BS: Why do we need money?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:48 PM

Yes, there is a tendency that way.

Gargoyle, your using the example of Jamestown in this discussion is like me making a general statement about long-haired young people in the late 60's, and using Charles Manson as the standard by which to judge them all. Pointless, provocative, and of no help whatsoever in discussing the subject. All it sheds light on is your own great satisfaction in being prejudiced and thoroughly negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:30 PM

LH .... I'm afraid we are regressing back to a society of robber barons, with the relative deterioration of our socials services. Worker's wages are eroding to a level we're we exist on and are controlled by debt. Debt, yes we are becoming a society were money is irrevelant, but were debt is the source of barter.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:08 PM

I believe James Jones established JONESTOWN is the South American wilderness for Nirvana on earth. Music, God, Music, Work, Music, Food, God and more Music. No bills, no bill collectors - just drink the kool-aide when it is distributed.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:04 PM

As of January debt cards have become accepted throughout the EU (it was about time)unfortuantely the UK still clings to an archaic system (that long ago forgot what the value of stearling was.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

Why do we need money?

So that we know when we're broke; that's at the same time we don't have any money.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:57 PM

BTW (thread drift) - Just saw the Motorcycle Diaries. Not a great flick but interesting and well worth it. Helped me understand how the young Che evolved into the notorious and much-loved, Che.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM

I'm not suggesting an abrupt changeover, Wolfgang. I'm just suggesting a gradual transition...which is exactly what we have seen happening anyway over the last few centuries. We have progressed from a World of robber barons to a World of relatively peaceful societies with some fairly good social services. That's not bad. I'm saying there is further progress yet to be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:09 PM

It'll come in time. Gradually we'll get to a situation where the hoops we have to jump through to run a money system in circumstances where free availability makes more sense will just get too complicated, and the system will just fade away. There are aspects of the Internet experience that presage that.

There's no automatic link between a money system and "human nature". As I said, there was a time before money, and there'll be a time after it. We were humans before money, and we'll still be humans after money.

But the change probably won't happen in our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:24 PM

All the affirmative responses seem to me in near complete ignorance of human nature. This experiment should not be tried for it would end in disaster and loss of wealth and human lives. One can learn from the experiments tried so far even if none of these has tried to get rid of money altogether.

Beware of the well meaning idealists. The chaos they would create is far worse than the present not always pleasant alternative.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:35 AM

Oh. Well, I originally started this thread as a satirical response to another thread called "Why do we need religion?"

My first post was tongue in cheek. I didn't realize at the time that it would result in a serious discussion developing...

We obviously need money right NOW, because society is organized around it at the moment.

If Hesperis were in Cuba, she could have had free and good dental care all her life, and free University education as well (but would have to buy the textbooks, that's all). Many young Cubans who would like to go to university have a hard time with the carrying costs (the books and feeding and maintaining themselves while taking their courses). Some have to put it off because of that...or they do it bit by bit. Nevertheless, the country has made a genuine effort to provide free higher education to all its citizens, and that is a very smart thing for a society to do, in my opinion.

The Cuban revolution was driven by very intense social idealism. It ran onto the rocks of total rejection by the USA (due to kicking out the rich American business concerns in Cuba). That made survival as a society much more difficult in an economic sense. They were shut out of North American and South American trade to a great extent. They then turned to the only other game in town...Russia. The USA, in order to placate its business people, basically drove Castro into the arms of Soviet Russia, thus creating a Communist military base in their own backyard. Dumb. Seriously dumb. They should have made friends with Castro from the beginning...but they never would...because Big Business runs the USA and does not forgive revolutionaries who take away their monopoly and spread it out among the common people. No sir. They kill people who do stuff like that. Castro has proven quite hard to kill. He's a tough one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:15 AM

Actually, i think the initial question is flawed. The only people who need money are those who don't have it...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,Soma
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

Frozen Desire

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:14 AM

Thanks Little Hawk, I do get rather wound up over the use of the word socialism, I apologise. It is about defending an idea as much as etymology, the movement has decided that whatever word we use for a moneyless society people will want to corrupt it so we stick to the S word.

I nearly got a job in Trinidad but was put off by reading the local newspaper on-line.

