When It Doesn't Rhyme

Subject: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

I've been working on a song, and ended up with a verse where noe of the lines rhyme. Actually, I had an earlier version of the verse that did rhyme, but I didn't like what it said. So, given the two choices (there are probably others, admittedly) I chose the verse that didn't rhyme:

   He will bring mercy to the forsaken
   He will bring comfort to those who mourn
   To the afflicted, he will bring healing
   And to the weary, he will bring rest

Sometimes, it's alright if a line doesn't rhyme.

Many, many years ago I wrote a song Get Down Home. The chorus is:

You'd better get down home, and find out where you went wrong
It's been such a long, long time since you went away
And when you find yourself, you won't have to look for someone else
You know where to find me, I'll still be around

"Away" and "around" don't even graze a rhyme.

There are wonderful traditional songs that I've never tired of singing who find great humor in not making the rhyme you would expect.
The Lazy Farmer Boy avoids the rhyme pattern of the song for obvious reason:

   He went to the fields and he got there at last
   The grass and the weeds were up to his chin

"chin" doesn't rhyme with last, but everyone knows what does. Sometimes the last word of an obvious rhyme is left off, and the singer goes into the chorus..

"He lost his way and he went to ... Hopalong Peter where you goin'?

Sometimes it's alright not to rhyme. Got any examples? If you're a songwriter, share one with us.

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:42 PM

This classic limerick doesn't rhyme:

There once was a man from St. Bees
Who was stung in the arm by a wasp.
When asked if it hurt,
He replied, "No it doesn't."
But thank god that it wasn't a hornet.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:50 PM

That's great, Charlie!

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 03:56 PM

I'm no rhymer, but I'll make an observation anyway:

I think we have two completely different situations here where it's OK not to rhyme.

Sometimes, the meaning of the words, the message, is so compelling, that you don't even notice that the last word/syllable of a given line doesn't rhyme where it "should." I think that's what's happening in Jerry's "mercy to the forsaken" (which, by the way, seems just fine to me). It may be more important for the meter to flow naturally than in more normal (rhyming) circumstances, so as to avoid drawing any extra attention to the lyrical form and thus to keep the listener's attention focused on the message/meaning of the words. I think there are a fair number of well-known songs where you have this kind of "stealth" non-rhyme, but I can't think of any off the top of my head ~ perhaps precisely because these songs were written effectively, without drawing undue attention to their "imperfection."

The other examples where a word doesn't rhyme (e.g., to avoid pronouncing a vulgarity like "ass") have the opposite intent ~ the listener is supposed to be highly conscious of the expected rhyme and to anticipate it, and then to be surprised and entertained by the innocuous subsitution of another word, the sillier the better.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:00 PM

When It Doesn't Rhyme
grease it with some slime ;-)

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:03 PM

might be nice to have a chorus that rhymed really obviously. well thats what I think.

but there again what I know about religious music could fit comfortably on to a very small thing.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:18 PM

Rhyme has two main functions, and sometimes one is more important than the other:

1. It may help with the singer's keeping the verse straight in memory. This is more commonly a use in song than in poetry.

2. The repeated sound of the rhyme is used to emphasize the rhythm of the verse form. I've read (in translation) the comments of Roman poets who were highly scornful of a poet who could not write poetry without descending to such low-class tricks as rhyme to establish an appropriate rhythm to their poetry.

Then of course there are the comic uses of rhyme, such as perversely tortured words to achieve a rhyme (as often in Ogden Nash), or the willful absence of rhyme in order to imply something else when a rhyme is expected, as was referred to above.

In Shakespeare's plays, a great deal of the poetry is rhymeless, depending on the pulse of his language, but a large part of the time he will use two rhyming lines to bring a sequence to an end, especially as a character is to exit the stage. Such a rhyming couplet seldom (never??) occurs in the Shakespeare plays except in such circumstances.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

Jerry,

I heard that Woody Guthrie wrote "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos" AKA
"Deportees" as an exercise in not rhyming. You know:

The crops are all in and the peaches are rotting
The oranges are piled in their creosote dumps
They're flying 'em back to the Mexico border
To take all their money to wade back again

Just the opposite of you, he chose to rhyme the chorus, but not the verses.

A friend of mine wrote a poem that I loved so much I set it to music. I also wanted to meet the challenge of not rhyming.

Spirit's Promise by Laura Vanderlinden

Little one,
I'll hold you in my arms,
And keep you safe beside me.
I'll rock you gently,
And wrap you with my love.
My kindness will fill your soul,
And heal your wounds.
Every breath you take,
Will be blessed by me.

Never doubt for a moment,
That I am here to guide you,
Where ever you may walk,
I will light your way.

I am faithful to you always.
You'll never be alone.
The stars shine down around us.
Together we are home.

Well, there is an "abcb" in the last verse.

