BS: Why do we need poverty?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:37 PM

Yeah, most 14-year olds have outgrown toys, unless you consider Nintendo/Gameboy as toys.

The young men of Columbine and Paducah weren't living in squalor. They were more like the kid who wrote the fantasy of more mass murder in high school that Clinton Hammond sees as harmless in another active thread here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: hesperis
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:36 PM

I think it'd be fairly easy to persuade a 14-year-old to pick up a gun instead of a toy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:08 PM

Rich imagination, that's fir sure...

Well written...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: GUEST,Heidebundt Pikelmaas, Arms Dealer
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

You are naive, John. Without poor people, where do you think I would get workers who are willing to put up with slave-wages and atrocious working conditions? How do you think I would be able to stimulate violence, civil wars, and insurrection in impoverished countries, if there were not many people suffering from a lack of food, habitation, medicine, and the other things that give people peace of mind? How could the ragtag armies that purchase my weapons convince 14-year-olds to abandon their toys and pick up an AK-47, were they not living in despair and squalor? How could I even be seen AS fantastically rich...if others were not wretchedly poor?

And I am rich, John. Very rich. No thanks to you. Many rich people are like you, John. They're naive. Some are even social idealists, who wish to improve the lot of humanity. I regard such bleeding hearts as rather pathetic specimens, since they fail to realize that eliminating poverty would be going against the basic needs of a competitive economy and would be disloyal to their own class in the end.

I've never suffered from that kind of fairy-tale thinking. If you want a teeter totter to move, you've got to increase the weight at one end. It's as simple as that. Poverty feeds wealth, and wealth confers exclusivity and authority upon those who most naturally merit it...people like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:15 PM

but rotate carefully. I hate it when it sloshes over the rim.

I can't imagine wealthy who actually want there to be poor people. At worst I imagine many neither care nor think about it, but "want?" wow. I hardly know what to say. That's beyond cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:38 AM

So am i...but i would be. I always end up cleaning the toilet...sigh....don't even get paid...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM

I'm in favour of a society where everyone cleans the toilets...but on a rotating basis. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:57 AM

Well, gol danged... Drug testing and other consitions for those recievung assistence from the governemnt? Great idea. Lets start with Dick Cheney... No, make it Goergie Porge hisself after his next pretzel (wink, wink) incident...

B:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:38 AM

And everybody wants somebody to clean their toilets...and clean them for as little as possible. Anyone read The Grapes of Wrath?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:29 AM

There are many reasons, I expect. Depends on your psychology, and your position in life.

As someone once said, "everybody wants somebody that they can look down on"! (was it John Prine?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

if you go back a few generations, most cultures had a culture that was pretty much what I was describing. Don't keep beating that hopeless drum. Things can change, and they can change quickly, for the better or for the worse. Don't assume that because people are caught up in a cycle of poverty, especially mixed with drugs and/or alcohol, that that is what they want or what they hope for for their children. Believing that people can't change their circumstances and their behavior is helping to condemn them. I truly think that at the same time that people insist that others have an economic stake in keeping people poor, so they can work as wage slaves etc., that other people have a psychological stake in keeping people poor. I truly believe this. The poor, not the working poor, for whom I would support all sorts of health benefits, housing supplements, etc., but the poor tied in with abuse, drugs, etc..(and I would support them as well, but impose a bunch of conditions, drug tests, inspections etc)..serve a purpose for people, and I think it is to act as surrogates for what they themselves would like to do but don't dare. Think about this. People want other people to be poor for some reason. Why???????? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:45 PM

Since the so-called "Welfare Reform" legislation during Clinton's term, Carol, you are absolutely correct and it does frepresent the lion's share of folks who are poor in America. It's lots of women, fir the most part, who get up at 4:00 in the morning, catch a bus to one job and another bus to a second job... Meanwhile, relatives try to look after the kids while this por woman recieves little or no help from the government...

