Beginner Songwriter

Subject: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST,Cassie in S. C.
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 08:47 PM

I went to a beginner songwriting class tonight, and was told that in order to write songs professionally, the verses 'must' rhyme throughout the song. When I write songs, if a verse happens to rhyme, that's fine. However, I don't try to craft verses to rhyme with others. I want to write folk songs professionally, and I'm wondering if I must follow the songwriting rule I was given tonight. How do you go about writing songs?

Yours,
Cassie

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Bert
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

You must NEVER follow any specific rule that others may give you. You have to do what works for you.

I have a song that not only doesn't rhyme it doesn't even resolve musically. AND I pinched the tune.

People seem to like it though.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

Hi Cassie, I've been writing folk songs for many years and I've had some success with them as well. Some of my songs have been recorded by other artists and 9 of my songs have been signed to music publishers. Some of my songs are currently being submitted for possible placement in a movie.

You certainly don't have to rhyme your lines all the way through the songs. If a song is well written and communicates something to the listener there are many people that will be interested. As it turns out, the songs that I've had success with have all had rhyming lines. Most folk singers (and folk music publishers) want a well structured song (verses, chorus, bridge) that rhymes.

I don't want to discourage you from writing songs that don't rhyme, I just wanted to pass on my own experience. You might just find a publisher or artist that loves your creations as much as you do. That's what makes this business so great.

Best wishes,
Mike

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:28 PM

If what you're saying is that the verses have to rhyme with one another instead of the lines within a verse rhyming, there may be a misunderstanding. I think 'rules' exist to help those who need them, much like the lines in a coloring book. If you know how to draw, you don't need the lines. I think you need to learn the rules though, in order to consciously decide you don't want to follow them. You just about have to break the rules, or your songs will be formulaic, 'cookie-cutter' songs.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 10:58 PM

Rhyming is a tool, like meter and metaphor. You learn how to use it to best effect. For example, internal rhymes are very powerful, mainly because they ar eoften not noticed the way end rhymes are.

If a rhyming scheme interferes with the impact and velocity of a song's intent, though, then it should be cast out. All the technique in the world only exists to augment communication. Technique being held as senior to communication is a waste of effort unless you are just practicing discipline for the sake of learning how to do a technique well.

You should be able to write rhyming lines at will, and then not do so when it suits your purpose not to.

As for rhyme schemes, they are usually complete within the individual verse. Requiring some linking rhyme from the first to the second verse (such as "all first lines must end in "...tam") is arbitrary, and arbitraries cut communication. There's a rule for you if you want one!

A

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Arkie
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:03 PM

Think about why you want to write songs. Do you have things that you want to say?.   Do you want to write for self satisfaction or to have music published? If you are writing for personal expression you can make your own rules. If you want music published you may be good enough to get publishers to accept your style, but most likely you will need to play by the publisher's rules. Listen to songs and figure what makes a good song. The more enduring writers may not have studied song writing but they listened to music and it became a part of them.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:29 PM

My favorite English prof told us (I'm not sure who she was quoting; I'm paraphrasing here anyway) that
the person who has an urgent message to communicate is less likely to be a great writer
than the person who simply likes to play with words.

I found that extremely encouraging; perhaps you will, too...

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:58 PM

The only rule in songwriting is that you must understand what you are doing. After that, it's up to your audience, if you are good enough to attract one.

Don't go to classes unless you really have to. Listen to everything you can, very closely. Ask yourself what songwriters whose work you enjoy are doing. Work out how they are doing it. Experiment. Buy a large wastepaper bin, and don't be afraid to use it.

Hardly anybody can survive by writing songs for a living (especially not "folk songs" whatever that means) though you might make a little money from time to time, eventually, if you work very hard at it. Don't give up the day job.

Oddly enough, that isn't meant to be discouraging. Stick with it, and if you acquire the knack you'll never be bored for the rest of your life. And you may strike lucky.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: mg
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:50 AM

Here are my thoughts on the matter, based on such writers as Robert Burns, Stephen Foster, and some contemporary writers that I really like the best.

