Mary don't you weep--meaning

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: gargoyle
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 11:54 PM

The previous posting reminds me of the classic TAG-LINE to the song "Paper of Pins" between two singers:

And I won't let you have the last word, (she)
And I won't let you have the last word, (he)
So I guess I have to marry, (she)
So I guess I have to marry, (he)
So I guess I have to marry, you....(he-she)

There is NO doubt that you 'B.Seed' and I 'gargoyle' are together on this forum.....(for better, for worse, for richer, or poorer, and poorer still).....(and even the Clintonian Economics that lies in our miserable future)

IF>>>Ya don't go a goin' postin' them things>>> ya know NOTHIN' BOUT>>>> then I won't go a itchin' after yer skin.

Pax, gargoyle

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: gargoyle
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 11:43 PM

My Dear Mr. Seed,

Please accept my most humble apologizes.

Anyone that places themselves upon a "pedestal" as an "educator" and then proceeds to post....Non-Truths, (and attempts to excuse them as a 'falty-memory...when the facts are readily at hand, for an "educated person" to check) is a very tempting target for "deflation."

"Pride Comes Before the Fall"

Mr. B.S......We appear to share a kindred spirit.

[PLEASE --- "Mr. Joe Offer" (aka - Mr. Omnipotent of this universe) whip this awful diatribe out of existance at the end of the weekend}

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: BSeed
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 06:19 PM

I'd be happy to drop it. But Gargoyle somehow finds it necessary to jump on about everything I write since Barbara and I had an exchange about Stranger in a Strange Land a couple of months ago. His responses to my writing rarely present reasoned arguments counter to what I have said but attack me personally as stupid, irrelevant, etc. I ignored it for the first month, welcomed him back when he seemed to be missing for a couple of weeks, but he was soon at it again, always beginning his postings with what--in another context--might have seemed innocent, the first two letters of my nickname, but now lower case, followed by periods, now not a salutation but clearly an expression of contempt, given the nature and tone of the message which followed.

At first I continued to ignore it, but it began to sour my experience here and I began responding to his taunts (he usually had no other message) sarcastically, then angrily. After such a posting, I'd feel a momentary relief from the ache in my gut, but I was not proud of my part in it. I apologize to everyone else who has been subjected to this. I'll go back to ignoring him as well as I can. --seed

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: FIDDLER MIKE
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 08:36 AM

Roger

Well said, but back here in Appalacia we translate that to mean
"NO FUSSIN' on the FORUM FELLERS".

Keep Singin'
Mike T.

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From:
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 08:15 AM

"If I could I surely would stand on the rock where Moses stood" probably means I would free my people just as Moses freed his. I think the originator of the phrase visualized Moses as standing on a rock when he raised his staff and caused the waters to part. The next phrase "Pharo's army got drowned" is to reinforce the allusion.

This reminds me of a story:

Moses is standing at the shore of the Red Sea with his PR man.

"Abe," he says, "have you ever seen such incompetence? Here we are standing at the edge of the water, the Egyptian army is right behind us, and those idiots forget the boats! What do they expect me to do raise my staff and command the water to part?"

"Do that Moses, baby," says the PR man, "and I'll get you four pages in the old testament.

Murray

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 06:13 AM

Bseed and Gargoyle,

What is going on? Both of you are capable of wonderful, informing, and stimulating posts. But occasionally it gets personal.

When you encounter something you don't like or with which you don't agree in this forum, you are most welcome to post your own thoughts and/or opinions. No need to cast aspersions in addition.

Opinions and thoughts are like elbows, most people have more than one and they are usually a little different from those of their fellow human beings. To paraphrase other wise people, "Take what you need (from this forum) and leave the rest." 'Tis a civil approach I recommend to all.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: BSeed
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 03:12 AM

Forgive me, Nathan--I didn't mean to imply that think you are a "vessel for the direct word of God." --seed

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: BSeed
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 03:09 AM

Nathan, far be it from me to deny the power of music. I was merely stating that one does not have to be "born again" to create it. Nor did I intend to deny the power of religion as inspiration. I was merely bothered by your apparent claiming that your religion is the sole source of inspiration.

And as for that other vessel for the direct voice of God, phhhhhhhhhht! --seed

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:27 PM

The line, "stand on the Rock where Moses stood" also has both and OT and NT meanings.

