What is a good song and why?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:50 PM

I love to hear Priscilla sing.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: mg
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:04 AM

Thanks...you know the tune writer I love is Priscilla Herdman...when she puts her tunes to other people's words.

mg

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

Mary Garvey, you may be basically a tune lover, but you have written some damn fine lyrics too! CANNERY SHED, for one, I used to work in a sardine cannery so that one appeals to me. THE BOATS OF PETER'S RIVER, and ASTORIA BAR. Good stuff. Of course, being an old salt myself, I would have to like them.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:22 PM

A good song is a song that sounds good

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:36 PM

Frank,

I've heard that it took Quinn The Eskimo 6 months to sing "Night And Day"!!   ;-)

Brucie,
Pictures 1 and 2 are good because of all the dead lurking below the surface of each of them. Picture #3 is good in the same way that "LONELY ARE THE BRAVE" was a great movie; you know what is coming. Once again, it is death.

Art

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM

I think that, most of the time, "perfect" in a rhyme should mean unobtrusive.

The odd thing is, meter, getting it to scan, makes far more difference to whether a song or a poem will run easily, but so often people will focus their attention on rhyme.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM

Resonance is an interesting attribute for a song. But some don't resonate for some and others do. Why?

Some of the songs that have wide ranges and yet are memorable without being able to sing them right away are:

Autumn in New York
All The Things You Are
Wimoweh (try singing that high part)
Night and Day
Most all of Stephen Sondheim
of course opera arias

many of these resonate for some and have endured as a result.

What makes a song "have legs"?

Frank

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:54 AM

Cole Porter's lyrics seem to flow effortlessly--and it is because the scans are precise, the rhymes are perfect, and his words are elegantly chosen--it is hard to misremember a Porter lyric, because no alternate wording works as well as the original M.Ted, Feb 17, 2005.

This is a wonderful decription of the art of the poet. Reading this I instantly remembered some songs, especially Der Gute Kamerad, where the tragedy of life and death is described in only three stanzas. It belongs to the treasury of German songs, known by all.

Reading Ted's words I suddenly remembered a song I heard in a pub about 20 years ago: Der Typ neben ihr (The guy on her side). I was astonished to hear such perfect wording, like everyday speech, with perfect rhymes. I heard it only once, but I can't forget the impression it made to me. So I checked Amazon: It is still available, and I shall buy it.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:09 AM

That is so true, alanabit. I recall one song I wrote when I was 14 (?) that is worth anything, IMO. It has a melody I still like today. The words I wrote at the time were pathetic. It was all I kept from over 400 songs I'd written between 1962 and 1965, although I did keep the odd 'line' here and there.

I agree with you that the 'craft' or writing (songs, stories, etc) has to come before, during or after the art, but without a foundation in the craft, the art may happen, but it will be luck and not 'skill'.

I know today by the end of the first few hours whether the thing I'm working on will be good or just another workaday song. I'm sure you are aware of that, too, as are all people who have taken their craft/art seriously.

I think you were right to point out that '"I really like it" is an honest answer, but it falls short of being a well thought out critical response.' and I thank you very much for that remark. It forced me to look at some stuff again, and I hope grow a bit from the considering and the occasional exposition thereafter. You are a good man, Charley Brown.

BM

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:59 AM

I think that Wilfried has given a good example of a song which has the first quality I would identify in songs I like - resonance. It means something very special to him and his mates because of the context in which he first heard it. I believe this is what Brucie is talking about too. I also believe you are right to pint it out. There certainly is a random or unpredictable factor about what moves you or what does not. I do not want to eliminate subjectivity, but I believe we can get closer to a description of a craft.
If we were to look at the list of songs which you quoted earlier Bruce, we would probably identify similar characteristics which we liked about them. Most of the songs which I would dismiss as drivel would have none of those characteristics. There is never (thank God) going to be a rule book for aspiring songwriters. I do think that I have been able to improve by learning more about the craft though.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:48 AM

Jimmy Rodgers made it very popular near that time, and I do believe it was done by the Kingston Trio, also. Love that song.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:24 AM

A good example for Bert's definition is an American song long buried in Carl Sandburg's American Songbag: The Sloop John B.
About 1960 it was sung by a trio (Kingston Singers? Peter, Paul and Mary?) and landed a direct hit in the German Federal Armed Forces.
I want to go home - that was a moving chorus for all the draftees in their barracks, far from home and their loved ones. The words were simple (simplicity is a high art), and the beautiful tune touched the hearts.