1. They use very short and simple words.
2. They rhyme almost exactly every time...a few near misses but nothing way out of rhyme.
3.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: mg
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:55 AM

oops. Wasn't done.
3. The rhythm is 99% of the time perfect, and the accent is on the right syllables.
4. The words sort of flow nicely as in normal speech.
5. They do not have to tell a story.
6. They do not have to use good grammar.
7. The song does not have to make sense, hence all the discussions about Carrickfergus, Raglan Road, American Pie etc.
8. The very best of songs often say the exact place and the exact time..in 1880 when flowers were a brilliant hue..on the 23rd day in teh month of June in the year of 54..etc.
9. Likewise they often give names..my name is Jon Johnson I come from Wisconsin..
10. They can not be too simple but they can easily and swiftly get too long or complicated (doo dah doo dah).
11. They have a low ratio of words to musical beats.
12. They can be sung by the common man or woman, and if they are, then you have a true song...
13. They are out there in the universe whizzing around the world and just turn your radio on and bring down a few.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:56 AM

Dylan's "Hard Rain's a'Gonna Fall" didn't rhyme. It's a fantastic song. You write one that good and no one will care. However, I'll toss my 'vote' with Alaska Mike on this. Rhyme allows people to try 'n outguess the writer--a game for them to play. Also, part of the art/craft is saying exactly what you want and having it scan AND rhyme, IMO. Best wishes and best luck be with you.

BM

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: goodbar
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:30 AM

don't let anyone tell you how to write your songs. just do what you think is best.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:27 AM

I have had 2 or 3 of my songs recorded and people seem to like what I write but I wouldnt begin to tell someone else what to do or how to write. What I have found helpful in the couple of years is people give me a song challenge - write a song with x word in it and make it rhyme or write a song about a certain person or theme or event. Its not that they end up particularly good songs but it gives you practice to develop your own style and to play with words and rhythm etc. Practice your craft and you will develop a style that you are comfortable with - classes might encourage you to write more or might put you off - only you know if they will help you.
I was once told a song should be able to tell your story in three or four verses but look at some of the most well known songs - they go on forever. There are no rules in music

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:44 AM

I like songs where the thoughts go much further than the words. Eleanor Rigby comes to mind - full of small images that move your imagination.

Rhymes may help or hinder. Try to rhyme too much and you can end up like this

Stu

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Micca
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:59 AM

Rhyme, as many have already said is a bit "take it or leave it" but RHYTHM is KING!! and if Possible(a rare luxury if you are using original tunes) have the Tune in your head or even put the number of feet on the paper your are writing the lyrics on ( dah dum dum Dah dum dum Dah dum) and then fit the words to the rhythm. Some times rhymed words establish their own rhythm ,but non-rhymed really need you to be aware of the underlying rhythm which can entirely change the snse of the poem.
an example
Awake for morning in the Bowl of night
Has flung the stone that puts the stars to flight
and Lo! the hunter of the East has Caught
the Sultans turrett in a Noose of Light
Omar Khyyam trans Fitzgerald
Now try the same words to the tune of "Hernandos Hideaway"
Finally ALWAYS carry a notebook!!! when the Muse strikes , BE READY,

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:21 AM

The quality of a song is a result of many factors, of which rhyme is but one. An interesting rhythm, an interesting tune, an interesting subject (an interesting storyline), interesting use of words/juxtapositions, ability to create mental images in the listener, 'catchiness' and ease of learning by the listener, a good 'hook', an interesting arrangement, all play a role. Some of these elements are about content - others, like rhyme, are about format.

Where one or two of the elements are sufficiently strong, then they can carry the song to higher quality levels even if the other elements are comparatively weaker. Take 'Whiter shade of pale', where the strong tune and the creation of strong images supercedes the lack of storyline or recognisable theme.

Songs that are strong in format but weak in content can still become very popular, but they are destined to be the butt of jokes in future years ('Agadoo-doo-doo'). Conversely, songs that are strong in content but weak in format run the risk of appearing too 'esoteric' (depends also on the theme) and may only be liked by a small elite. But if the latter have a theme with a wide appeal, they will catch on. And if they are strong in both content and format, they may become 'classics'.

As a songwriter, you will find that you have natural strengths and weaknesses among those elements. Don't be coy - recognise them and write to your strengths while trying to improve on your weaknesses.

