catch youself on ard your the rep equivalent to the loyalist that see a rep/nat in every corner.


Thats why I affiliate myself with none of them as they are all bigoted. This your with us or against us that is very common among those who want to impose their will on others a trait found on both sides of the divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,belfas\n.Ireland\Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

Prosperity, Revolution and Famine
United Irishmen - up to 1798

Legislative independence had been won in 1782 but the Irish Parliament only had Protestant members and even those were effectively nominated by leading men of property. Attempts to reform the Parliament were entirely unsuccessful. The outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789 caused great excitement amongst the educated classes in Ireland.

Inspired by French Revolutionary ideals, a group of Protestants formed the Society of United Irishmen in Belfast in October 1791. The organisation sought an equal representation of all the people (which also meant giving equal political rights to Catholics), and a radical reform of the legislature. The movement became secret and revolutionary in 1795 when Defenders flooded into the organisation determined on revolt, and when Wolfe Tone successfully obtained the promise of French help. A major French expedition sailed from Brest in 1796 but, beset by storms in Bantry Bay in December, no landing was made.

Nevertheless, the sight of French warships caused great excitement and yet more people enrolled in the society. The government seized many of the leaders, hanged and transported Defenders, and raised a militia and yeomanry. Surviving United leaders decided on rebellion to begin on 23rd May, 1798.

Big Mick not the same as going to a country whos leader openly staed he would wipe out every Jew and indesirable in Europe, oh BTW note the Protestant link.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

The catholic/Nationalist population in the time of the Unionist dictatorship was 35% rising to 40%, around the mid 1950s, the Nationalists had the large amount of 3 seats in Stormont.
The city of Derry 75% Nationalist was never able to have control of the Counncil due to discrimination and the Prime Minister Basil Brooke had earlier told Unionists that" he wouldn`t have one about the place" he was referring to Catholics. Every constituency was gerrymandered to ensure the Unionist remained solidly in control.
If the "vote early vote often" label was applied to Nationalists how come they never seemed to wangle control of Derry, at one time the Unionist population of West Belfast [Shankill Road area] was half as much again after each election, there was the famous quote by Eddie Mc`Ateer that"the dead arose and voted for many".