As a song, it has received positive reviews and many do not notice it does not rhyme. I didn't notice "Deportees" didn't rhyme either.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:28 PM

Just to clarify it... the lines quoted from Get Down Home are the chorus. The verses all rhymed. The lines from the song I just finished are from a verse. In that song, the chorus rhymes. For a long time, Get Down Home was one of the most requested songs that I sang, and people sang along on the chorus after the first time through. Not once did anyone ever comment that it didn't rhyme.

I think Poppa Gator nailed it.. If the song is saying what you want it to say, the lack of a rhyme may well go completely unnoticed. Thanks for the examples..

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Bert
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:40 PM

One of my favorites that uses deliberate substitution is Nobby Hall

But as you say sometimes a rhyme doesn't SOUND right so you have to do without it. I had one such songwriting attempt that never did work. Every time I tried to force rhyme or rhythm on it it just sounded trite and forced. So I just left it as a story. Funny thing is I told the story at a local songwriters circle and a couple of weeks later someone asked me about "That Song"

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Bert
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

Here's another example that not onle doesn't rhyme, it doesn't resolve musically either. It's great fun to sing and always gets a laugh.

Espresso Machine (Tune: Spinning Wheel )

Last Wednesday night at the famous Steel City
It came to my turn to sing a short ditty
In the midst of a song of a lass and her lover
The Espresso machine goes
Shhhh, shuff, shuff, shuff, shweeee shoooooooow shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

My turn came again, thought I'd try something loud
A song of our flag that would make us all proud
When I got to the part where the flag started waving
Shew shew shew shew shew
Shhhh, shuff, shuff, shuff, shweeee shoooooooow shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Now came my last chance it was nearly nine thirty
A song that is funny, perhaps a bit dirty
I got to the part where they all roar with laughter
When that blasted machine goes
Shhhh, shuff, shuff, shuff, shweeee shoooooooow shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Copyright Bert Hansell, 2004

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:34 PM

Rhyming is a device to help compel the listener to the words. It can be overused as many interior rhymes are, but interior rhymes serve as a rhythmic agent. Too many songwriters get lazy when they could use rhymes. Imagery may be more important than rhymes but a rhyme scheme can punch up the imagery even more. I don't like identities or false rhymes because I feel that it calls attention to the songwriter's laziness. The imagery has to be so good that it overshadows the false rhyme or identity. I don't like accents on the wrong syl-AH-ble either such as rhyming a feminine ending rhyme with a masculine ending one. Ex. Being free and ener-gee. (To me this is laziness). "Entropy" is a better rhyme for "energy". Or three short words would work such as "Ben or me". The three words ending with "me" being a rhyme for "energy". Or "tenor key" would work too for a musical reference.

I like to see cliches avoided at all costs unless it's part of the humor or making a point of being a cliche. After Christopherson, so many pop songs started in on "making it through the night". "Moon-June" is the classic forties cliche.

False rhymes better have a good reason for them.

I like the idea of some lines not having rhymes and some that do.

In my song: "In The Valley" the first stanza runs like this.

When the sparrow wings his way across the sky.
And the wind sings through the valley.
With the sunrise, the snow begins to thaw
on the lea side of the valley.

(No rhymes on the first part of this stanza)

On the mountain, the springtime waters flow
Down the hillside, to reach the crops below

(Rhymes on those two lines)

It's the right time for a soul to be reborn
When the dawn breaks in the valley.

(No rhymes on the last two lines.)

So I think you can mix it up and have it intelligible. Some might disagree but in the final cut, it depends on how it works as a song to sing.

Frank

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:37 PM

Bert:

That's the best non-rhymer I've seen!! LOL!!


A

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:40 PM

Having part of a song rhyme while the other part doesn't seems to be an effective strategy (e.g., verse rhymes, chorus doesn't). Also, having internal rhymes and near-rhymes helps satisfy the "need" for rhyming and might help "mask" the absense of rhymes in the expected places.

For example, in Woody's "Deportees" ~ a great example, by the way ~ you have the unconventional rhyme pattern of two consecutive words in the chorus, "be" and "deportee." And in Jerry's chorus to Get Down Home, it may be true that "'Away' and 'around' don't even graze a rhyme," but there are two pretty-good pairs of internal near-rhymes ~ "home/wrong" and "self/else".

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM

Jerry - wot U got there is anaphora. Maybe with the repetition, rhyme is too much. And there is a pattern. So you have the function of rhyme from that. - audible punctuation.



   He will bring mercy to the forsaken
   He will bring comfort to those who mourn
   To the afflicted, he will bring healing
   And to the weary, he will bring rest

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM

As Tom Lehrer once said,

The tune don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you put a coupla extra syllables into a line.
It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English,
And it don't even gotta rhyme---excuse me---rhyne.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:32 PM

Poppagator, the words "self" and "else" are not "almost rhymes"; they are perfect alliterations!