So you don't HAVE to have rhyme, if you are sufficiently strong in other areas. But that should never be an excuse for laziness, i.e. for not attempting to rhyme, if you can, without damaging the integrity of the rest of your creation.

Last summer I attended a week-long workshop with one of the great songwriters of our time (and a member of Mudcat) - someone who made a good living out of this for 40 years, so he must know a few tricks. He said many things that week that will stay in my mind forever, but one sticks out (my wording):

"If you have a great idea for a song and/or a great tune, you owe it to your idea to do the best for it and to avoid cutting corners. You owe it to put in the time and effort in crafting it to the best of your ability. And you owe it to your audience too. So when you've finished, go back and chek - do your rhymes match? Can the be improved? Can you achieve internal rhyme as well as the standard end-of-line one? If you can improve on it, then you must"

And Robb Johnson told me something his Dad (a poet) always said to him: "A poem is never finished - it is only abandoned".

It applies equally to songs.

So, you don't HAVE to have rhyme - but if you don't, just make sure it isn't out of laziness.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: JulieF
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

Having written a grand total of one song, my experience was that how the words fit with the tune is very much more important than the rhyme.
I have heard songs where the words are wonderful, they rhyme beautifully but the person who wrote them have no feeling of how the music moves.   But there again I'm really a fustrated musician at heart for me the tune always comes first. I can't sing something if I don't like the tune

Good luck with the writing

Julie

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Charlie2K
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

Great thread; I'm also a beginner songwriter with just one completed and millions of ideas. I've been a long time wondering - how do other people do it. I thought I'd add a thank you comment for all the wonderdul tips.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST,rhyzla
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:19 AM

El Greko's comments above are very good, and well thought through.

As a songwriter of over 30 years, and a provider of songwriting workshops, I try to encourage others to be imaginative first and foremost, and then to use form to arrange the song in your own mind.

Beyond that, there are no rules, only tools!!

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 09:38 AM

A nice point, that they are tools rather than rules; but it is in the nature of tools to work well when used well.

I also recommend turning out lots of songs. One exercise you can pursue, if you like, is looking up all the old Song Challenges here onthe Cat (threads witht he name "Song Challenge xxx") and try your hand at them, see what others have done.   If you're serious about it, turning out volume is a good way to start.

A

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Vixen
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 09:43 AM

YY said wrote "the person who has an urgent message to communicate is less likely to be a great writer than the person who simply likes to play with words."

Ain't that the truth.

In the words of another poet (Muriel Rukeyser) "Keep your word-hoard dry". Cultivate a large, diverse, and polyglot vocabulary, then use it very, very, very judiciously.

Also,

If you can make the form (i.e. rhyme and rhythm) reflect content, you'll strengthen your lyric/song structure. E.g. songs about chaos are more powerfully chaotic if their rhymes and rhythms are disruptive; songs that tell stories are more easily followed if they have rhymes and rhythms that repeat and progress in a logical fashion.

ABOVE ALL, however, is HAVE FUN!!! *PLAY*!!!

Just my $0.02

V

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:41 AM

Songs, especially the kind of songs we like here, have VERY VERY VERY strictly defined structures--anybody that tell you different tells you wrong--

At bottom, though, the structure is only the vehicle for the message--which has to be strong, clear, and compelling--

The problem with most songwriting workshops (most writing workshops, most creative workshops)is that it is easy to teach people about rhyming and rhythmic structures, but not easy to teach them how to think and express great thoughts--

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST,Cassie
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:54 PM

Thanks for helping out this 'developing' singer, songwriter and guitarist.) One other thing that turned me off about the songwriting class is I wondered if someone might take my lyric and melody ideas and 'later' use them for their own ideas (not that I think I'm Dylan, etc.)

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Vixen
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:57 PM

What M.Ted said...

Technique is easy compared with having something meaningful to sing about.

V

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:59 PM

The man who taught WW2 fighter ace Douglas Bader to fly, used to say "Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools".

Good advice! If something sounds good, and says what you intended, then rhyme is of secondary importance. It matters not that some listeners will criticise. Others will hail it as innovative, imaginative, and fresh.

There are hundreds of books of blank verse, poetry without rhyme, which sell very well, so why should song be any different?

Just keep doing it your way.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From:
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:33 PM

Hi Cassie. I'm not a songwriter, but I LISTEN.

