BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse

Subject: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 12:58 PM

There's an extremely disturbing filmed report on the BBC website. I'm afraid that for those of us who have to struggle along without broadband, it takes a while to download, but well worth the effort. (Some people may have seen the report on BBC 2's flagship current affairs show, Newsnight.)

Once at the BBC website, click on any of the video links towards the bottom of the right-hand column, then enter "exorcisms" in the search box. The results you get include three for 24 and 25 February, which in fact all go to the same report. Maybe someone knows how to make a more direct link.

Among other things, the film reveals strong religious influences behind the wretched Victoria Climbie tragedy. I always knew Christians had to be gullible (as evidenced in the anti-christ thread, LOL), but the crap they are shown to believe here is terrifying.

Incidentally, the search for "exorcisms" also brings up a report I've not seen yet, about the Vatican running exorcism courses for priests. The mind boggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:12 PM

Surely they can arrest the 'pastor' shown beating up the ten year old child...but then what do they do with the congregation watching the abuse? Very disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

It's been going on the US for quite some years. Children beaten to "drive the devil out" or starved, or worse. When discovered child abuse charges, at the least, are filed.

"Suffer the little children..." did not mean that the kids should suffer. There must be a special place in Hell for these folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

And people wonder why I want to outlaw religion...

Intelligent people should know better...

Shit... ANIMALS know better...

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: nutty
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:16 PM

A special needs autistic child that I taught (20 years ago)underwent an exorcism at the request of his adopted parents.

I have always believed that the priest, and parents, in question should have been prosecuted.
The child was far worse after having undergone such an experience.

I'm appalled to think that this type of thing is still going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ifs_news/hi/newsid_4290000/newsid_4297200/nb_wm_4297251.stm?scope=nolavconsole&tab=nolavconsole&q=exorcisms&edition=ifs&mediaformat=nb_wm_&start=&order=

Direct link?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM

I rest my case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for that, Clinton, but your link just goes to a listings entry rather than the filmed report itself, unless it's just a restriction of my browser (Mozilla)?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

does this get to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:16 PM

no,it doesn't, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:37 PM

try this

it IS simply, superstition. And IF you accept that there are 'spirits' within people, then why not some evil ones? And IF you accept that, then doesn't make sense to try to get rid of them? It's all so easy when you are raised in a culture where almost every misfortune, illness or departure from the 'norm', is attributed to evil or spells.

We, my friends, are barely beginning to climb out of 35,000-50,000 years of having no other way to cope with the scary parts of life. As little as 100 years ago, almost everyone believed in ghosts, spirits, witchcraft, devils and various forms of charming, chanting, exorcizing and praying them to leave us alone.

The majority of us still have no idea what "critical thinking" consists of, or has the experience and training to engage in it....and it is HARD to teach and explain when it is far easier to swallow a simpler notion than to go thru the process of analysis, or just shrugging and allowing as how we don't HAVE an answer. That, I'm afraid, is a major part of it...we just can't abide a non-answer...we gotta name it, label it, categotize it and rate it...even if we have no real idea what we're talking about.

That's what happened to those poor kids who had the bad luck to have a condition or disease that confused their superstitious parents....and that 'simple' idea maimed or killed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:44 PM

" it IS simply, superstition"

STUPID-stition is more like it

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:09 PM

Thanks for the blicky, Bill D - that's the best yet. It goes to a page that has a direct link to the video, down right-hand side. The rest of your post is pretty much spot on, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

Nutty
No wonder the Autistic child was worse.

I have an autistic child and to do something like that would set her back so badly.

They need their f****** heads chopped off. The b*******


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

Any church (including the the Catholic church in Rome) who encourages people to believe in possession by evil spirits or the devil should be investigated thoroughly. Freedom of religion does not include the freedom to abuse children. Cultural freedom does not included the right to violate basic human rights, either. Its O.K. to preserve your religion, language and traditions as long as they do not conflict with the criminal law of your country of residence.

I am outraged that people would be so ignorant and to abuse their power to inflict pain and even death on innocent children.

Christians everywhere should be appalled and demand a change to these practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:21 PM

The Rite of Exorcism is a bit of an embarrassment to us liberal Catholics - and misuse of the ritual has been an embarrassment to the Catholic church in general. The directives state that the ritual may only be performed by specially-trained priests with specific permission from a bishop. The Catechism of the Catholic Church and other documents say that most so-called "demonic possessions" are actually psychological problems that should be handled by a psychiatrist - but the Catechism does allow for the possibility of some sort of possession and for the possibility of a ritual having a healing effect. I suppose there are renegade bishops who supervise renegade exorcists doing exorcisms in quantity, but the general rule is that exorcisms are rarely performed and that they are strictly controlled.

