BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: GUEST,John Barden
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

Cllr - The conservatives had from 1979 to 1997 to do something about the PEL system, and our disgraceful licensing laws, but what happened - diddly squat.

Richard - Good for him, there are not enough men of principles if you ask me

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

John, I actually think R M-A is a clause 4 man.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:24 AM

Being an active Conservative politician I would think that les and I arn't going to agree any time soon.
i don't particulary like drawn out discussions on politics (or rather the IM right your wrong sort of arguments they can often degenerate into on mudcat) and they rather play to the gallery. Political discussion which are a little more esoteric on mudcat can be quite fun though and it usually does not become personalised
I much prefer to talk to fellow mudcatters at festivals over a glass or two.
cllr

PS what about the labour lot bringing in that PEL law, bloody disgraceful us conservatives would never (Continued page 94)

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: The Barden of England
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:24 PM

Almost minority government - now that will almost do it. Not this time for sure, but next time, well that might be different. Strange to think that 'The Shrub' will be gone by then, along with Phoney Eclair. I've had enough of The Might and The Right, along with The Right and The Might. But Richard McDB, will that RObert Marshall-ANdrews pay homage at the altar of of nodroG nworB? I bloody well hope not. Phoney's going, and probably sooner than later even though he said he wants a full third term; but then he's always truthful isn't he. There's always John Prescott -hmmm - - - what to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

Tariq Ali (remember him) was saying today that a small New Labour majority would give influence to minorities within the party. That might be good, but how can it be made repeatable?

Maybe RObert Marshall-ANdrews would like to form a splinter goup within?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:24 PM

Forthcoming UK election - important issue

That was the question Cllr.
The re-distribution of power and wealth is the important issue.

Don I say three times before ............ Party politics is what we have. It needs bringing to life and I don't know how to do it. I see no other way and no other party.

The Lib dems have a few good ideas but they are in council with Labour in some places and Tories in others.

Maybe all is lost and we will go the way of the USA where only rich people can get elected and most people will not bother to vote but I cannot be that pesimistic.

Perhaps this thread is dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:30 AM

Vote for me! I have the answers

Your friendly neighborhood Councillor








PS What was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 06:50 AM

I say again Les.........What Labour Party?

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

Vote Tory for the Council Tax and a Party Leader who didn't care when 4 million honest working people had no work.

Ok, I don't think the answer lies outside the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:02 AM

I am going to vote at this election for the first time in my 47years on this planet, and I will vote Tory. Why? I hate this nannying, 'Tony knows what's best for us 'attitude, stealth taxes, "safety cameras" and the banning of fox hunting. I also agree that our current prosperity has sod all to do with the current Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM

Lots of other complaints about what the government could do come back to higher taxes. We spent 20 years in opposition asking for people to vote for that and they did not. Gordon has done by stealth what Kinnock and Smith could not win an argument on.

So you support intoducing changes by stealth, rather than telling people what you, as a goverment, want to do? It'll be fine so long as it's done
before enough people notice, and by then they'll just have to accept it....
Shall we introduce this in a few other areas? How about locking up opposition politicians? So long as you do it carefully, only a few family members would be kicking up a fuss, and once you've done it, everbody will just accept it. Doesn't matter if you can't win an arguement on it, by your above statement.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:10 AM

'You may well be right in saying that the the Labour Party is the best bet, but ONLY IF we can actually get the Labour Party back. We don't have it now, nor are we likely to anytime soon.

Don T.'

You may well be right on this Don, but I see no point in going off and inventing the Labour Party (broad left, egaliterian, openly democratic, internationalist, I can't believe I am writing this) all over again.

Apparently Cho En Ly (sorry can't spell the name of the number 2 in China with Mao) when asked about the success of the French Revolution said 'It's too early to tell'

In the dark days of the 80's we never thought we would get back. We have and for the first time ever we have not mucked up the economy or got into civil war.

Blair will probably be damned for a long time over Iraq even if the country stabilises and the body count goes his way. People don't get the chance to get rid of fascist dictator very often and it looks like Blair misjudged the situation.

Lots of other complaints about what the government could do come back to higher taxes. We spent 20 years in opposition asking for people to vote for that and they did not. Gordon has done by stealth what Kinnock and Smith could not win an argument on.

That is why it's Labour for the long game, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM

We don't actually have ANY viable parties at present. And no, we shouldn't give the Lib Dems a go just because they happen to be there - they have to convince people to vote for them by giving some inkling of what they would do if they got close to power. Something they have failed to do since Jo Grimond was a lad.