Now everyone is agreed that a moneyless society is a practical alternative to capitalism you can start campaigning for socialism and even join one of the WSM companion parties (UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia). We are standing for Vauxhall in the coming UK general election. We have no leaders and all activities are voluntary. We are the only political parties working for own demise.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: hesperis
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:59 AM

Even in Star Trek, some people had things that others didn't have. The elite and the non-tech had hand-made things rather than generated things. The hand-made things increased in value because they were unique. They could be copied perfectly, but to have the original would add to the status of the individual.

I definitely know I'd be capable of more real work if I had more of my basic needs covered and wasn't spending all my time on trying to find low-cost dental work and doctors... and if I'd had a chance to go to college.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:36 PM

Yup. Hoarding is based on 2 things: Sytemic inequality...and fear of present or future scarcity. In a family where some of the children ate well while others ate very poorly, precisely the same thing would happen...plus a lot of anger and probably violence. A society IS a very large family.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:25 PM

There are a whole range of activities where it would be much easier to dispense with money, and just have things freely available. Public Transport and supermarkets could operate perfectly well on some basis where people would take what they required, perhaps with some credit limit - modern technology woudl make that relatively simple.

I imagine that at some time there will be a society operating on that basis - Little Hawk's quoting of the imagined world of the Star Trek Next Generation is relevant here. It sees to me that money is a phenomenon of a certain phase of society we are going through - there was a time before money, and there will be a time after it. The pseudo-socialism of the 20th century came a few generations too eary, before the technology was there to make it practicable.

Wanting more than you conveniently need is a reflection of a sense there isn't enough to go around, and you might need it tomorrow. It's a bit crazy really, but it's a crazy world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:36 PM

Thanks for the links, Piers. On just a quick look (don't have much time right now)...yes, I'd say that's an excellent article on Cuba. It is no paradise. It is far from perfect. What it is though, is a tremedous step up from the grotesquely corrupt conditions that preceded Castro's successful revolution on that island. While visiting there I met many people who supported the revolution and many who did not...all for their own particular reasons. The ones who did not tended to be young men...people with no memory of life under the Batista government or of the Revolution. Castro is all they have ever known, and like most young men they are tired of the "old men in charge" and restless for a change. They have little or no idea what the Revolution gave them...but they do long for DVD players and stuff like that. There is quite a lack of modern consumer goods in Cuba.

You can buy anything you want in Trinidad at the fancy shopping centres...if you can afford it. Of course, somebody may kill you for it on your way back home...or break into your house and take it. That's why so many people in Trinidad have guard dogs on their property...and broken glass on top of their walls, and stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

I don't know quite in what sense Cuba is socialist. The pioneers of socialist thought (well before the Cuban revolution) described socialism as a moneyless society. Whether the state controls capital or private individuals do it is capitalism and is based on exploitation and minority power.

I highly recommend this article on Cuba.

You are correct to point out that capitalism is a nearly worldwide integrated economic system, and so must be socialism - a society of common ownership democratic control and free access to goods and services. Nations are part of the capitalist infrastructure. That is why socialist parties have formed the World Socialist Movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:30 PM

Perfectly stated, Blissfully Ignorant! Bravo.

In most North American Indian societies one found that certain people had more honor and prestige than others...or more expertise...but certainly not more money. They managed fine with a society that was basically pretty egalitarian in a material sense. And such a society is far just and less crime-ridden than a society divided into rich and poor.

I've seen the example in Cuba...as opposed to Trinidad. You've got a case of two very nice islands. One has socialism, and a fairly equal share of material things across the board...and very low crime and excellent health standards. The other (Trinidad) has the typical capitalist division of a few very rich, a middle class, and many desperately poor. Because of that division, Trinidad also has a VERY high crime rate, streets that are totally unsafe at night, and hundreds of thousands of people with no health care at all.

I know which way I like better, although I like both Trinidad and Cuba. Cuba is a society which has attempted to achieve social justice. Trinidad is a society which has attempted to exploit the land and the people for all the money that a few could get...with disastrous results for the people and the land.

They both have money, however. The prevailing $ySStem in the World today will not ALLOW a society to exist without money. That is unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: *Laura*
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

That's what I meant - 'a way to crystallize credit' - but Amos put it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:43 PM

Why do we need money? Simple, it's so some people can have more than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

But Eastern European state capitalists projects were not moneyless societies. Whether a bureaucratic elite of the state effectively owns and controls the means of production or private individuals do it means that most people don't. Socialism is social ownership and thus democratic control and free access to goods and services, those things didn't happen and couldn't happen in east europe.

