BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter

Subject: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

That should end "reporter".

I'm surprised my search does not turn up a reference to this recent incident. KL (the London mayor) was hassled leaving a party, by a news reporter. As far as I know, at first he had no idea the reporter was Jewish.

KL has been hounded by reporters from the Mail/Standard group for years. The Mail/Standard group is very right wing (by UK standards). They are out to get him by fair means or foul - because he is fairly left wing. I don't know if he knew at first that this reporter was from the Mail/Standard group.

I'm not sure if I have the remarks of KL in the correct order, but I think the exchange went roughly: -

[unspecific hostile question]

[remark by KL that that was like a Nazi war criminal]

[reporter says (roughly) "Actually I'm Jewish and I find that offensive"]

[KL says (roughly) "Well your conduct is still like a concentration camp guard, doing anything to follow orders"]

Upshot - the British Board of Deputies (a Jewish religious body) has reported KL to the Standards Commission for alleged anti-semitism. This body has power to oblige KL to resign as the mayor of London.

By all means post the exact words if you have them, but it looks a bit OTT (over-the-top) as a reaction to the exchange, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:27 PM

The reporter, Oliver Finegold, revealed he was Jewish, and Mr Livingstone replied: "Ah, well you might be, but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard. You are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?" (Guardian)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM

I   think the issue is not so much his comment, but the fact the next day he refused to apologise, or even acknowledge that the comment may be   offensive. Which would make the reason for resigning stupidity, rather than anti-semitism...

BTW, has anyone questioned what the party was for? To celebrate 20 years of Chris Smith (Labour, ex minister), coming out as the first openly gay MP. Is this just a party for the friends of the mayor, at taxpayers expense? Or a real celebration of diversity and tolerance, at taxpayers expense?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

Sounds like the reporter was being a wee bit sensitive and precious for a newshound. Why should that person be so offended if they have been pushy/hostile. From what I can see this is an occupational hazard - they've got a reputatin for heavy handedness when they're after a story.

Since Livingstone apparently didn't mention race or creed why should the reporter think that he was being anti-semitic? I haven't much time for Livingstone, but have even less for those who think that they can behave as they wish but should be treated with kid gloves by those they 'attack'.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:34 PM

What's to apologise for?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM

Time to say sorry (Guardian leader)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM

I find it hard to see how accusing someone of being like a Nazi would be anti-semetic. There isn't enough context here for me to really know what's going on, but he isn't in any way approving of anything the Nazi's did, in fact he is condemning both the reporter and the Nazis. And it doesn't seem like the religion of the reporter makes any difference to the interpretation of the remark. As for apologizing, it usually good practice to apologize when someone is upset regardless of the actual circumstances, so there he is being stupid. It rarely hurts to apologize, and usually makes people happier.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM

Now that I read the article I slightly change my position. He definately should apologize. While his remark still doesn't look anti-semitic, it definately was offensive

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

It might be offensive, it was meant to be, but I can't actually see how it is in any way anti-semitic.

The impression get is that Ken must have been a little bit sloshed - I think sober he could have phrased it better.

I imagine his reluctance to apologise is because he feels it would be lying to say he hadn't meant to offend the reporter, because he did. That's the kind of lying apology that is pretty standard among politicians, and I can see why he is reluctant to make one of those. I understand he has said that he didn't set out to offend members of the Jewish community, and that he regrets it if such people really were offended.

The whole row feels synthetic to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

Ken livingstone is decency personified. Only a scoundrel of the lowest type would make such a slur.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

McGraths' right. I saw Blair on TV at lunchtime, he said he thought Ken should just "apologise and move on".

Typical phrase for Bliar, who doesn't know the meaning of the word principle.
Blair is a stranger to truth, he just doesn't understand the concept, how can we expect him to understand what motivates Ken Livingstone ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:30 PM

F#ck off would have been more apt, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:38 PM

what a shame we are in a world where you daren't say anything anymore.

One prat can cost the livelyhood of another.

Its like treading on eggs to pamper to the prats of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:50 PM

Personally ,I hope Ken sticks to his guns and makes an issue of this.

If they try to force him to resign ,surely the people of London will protest "en masse".

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

Ah, you're alive Les - did you get my e-mail?

Back to the subject in hand - Villan and Ake are right, and either the reporter is being deliberately thin-skinned because his employer opposes KL (very likely), or he really is thin-skinned (in which case he needs to grow a thicker one). And the idea of a 'sensitive' reporter really does beggar belief - they have to have a hide like a buffalo simply to do the job! LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

In the nineteen thirties the Daily Mail came out strongly in favour of fascism ;as far as I know it has never apologised .Throughout his political career Ken Livingstone has been a consistent and outspoken opponent of fascism.He is right not to apologize to the reporter who should be ashamed of himself for working for a paper like the Mail. The Nazis put the Finegold's co- religionists in concentration camps but before that they put the leftists in - the Ken Livingstone's of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

Since it seems to be accepted that the remark was not racist, what is there to apologise for, and what is the agenda of the British Board of Deputies?