The general idea is that it's a serious matter that must be handled with extreme care and sensitivity. I suppose that's why the training is required.

I could find no official Roman Catholic doctrinal information about the topic of "demonic possession," and there is a fairly wide spectrum of Catholic thinking on the subject. Some conservatives stick to the idea of the Devil being a real person, but mainstream Catholic thinking tends to think of the Evil One as a metaphorical representation of the reality of evil. There are times when evil does seem to take on a personal aspect, especially in addictive situations where the addiction seems to be a personal power with control over somebody's life. Prayer does often seem to help give people the strength to overcome addition. And basically, that's what the rite of Exorcism is - a prayer. All the movie stuff you see is a web of superstition that has been added to the ritual. There was a time when Catholics performed exorcisms quite regularly, and a lot of that medieval superstition was embodied in the ritual - but that was before my lifetime.

When I was in the seminary in the 1960's, I was told that I'd probably never even meet somebody who had performed or witnessed or received an exorcism. I guess that means it was rare even then.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:49 PM

Joe, if you look at the film, you will see that even in this day and age, exorcism can involve a bit more than just prayer. But I should emphasise that the Catholic church had nothing to do with the frightful excesses you see there. For me, exorcism is a reminder of those "medieval superstitions" out of which Christianity was born, but I take your point that the Catholic church now takes a cautious and responsible approach. I certainly don't see that church as a prime offender on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:25 PM

Joe and other Christians -

My comments were not meant to bash Christians. Its just that if change is to happen within a religion, it is rarely effective if the pressure comes from outside of the religion. I always thought that exorcism was a Christian thing and should be dealt with by Christians who know it is wrong. I often see people who know they are witnessing wrong-doing, sitting by idly, looking the other way as if it has nothing to do with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:56 PM

Exactly, Diana.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 10:53 PM

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains a paragraph on exorcism. It reads as follows:
When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called *exorcism*. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.[176] In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called a "major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.[177]
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1673.)"

Sorry to paste it all here. Couldn't get the link to work.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM

And then there's thenew Keanu Reeves movie "Constantine." Better to spend the money on an extra pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

According to the BBC, an organisation called the Churches Child Protection Advisory Service - which I assume to be UK based - has just issued exorcism guidelines requiring that permission is obtained from parent and child; that the child should not be told he/she is possessed by demons or the Evil One, and that the child need not - and ideally should not - be present at the casting out.

For a four-minute audio report on this, click here and scroll down to the item headed "Child Protection."

All of which is OK as far as it goes. I still find it fascinating that educated people can put faith in such rituals.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 06:45 AM

Joe Offer wrote: "Some conservatives stick to the idea of the Devil being a real person, but mainstream Catholic thinking tends to think of the Evil One as a metaphorical representation of the reality of evil."

Whether a person or a state, evil was created by God- unless God did not create everything. And he meant to create it- God is omniscient so can't do anything by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 11:28 AM

OK, Paul, that's correct from one philosophical viewpoint. If evil is an entity and if all entities are created, then I suppose it would follow that evil may have been created by a Creator, or a demiurge.

What if the Creator gave potential and freedom and spontanaeity, and left it to us to use those tools? Could it be that evil is a byproduct of those, and not a direct creation? Would it have better if life involved following a script that was written for us by a Creator? I believe we write our own script for the drama that is our life, and I prefer it that way - despite the possibility of evil byproducts.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Terry K
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 03:59 AM

Or how about the converse -

"some conservatives stick to the idea of God being a real person, but more enlightened thinking tends to think of God as a metaphorical representation of the reality of goodness"

might be a small step towards the right track?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:43 AM

Joe:

It's not a matter of what you prefer. I also 'prefer' a universe in which we have some choice, for better or worse. But such a universe is incompatible with belief in an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful creator. Such a creator knows the outcome- in detail, in all cases- of every conceivable choice.

It's not just a matter of words- religious organisations, every one which has ever held real power, have been prepared to kill over this. I believe honesty with yourself demands that you decide which God you 'prefer'- the one who has those characteristics, or the one who comes across as a helpless kid, needing praise, prayers (presumably he hasn't known from the start how he was going to answer those prayers), and supporters against his sworn enemy. Or the third choice, learn to do without Big Daddy and a clean white gown when you die.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM

I'm sorry, but I guess I just don't buy the choices you've provided - and I guess all I can say is that I believe what I believe. I believe in a personal God who is the actual presence of the reality of goodness and love, not just a metaphor. I believe in a God who knows all, who created a universe with infinite potential and infinite freedom - you can't have infinite freedom if somebody has written a script for you to follow. I believe in an infinite God who cannot be fully explained, defined, or contained - but a God who became one of us in Jesus Christ. I believe that God can be known by experience, not by definition.