Meanwhile, back at the Department of Defense, seems somehow $5B got lost... Ahhhh, who cares...

Meanwhile, bacl to our mom who gets on the bus at 4:00 in the morning, according to Boss Hog, $5.15 a hour is plenty...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:18 PM

All of this talk about welfare and poverty seriously ignores the problems of the working poor who, in the US at least, can't afford any health care or dental care, and who often work more than one job in order to just barely survive, which then puts their children at high risk for delinquency and drug use due to lack of parental supervision. And this can happen just as easily in two parent households as in one parent households.

I don't have figures on this right now, but my guess is that the majority of poor people in the US are working poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:05 PM

mary, mary, mary...

Let me remind you that you are speaking from your own culture (mindset, if you will) and where it's easy for you so see the better choices, you may need to keep in mind that most poor women have a completely differnt culture (mindset)... If the object is bring some wisdom to the table then its gonna be like making love to a gorilla. Sure, it can be done, but it's gonna be on the gorillas terms... It's like that with folks who do no possess the life's experinces that you or I might have and, one thing is fir certain, these folks sho nuff don't like to be preached to... Does this make them right? Well, not really. But if we are to make progress with folks from a differnt culture than, like the gorilla, we're gonna have to get on the down elevator 'cause these folks don't do up elevators.

Think of it as a folk musican and a classicly trained soprano. How can they sing together? Can the folkie just will him or herself to the classiclly trained level? Well, no. It's got to got the other way.

Bottom line, all the preaching in world ain't gonna do nuthin' until first of all the US decides it wants to do something and second, is willing to go to the source of the problem rather than insist it comes to us...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:42 PM

Well, young teens having unprotected sex can be stopped another way. If there are interesting things to do then people are less likely to ONLY party and have sex. There wasn't much else to do around where I went to high school... I avoided doing that stuff only because I knew I was poor already and knew I wouldn't have a chance at anything if I got pregnant before I was ok. I also had things to do that weren't sex or drinking that I was really interested in doing, and was sick all the time so never went to parties after school anyway. *shrug*

Young teens might need some chaperoning, but older teens need to self-chaperone, and that's the hard part.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:04 PM

Yeah, LH, and I'd give evryone here in the discussion better grades that the folks in Washington... Them folks don't seem to possess the ability to carry on a discussion on anything of real import...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:23 AM

Well, just about every opinion offered here in this discussion has been valid...from a certain angle or point of view.

Ain't that just typical?

The thing is, people are usually emotionally wedded to their own particular angle only...and they see reality through that prism.

Wouldn't it be funny if you were ALL right? ...but just not exclusively or completely right?

"You're right from your side, I'm right from mine, we're just one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind..." - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 12:39 AM

There was this big huge study a few years back that was quoted all over the place. The cycle can be broken and it is very important to believe it can be broken and to tell the young people especially that it can be broken. People had to do two things, and they were pretty much OK at a fairly young age.
1) They had to not have children out of wedlock.
2) They had to stay off drugs and I presume excessive alcohol.
3. Three things..they had to finish high school.

That was it. Now, I would sure as heck try to channel them (OH DEAR I USED THE CH WORD, AN EDUCATOR'S BIG NO NO)into vocational and occupational learning in high school, with the expectation that they would go on for further technical training or college after high school. This would be for every student. The ones with the Harvard trust funds set up at birth and everyone. Everyone.

Young women have been sold a bill of goods that they can have babies when they want, with whom they want etc. It is a real good path to poverty, or a way to remain in it if you were born into it. Without getting into religion, morality, culture, mores etc., pure economics should drive this behavior. It guarantees two parents for the baby, assuming each chose reasonably well.   It assures some sort of delay in the reproductive process. It insures a whole other set of aunts, uncles, grandparents etc.