It seems to me that KL is wholly right to refuse to be bullied by a cynical attempt to play the race card.

I am reminded of a friend of mine from university many years ago, a chap called Ajit Deshpande. He used to satirise the race relations industry even then: if a bus was full, he would say "I'll report you to the race relations board". When he missed a double on the dartsboard - "I'll report you to the race relations board", when a bar-billiards ball took a peg - "I'll report you to the race relations board".

Why should Finegold devalue the coin of anti-racism by asserting racism in this manifestly spurious way? Why should the Board do likewise? Is it a cynical pay-back for some of KL's defence of Palestinians agains Israel in the past?


How sad it is that some people do the same thing without satirical intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Col K
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM

Would Blair ask Ken L to apologise if the reporter had been of any other religion?
I doubt it.
Blair would not know the truth if it hit him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM

I think part of the idea might be that, when the decision is made to have the 2012 Olympics in Paris (or one of the other short-listed cities) instead of London, Ken Livingstone can be given the blame. That lets off the hook the governments who ground the place down, in all kinds of ways, for the last half of the 20th century - especially for the last 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:31 PM

Any offense taken by either of them in that exhange is purely PR and deserves to be treated with the same contempt & cynicism with which it was conceived.
Politicians and reporters are thicker-skinned than that. Who do they think the're fooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM

Yes, it sounds like just another cynical (or knee-jerk) attempt to spuriously raise the race card when there's no real excuse for it. Has anyone noticed that if a black man or a Jew does things that wouldn't be deemed very nice if done by anyone else...and then someone points it out...that that someone gets accused of being either "racist" or "anti-semitic"?

I wonder what Sammy Davis Junior would have to say about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:17 PM

What a sick bunch of puppies. The only thing offensive - is the Dick's intentional attempt to create dissention by using the word Jewish as troll-bait in his subject line.

Go Back to the Sewers!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM

Just use the words
Nigger Spic or Jews
For liberals who choose
Good Lord its now news

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I imagine if he'd called him a "Folk Nazi" he'd have been in even worse trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

Hello anonymous guest. What are you trying to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:13 PM

Or even a 'Folkin' Nazi' McG! ROFL!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:45 PM

I'm glad I don't live in London.

I hear stories about like this about the anti-semitism there all of the time.

A lot of typical Mudcat comments here as usual. But if it was a gay instead of a Jew, I'm sure there would be a lot of defense of that offended reporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

Martin ...I'm one of you biggest fans, but your
talking PC shite this time.
Kens' a one of,...a politician with principles!!
He would never act in a bigotted or racist manner,dont always agree with him, but he's the real McCoy alright
If he thought either Jews , homosexuals, communists or even christians were being discriminated against, he would fight it with his last breath....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:39 PM

I think the whole situation is hilarious. Ken Livingstone has always been quick to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with him of being a racist. Now it has been turned on him. Serves the sanctimonious prig right. However, his support of the Palestinians does tend to veer towards anti-semitism, but that can also be said of a large chunk of the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:55 PM

So, again, where is the antisemitism in KL's remarks?

It takes a lot for MG to side with the Daily Mail!

Problems, MG?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:56 PM

When the Israelis have gone on the offensive in a manner that is offensive, it is not anti-semitism to remark the observation.
Indeed, it would be (and is too often I fear) back-handed anti-semitism not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:00 PM

Palestinians ARE semites, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

I was wondering...

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

Livingstone is always quick to highlight the plight of the Palestinians, which is fair enough. I agree with him. However, you have to take into account the plight of the jews and how the state of Israel came into existance. These are the most persecuted people in the history of the world. There are two sides in this conflict and it would do the left credit to remember that. The death of a Jew by a bomber is as outrageous as the death of a Palestinian by an Israeli soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

True enough.

There are some other people who have been persecuted completely to the point of extinction. Among them were the Beothuks of Newfoundland, the Mohicans, and most of the Carib peoples in the Caribbean Islands, most of the indigenous people in Argentina, and most of the Hurons. You don't hear about it much, because they do not have monied representatives out there at the present time publicizing their cause for the purpose of political and territorial gain...

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

glad you don't live in London, Martin?

England swings like a pedulum-doo......and don't you forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM

I was in London last year. It's not bad. I ran into some people there who were prejudiced against primates, but that's common. I punched them out. I would gladly go back to London anytime.

Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:36 AM

Livingstone's point, as I take it, was that the reporter should have known better than to collude in the activities of a company that was engaged in a pretty vicious kind of journalism, including a campaign of hate aimed at refugees and immigrants, and gypsies, as well as other minorities

Only a few days before, the Standard's sister paper the Daily Mail had given over its front page to attacking the apology given by Tony Blair to the Guildford Four and the McGuire Seven, falsely imprisoned for years as a result of the actions of agents of the British givernment.