I think a moneyless society could only operate on a world scale, as the money society opereates, and small scale attempts would be bound to fail.

Piers

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:49 PM

One can learn from failed experiences even if not everything was perfect. The East European socialism has failed not because it didn't go far enough or because it had the wrong elite or an elite at all, it has failed for more systematic reasons and would fail again even with some details changed.

A very small community could be run without money, but a larger cannot.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

Why do we need money?

For one .... it allows us to have internet service. No money to pay for the service, no service. If we had no service we would not have the capibility to access the Mudcat and answer such thought provoking questions as this.

Then again, do we really need internet access??

And then again, and again .... do we really need money?????

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: s&r
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:54 AM

£5 notes are mainly green


Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:45 AM

I once lived on an island where very little money changed hands. Of course you needed money if you left the island but largely it was a barter system on the island.

example: I baked bread. I would trade the bread for coffee, butter and sugar. The fisherman would let me choose in salmon in the hold for a loaf of homemake bread. In turn I would take it home and smoke it. I would then trade it for more coffee, butter, oil or what have you.

Times have changed and now the island (population 350) has its own mint. Oh Canada!

http://www.eligi.ca/lasqueti/

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:49 AM

So, we don't really need money--what we actually need is the stuff money can buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM

Eastern Europe was run by a privileged elite, consisting of Communist Party bigwigs and military bigwigs (also in the Communist Party). That is not democratic socialism, it's a one-party dictatorship over the many by the few. It failed because it was undemocratic and because it attempted to maintain a military spending spree which was beyond its means, thus condeming its civilian society to unnecessary shortages and austerity.

That is not socialism. Real democratic socialism has rarely been attempted in this World in modern times. It does not require political parties. Neither does our mixed capitalist/socialist society of today. Political parties are, in my opinion, an aberration. One party is probably the worst way to go, since it leads directly to dictatorship. 2 is the next worst. Several is next after that. None is best of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:18 PM

Regardless of its form money is an idea back by reciprocal confidence. It is a way to crystallize credit, basically.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:33 PM

Isn't money just a sophistocated sort of 'IOU' that has become valuable in it's own right?
Or something like that.
xLx

p.s. Ford Prefect is a LEGEND! I LOVE HIM! He is unbelieveably WICKED! yeah! woop woop!

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:10 PM

Wolfgang - was there any moneyfree societies in Eastern Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM

people are lacking in intelligent and inspired leadership (Little Hawk)

No, the problem why it won't work lies far deeper. The history how the socialism in East Europe has failed shows that.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:57 AM

Wolfgang dear chap. The tragedy of the commons is flawed because it assumes not the complete absence of property rights over productive resources generally but an absence of such rights over one particular resource (grazing land) while the others (the cattle, produce and so on) are privately owned and also that their owners are motivated by the desire to maximise their short-term economic gain. The parable, as so often with defenders of the capitalist status quo, transposes the behaviour of those making decisions about production under capitalism into a quite different historical context.

In socialism, where there will be no property rights over land, the sea or any other natural resource, there would not be any no property rights over instruments of production either. The cattle as well as the land would be commonly owned. In these circumstances those responsible for looking after the cattle would not be under any pressure to behave in the way he presumes. They would merely be carrying out a particular function on behalf of the community in a social context where the aim of production would be to satisfy needs on a sustainable basis and not to make profits. The community would democratically draw up a programme for the use of the grazing land, which would obviously take steps to avoid overgrazing.

This is also the case concerning the psychological/human nature arguments against socialism. They observe the way that people behave in capitalism and say that is the way humans always behave, irrespective that for the vast majority of human history there has been no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:31 AM

Well, if you leave them in the damp long enough that happens...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:21 AM

Pound notes did in fact look green at one point. Of course, that could have been just me... :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:01 AM

Your "tragedy of the commons" example is exactly what happens, Wolfgang, when people are lacking in intelligent and inspired leadership. If you don't have leaders who are capable of looking at the whole situation and understanding all its factors, then you have the equivalent of a ship that is lacking an experienced captain, a navigator, an engineer, and other required personnel and merely has a whole bunch of uninformed passengers. That ship will undoubtedly come to grief, probably causing the deaths of most who are aboard it.

It is not, however, a refutation of a well-led society which does not utilize money as a motivating factor in people's lives. Not at all.