The song coincided with the delivery of the new assault rifle G3, standard weapon for more than 40 years. So it started:
What is the use of the G3?
We only get misses.
We are fed up (lit.: our snout is filled up)
And we want to go home ...

Other stanzas were added about the bazooka and the segeant major. You could hear it nearly every evening in the Naafi, and when I got my medical discharge in 1985 it was still sung.

What will happen to this song I don't know, because a new rifle G36 was issued; but when we old draftees meet in a reserves reunion and are filled up to the brim we still sing it again.

Oh them glorious days!

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:10 AM

The first time I saw a copy of this painting by Colville I was in Montreal in the early 1970s. I looked at it for at least twenty minutes, lost in the detail and taken by its 'beauty'. I went to the store which was maybe five minutes away to do some shopping for food. I picked up a head of lettuce and it fell from my hand. I was still thinking about the painting. I was 'horrified' to realize what was about to happen and shocked that it took me forty minutes to realize. IMO, that's art. But I strongly suspect that not all will agree, because perceptions of art are a very personal thing.

Last for today

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:52 AM

To the point: Some folks will respond to the pictures/art/paintings, and others will not. Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, and the beauty of a song is in the ear of a listener. The various works of art above (from "Is this a good painting and why") are considered to be 'masterpieces from the artists, all of whom are Canadian (Arthur Lismer, Tom Thompson and Alex Colville). However, I would not expect all people everywhere to enjoy those paintings as much as I do. They may not like the style; they may not be attracted to that type of art; they may not 'feel' anything from those paintings. They touch me deeply because I am Canadian--and I have been to places like those depicted by Lismer (a member of The Group of Seven) and Thompson (the 'leader' but not a member). The Colville depiction is remarkable from my perspective because of the tension it creates.

The process of writing songs is as many people have mentioned, a balance of infinities. None of us see that far, even on a clear day. That maybe is what I meant when I responded to alanabit.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:42 AM

This?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:40 AM

Or this?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:38 AM

Is this a good painting and why?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:09 AM

Cool.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:44 PM

Sometimes it comes from where you heard it first, as anyone who has experienced a Vin Garbutt performance will tell you. The passion, the commitment, the subject, the ability to make you think, just grabs your attention, and it stays with you forever.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

A lot of what makes a song a GOOD song is the singer , almost as much as the writing - There is one song I do , which I consider a good song , which a mate (also a competent singer) told me he NEVER appreciated until he heard some one else do it !
It all come s back to the Subjective , NOT the Objective !!

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

Picasso said, "Art is a lie that lets you see the truth."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

Stephen Schwartz says that, in the realm of Broadway musicals at least, false rhymes are regarded as poor craft--though it happens from time to time. I tend to agree--and bad scancion is death--

Cole Porter's lyrics seem to flow effortlessly--and it is because the scans are precise, the rhymes are perfect, and his words are elegently chosen--it is hard to misremember a Porter lyric, because no alternate wording works as well as the original--

As to the range question, a song isn't much good for a singalong if most people can't sing it--but it might work pretty well in an opera--

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:31 PM

The important thing with rhymes is that they should never look as if you are saying something for the sake of getting the rhyme, except in a song which is doing that openly for comical purposes.

Otherwise rhymes should just slip in unnoticed, as if it just is happened that the right word happened to be a rhyming word. Basically, as I see it, rhyme is primarily an aid to memory, and a way of helping listeners or readers feel a sense of being at home. Part rhymes can often do that just as well, and often better. Never assume that a part rhyme means the writer just couldn't find a full rhyme.

Somnetimes in a poem or song it's possible to be completely oblivious to the fact that there are rhymes at all. I'd been reading Yeats' Easter 1916 for years before ine day I noticed it actually rhymed.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:10 PM

"How do you all feel about perfect rhymes? ...
Also how do you feel about the use of emphasis on the wrong "syl-ah-ble"
such as rhyming "see" with "ener-gy"? "

This echoes some of the Craft that I alluded to earlier. Rhyme, prosody, rhythm, pitch interval & progression... all the myriad details that can be examined when dissecting a song. There are Rules of what is Good (such as perfect rhymes, words flowing as normal speach). I think it's safe to say that any "rules" of the craft of songwriting can (should?) be broken on occasion for the sake of Art.

It seems that many of us with "modern" sensibilities accept (highly!) imperfect rhymes with nary a thought.