Only yesterday the Daily Mail printed a quite staggeringly racist and vicious cartoon, which could have come straight out of the pages of Der Sturmer. They haven't put it up on their site yet, so you'll have to take my word for it for now.

I cannot see how there was anything whatsoever anti-semitic in telling the reporter that he was in some ways doing something analogous to working for the Nazis. Why did the fact that the reporter declared that he was Jewish be in any way relevant to that, as if somehow that was meant to prove that was above such criticism?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

McGrath: comparing a Jew to a Nazi is the height of insensitivity.As soon as Nazi Ken realised what he had done, he should have said something along the lines of:"I didn't mean any offense, but if I did offend you, then I apologise." He didn't - which is telling. I think that Herr Livingstone, along with a lot of the Left, are prejudiced against the Jews. They quite like the Jews as victims, but when Jews assert themselves, then it is quite a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:56 AM

Here is the cartoon I referred to - thebone with the caption: "Highly contagious? Boy, am I glad I sneaked into Britain before your election," beneath the strapline Tories announce that they will introduce health checks for immigrants before allowing entry.

That gross picture of a hook-nosed alien with oozing sores coudl have come out of some Nazi sheet. Of course then it would have been intended to be a Jew, and now its supposed to be some other semite from the Middle East. That makes it OK? If you are talking about "offensive", I would suggest that that is what "offensive" in this context actually means. (And please, I am not suggesting that this cartoon was a reason for Ken's remarks, since it only appeared yesterrday - but it's an indication of the depths to which those particular papers can sink.)

Of course Ken was intending to offend that journalist, and it would be a lie to say he hadn't meant to offend. He clearly did mean to offend, and felt he had good reason, which were nothing to do with the journalist's Jewishness, and everything to do with teh way he earned his living.

He equally clearly had no intention of offending Jews in general, and h ehas already made that clear. If such people are offended, that is a matter for regret, and if he hasn't said that already I imagine he will do so.

But I would suggest that that cartoon should give them far more reason to feel offended. To make anyone feel offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,mooman at the backdoor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:49 AM

Probably quite ill-advised especially on the tail of the Prince's major faux-pas and probably he should withdraw the statement as it has clearly offended many even if he did not intend it to do so.

What he should definitely not withdraw is the "scumbags" statement concerning the Evening Standard. I would have said worse were I in his shoes.

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM

I think in many cases it's more a case of "a lot of people have taken offence".

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Geraldo
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM

Remember when newsmen used to report the news instead of always trying to be the news?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: mindblaster
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

"his support of the Palestinians does tend to veer towards anti-semitism"

Quote from penguins egg entry on this thread.

Eggo has lost the plot, both jews and palastinians are semetic. Also recognising that the Jewish state is the oppressor of the palestinian people is not anti-semetic. That's akin to saying that supporters of the British during The Falklands conflict were anti-catholic.

The whole thing has been taken out of context. The party that Ken was at, was mainly a gay & lesbian event. The creep reporter was sent to dig dirt. He was present throughout the party and insulted Ken several times swearing at him (can't remember the actual words) He was trying to bait him and persisted for one and a half hours clutching a recording device whilst trying to get ken to insult him. This was all reported in the press originally, but seems to have been conveniently forgotten by the mob PC knee jerk right wing dangerous idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:28 PM

The people who are stirring this appear to be primarily the very ones who normally go on about "political correctness gone mad" in any other context.

I'm sure that if the Daily Mail gets publicly slated for that vile cartoon, (and I hope they will) they'll describe the criticism as "political correctness gone mad", and go on about how critics have no sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:54 PM

I don't see why it is offensive to compare anyone's attitude (whether he/she is Jewish or not) with the attitude of concentration camp guards, if the two attitudes are comparable - which in this case, I believe they are.

Who says that a victim cannot become an oppressor? That is what KL was referring to.

The rest is PC claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:59 PM

Tho Daily Mail has been an opponent of Livingstone`s for years, it wasn`t before time that he lashed into this creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM

The people of London know Ken too well, because he is one of the rare breed who says what he thinks. They also know that he will do his utmost to protect the rights and freedoms of minorities. A cause that has been a constant gripe of the Daily Mail.

Blair has beeen waiting for this moment since he had to do the enforced apology to Ken, when it transpired Ken wasn't the devil's spawn and the majority of voters believed him.

The Daily Mail are in fear of scraping their chins on the floor if they stoop much lower to try and discredit him.

I hope Ken apologises for the confusion his remark caused. But the reporter deserves nothing. He wanted to offend and he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM

"...what is the agenda of the British Board of Deputies?" Richard, they seem to think they have sole rights to terms like "Nazi" and are entitled to exercise control over all use of such terms.

I'm much heartened by the tone of this thread. I feared Ken would be in for a slagging.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:01 PM

Just as we have garbage in other jobs and occupations, so too do we in the news business. Sad, but true.