They alliterate NOT because they both begin with "e" but because they both begin with vowels. The letters "i", "a", "o", and "u" would do as well to alliterate with either "elf" or "else", like "elf/also", "elf/under", and so on.

Alliteration of consonants, of course, calls for the same beginning consonant sound.

I'm rather fond of North European alliterative verse, which almost never rhymes but uses an internal pattern of alliterations to build the heroic beat. I know, however, that some people intensely dislike this sort of verse. Different strokes, and all that.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM

The first line of Jerry's first post here reads: "I've been working on a song, and ended up with a verse where none of the lines rhyme." Later, Jerry says that his chorus rhymes. Ah, but do his other verses rhyme? If so, then he has established a song structure that, ideally, he should adhere to throughout the song. As far as I know from what I've read on the subject (and I've read quite a bit because I'm a stickler for "true rhyme" and am trying to open my mind to other possibilities), the only rule to follow is that a song's structure should be consistent within itself. If none of the verses of Jerry's song contains a rhyme, then why worry?

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 10:24 PM

Hey, Sharon: No, the other verses and the chorus rhyme. I am not a stickler. The only thing I'm a stickler about is that the music flows, says what I want to say and doesn't draw undue attention to itself. The rest is just rules.

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: CStrong
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 10:29 PM

One of the greatest lyrics ever: Larry Henley/Jeff Silbar's "Wind Beneath My Wings"

Did you ever know that you're my hero
And everything I'd like to be
I can fly higher than an eagle
You are the wind beneath my wings.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 11:23 PM

Beautiful example, CStrong!

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 11:50 PM

SharonA, long time no see!! How ya been?


A

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

cosher had a cousin Billy
who played soccer for Caerphilly
but then he ook up rugger
he was such a silly billy

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:27 AM

Avoiding expected rhymes was often done in German songs, not so much to avoid profanity, but to avoid a word disrespectful to the respective reigning nobility in a part of Germany. These were quite artful songs, formerely omitting the rhyme word would not have helped against punishment. The idea was to lead the listener to expect a disrespectful rhyme word but to end the verse with a slight change of tune and rhyming pattern so that everything rhymed perfectly but not as expected.

These were songs that did rhyme but not at that place and with that word everybody expected.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 11:30 AM

It is a simple question really--as the poet/writer, you are in total control--you pick the subject, the rhyme scheme, the meter--if you can't get the rhyme or the rhythm to work, you are over your head, and should find a structure you can work with--if you don't want to bother, you're not much of an artist-

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,Pete Jennings
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

No obligation to rhyme. Listen to Dylan's "Last Thoughts On Woodie Guthrie" or, better still, read it. Then read it again. He uses several meters, and sometimes none, and it's prose as opposed to verse so there is no obvious attempt at rhyming. But it is an outstanding piece of contemporary poetry.

Nothing wrong with rhymes and rhythms, but nothing wrong without them either IMHO. And they can be very limiting.

Pete

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 01:49 PM

How's this?

He will bring mercy to the forsaken
He will bring comfort to those who mourn
To the afflicted, he will bring healing
And to the hungry, he will bring corn--


and I didn't even use a rhyming dictionary-I just looked in the freezer!

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 02:40 PM

In Irish verse in English there is often a great use of part rhymes and echoes that aren't rhymes, with internal near-rhymes and so forth.

For example, The Banks of the Bann (That link is to a Mirror of the Digital Tradition, since right now I can't get into the real one, because of this stuff that keeps happening with the Mudcat that stops us logging in.)

Here are the middle three verses (varied slightly to match the way I know the song):

On the banks of the Bann, it was there I first met her
She appeared like some angel or Egypt's fair queen
Her eyes were like diamonds or the stars brightly shining
She's the fairest of all that my eyes ever seen

Oh it was her cruel parents that first caused our variance
Because she is rich and above my degree
But I'll do my endeavor for to gain my love's favor
Although she is come of a high family

Oh, me name is Delaney, it's a name that won't shame me
And if I had money I'd never have roamed
But drinking and sporting, night rambling and courting
Are the cause of my ruin and my absence from home.

Sometimes people have seen this kind of thing as somehow flawed, and as just an indication that the person makiing the song wasn't up to getting "proper rhymes". I disagree. In fact I think that sometimes too many "perfect rhymes" can get in the way of a song.   

It's a matter of individual taste, and people differ. But it's never safe to assume that, when a songmaker doesn't use full rhymes, or any kind of rhyme, that's because they can't manage it. It'd be perfectly easy to make that verse Jerry wrote rhyme, as the last post demonstrated. But it didn't need it.

The mistake people make often is trying so hard to find rhymes that they end up mangling the thought, or the expression of the thought, or mess up what is far more important than rhyme, the run of the words and the balance of the lines.