You could have a society where the motivating factors were: accomplishment, promotion to a more interesting and satisfying job through that accomplishment, creativity, respect, and challenge...accompanied by a responsible approach to managing resources and ecology and population growth.

For a dramatic demonstration of such a society in action, view a series of episodes from the 80's TV show, "Star Trek Next Generation". It was quite advanced in concept, and made our present society appear to be exactly what it is: a horribly primitive competitive mess based on individual greed, violence, and acquisition.

We are capable of better than we are doing. Not Utopia, just better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:45 AM

Maybe the following passage has something to do with why Douglas Adams decided to make it green. I love this part of the story where he draws a clever analogy between the fiscal policy of the Golgafrinchams and our monetary system - the point being that the paper money has no intrinsic value, and its relative value is very much dependent on many different circumstances, some quite arbitrary and contrived.


'How can you have money,' demanded Ford, 'if none of you actually produces anything? It doesn't grow on trees you know.'

'If you would allow me to continue...'

Ford nodded dejectedly.

'Thank you. Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich.'

Ford stared in disbelief at the crowd who were murmuring appreciatively at this and greedily fingering the wads of leaves with which their track suits were stuffed.

'But we have also,' continued the management consultant, 'run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying one ship's peanut.'

Murmurs of alarm came from the crowd. The management consultant waved them down.

'So in order to obviate this problem,' he continued, 'and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and... er, burn down all the forests. I think you'll all agree that's a sensible move under the circumstances.'

The crowd seemed a little uncertain about this for a second or two until someone pointed out how much this would increase the value of the leaves in their pockets whereupon they let out whoops of delight and gave the management consultant a standing ovation. The accountants amongst them looked forward to a profitable autumn.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:21 AM

The hitchhikers quote suddenly got me thinking. I'd always sort of asumed that Douglas Adams was writing for a British audience (I'm sure the radio show at least was) and British money isn't green. Was it previously green? Is there some other significance to green? Did it get translated for American's, and if so, what does the British version say? The first few Harry Potters were translated for American release. It was kind of amusing reading the British version, where Duddly's first word was "shan't" while in the American version it's "won't"

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:15 AM

Jenny:

Thanks for the grin!! I love that whacky guy.

This question is unrealistic; the notion of a society based on free production and free distribution demonstrates a very limited understanding of how people work.

People strive to get something they desire, They don't get far when they are given everything, with rare exceptions. Furthermore there is no provens ystem for managing such a method of distribution.

But barter is a brake on any organization or expansion, because it gets very bulky. We need money so we don't have to carry around tons of raw goods or complex journals of interlocking trade agreements every day.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:50 AM

"This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy." - Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:43 AM

The tragedy of the commons.
That's why.

Another bunch of well meaning idealists without enough knowledge of economy and the human psyche dreaming of an Utopia that in reality would lead to disaster and death for millions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:41 AM

Money is extremely handy for weighing small amounts of herbs. A 2pence piece weighs one quarter of an ounce, a one pence piece weighs one eighth of an ounce and two ten pence pieces plus a five pence piece weighs one ounce.
Of course you need considerably more than a handful of small denomination coins to purchase the said herbs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:39 AM

Quite so Little Hawk, all we need now is to persuade enough people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:23 PM

"Why do we need money?"

Bribe politicians, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

Yes, indeed you could. We could easily have a moneyless society at this point, and an end to poverty and want, but it would require a much more democratic system and a basic change in people's philosophical understanding of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Piers
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:37 PM

Trots don't talk about a moneyless society, they would prefer state ownership of capital.

Money is necessary in market-based economies to act as an interchangable commodity to exchange commodities, including labour. With labour, employers pay less in wages and salaries tham they get from selling the products of that labour, to return a profit. The productive process is thus exploitative and driven only toward the maximum extraction of surplus resulting in many people unnecessarily going without things they need, wars over resources, miserable working conditions etc, etc.

But this isn't the way it has to be: the productive processes are now so efficient there is the possibility of abundance in all necessary things. There is no need to ration goods and services as there could be enough for everybody. A moneyless society is possible through common ownership and democratic control of production.

You don't need money because you could have world socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:35 PM

this is why

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/money3.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: radriano
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM

Don't know, but why do we need another silly thread from Little Hawk, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:40 PM

It's this loose Trotskite talk that is bringing our countries to its/their knees

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need money?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:01 PM

"Monkeys and booger jokes are always funny" -Dave Barry