Loose rhythm, varying from verse to verse or even line to line, is also generally not a reason to disparage a song as long as it doesn't cross some undefined threshhold of cumbersomeness.

Stumbling prosody is less often forgiven, especially in ballads - we prefer our storytellers to sound like they are talking. But even this "sin" can be forgiven if the rest of the song is really good - especially if it's not intended to be taken "seriously". I refer you to the works of Tom Lehrer for examples (I happen to think his stuff is good - although others may not agree! [grin])

Here's another question... is it still a "good" song if the pitch range is beyond the capacity of MOST singers?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: hilda fish
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:00 PM

Ah, here we are going somewhere else. Does art need an audience? Is that it's intention? Does a song need an audience and is that it's intention? Or is the primary relationship between the creator and the art/song and THEN the next stage of the art/song is the life that it lives in the world? Do we create first of all, to please something inside ourselves, and secondly, engage in a response with the world? And can we then control that response? Or are we all getting too academic here?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:15 PM

"What is art?" is as slippery as "What is folk music?"

But for a paper in college I defined art this way:

Art is an arrangement, in any medium, intended to create an emotional response."

I went on to say that whether it's art and whether it's good art and whether it's valuable to the art consumer are three different questions.

Say a "serious" composer composes an orchestral work intended to commmunicate a horror about war. The title is something noncommittal, like "1945".   

He's a well respected composer, and the piece is performed by the local symphony orchestra publicly. There's a standing ovation!   

Clearly he's tried to communicate emotionally so it's art, and it causes an emotional reaction that is of value to the "consumers".   BUT!

As he stands in the lobby a little old lady comes up to him and gushes, "Oh, Mr. Composer, that was so wonderful! I could just feel that I was right there at that garden party!"   (I'm assuming for this purpose that she is representative of the average listener.)

It's art (because of its intent to communicate), it's of value to listeners, but it's a FAILURE in achieving its intent! It's art, it's of value, but it's not "good art".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:01 PM

squeezeldy, I think your comments relate to the thread when you ask,
" What is the ineffable atmosphere that causes the same song to be the high point of some performances and the kiss of death at others? Is this a separate thread?"

I admire all kinds of songs and find some work for some audiences and not at all for others. It's important to psych the audience out before presentation.
Sometimes that evaluation can be wrong. Setting up the song with explanations or presenting them in context with other songs with similar themes seems to help communication.



One of the things I look for is that a song doesn't have to have too many footnotes to explain it. But with folk music, it invariably seems to be needed.
This is one reason Mudcat is so very important. The background on the song is sometimes as significant as the song itself particularly with folk music. On Mudcat we can get this and this makes it an excellent resource.

"Over the Rainbow" is an song with a fetching melody which Pete Seeger tells us was almost buried by Harold Arlen's fast tempo. When Yip Harburg complained about it and wanted it tossed out, they called Ira Gershwin to mediate. He said that it was a good tune but it was being played too fast. Slow it down.

But "Over the Rainbow" isn't everyone's cup of tea, apparently. It's context in the Wizard of Oz certainly helped it gain popularity.

Why is it that some of you don't relate to "Over the Rainbow"?


How many songs are attached to the context of:
1. A performer's personality
2. A character in a musical or play
3. Its relevance in a topical sense
4. Production value (as in a dance recording)
5. Its value as an index into a culture (folk)
6. The amount of variants that it has (folk)
7. Its ability to re-create new meanings for future generations

I was told that a good song should have a good story. But there are some songs that seem to be general and yet appealing. How specific do you have to be?

How do you all feel about perfect rhymes? I see rhymes that have the same sounds but end with different consonants such as "time" and "line". Many folk songs use these "false rhymes". Some use "identities" such as "aisle" and "isle".

Also how do you feel about the use of emphasis on the wrong "syl-ah-ble"
such as rhyming "see" with "ener-gy"?

Frank

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

If "Over the Rainbow" doesn't strike you as a great song, that is fine, but I won't ever ask you to help me put together a set list--

Subject: Over the rainbow
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:24 AM

Context ought to matter, but apparently it doesn't. I heard Over the rainbow years before I saw the movie, and always related it to life in a "smoky town with its murky cowl" (Walsall!), like Wouldn't it be lovely (My Fair Lady). It was probably the line "away above the chimney tops" that did it ... there weren't any chimney tops where Dorothy lived! I can well believe that someone would be desperate to get away from life on an isolated farm in the middle of Nowhere, Kansas, where each day is just like thelast and the only change of routine is a tornado that might destroy everything you have and maim or kill you, but OTR is NOT the song! And yet it lives on ...