My earlier reference to them being like a mental fallback holds water (please don't be so naive as to call that institutionalised) - because even though we know they are complete tossers, we just don't want them to have the opportunity to prove it.

with only a slight smirk
Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:14 PM

Les,

You may well be right in saying that the the Labour Party is the best bet, but ONLY IF we can actually get the Labour Party back. We don't have it now, nor are we likely to anytime soon.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:11 PM

I'm with you Richard, just a bit pushed to find examples of democratic intervention into capitalism that are only slightly less ugly than capitalism itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

All of the potential probelms we face are the result of the doctrinaire Thatcherite destruction of any real economic base - leaving us only with the opportunity of being servants.

It is only ever government intervention that has eased the path out of recessions created by capitalist theories. Preventing governments from doing such necessary things (eg by control of central banks) exemplifies the elevation of capital over labour, the principal source of suffering inthe Western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

You can wrangle around the value of your vote but it is not enough. Do anything more than vote.

Join a party, start a party, talk to other people, share ideas, spread ideas, try to find new ways of getting idaes and sharing them.

How can we re-distribute power and wealth?

The Labour Party remains the best bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Grab
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:59 AM

So I think we have to mentally keep the Lib Dems in reserve, as "a last hope in case all else fails", but with the intention of never having to fall back on it.

Any particular reason? When the devil you know is crapping on you and yours from a great height, the angel-or-devil you don't know is worth a go, surely?

What scares me is that too many people may be institutionalised like this. The attitude is "the last two incumbents have utterly screwed us, but we don't want anyone else because at least we know *how* we're going to get shafted with these two".

Don is right that the Lib Dems need to state their policies more clearly. However, the very fact that they need to consult with their party, as to what their policies should be, has to be a good thing. The last 20 years have shown quite clearly what happens to a party in power when the party leader can arbitrarily impose his own policies over the will of his party.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:23 PM

"Imagine if we voted them in, only to find they were as bad as the current lot, where could we possibly go from there?"

At least we would know. We'll never know if we simply sit on the fence saying "What if..."

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:19 PM

"I mean, who the hell thought it was more important for a hospital to generate profit than for it to generate well people?"

Probably the same silly bugger who decided that "economy" was more important than paying for education or policing.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:47 AM

And creating an independent central bank was a damn silly idea, that only a "New Labour" (= conservative) government could have thought of. What does an independent bank put first? The interests of the people, or those of capital and banks? It's a no-brainer.

Putting the interests of the people, or even the bank first is better than leaving the central Bank under political control, so the priority becomes getting re-elected, and therefore making people feel rich on polling day. Sensible policy and timing go out the window at that point.

The long period of stability and growth we've had has been a direct result of an independant Bank of England, Tory reforms, and a few years of restraint from Gordan Brown. The restraint has faded, and growth is now slowing. We all lose as a result.

And what would be wrong with a goverment that spends, say 30% of our national income, rather than the currrent 41-42%?
That is a big enough cut to make a real diffrence, but not so large as to remove all goverment support for those who really need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:07 AM

Many of us are tempted by the thought that the Lib Dems are the only option. Problem is that we only think that because all the rest are so shite. In truth, it's probable that their no-names are as bad as the rest. Imagine if we voted them in, only to find they were as bad as the current lot, where could we possibly go from there?

So I think we have to mentally keep the Lib Dems in reserve, as "a last hope in case all else fails", but with the intention of never having to fall back on it.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM

Don ...In my part of the country, we've seen the "independents" in action in LOCAL govt.
In almost every case they're bought over by one of the big groupings.
They invariably turn out more corrupt than the party hacks.

We will never change peoples' outlook through any of the party machines , they are too locked into the system, in fact they rely on the system for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

Hi Grab,

The Lib Dems ARE the only party who could , just conceivably, win enough votes to beat the double right wing, but until they are able to tell prospective voters what their policies are on the important issues that ain't gonna happen.

That's why I made the comment about independents. Seems to me the only thing they need to highlight is their determination to represent the expressed wishes of their own constituents against any and all opposition.

A pipe dream, I know, but what a pity that it is so. We might even have achieved truly representative government, and it would be much harder for this country to be dragged into a war that we don't believe in.

Still, at the end of the day, all should vote, and for the candidate in whose ability they believe.

Richard, for what it's worth, I think you should vote for Marshall Andrews. We both know he is a one off, a true socialist and a man who already listens to the wishes of his constituents. Even I can see in him an MP I could trust and respect. Off hand I can't think of one tory that I could describe in that way, so I have a much more difficult decision than you. But whatever my choice, I will vote, because I really believe that the only wasted vote is NO vote.