If you don't like poverty, take your pick. Start with children born out of wedlock, particularly to very young teens (and that has to be prevented one way, and that is by chaperoning them and not allowing them opportunities) or drug use. They sort of go together it seems, but not always. If you like poverty, keep saying that everyone has all these rights. That is where those particular rights lead. And keep saying the cycle can't be broken. Of course it can be broken. how did your grandparents break it? How did the immigrants from Vietnam, Etheopia, Guatamala break it? By being married, having a family structure where the elders took care of the youngsters while parents worked backbreaking jobs, by having teens contribute to the family earnings, by overcrowding in housing but eventually buying houses, by cooking at home, etc. etc. By encouraging their children to do well in school. By eating beans instead of prepackaged meals. By boiling diapers on the stove instead of buying disposable diapers. By fixing old cars up....a million ways. Find such a family and do what they do. And don't bother saying I don't want to help them or I blame the victim. I am quite happy to pay whatever taxes it takes me to solve these problems. mg

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:40 PM

When I graduated from university, I owed the govt. $50,000.00 in student loans. Had I been on welfare with my two children for the same period of time, the govt. would have given me over $50,000.00.

You figure it out. If you ask me, I was punished for pulling my life together and was, in fact, legislated into poverty.

There is no govt. incentive to 'better your lot in life'. Thats the biggest problem of all.

BTW - I totally disagree with those of you who say that poverty is a result of poor choices, lifestyle or behaviour. Not all people who live in poverty fit those categories. In fact, most of the women I know would do anything to escape the cycle but, like I said, it is almost impossible to better your life. If you attempt to do that, you are punished and put in your place.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:27 PM

That's what I was sayin' back awhile ago about culture (i.e. steate of mind)....

Ya' can't expect folks who don't have the *real* education, you know, like the stuff that makes you understand what it takes it to make it ('er half make it) tp be able to make decisions as oif they understood what was going down...

Like askin' a snake to fly...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM

Some people inherit poverty and poor choices. That makes it much harder to lift themselves out of poverty, since they weren't the ones who made the poor choices that got them there in the first place.

Surely education about choices plus an actual opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty would help. I knew a lot of people who made poor choices because they didn't think they had a choice. (I mean, just look at "Trailer Park Boys"... I actually KNOW people who think like that... do something illegal in order to have enough money to go clean... Yikes. Ok, some of those people may just be dumb... but why is that, also? We're back to poor prenatal and childhood nutrition, again.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: goodbar
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 09:38 PM

because it's fair. god bless america.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM

John, John, John...

Okay, I mighta get a tad worked up when arguing a position but I try my best not to let it become personal... Not that I achieve this goal 100% but I try... I don't think of you as a non-caring person at all. Heck, for a knothead (jus' funnin') ay least you are willing to keep a discussion going unlike a few folks here who continue repeating their bumper sticker length positions...

And for the 3rd time in one day we agree that there will most likely always be some folks who are impoverished... But not some 40,000,000 in the richest country in the world! That is unacceptable. There can't be that many folks who would chooze to be cold, sick and/or hungry...

Lotta folks would at least attempt to pull themselves out of poverty if there were just some boot-straps...


But, again, John, I don't consider you to be non-caring. Only you and the Big Guy knows what is in you heart...

All I can do is throw stuff out there for folks to think about. Folks like me have no other forum. The other side has the microphone and most of the media in its pocket so we do what we can do.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Public assistance as you say is not going to lift people out of poverty, although it could give them food and shelter while people lift themselves out, helped by rising tides if there are such at that time. Education, by which I mostly mean occupational education of the sort found at trade schools and community colleges, will, and has, and does. It can be also found in good high schools. .mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

Let me ask you if you were to be shown that erradicating poverty is cost effective, would you support it?

Bobert, it isn't about whether or not it's "cost effective" or not. Our differences stem from what we each think is a better approach for dealing with poverty, or, more accurately, caring for the poor.

You seem to come down on the side of believing that the poor have no hand in their predicament.

I don't agree.

And you seem to believe that those who "have" actually want poverty to exist.

I don't agree

And you seem to believe that if you had the reins for while, you could "cure" poverty.