Sorry -- back to the thread now!
Steve

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:06 AM

"Too much impacts critical analysis to allow us to say, "This IS art!" or "This IS good!" "
Indeed. I find that sort of assertion troubling too. But I do find it interesting when people try to show me why they think or feel a certain way - if they can. I recently had some very illuminating responses from khandu and Clinton Hammond on why they liked a certain song so much. Maybe I am trying to be a little too intrusive into other peoples' minds!

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:51 AM

True, alanabit, but that's really all I have to say about it. No offense intended. I would willingly 'disect' a song--lyrics and music--to address something specific. But not just to participate in an academic exercise. You write songs. So do I. We know that the parameters of good depend on mood, timing, etc. Good songs can become so-so songs just by being presented at the wrong time in a set or concert performance. Showing "Sunflowers" to drunk people who are waiting in line to pee will likely not get a response the painting deserves. As stories require to greater or lesser degrees plot, setting, character and theme, so too do the other products of artistic effort and accomplishment. Too much impacts critical analysis to allow us to say, "This IS art!" or "This IS good!" Basically, I seldom argue the merits of what I do or don't like. Call it selfishness or call it age: it's good enough for me that I like a song without having my like of it agreed to by others.

BM

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:25 AM

Yes and no Bruce. For the sake of a shorter thread title the "What is a good song and why?" is quite adequate. I think what we tend to talk about here is trying to identify the characteristics which we think our favourites have in common. I believe you are an English teacher, so you no doubt are used to trying to get students to say or write a little more precisely. "I really like it" is an honest answer, but it falls short of being a well thought out critical response. I like the seven songs which I know of your list, but if that is all I can add to a conversation, it is going to be a pretty dull discussion!

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:59 AM

I could name a hundred songs off-hand that I love for one reason or another. For that reason alone I think they are good songs. Why do I think they are good songs? Because I love them.

I know the reasoning is circular. No one has yet established a universal criteria for good. We cannot assume that because a song sells lots it's necessarily good. Or because it sells little it's necessarily bad.

Some of what are to me great songs, and may receive derision from other people who have different taste or likes/dislikes in music:

Boys of Summer
Surfin' Safari
Maggie
Roddy McCorley
Hard Rain's a Gonna Fall
Stuck Inside of Mobile
Fool Like Me
Summer of '69
Amazing Grace (by the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards)

I doubt more than two or three people anywhere would agree with that partial list. I like 'em because I think they're good, and I think they're good because I like 'em.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: hilda fish
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:41 AM

"I have heard it said that "Art" is anything that invokes a response by the person observing it, is it the same kind of thing with music?" Just a response first of all to this quote. Art is a one off, unique object, subject, etc. produced through the creativity of author/authors expressing ????? who knows? A response is something quite separate and it is inevitable there is response to art (I can't quite put the capitol there).   It appears that we are talking about two things 1. the production of a song as a unique and individual expression by a person/persons and, 2. the response to the song.   Is that where the judgement lies?   "Ya like it" to quote someone else here, is probably as good as it gets???

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:20 AM

Ya like it.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:15 AM

Good can mean a lot of different things--good to warm up a cold crowd, good to finish a show, good to jam with the band, good to get change on a street corner, good to get the audience dancing, singing or thinking--good song to get the union members to feel like they really have a common goal, good to get a bunch of idealistic kids to face the state troopers without being afraid--every one has a different answer--

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:04 PM

Hi, Frank,

Primarily, it must tell a good story, and have a tune that enhances, but never gets in the way of, that tale being told. ----- Next, it should have have chord changes that enhance the emotions within the song -- and between the lines.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Thorflyn
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:58 PM

2 things.. I have always preferred "Rainbow Connection" to "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"

and...   a question of sorts...   I have heard it said that "Art" is anything that invokes a response by the person ovserving it, is it the same kind of thing with music?

Thorflyn

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM

The real test of songs like Dylan's is whether they survive and are sung long after those who were hit in the face with them at an impressionable age & time are long dead.