AS someone above said, a song can't be too simple. Good songs tend to be simple. Great songs are memorable. Some times the music/tune hits them, and other times, the words. Occasionaly, it's the story the song is telling. Believe me, a good song will have a story to tell.

Now, about rhyme. It is a tricky thing. Sometimes a clever rhyme can be the hook for the audience. However, those above who said it, rhythm is the king. The song which sticks is going to have a strong rhythm that the words can easily align with. You can craft a song with a marvelous tune, and wonderful words, but if it can't maintain its internal rhythm, very few people will sing it. The singer would know it, but if the audience can't follow it musically it's not going to provoke them enough to sing it.

Some people write all the time. Lyrics don't have to rhyme, but it's easier on the audience if you do.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: mg
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:53 PM

I recommend not writing about silly things unless you are really attracted to that sort of song. If you are, proceed with vigor. If not, you will probably find that the best songs are about primal things, love, shipwrecks, coal mining disasters; but often they are also about pretty places, especialy about pretty girls in pretty places, like Rose of Mooncoin, the Star of Logy Bay etc. I wouldn't worry too much about being trite..that is half the trick. Probably the other half is not to be completely trite...like making a new chocolate cake recipe...if you keep to the basic structure and get creative it might be great..if you add too many odd things it might end up odd, but chances are someone will still like it...mg

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:00 PM

Cheers for M. Ted's clarity, and ditto to what he said; "great thoughts" is the most obscure issue but one of the most important ones on a a songwriter's plate -- not necessarily philosophical but greatly human will do.

Look at the wonderful string of curses in "Nell Flaherty's Drake".   That...to my mind...is great song-writing even though it is about an ordinary, even petty but intense human desire. The important thing is finding the perspective that will be important in human terms, because that is where your song will find traction. Great human thoughts surface in the most ordinary blues music, for example -- "a ten dollah woman, latchin on to a 2-dollar man" comes to mind.

Being able to say a lot with few words is certainly part of that side of things as well.

A

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:20 PM

On inspiration:

Take a good look at your bellybutton now and stop looking at it thereafter - what I mean is, beware of the danger of introspection; something that is important to you may not be of interest of others. (Some people advise against the use of first person - "I"; I would modify that, to allow use of fist person only if that person is not supposed to be you).

Instead, walk in other people's shoes. Put yourself in their place and judge that way how interesting your song might be.

Be alert and perceptive (I don't know if one can train themselves to this, but if you cannot do it, you're stuffed); at least try.

Choose subjects carefully; has it been done before, and if so do you think you can address the same subject better? It's best if your subjects are original (examples: Shame at inability to provide for one's own - or a child's impressions from a visit to a funfair).

Sometimes you can address a well-worn subject from an unusual perspective that gives new insights (examples: Lullaby to an unborn child - or seeing nature as the fingerprint of a creator).

In seeking originality of themes, don't forget that you are a child of your time. There are lots of new woes and joys to write about (examples: The 9-to-5-ness of most people's work experience - or the advent of child soldiers or suicide bombers).

For all that you need bags of lateral thinking (to find the unusual themes or angles). Unless you are into chemically induced widening of perception, my guess is you will find that you write best when you are freshly woken up, rested but with your mind not yet too firmly anchored on reality. I don't only write crap when I am tired, but I write only crap when I'm tired.

Here's one guideline that I use: Write the songs that you wish someone else had written; the ones you would go out and buy someone else's album for. And then be surprised and thankful that they chose to make their appearance through you.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:23 PM

Cassie in S. C.

There are many threads on this forum about songwriting. Search for them and peruse.

As George Bernard Shaw said. "The Golden Rule is that there are no Golden Rules". But then he was by then a master at his craft.

On the subject of rhymes - there are many alternatives to what rhyme does. It punctuates in a way that readers just don't, or the readers/singists punctuate as they see it. Rhyme forces the listener to override the singer. You need punctuation and commas and full stops just don't translate. The music - if you are skilled - will puntcutate also. If only you sing the song then you can control it. Punctuation gives the listener time to think - and they need it.
And remember - what the listener takes from the song is what they want to hear. If you want to guide them you have to help them. Rhymes are satisfying and can be predicted - giving the listener more time to understand.