I don't agree. And I don't think there will ever not be poor. That doesn't mean that I don't accept the responsibility for caring for the poor -- and the desire to find the best way for them to become productive and self-sufficient, or be reasonably certain that the poverty is their choice of lifestyle.

But I do kinda resent your characterization of me as less than caring. And your characterization of me as non-caring is not because of what I do believe -- but, rather, because I don't believe what you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

Well gol danged, John... We agree on one thing. Public assistence was never intended to likft anyone out of poverty...

But it should or it is self-defeating... It;s like a doctor who knows that you need 100 MG's of a particular medicine in order to be cutred and perscribe's 50 MG's?...

Let me ask you if you were to be shown that erradicating poverty is cost effective, would you support it?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM

That is nuts. Four might be reasonable..you don't want 12 or 20 of course if you are the landlord...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

Argh. Just found out that a bylaw in Toronto prevents more than 2 adults from living in a 2bdr apartment. Way to prevent people from being able to split the cost of housing in order to be able to pay their rent, guys!

Jesus Christ. Who came up with THAT idea??

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:03 PM

"But that's not what public assistance is for. Public assistance is the safety net that minimizes any suffering from being poor."

That is very true. Public assistance is supposed to be temporary. It is supposed to be used to make sure rent and food are taken care of for a couple of months while between jobs, for those who cannot get employment insurance.

There ARE no programs to support the poor to a standard of living where they become capable of becoming not poor. There are no government programs that enable the poor to grasp even the bottom rung of the ladder of success... at least, not that I know of in Canada or the US.

This is why the housing issue is so important, because even governmental support will not pay for true housing costs. Financial planners everywhere recommend that total housing costs be 30-40% of your total income so that you can pay all your other bills... government assistance *requires* housing costs to be 70% of your total income... and completely ignores the fact that at true housing rates, if you're on assistance you often pay 90-100% of your total income towards housing.

Bobert, there are figures proving that it is more expensive to keep people poor than to pay for their true monthly needs through housing assistance and government assistance. Shelters cost a LOT of money, which is surprising considering that shelters crowd people together into less rooms. It is counter-intuitive to realize that crowding people costs more than setting people up in their own apartments. However, the overcrowding of shelters also creates a greater health care cost, and by the time people end up in shelters they are usually in need of more care than if their needs had been taken care of previously.

There are not that many halfway houses, considering the need, and considering that halfway houses are in fact cheaper than shelters to run. There is also a definite need for more apartment complexes that offer half subsidized apartments and half market rate. There is no profit in that though, only a societal gain, so builders are much less likely to build complexes with that aim in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

Who needs poverty? I've just received an email that says I've won the lottery! I'm rich, I tell you, beyond my wildest dreams, I'm stinking rich!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:41 AM

public assistance can never raise a famiy out of poverty. By definition, anyone who qualifies for public assistance is among the poor.

But that's not what public assistance is for. Public assistance is the safety net that minimizes any suffering from being poor.

Certainly any program of public assistance would be wise to be implememnted in a manner that would be an incentive to, not a deterent from, financial independence.

But, complain as you may about the way that liberals such as you set up the public assistance programs....:^)...one reason why many private assistance programs still have a better success rate with raising the poor out of their poverty is that private programs can interject reward for behavior into their programs. You'd have to be pretty blind to not accept that the majority of true poverty is directly a result of lifestyle and behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM

No, John, I believe that the politics of compromise probably entered into the original program. There was a sister program entitles AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) but it was very strict on man-in-house as well unless the man was disabled... The main problem with both ADC and AFDC was that it didn't actually provide enough funds to lift people out of poverty. In doing that it was a self perpetuating system of minimal assistance. And becuase these folks still lived in poverty under ADC there kids continued to suffer and so it really never solved anything at all.