I would judge several of them as very intense and meaningful...and even important, but I am not prepared to grant them 'great' status because of the tunes. Time will tell, I guess....and it all just a game of pushing one's personal notion of 'great'.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:06 PM

Speaking of mind-pictures in a song, I immediately think of
Stan Rodgers singing:

See the field behind the plow
Turn to straight, dark rows...."

That's very visual, to me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:53 PM

Speaking of pictures in song, I immediately think of Stan Rodgers's See the Field Behind the Plough, in the beginning lines:

See the field behind the plough
Turn to straight, dark rows..."

That flashes a real picture in my mind.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:41 PM

One creates pictures in the mind by not telling everything.

I'm totally with Wolfgang on that. It's the same with oral storytelling - I remember Dan Keding, I think it was, saying how important it was to avoid tying down the details, so thatbteh listener provides their own.

"There was a man..." is the way a story teller introduces the protagonist, rather than "John Brown, a tall man in a shabby suit with a shock of dark hair..."

And I even lke ambiguty about what actually happens in a song, so you have to make up a story to fit the pictures. That's what Dylan is the master of.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:12 PM

by 'great', I assume we are talking about A to A+ rather than just a B...

to me, whether it is humorous or serious, that means a combination of tune and lyrics...plus subject mattter that captures your attention.

lyrics get an "A" if they are well-crafted--no awkward phrases or careless rhymes just to get 'done'.

"Lorena" is well-crafted, has subject matter that is timeless, and has a tune that is haunting and still singable. So does "Jock O' Hazeldean" and "The Vatican Rag"...of course, not all 'great' songs are to everyone's taste, so that last one will never make an all-time list.

Some songs just miss by a hair-- "The Night Visiting Song" is very good, but the melody is a 'bit' boring, and there are a couple of lame lines.

now, for the entire 43 chapter essay, I'll have to go off and write for a few years.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,GUEST Val
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:28 PM

As has been implied in a couple of previous posts, the quality of a performance has a lot to do with how a song is received by a particular audience. I suspect that could/should be a whole 'nother thread?

But what makes a SONG great? Doesn't that depend on how you define "Greatness"? Is a great song one that is memorable to the audience leaving the hall, or one that is still performed generations after it was written? Or both? Neither?

Beauty (or "goodness", for this thread) in Art is in the ear of the beholder, and thus eschews definition.

In addition to the Art of songwriting, however, there is also a Craft which can be taught and learned. When a songwriter makes skillful use of the tools of the trade, the result will be "good" - needing only the spark of Beauty to make it Great.

Maybe someone more skilled than I could discuss the various Tools of the Craft and how they can be used to create Good music?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:42 PM

Simple and magic cannot be explained.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: GUEST,Linda Goodman at work
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM

Coming home last night from a parent/teachers' conference I got somewhat lost and heard the most fascinating thing on the radio. It was a description of why the Harold Arlen song "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is so great. I never much liked the song, and still don't, but the radio program was extrordinarily interesting and informative on what makes a song "tick".

The radio program was "Performance Today", Feb 15, 2005. The program can be heard by going to the Performance Today website. This is a National Public Radio (NPR) program. I think the link to the actual program is http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=4&prgDate=02-15-2005
Of course I heard this program on the {THREAD CREEP!!!} Classical music station in our Nation's Capital --WETA. The nightly program of Performance Today will be gone from DC area's airways by the end of this month (sigh).

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM

I think 'goodness' is subjective, but I would suggest what makes a song good is connectivity. If you can connect to a song it will be great, if you can't it will only be so-so, even if performed well.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: breezy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:02 PM

The ability/talent to perform well thru either recitation or singing.

To be well rehearsed and to know the piece inside out.

To perform it at the correct moment as a total contrast to that which precedes.

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: squeezeldy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:54 PM

The performer must connect emotionally with the song--be it humor, anger, irony, or sorrow, or whatever. Then it is up to the performer to be the song's instrument. The performer must let the song "sing" and not allow his/her own emoting to get in the way. It is a fine line to follow--to allow the mood of the song to shine without giving in to histrionics. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't, but when it's exactly right--whew-ee!!!

Here's a related question--we all have our own ideas of some great songs. What is the ineffable atmosphere that causes the same song to be the high point of some performances and the kiss of death at others? Is this a separate thread?

Subject: RE: What is a good song and why?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

One creates pictures in the mind by not telling everything. Leave a couple of things unsaid. I always loved Eric Bogle's Willie McBride, but later stopped it before the last verse. This verse only tells what is already in my mind at that time.

Wolfgang