Alternatives? Anaphora - repetion of a word or phrase. near rhyme, aliteration, and the mother of all anaphora - chorus.

If you can't rhyme all songs fully you are missing-out on a big starter pack of easy songwriting.

Sometimes it is better to telegraph the rhyme by making it so obvious and then refuse it - like naughty words in a humorous song.

I would counsel you to use rhyme more for a while and see what happens - then you have a choice of skills.

Most of all - if you just dun gotta write that song - do it. It is the over-riding wisah to compose that is the most important - if it is the money you still just dun gotta write the song or it will SHOW in the result.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:51 PM

It's a craft, and like all crafts it can be learned. Once learned it can be used in ways no person has ever used it in before. But first..it must be learned.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM

If you are going to write songs, write for performance--

Write songs to sing when you perform at the sing a round--

Write something for Aunt Hilda's Wedding--

Write an Elegy, then sing it in a Country Churchyard--

Write a headbanging song for Myrtle's young Ned to sing on the occasion of his parole--

Write a song protesting embalming practices then sing it at a wake-


Open your mouth and sing, then edit heavily--then sing again--

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From:
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

By the way. There are a variety of rhymes.

The one we normally think of are "sound-alikes", and the words look alike as well. In Gaelic poetry, one of the most common schemes is "vowel" sound similarities. This type of rhyme doesn't normally appear from line to line at the end.

It uses alliteration of vowels within the words. The words could be quite different except for the vowel within the word. It also doesn't have to end words the same. Words that have the same sound vowel are picked, and the rhyme could be at the end of the line, end of one line and start of the next, or even from top to bottom all in the middle of the line.

Lots of choices. And that's way before getting to the rhyme of alliteration.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM

On a lighter note: Without rhymes, most of the limericks would no longer be funny, as they depend on rhyme to have the listener guessing the final word - which they traditionally avoid stating.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:30 PM

If I remember it right - Keith Hancock's song has a chorus wot went -

When I were a lad, Eeeeeee times they were bad, but not as bad as when my dad were a lad. When my dad were a lad, Eeeee times they were bad, but not as bad as when my dad's dad were a lad.

scansion? even with the tune and the songwriter singing it was so odd it had to be humorous even ignoring the text. The repetition of such simple words might be boring, they are not exactly erudite BUT there is a message powerful enough to make the humour even funnier, because it is truer - on more than one level. And the audience had to hear the chorus several times to prise-out the meaning. The puzzle referred to above. By then we could sing it - almost.
You can't write a rule for that - except the affect on the audience. And there you have it - know your audience's preferrences - how? go out and try - run the guantlet and don't listen to ONE person, take it all in.

Overuse of rhyme - so what - but Keith was at the peak of his songwiting then.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: silverfish
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:47 PM

Read all the above and THINK about what has been written.
THEN practice. And THEN THINK SOME MORE. With some more practice after that, you'll get the hang of it ok. Understand what the likes of El Greko and Cassie are saying. Pay minute attention to every phrase and line - does it contribute something new or interesting or memorable to the song.
When you think it's finished, put it to one side for a while. Then practice it for performance - do the words come easily to the tongue or is it impossible for anyone other than a G&S freak to sing?
Then sing it to strangers. Listen and look for genuine reactions. Store impressions. Look for new ideas - write them down. Accept criticism as gracefully as you can (hard as that may be) and bear it in mind. It's a bit like giving birth - it bloody well hurts but it's soooooo satisfying when it leaves you and lives by the interpretations (often in ways you never considered)of others.
Have FUN. Work HARD. It's WORTH IT!
silverfish

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Micca
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

Oh, BTW somthing else I find works well for me, when you think the song is complete and the final shine is given to the words, put it to one side completely for AT LEAST 24 hours ( a whole weekend is better)!! dont think about it, hum it , look at the text, NOTHING. then open it and see if it seems fresh, and if it does, revise, and sing it through, at least once aloud. If you still like it it is probably ready, but you may still make changes as Performance changes the alliteration and "feel" of a song.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:43 PM

I am reminded that you mustn't put too much stock in what any one person says--if people like your song, you will know(as the other way)--