The picture you painted of "Men aintaining a stable of 'welfare bitches'" was and still is way off the mark. If you are going to judge a program by the very small percentage of folks who might abuse it then you can take just about every program or law and throw it out the window. Should we shut down the Pentagon because of the prisoner abuse scandals in Iraq?

But back to having it both ways. No, I don't think I've ever said anything like that. What I have observred is that ideologies these days sure can get blurred by partisanship. I mean look at all these so called conservatives who seem not to be very concerned my the massive debt that Bush is racking up. So, I'm thinking that if folks on yer side of equarion can accept this debt, hey, maybe you could change you idealogies on ending poverty if it were shown to be in the long run less expensive than maintaining poverty... Which I believe, just from a pure dollars and sense, it probably is...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:46 AM

I'm not sure what you're asking, Bobert, but the implication doesn't make much sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways. If conservative thinkers are the ones who opposed welfare in the first place, it is not likely that they are the architects of the program as implemented.

If there were some short-sighted rules built into the implementation of the welfare program (like making sure there is no man present), why would you conclude that that is a "conservative" idea? That doesn't make any sense.

Why don't you tell me why the architects of the program decided it would be for women and their children only.

If I were to guess, I would say it was an initial attempt to stop the practice of men maintaining a stable of "welfare bitches", wherein a man enslaves a number of women in order to get their government check to use on his drug habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:58 PM

I agree...we drove the fathers out of the family through stupid, idiotic rules concerning public housing, welfare, etc. It is one of the most horrific things America has ever done. Now, live in boyfriends are another matter...and there is this whole cycle involving abuse of the daughter in many of those situations, and inpregnating the daughter, and that being the daughter's first experience with ..I can't call them men but whatever a good name for them is. We, women, have to admit that we do not know how to raise boys by ourselves. Period, do not. Now, some will be fine. But many many will not be. Oh, but I have love enough for two parents. Oh, I am their mother and their father. Oh, I am a movie star/free spirit/successful businesswoman used to my own way. Bullshit. I think that bringing, deliberately, not accidently, a child into this world without a father is certainly neglect, certainly arrogant behavior, certainly irresponsible. Don't ask me for my opinion on this because I am likely to give it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:37 PM

Mary, mary, mary....

Let me tell you about fathers.... The "Welfare System" has done everything in its power to make sure "dad" was is *not* in the household....

When I first started working for the Department of Social Service's in Ricmond, Va. we were trained, when we made home visits, to look for evidence of a *male* living in the home (nasty apartment in a housing project) and if evidence was found then the poor woman and her three or four kids would looze what little they recieved from ADC (Aid to Depenfdent Children)...

Ahhhh, wonder how one goes about figuring how to escape from falling to the absolute bottom rung???

(That question is sent in the direction of DougR, bb, John Hardly and of course da' man, MG, his knothead-self...)

Ahhhhh, exactly why is it again... that we need poverty???

Ahhhhh, Part B... Why is it that, if we really think that having the highest poverty rate of all the developed nations in the world is something to brag about????

Welcome to the Reagon/Bush/Clinton/Bush America....

Boss Hog has all of you folks by the proverbial 'nads an', no matter what, you all gonna be dancing to the boss's tune....

...and wonderin' how *you* ended up in one o' Boss Hog's "housin' projects"????....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:00 PM

True...but the best gift a mother can give her children is choosing a father for them who will stick by them at least, and hopefully her as well...who will race into burning buildings to save them if necessary..who will work his fingers to the bones for them...and such men are out there..perhaps not one for every woman who would like one, and some women will have to, or hopefully choose to, not have babies if they do not have such a man. They can instead be foster mothers, adopt older children, or find other ways to help children. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:12 PM

I would like to apologize for my off-the-cuff, red-neck statement, "As a woman who raised two children on nothing but my wits, I find that single people who whine about their personal circumstances or ask me for a hand-out are a major drain on my patience. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and find something useful to do."

I do see poverty as A problem that has to be tackled by govt. and motivated by the will of the people. Once again, we are blaming the victim. I am one of those people.

