Tune source: Sammy's Bar

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:35 AM

Can there really *be* such a thing as a new tune by now? I gather that song *copyrights* are accumulating at a rate on the order of 10^5 per year. What is the order of magnitude of the number of different possible tunes? Suppose a note contains 1 bit of information on average -- that is, suppose that a naive listener, presented with a broken-off tune, will guess the next note correctly about half the time. (That may be a generous estimate -- has there been any research?) Suppose a typical tune contains 40 notes. Then the number of distinguishable tunes is about 2^40, or 10^12 -- a trillion, 10 million years' worth. My intuition, tho, is that that number is far too large, and that the right answer to my first question is no.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: It's a crime love has so little space to grace life's little time. :||

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM

I think Sammys Bar is a lovely song and have heard it a lot at Gainsborough Folk Club. Everybody sings their hearts out to it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:33 AM

Shenandoah is the closest model I know for Sammy's Bar...both the feel of the tune and the very accurate match of the harmonic structure.
This is slightly obscured by the extended chorus of Shenandoah, but other than extra bit(away I'm bound to go) the match is fine.
   But I think there is a bit of well-known melody from another source as well in the tune, but I can't just think what it is. Cyril's mastery of using the bits he liked and valued from other songs is wonderful, in the best traditions of folk music. There ha been noody to touch him among the song writers of the English folk revival.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: alanww
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:18 AM

As I have been known to sing both songs, I have previously noticed that the tune for the line "Call away the daighsoe" is a tad similar to that for "Cross the wide Missouri" in Shenandoah! But I sing them in slightly different keys - Bb for Sammy's Bar and C for Shenandoah.
It is perfectly possible that Cyril Tawney may have (unconsciously?) been influenced by it. But as its only six notes it could have been a coincidence and, anyway, what does it matter!
I agree with SandyJ, don't bother him now. But when he recovers fully it might be interesting to ask him.
"Don't mind the rain ...!"
Alan

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,SandyJ
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:28 AM

I believe Cyril is quite unwell at the moment so I wouldn't dream of encroach on his recovery.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:58 AM

This is a legitimate query. Cyril is a great folk composer, and worked out of what he knew: his masterpeice "Grey funnel Line" owed a great deal, melodically and lyrically, to Dink's Song ("If I had wings like Noah's Dove"). I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a bit of a trad song(or two) in "Sammy's Bar". though I can't think of possible sources at the moment. Asking Cyril himself is an excellent suggestion.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM

Always check your facts before making a wager.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,SandyJ
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:32 AM

Looks like I lost the bet.

Thanks anyway

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: Noreen
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM

I believe Cyril Tawney wrote both tune and lyrics, Sandy.

I understand the query though, because it is one of those tunes that I feel I have 'always known' without being aware of it.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 09:48 AM

Sammy's Bar itself no longer exists. However, Paola square is still there (must pay the parking ticket one day) and so is Ghan Tuffieha bay. Given the driving habits of the Maltese crashes are inevitable especially on hairpin bends, straights, roundabouts, car parks etc.

As for the tune do a search and there is a click to play.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: breezy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:26 AM

send Cyril an e-mail and ask him.

I thought the two came together.

If you ever go to Malta , dont bother looking for the hair-pin bend.

Subject: Tune Req: Sammy's Bar
From: GUEST,SandyJ
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:41 AM

I have had a discussion (not yet coming to blows) with a friend about Cyril Tawney's 'Sammy's Bar'.

It has been suggested that the melody is much older than the lyrics. If so, can the collected wisdom of Mudcat confirm or repudiate and if applicable, unearth a name for the tune?

Many thanks.

SJ