It is best to try a new song out on a group of people, never only one--the principle being that, though a popular song may sell a million copies, there are more than 200 million folks in the US(for example), and the more you play for, the more likely you are to find someone who likes it --

--I think nothing written above will help you as much as simply reading and studying the songs (and poetry) that speak to you--and, to repeat, there is no test of a song as good as in performing it for an audience--

Also, trust your own feelings about your work above others, no matter how learned and venerable they may seem--

You said something about being afraid others might borrow your ideas--you shouldn't worry too much about this, first because each writer will create something different from the same idea, and second because most people have so little imagination that they will fail to see potential of a good idea anyway--

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: mg
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:16 AM

And there is always a need for good drinking type songs..like what have they done to the old rose and crown...can't have too many of those.. mg

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:24 AM

the best songs are about primal things. Hey Mary, laughter is a primal thing and silly songs that can produce it are in great demand.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:58 AM

Quote (Amos): "A nice point, that they are tools rather than rules; but it is in the nature of tools to work well when used well.

I also recommend turning out lots of songs.   One exercise you can pursue, if you like, is looking up all the old Song Challenges here onthe Cat (threads witht he name "Song Challenge xxx") and try your hand at them, see what others have done.   If you're serious about it, turning out volume is a good way to start.

A "

Yes. Something that pops to mind is that Irving Berlin composed about 1500 songs and the wonderful Shel Silverstein wrote over 900!   If you pen hundreds of songs and 1 out of every 50 to 100 catches on, I'd say you ain't doin' too bad! :-)

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM

There is lots of good advice here from erudite people who care about this subject a lot. It is worth checking out older threads on this subject, as there is plenty of good stuff from fine writers like Jerry Rasmussen, McGrath of Harlow and El Greko to name but three.
I have a bit of experience of being on TV and radio and have played a few gigs along the way. I look for certain things when a new song starts to emerge.
The first quality I want is resonance. I tend to build songs around one line, which sums up the essence of what the song is about. This line can be the first line of the verse, the last line of the the verse, a line of the chorus or even (if the song has one) a part of the bridge. It has to sound natural, be easy to sing and stand up to repetition. Most of the best songs you know have a line like that.
So I start off with this line and say, "Wouldn't it be nice if there was a song which went…." I then try and listen in my mind to those lines which most naturally go with that first line. When I have that shape, the crossing out and rewriting begins.
From my days as a writing student, one of the most important pieces of advice I heard was, "Don't tell it – show it." Off the top of my head, a good example is Dylan's "Tangled Up In Blue":
"I was standing at the side of the road
Rain falling on my shoes".
You know it was raining heavily, because the narrator had to look down at his shoes rather than up at the sky. Great writers have an innocuous way of showing you more. The first verse of "Eleanor Rigby" has that quality too. McCartney does not tell you she is lonely – he shows you graphically.
Another tip I picked up from learning to write drama, was that if you have characters, never put words into their mouths. Listen to what they are saying and write that. Your characters should speak in their words – not yours! Jerry Rasmussen wrote a very good post on the importance of listening on one of these threads.
If I come out with something which sounds natural and which I could imagine someone else saying or singing, I am usually happier with the results. I try to leave lines uncluttered by extra syllables. "The man I met yesterday" is usually easier to sing than "The man that I met yesterday". It is easier to sing less syllables and it gives you more flexibility with your phrasing. If your lyrics are good they will also be easier to learn.
My final piece of advice is that you should never ever write twee songs about your feelings like Graham Nash does. This is because they are boring, only Graham Nash fans will listen to them and if you do, I shall come and shoot your cat!
Good luck with your new craft.

Subject: RE: Beginner Songwriter
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM

Problem with classes is that you are being exposed to "opinions". They're OK as long as you don't feel you have to agree with the teacher or the workshop participants.

Stephen Sondheim says to get a legal size pad of yellow lined paper and sit down and write, write, write until you get it right and Ira Gershwin says that lyrics are like mosaics. Take disparate lines and string 'em together.

As to content, it's your call.

It doesn't hurt to know about the technical sides of poetry such as stuff like alliteration, identities and rhymes, metonomy, specificity, scansion, pentameters, and all that junk which you can learn from basic books on poetry and lyrics.

But if you don't, and you write good songs anyways, who cares.

Frank