On the other hand, I still believe that happy mothers make happy babies and we should begin by providing housing, nutrition and education TO pregnant women. To provide for the children and ignore the needs of the mother is no solution at all. Given the basics, mothers can begin to nurture her children and provide opportunities for her children.

People with physical and mental challenges should also be given govt. support. To ignore their needs is a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM

Good points, mary...

Just a couple of observations. First, there are very few, if any, housing projects where violence isn't common place. So ya got the lousy housing, the lack of food, the lack of health care and ya got lots of violence. Most kids get desenitized to it very early and become 12 year olds who don't care if they die or not and are ready to show off just how bad they are... This, unfortunaely, is the norm, rather than the exception...

Now, as for drug treatment.... Yes, we not only need to spend the monery to keep facilites open but we need a re-examination of out drug policies.

Our drug policies are pushing folks, who need help, into over populated incarceration facilities where if they didn't have a criminal mind going in will certainly come out with one... This is where drug treatment comes into play. If you can get to the druggie before he or she gets too intrenched in the criminal justice system you stand a better chance of having success. And, yeah, success is tough because, inspite of treatment, the recivitist rates are still way too high (no pun intended). But we aren't spending the money that we once did on treatment. No where near. Meanwhile, the need has increased rather than decreased...

And let me just say something about the recivitist rates. We're going to have high rates until we really look at and deal with the effects of poverty.

Now, I'm sure there are some folks getting real bored with this ol' hillbillies rants aboutm poverty (and other issues) but this issue doesn't *HAVE* to be viewed as some :bleeding heart" issue. Poverty is expensive and in these times we can no longer afford it. It may be cheaper to deal with it than to deal with the effects of it...

I think if we were to put a dollar amount on what it costs us it would be an amazing amount of money... So to my friends here that think fighting poverty is a "liberal" cause, I'd invite you to think that conquering it might just put a few more dollars in your pockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: mg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 12:43 PM

Of course personal responsibility would make a huge difference, and there is a viscious cycle between personal irresponsibility and poverty..each leads to the other. Lots of poverty can not be helped, due to personal circumstances, lack of opportunity etc. But it is magnified, I would estimate 10-fold in terms of the discomfort and pain that people endure, by other people's behavior. If you live in a housing project where everyone behaves themselves, does not use drugs, you still have the leaky roofs, possible vermin, possible hunger, heating problems, etc. But you don't have the terror, the gunshots, the sexual assaults, etc. etc. You don't have police and firemen afraid to come there. You don't have the taxi drivers afraid to pick up people there. You don't have small businesses, such as laundromats, florists, etc. afraid to establish there and provide some anemities and employment.

And of course, if you have kids born into that, it is hard to break the cycle, but it can be done. And there are plenty of people who do not have that poverty upbringing as an excuse. A friend of mine works as a housecleaner and her dufus adult son got into meth. He is ruining her life, the rest of the family's, the community just got a meth user as if we needed more...property values go down, police are stretched to their limits here..elderly are not safe in their houses..we have to talk about personal behavior and we have to not slam down anyone who refers to it. You do not have all the answers. You have some. I have some. Everyone has some, but to fix poverty you can not wait until every financial problem is cleared. You have to have people off drugs, being responsible in their reproduction, etc. etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:08 AM

Funny to whom?

See, it's jokes like that that stick in the heads of folks who are not part of the solution but very much part of the problem... Yeah, strip a few layers off this seemingly little joke and there at the core is the misconception that poor people choose to be poor...

Might of fact, I remember listening to Brother Dave Gardner as a kid and thought he was a hoot but after I had my conscousness jack up I thought back on a lot of the stuff he said that was nothing but bogotry and racist deisguised as comedy... I might add there are a few black comics I've heard that haven't furthered the cause much with their own "Brother Dave" comedy but at least it ain't a white guy making fun of blacks.