It reflects the desire to "Know GOD" in the sense that Moses did....in a working, face to face, personal experience.....that is life transforming. Moses was not the same man when he came down from the mountain....and neither were the people of Israel, shortly afterward.

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 10:21 PM

B.S.

As usual, you have overstepped the bounds of your knowlege.

Ignorance, is bliss, only to the ignorant....to all others it is an insult.

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From:
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 04:25 PM

Likewise, oppressors have used music to facilitate their oppression. Doesn't detract from the reality of the inspiration of music to inspire the oppressed to break free.

- Nathan

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: BSeed
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 04:09 PM

Through history, God and Jesus have been used by oppressors to justify their oppression at least as much as belief in them has inspired the oppressed to struggle to break free of their oppressors. I think a strong sense of the brotherhood of man, whether that sense be Christian or Islamic or Buddhist or Hindu or Confucianist or Secular Humanist or whatever, is what gives passion to the singer's message. --seed

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: Nathan
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 03:55 PM

I've also wondered about the line "If I could, I surely would, stand on the rock where Moses stood." It shows up in "Mary Don't You Weep" and various other places. I think the Carter Family did a version (don't know if it was before or after Leadbelly. Ialso seem to remember it in an early song by The Band" ("Jemima Surrender"?). Which rock?
Nice to see a thread with a theological bent.
Nathan Sarvis Denton, Texas

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: FIDDLER MIKE
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 12:07 PM

You "all" hit the nail on the head. The song says to
Mary (and all of us) that our GOD will liberate us from our oppressors, just as he did for Moses and his people. It seems to say "Don't wory I am for all ages."

It's interesting how we can't become good performers if we don't believe in ourselves, and God can't liberate us if we refuse to believe in Jesus.

Good thread Brad
Keep singin' Mike T.

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From:
Date: 03 Dec 98 - 07:28 AM

Seed has a point. Isn't there another verse "Mary wept and Martha moaned (or mourned)"? It could be refering to local people.

Murray

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: BSeed
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:34 PM

I don't know that Mary has to be Virgin Mary--thers have borne the name. The speaker in the song may be telling a slave named Mary that, like Pharaoh's army, her oppressors will be overcome. The parallel references are many: the spiritual "Go Down Moses" and Harriet Tubman's appelation as "the Moses of her people" being among them. --seed

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: gargoyle
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 11:31 PM

It is a song of salvation, redemption, resurrection, and comfort.

The reference is double: The grieving Mary on Easter morning and meeting the resurrected Christ whom she mistakes for the gardener....

Also, Mary Magdeline, the prostitute, who wept in repentance and washed the feet of Christ with her tears.

The message is: Don't dispare....Our GOD is a GOD of miracles and awsome power.....He is the same GOD ....both "old" and "new." As he did in the past...he can do today.

Subject: RE: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: evan
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 06:46 PM

It is interesting to find contrasting images from the old and new testaments linked. One possible explanation is that the God of the old testament is the same God in the new testament: Jesus. When he says, "Don't you mourn....Pharoah's army got drowned" perhaps what he is really saying is that Jesus (God) is not dead, look how he triumphed over Pharoah. Remember, he's the same God in both old and new testaments. It is also interesting what you said about Moses being the symbol of liberation. In the old testament God liberated the Jewish people when Pharoah's army was drowned. In the new testament God liberated many more people from their oppressor, in this case sin, when Jesus 'died' on the cross. Both were acts of liberation and may be the reason the two are linked.

Subject: Mary don't you weep--meaning
From: Brad Sondahl
Date: 02 Dec 98 - 12:12 PM

Thinking about the song Mary don't you weep (Leadbelly?):

Oh Mary, don't you weep, don't you mourn,
Oh Mary, don't you weep, don't you mourn,
Pharoah's army got drownded, Oh Mary don't you weep.

The verses are Old Testament but Mary is probably the mother of Jesus. In black tradition Moses was the symbol of liberation... I can't quite figure why the song connected the two images.
I imagine the song predated Leadbelly, but I'd like to hear other's speculation on why Mary and the Moses story got mixed up here.
Brad http://www.camasnet.com/~asondahl/bradindex.html