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 PM

Don't sit on the fence, Terry K. Come down and say what you mean LOL.

Seriously though, I feel less lonely now there are two of us. Good post my friend

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

I would be happier if they went back to some level of socialism !!
And by the way , 100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Grab
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:01 PM

Lib Dems look like the only alternative. As Charlie K says, they're the only opposition party. The Tories and Labour are the same, just with different slogans.

Single issue: public services. Raise taxes, improve public services and re-nationalise public services. I mean, who the hell thought it was more important for a hospital to generate profit than for it to generate well people?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:38 PM

Every second poster says "they're all bastards, but I dont want to waste my vote"

I'm very sorry to tell you ,but your vote is not worth the paper its printed on .
How long will it be till we're in the same position as the Americans.

Is "Democracy" really the best of two evils,if that is the case then using your vote and helping to continue the process is the "waste"

How about putting some real effort into protest and trying to getsome genuine alternatives to the system thats fuckin our world..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:36 PM

Why do we call them something vaguely non-insulting like "Tories"?

With you there JB. At least we can both sell our daughers and probably show a profit!

One of my problems is that Marshall-Andrews ( good legal mind, as a QC, and a staunch clause 4 old labour man) is a damn good local MP. So do I go for him, or hope another candidate turns up?

Maybe I even write to him and ask if there could please be a local Labour party I could assist, in stead of a New Labour one?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:12 PM

I had 5 redundancies under the Tories between 1983 and 1993. Those 10 years screwed up any chance I had of putting enough money into a pension fund and thereby enjoying a decent retirement income. I'm probably going to have to sell the family jewels, the house and the cat, just like the Tories did with the water companies, the electricity company, the National Grid, the Gas company. Need I go on?

I'm not voting for Tonie's cronies either, but in rememberance of all the people who died in 2 world wars - my father fought in the last one and is thankfully still with us - and in the many wars since I believe that it is my solemn duty to go and vote. The only wasted vote, is an unused vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:51 AM

What's the deal with Labour anyway? They've shuffled along so far into the right, they'll be wearing jackboots in a couple of years.
I can hear Kier Hardy spinning in his grave...

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

I'm voting SSP. Makes bugger all difference who i vote for in practical terms, with the major parties being identical in all but name...so i'm voting for a principle.

Dishonesty amongst politicians is a matter of degree...

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM

Bun(whatever) - please engage brain before putting mouth in gear.

I repeat. Less government = more effective liberty for the rich to continue to oppress the poor.   Only the rich and the doctrinaire believe what you just said.

And creating an independent central bank was a damn silly idea, that only a "New Labour" (= conservative) government could have thought of. What does an independent bank put first? The interests of the people, or those of capital and banks? It's a no-brainer.

The belief that choice leads to optimal distribution for all is equally well known by any first-year economist to be false - it does not and cannot turn ineffective demand (ie needs that the poor cannot afford to pay for) into effective demand, and therefore the free market economy fails even its own tests for benefit - unless you disregard the poor because they don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:18 AM

How about some real tories? A party that's not afraid to say tax cuts mean we take less of your money and that you should run your life, not the goverment.

That would be a real choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:13 AM

Short-term hardship - there were enormous numbers of people whose lives were ruined, and whole communities devastated. The results are still with us and will be for generations. That wasn't "short-term".

And one result is the pattern of politics which people rightly find so distasteful about New Labour.

Insofar as there were changes which were needed, there were other ways of achieving which would have been less destructuve in social and human terms.   

It is said that at one time the magic formula for producing a finely tempered steel sword involved running it through the body of a slave. Eventually it was discovered that precisely the same effect, and better, could be achieved in other ways. That's more or less how Thatcher achieved her reforms.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:48 AM

"Short-term hardship, necessary for long-term improvement. Which is what we got."

What long term improvement?

Millions of tons of natural resources no longer available. Public transport in a worse mess than ever. They privatised public transport in order to have more competition. Virtually all public transport in this part of the country is owned by a single private company - more of a monopoly than before. Unemployment was still much higher at the end of the Conservative "reign" than at the beginning. As for dishonesty and corruption they are no higher under New Labour (Pink Tory) than under Thatcherism (Purple Tory).

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:41 AM

"Well that was no surprise, all replies rubbishing the idea that anything was right with the Tories. But, significantly, not one post suggesting anything good from Blair & Co. Kinda makes my earlier point about independent candidates n'est ce pas? Seems we all agree that they couldn't do less than the last two lots."

I'm inclined to agree with you on that, Don.