Now, before someone gets on their high horse and accuses this ol' hillbilly of choosing to portary poverty as an exclusively black experience I will go on record of saying that poverty effects all races. There are more white people living in poverty than blacks thou the percentage is much higher in the black community. Might of fact, my own state of Wes Ginny has the highest percentage of folks living in poverty: 16.6%. Lots of these folks live in the coal areas and lots of them are elderly...

But seriously, when we look at the costs of poverty from crime. incarceration, bad health, loss of production it is billion and billions of dollars... I'm not sure if anyone has ever really put a price on it or you one could. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if if it's now costing us more in dollars than it would take to really take it on and elliminate it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Jeep man
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:44 PM

The late comedian,Brother Dave Gardner, made an interesting statement in one of his records.

Lets put a tax on being poor. That', made the get up and make something out of their self.   Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:00 PM

John,

First of all, I am truly saddened to read about your father taking his own life. Suicide is such a cruel thing to do to loved ones...

Now, as for judegements. Reread what you ahve just written. It has more personal judgements of me by you than I think you can find I've made against my fellow catters in the some 5000 or so posts I have made here...

But that's not at issue here. What is is poverty, it's roots and it's fixes. From what I read about your situation I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you haven't really seen it up close. No, I am not black, but I can honestly say that I have worked in and lived with poor balck people so I have had a glimpse into a culture that few white folks know about. Movies don't come close to portraying just what it is like to live in a hostile housing project. I know a lot about housing projects 'cause I was a social worker for many years in Richomnd, Va. And I know a lot about the joint 'cause I spent 2 years as the jail house teacher in thre Richmond City Jail. And I know a lot about how kids go left when they grow up in bad situation s because I worked several years at Rubicom, Richmonds inpatient drug rehab program, half the time living right there in the middle of the ghetto with, ahhhhh, a house full of black folks who was trying to keep clean and stay out of jail... 3/4's of them failed...

Those esperiences consumed the first 20 years of my working life. Even today, I enjoy the company of black people and drive into D.C. to a semi-bad neighborhood every Saturday to play blues in an old barber shop in NE...

No, I'm not black... and I don't speak for the black community... but I have witnessed in my life a whole lot o' stuff that probably 99% of white America doesn't have a clue about.

This thread is about poverty and I know lots about poverty. Probably more than I really need or want to know... Yeah, I get real riled up when folks go blowing their horn about personal responsibility as if that's gonna fix a danged thing...

"You cannot solve a problem with the same consciousness that created it (Einstien)"

White guys are responsible for this problem and continue to be responsible. I'm not pointing you out specificly. But I am pointing out the Bush adminstration as being the worst since LBJ's Great Society in even making a modest face-saving attempt to continue to fight the good fight...

REagan was bad but these guys are 10 times worse.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM

My mother raised 3 of her six children alone after my father killed himself (the other three were teenagers - one in college already). My father did not prepare my mother for his decision -- the life insurance he had taken out upon new employment was not in effect when he huffed our '61 Ford Falcon's tailpipe.

My mother worked 40 or more hours a week as a part-time worker because to go full-time (and get the benefits that came with full-time) would have meant that she might not be availible enough to accomodate for the time she might have to take off to care for us kids.

You don't have to diminish the hard work and sacrifice of my mother to make your points. Your view that all who "have" cheated to get "it" is not just naive, it is insulting. And your view that I must "have" in order to hold the views I do is equally ignorant. I am a self-employed potter. I work hard and I don't cheat.   I am not one of the "haves" -- certainly not by your narrow view of the world wherein exactly half the world is cheated and the other half cheats, and you, in all your wisdom, stand above it all determining which is which.

And you presume to dismiss, not just anyone whose family history you deem disqualifies them from holding a valid opinion on a subject -- but you have also reserved the right to be the judge of whether a person is telling the truth about that family history.

And yet you, who I assume are not a black man, consistantly presume, not only to speak for blacks, but claim to actually feel what they feel.

