Why I Hate Folk Music

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 01:12 PM

Thanks Alice, Didn't mean to stay it twice though. By the time I get this computer thing down we'll have brain implants and won't need them anymore. Oh well... Dan

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 11:06 AM

If self righteous means self aware, if it means an ever questioning perception of the world around us then folk music is self righteous. The ballads and stories that have been handed down through countless generations are the fabric of our history. We live our lives in story, some sung some spoken. If that line in that song hit a raw nerve with our critic friend maybe instead of condemning an entire genre of music he should ask the question why it affected him?

If he doesn't like folk music I suggest that anytime he receives a cd or tape in the mail to review he donate it to a local library or school.

Its of great consolation to me that when the critic is dead and dust that song will still be sung and remembered.

Dan

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:48 AM

Well said, Dan.

Subject: RE:
From: Dan Keding
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:34 AM

If self righteous means self aware, if it means an ever questioning perception of the world around us then folk music is self righteous. The ballads and stories that have been handed down through countless generations are the fabric of our history. We live our lives in story, some sung some spoken. If that line in that song hit a raw nerve with our critic friend maybe instead of condemning an entire genre of music he should ask the question why it affected him?

If he doesn't like folk music I suggest that anytime he receives a cd or tape in the mail to review he donate it to a local library or school.

Its of great consolation to me that when the critic is dead and dust that song will still be sung and remembered.

Dan

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 09:17 AM

Murray, so true. A day doesn't go by that I don't regret the way my baby-boom generation threw out the values that kept families together. The counter-culture movement (and I participated) was a social experiment that failed, and we are reaping the bitter harvest now. Songs that promoted and sustained civil rights were great, but there were other attitudes, probably more promoted by rock lyrics than folk lyrics, that promoted the breaking of bonds that nurture children and families. (ok, off my soap-box, now)

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 07:42 AM

I don't think folk music is self-righteous. In fact I find that a meaningless statement. I do, however, think the 60s were. I somethime feel uncomfortable about how right we thought we were and how we considered those who were against us as sub-human. Perhaps the reviewer feels that too. I certainly can see how, with the perspecitve of thirty odd years the "they" might grate a bit.

(On the other hand, I think we were right about Vietnam and Civil Rights.

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:38 PM

Why did it take him that long to figure out what bothered him about "Where Have All The Flowers Gone"? Answer, could he have been so unaware of himself for that long. It finally dawned on him "as light dawns on Marblehead". I believe Pete was taking a stance & making a point. Did Greil take an opposing position or just think that the whole world felt like himself. I guess that he himself must be rock right & the generations of singers that sing folk music must fading voices of ghosts that are just blowing in the wind. What an overgeneralization. Barry

Subject: RE:
From: northfolk
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:17 PM

Let's put this into perpective. A "writer", promoting music by simplistic formulation, designed to be sold consumed and forgotten, is knocking our music, that has weathered the challenge of time, by being passed from generation to generation. I wish we all had the resources and the media at our disposal...we don't. There is a purity in that too, that matches this music, which will be sung and loved, after the sanctimonious Greil Marcus has gone to his ultimate good...poisoning worms.

Subject: RE:
From: petter
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:24 PM

whats your name

Subject: RE:
From: petter
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:16 PM

up yours

Subject: RE:
From: Sheye
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 05:01 PM

Hey, Peter!

Le monsieur does have the right to define and condemn folk music as it fits in his ummm, comfort zone.

And we, in answering to the public comment of a learned music critic, can only explain how we (define? interpret? perceive?) folk music and why we love it.

warmest, Sheye

Subject: RE:
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 04:07 PM

Thanks everyone for your swift and thoughtful articulations, and especially Jerry for a draft(!) -- my current temptation is just to send him the URL for this site, but I will be drafting a reply. I will let you know how it turns out. Being a newspaper interview it has to be responded to fairly quickly. It occurred to me reading this that there are one or two recent self-righteous Dylan songs that I could weave into the mix. I guess I am more vinegary than Jerry's honey-tongued eloquence.

(And I don't think Marcus is Canadian).

Thanks again.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 02:17 PM

ooops... maybe Greil Marcus isn't Canadian, although the article you quote is from the Canadian Globe and Mail.

alice

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 02:14 PM

Peter... I have more time to respond now. Trying to fix a crashing computer, and just didn't get a chance to write much before.

As Jerry pointed out, diplomacy is more constructive than confrontation. I do think the critic is making a statement that shows ignorance of all folk music, because he is defining folk music as being like the protest song in this example. I am reminded of our thread on song topics we hate... whining lyrics, narcissim, these are some of the things that were listed as un-favorite. I think those elements may be what some people, perhaps like this critic, associate with folk music.

Although I think he shows ignorance of folk music, I would not write to him lecturing him, and accusing him of being ignorant. As Jerry pointed out, the critic should be exposed to the larger history of folk music from around the world, and that a very small portion of what many Americans call 'folk' were the protest songs of the American 60's.

I find it interesting that he is a Canadian. What does he know about the great legacy of Canadian folk music, I wonder?

gotta go... wish I had time to write more...

alice in montana

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:57 PM

Jerry,

Well said. Well reasoned and thoughtful, instead of defensive as mine was. You have hit it exactly.

All the best,

Mick.