We've been seriously let down by both kinds of Tory. Time for Real Labour, Lib-Dem or independants.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:58 AM

Thatcher did unpopular things which resulted in hardship for many. Short-term hardship, necessary for long-term improvement. Which is what we got. Many did not agree with her methods (I may or may not be included) but the results have been undeniable.

Blair is a twat, a fool and a fucking liar and he'll get voted in again. Once he has, he will continue to meddle in areas that Government should not be wasting time and money on. His pandering to Bush with absolutely nothing in return is the most cringeworthy act of political posturing it has ever been my misfortune to witness.

The really sickening thing is to consider who we would get if it wasn't Blair - the likelihood is Brown, for fuck's sake, less of a fool perhaps, but much more naturally dishonest.

Is my frustration with modern politics starting to show?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:57 AM

Well, they did make the Bank of England independant.That is a good thing

However, one sensible act in 8 years? A group of trained monekys could do better. Probably a group of untrained monkeys could as well...

BTW, Chongo Chimp, this is not a personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:51 PM

Well that was no surprise, all replies rubbishing the idea that anything was right with the Tories. But, significantly, not one post suggesting anything good from Blair & Co. Kinda makes my earlier point about independent candidates n'est ce pas? Seems we all agree that they couldn't do less than the last two lots.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:34 PM

"Millions of people were made unemployed, poor and powerless by that woman."

And the interesting thing is that the election posters consisted of a queue of unemployed (1 million at that time) and the slogan "Labour isn't working". I saw that as a promise that her government would actually reduce unemployment.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: EagleWing
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

"Over eighteen years Maggie Thatcher's government reduced inflation from 21.9% inherited from Wilson/Callaghan to less than 3%, before she went mad and imploded."

Over a much shorter time Maggie Thatcher's government increased unemployment to about 3 million compared with the 1 million she inherited. I don't suppose all those people thrown out of work and then called spungers really noticed the drop in inflation that much.

Quote: "during her first two terms unemployment nearly tripled, the number of poor people increased, and bankruptcies resulted from her efforts to curb inflation."
Click here for full article

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:45 PM

Somebody got sacked by the evidence of a Blogger. That sounds like progress.

Sorry details escape me and the Folk Club Calls

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:43 PM

some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally

With the Internet this can be done without a "fair-minded media mogul" - all it needs is some dedicated and indefatigable bods who knows their way round computers. That was demonstrated in the US election campaign, even if the candidate of the unfair media moguls did scrape home in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Millions of people were made unemployed, poor and powerless by that woman. Educational and work links and opportunity were destroyed by the unemployment created in the 80's.

The issue remains the re-distribution of power and wealth and all that flows from those two.

'Perhaps one day some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally'

Have you read the the Times, The Telegraph, Mail, the Sun, the Star, the Sport? Who owns them and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM

Don, you could have pretended to be a communist!

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps one day some fair minded media mogul will make it possible for this kind of discussion to be aired nationally, so that enough people would vote tactically to make a difference. I do agree, though, that a seriously reduced majority would be the best possible result in the next election.

I am sure that Richard's little giveaway did not pass unnoticed, and that it will be obvious that I have been, and am by inclination, a tory voter, for which I make no apology. It should be noted that Tony Blah inherited the current fiscal situation, he did NOT achieve it. Over eighteen years Maggie Thatcher's government reduced inflation from 21.9% inherited from Wilson/Callaghan to less than 3%, before she went mad and imploded. Much of what they did was wrong, but at the least, they did try.

Looking at the period 1997 to date, it is hard to find anything constructive that TB has achieved, or any positive sign of effort. Given his emphasis on education, and the way he has driven teachers out of that field, his end of term report won't read "Could do better", but more likely "Couldn't do Worse:- 1 out of 10 for knowing his name".

So, for me, I shall vote tory again. I won't get a tory government (OK, cos I don't want this one), but I'll remove a tiny bit of Tony's power to do things in my name that I'd rather he didn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:35 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian about this very topic:
        
How to defeat New Labour - and still re-elect Labour

Basdically he's suggesting a kind of tactical voting aimed at picking out which Labour cabndidates deserve support, and which would be better defeated, with the idea of getting a reduced Labour majority, in which it'd be a lot harder for Blair to get stuff like Iraq and creeping privatisation through.

"Perhaps someone with the time and technical know-how will construct a website for progressive tactical voters."

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

It seems that politics is for some people a hobby or specator sport, thats fine.

But if it's purpose is not only understand but to change things you have to get involved, are you going to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Forthcoming UK election - important issue
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

" A Liberal vote is a wasted vote"