Yer a trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:04 PM

Well, John, perhaps you'd like to elaborate on just how difficult it was to get educated... Maybe I did presume... But I'm guessing not...

B:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Piers
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

Got this here.

'Since we say capitalism is based on the minority ownership of the means for producing wealth the official figures we're interested in are those for "marketable wealth less value of dwellings" (since people's homes are means of production).
The official figures [UK] . . . for 2002 are:
The top 1% owned 35%
The top 2-5% owned 27%
The top 6-10% owned 13%
The top 11-25% owned 13%
The top 26-50% owned 10%
The bottom 50% owned 2%

So, now the top 5% own getting on for twice as much as the rest of us put together.

. . .

Having said this, we socialists are not advocating a redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. That's not our programme at all (and doesn't and can't work anyway, given capitalism). What we are saying is that the means of wealth production should be owned in common by the whole community, ie shouldn't belong to anybody, but should simply be there to be used under democratic control to turn out what people need instead of as present to make a profit for the tiny minority who own and control then.'

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Piers
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

From The People :
"Ownership of America is now more concentrated than since the days of the Robber Barons of the 19th century," Reich said. "The richest one percent of America owns more than the bottom 90 percent put together." ("The most current Monthly Population Estimate for the United States is 293,382,953, as of June 1, 2004," according to the U.S. Census Bureau, which, if Reich is correct, means that 2.9 million people own more wealth than the other 290 million people put together.)
The conclusion is hard to escape: if "ownership brings security and dignity and independence," as Mr. Bush said, capitalism has brought just the opposite to 99 percent of the American people.
Reich added his own bit of hokum to the mix by claiming that the solution to this disparity is to tax the rich and overhaul the education system. That won't do it, however, anymore than the New Deal reforms of the 1930s did. What will do it is a socialist reconstruction of our society in which all of America's 293 million people will own the economy and determine their own economic destiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Piers
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

From this months' Socialist Standard.

'King Mswati III of Swaziland has just bought himself another car; not any old car, but a brand new Daimler-Chrysler Maybach 62, powered by a six-litre bioturbo engine, and fitted out with a television, a 21-speaker surround sound system, a heated steering wheel, champagne flutes within reach of the fully reclining seats, a refrigerator, a cordless telephone, a gold bag and a pollen and dust filter. And the cost? Almost £400,000.
And the country over which King Mswati III rules?
Swaziland, entirely surrounded by South Africa and Mozambique, one of the smallest countries in Africa with an area of 6,700 square miles, has a population of fewer than one million, of whom more than 80 percent exist on one US dollar a day, 40 percent of adults have HIV/AIDS, the highest rate in the world.   According to the World Food Programme, about a third of the population require and will probably receive, emergency food assistance this year. According to the WFP (Guardian, 14 December) absolute poverty, unemployment, HIV/AIDS and poor farming practices 'has left large numbers of households with no food stocks, or unable to provide for themselves'.
Swaziland, moreover, has been in a state of emergency since 1973, when the so-called constitutional monarchy imposed by Great Britain became absolute. However, the king is supposedly adored by his subjects, and the country is a tourist haven, mainly for affluent South Africans. So that's all right then! . . .

Since this purchase the king has also bought each of his ten wives a BMW, for a mere $820,000. Sadly, street protests by churlish locals, prevented him spending $45m on a luxury jet.'

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM

I was raised by a widow. My education did not come free you presumptuous ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:50 PM

Okay, Obie, I'll buy that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why do we need poverty?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 12:05 PM

Of course people with poor physical health are less able to fend for themselves...

...As a woman who raised two children on nothing but my wits, I find that single people who whine about their personal circumstances or ask me for a hand-out are a major drain on my patience.

So you didn't raise your two children on nothing but your wits if you had your health. You raised them with your wits and your good health. The lack of either one or both of these things can severely limit a person's ability to provide for her own self, much less any children. This is something good to keep in mind when telling other people (based on your own experiences) what they ought to be able to accomplish.