Subject: RE:
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:53 PM

Even in letters to the editor, I think you catch more flies with honey than vinegar (to coin a cliche), so I wouldn't use the word "ignorant". After reading all the insightful comments above, my response would be,

I'd like to answer Greil Marcus's thoughts on Pete Seeger's "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" He uses the famous line "When will they ever learn?" to claim that folk music is self-righteous and that's why he hates it. However, he's not talking about folk music. He's talking about certain protest songs, which you might or might not classify as folk. Taken as a whole, the world's folk music is dazzlingly varied, historically rich, and sometimes even sophisticated. It's the roots of rock and an inspiration to many of the best rock musicians.

Also, in Pete Seeger's live shows he and the crowd sing, "When will we ever learn?" on the last chorus. (This is according to a friend on the amazing Mudcat discussion forum at .) I'm sure Marcus will be glad to know that he and Seeger agree about self-righteousness.

Finally, I admit that some protest songs are self-righteous and whiny. (I wouldn't describe "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" that way.) But anyone who uses them as a reason to "hate folk music" is going to miss a lot of beautiful songs. I hope that Marcus finds one that's witty and ironically self-deprecating [*], and that he says, "That's why I love folk music."

[*] This would be a good spot for an example. "Carrickfergus"? A blues song?

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:25 PM

Martin,

Thanks for the info on Frank. Tell the eejit (if you see him) that we miss him in these parts, and would like him to check in from time to time. :-))

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE:
From: Earl
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:33 AM

I think the problem is that people who are not direcly involved, one way or another, with folk music are ignorant of the history, humor, depth, emotion, passion, and honest social concern discussed here daily. It is much easier to do what Marcus did use the cartoonish stereotype of folksingers as people who lamely strum guitars and sing whiney protest songs. "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" is certainly not in that category.

Subject: RE:
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:27 AM

These are much better responses than mine. I was going to pontificate about how the song is really more about weariness than protest -- the sort of endless cycle of humanity (they are we). I have always assumed that it is popular because it has that universal quality, rather than a "stop war now" flavour. I have never thought of it as an anti-war song (which does sound sort of weird when I actually say it). But everyone else here is making much more hard sense than my vapourings. I also missed Spancil Hill. Where is that search button!

Anyone else?

Yours, Peter

Subject: RE:
From: Mike T.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:19 AM

Those who acclaim themselves as "critic", are only expressing their own opinion, and just like (you know what) everybody has one. They fill the void of insecurity in themselves by being critical of others. It has a medical name (which I can't think of at the moment) and We all have it to some degree. In cases like Marcus it's probably terminal.
I agree with Alice, 'Profoundly Ignorant' ........

Something as nit-picky as "they" vs "we" In a song as great as that one? Huuummm!
Scuse-a-me! Being self-righteous myself, I just get a little up-tight when I have to deal with that type.

Mike T.

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:14 AM

I agree with Bert, which is why I think the critic is ignorant to condemn all folk music based on that song.

alice

Subject: RE:
From: Bert
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:04 AM

It was written as a political protest song. The whole point was that SOME people (warmongers for example) wouldn't like it. The fact that it is a great song and people keep singing it might (in some peoples opinion) make it a folk song by now. It certainly wasn't folk when it was new.

Bert.

Subject: RE:
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:00 AM

Mick

Frank is still around - just seems to have other things to do at the moment!

Regards

Subject: RE:
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 10:40 AM

I don't know if it wrong to be self righteous, at least to a degree. It is usually a reflection of having values. It is intolerant self righteousness that I can't take. And what does Greil prefer to folk music? Mindless pop? Escapist crap? If enjoying music that attempts to relate the stories of people, or cause people to examine their perceptions, or give a little historical perspective, or make one laugh out loud at some silly thought, or inspire one to attempt to make a difference in the small part of the planet in which they live; if this is self righteous, then count me in. I stand convicted. And his comment about Pete Seeger shows that he is, at least, guilty of not doing his homework, and perhaps a shallow windbag.

How's that, Peter.

And Alice, was the "Spancil Hill" thread not one of the best ever? I still want to know what happened to Frank McGrath. As I have said before, he gives us an amazing piece of musical history and disappears. You don't suppose he was just a bit of programming that got lost in the great crash, do you? :-))

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE:
From: Dani
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:52 AM

Oops - foot in mouth. We're talking about Greil, not Bob. I should have known better. Sorry! That's what I get for being self-righteous myself!

Subject: RE:
From: Dani
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:50 AM

Someone should invite Bob to hear Pete Seeger sing. When he leads a crowd in this song, the final verse is always , "When will WE ever learn." Not many would accuse Pete of self-righteousness. That usually applies to a person who is afraid of getting their OWN hands dirty. Pete's are pretty dirty!

Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:38 AM

No, Peter, all I could think is he is 'profoundly ignorant' of folk music, which still sounds self-righteous. Maybe we need to revive the thread, 'what is folk music' and email him a copy. ... or send him a copy of the thread, 'Where Is Spancil Hill' and he may see the beauty and depth behind music made by just plain 'folk'.
alice in montana

Subject:
From:
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 09:06 AM

A friend sent me a piece from the Canadian Globe and Mail with an interview of Greil Marcus (the rock music critic for Rolling Stone, who has written about Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes, etc.). In the interview he says that what gets him started is a phrase or a tone or a little something in a song. Recently he was listening to "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" -- a song that has always bothered him -- and he says that it finally hit him that the phrase, "When will they ever learn" epitomised the self-righteousness of folk music (he thinks the phrase should be "When will we ever learn"). And that, he says, is "Why I hate folk music". I thought this was profoundly stupid, and thought I would compose a reply and send it off. Anybody have any thoughts that might improve a non-self-righteous response?

Yours, Peter T.