Sometimes I have deliberately avoided a rhyme, because the sound and sense of a near rhyme just seemed to me to fit better:

For example:

For some it ended in a lonely bullet,
And for some it ended in a cell.
And for some it ended in a life resplendent
As a statesman doing very well...

Obviously I could have made it "a life so splendid" and kept the full rhyme - but I prefered to avoid it, and use "resplendent" because I felt it fitted better.

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

Even if the wheel pulls to the right, a driver knows how to follow the road and not twist in circles--and so it is with verse--the rhymes should follow the meaning, and not the other way around--if you can't manage that, turn in your license--

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

LOL Guest: Maybe I'll use it!

I find it interesting to see such seemingly diametrically opposed opinions onf rhyming. But then, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
In songwriting, the easiest thing to do is rhyme. When I've done songwriting workshops I ask if everyone in the workshop has written a song. Some people insist that they haven't until I ask if they never sang parodies of commercials or popular songs when they were kids. Then, they're not so sure.

Here's a great example of a song my nephews wrote when they were eight or ten years old:

   Borned on a mount top in Tennessee
   Ripped my pants on a Christmas Tree
   Patched them up with some bubble gum
   Along come a bear and he asked for some

   Davey, Davey Crokett, King of the wild frontier

   Slept on a table top in Joe's Cafe
   Greasiest joint in the U.S.A.
   Ordered a griddly and that ain't all
   Next thing I knew I was in City Hall

Yes, it all rhymes, but I asked them what a "griddley" was, never having tasted one myself. They said that there's no such thing as a "griddley" but they just liked the sound of it..

The missing rhyme in the verse I quoted could have been solved in several ways. And then I woulda made everything rhyme and wooda been a pro-fessional. The word I chose not to rhyme is "rest." Now, that's an easy enough rhyme to make. being a gospel song, the most obvious one would be blessed. But, I had to come up with a really awkward line just to have it end in "blessed." The second line that I used first was "He will bring freedom to the oppressed." That's not a bad line, but it is at the heart of how Christ's message has been missused, and I didn't want to add to that. Maybe Christ wanted us to invade Iraq to bring freedom to the oppressed? Not on your life. Christ was a bitter dissapointment who saw him as a rebel leader who would lead the Jews to overthrow the Roman Government. He made it clear that his kingdom was not of this earth, and yet there were some who twisted his message to serve their own needs. Still happening today. The freedom that Christ talks about is a spiritual freedom, not one from an oppressive government. So, I dumped the line.

Last night at practice, I sang the song for the other guys in the Gospel Messengers. They really enjoyed the song and wanted to keep singing it, long after I wanted to move on to other songs. They didn't crinkle their noses and say "Ewwww, that line doesn't rhyme!"
They heard the message. Probably didn't even notice that the line didn't rhyme.

Sometimes, it's worth sacrificing a rhyme to say what you want to say in a natural, flowing way.

Jerry

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:04 PM

Hey there, Amos! Hope you're well. I've been better but I've been worse. Won't go into detail here, but I've been spendin' wayyy too much time with eye surgeons lately. I'll PM you later.

Back to the subject: Anybody here ever listen to the songs of Fred Small? I went to see him in concert and he drove me crazy because he sang several songs with a very tight rhyming scheme that, in the 3rd or 4th verse of a song (after listeners are lulled into expecting a rhyme) he broke with by deliberately throwing in a non-rhyming word -- not a near-rhyme, but a contrasting word. I guess he meant to make his listeners sit up and take notice of his message. While I found his technique effective at first, I tired of it after hearing it in song after song. I felt annoyed, as if he were playing the same practical joke over and over again. How many times was he going to shake my hand with a hand buzzer?? After a while I didn't want to offer my hand -- or lend my ear -- or pay money to go to his concerts -- anymore.

Anyway, here's one of my more adventurous rhymes. It's an AABA with a twist: the beginning of the 4th line is the "B" rhyme with the end of the 3rd line...

    Oh, life has been a b*tch for me since I was a pup.
    I'm always "worst in show" and losing the loving cup
    And I've become a spinster-lady complete with cats.
    That's not what I wanted to be when I grew up.

    I used to call myself a bachelorette and grin.
    I've lived alone; I've lived with roommates; I've lived in sin!
    But I assumed that someday I would be settlin' down.
    Now nobody seems to want me to settle in.

    (In that last verse, "down" rhymes with "now n"!)

I presented this at a song-critique session of one of the local songwriters' organizations, and one of my songwriting friends laughed at me for breaking away from my usual super-rigid rhyming schemes! (...albeit ever so slight a breakaway) But no hard feelings; now she and I are co-chairpersons of that organization!

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:55 PM

A classic example of doggerel verse;-)

Subject: RE: When It Doesn't Rhyme
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:23 AM

and a doggerel in the manger Guest