No, I don't believe in a Giant Script Writer in the Sky; or in an angry, spoiled-kid God who has to be appeased with praise and supplication, or in a God of the Rule Book that I have to accept word-for-word (or reject and be damned). I reject the God of the fundamentalists - and the God of the atheists (which is usually a twisted paraphrase of the fundamentalist view of God).

OK, this is what I believe. It works for me. Part of it comes from the tradition I was raised and educated in, and part of it comes from my own reflection. I have good training in Roman Catholic threology, and I can say my thinking more-or-less coincides with the thinking of many Catholic and "mainstream Christian" intellectuals. I do not seek to impose my view and experience of God on anyone - but neither do I expect to have someone else's definition of God imposed on me.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 12:12 PM

Joe, why do you call yourself a Catholic then? Because the Catholic Church certainly DOES seek to impose not just a definition of God, but a view of human behaviour that is designed to restrict the freedom of others- women and homosexuals, just to throw out a couple- to behave according to THEIR beliefs.

If you are Catholic mainstream, where does that leave Glemp and the Pope?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:05 PM

Well, Paul, I'm an American, too - and proud of it. There are many things that the Bush administration does that I disdain, but I'm not ready to abandon my country and leave it to the right-wingers.

I think the Catholic Church has improved in its policies toward homosexuals and women, but it has a long way to go. Most of my experiences in the Catholic Church have been positive, despite its many shortcomings. If I were to leave the Catholic Church to join (or start another), I would leave behind a lifetime of good for the sake of a few shortcomings. I would also leave behind the opportunity to reform the Church from within - because it will never be reformed by outside forces.

If something is unsatisfactory to me, I have three choices: Leave it, put up with it, or change it. I think it's foolhardy to believe that I can leave the Catholic Church's shortcomings and start or join another church that has no shortcomings. I prefer to fix what's broken rather than simply leave it all behind.

I do not believe that the backward thinking about women and homosexuals is a central and unchangeable factor of the Catholic faith. These attitudes have changed greatly during my lifetime, and they will continue to change as long as there are Catholics willing to work toward the accomplishment of those changes.

As for Glemp and the Pope, they are products of their generation. Much that came from their generation was good, and much was not - I suppose the same will be said of our generation. But they're old men now. They may still be in charge, but they are no longer part of the "mainstream." Not so very long ago, all of Western society had attitudes that were unfavorable to women and homosexuals, and those attitudes are still very strong in many parts of the world. It takes times to change minds and hearts.

Notice what I said above: I can say my thinking more-or-less coincides with the thinking of many Catholic and "mainstream Christian" intellectuals. I chose those words carefully. Certainly, there are many Catholics and some Catholic leaders who do not or cannot view their faith from an intellectual point of view. I think that's true of every society or community.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,the wise old Owl
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 02:01 PM

This thread is quite the hoooooooooooooot!

At least 90% of human beings today are unwittingly beset by at least one manipulative, sickening, energy-draining unseen parasite. Most are totally ignorant of their role as host. And even if they learn better, most remain unwilling to accept the truth of their condition. So they live out their lives suffering addictions, abuse (inflicted on self or others ie the "child exorcisms" discussed here), physical disease, various neuroses and psychoses etc etc ad nauseum.

Most people accept misery, violence, ill health etc as the normal human condition. Well, don't look now but it isn't!   And people who refuse to accept the truth and learn how to clear themselves of unseen, unhealthy influences risk becoming one themselves after they "drop their shells".

That's why there's such a glut of these things about today. To paraphrase Milton's Paradise Lost, millions of creatures walk this earth unseen.

He wasn't kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:58 PM

Of course there are demons. There is one curled up by my feet now. She's tabby striped, has a long tail, great big paws, and tufts on her ears. She wakes me up in the early hours of the morning, to get me to throw her catnip mousie for her.

Right, having a child with a dysfunctional brain is a horrible disappointment, a source of non stop frustration. Parents seek remedies. Some parents seek quack remedies, like exorcism. If that exorcism consists, as it can, of prayer, and laying on of hands, it's not terrribly harmful. Re birthing, a pseudo scientific therapy for attachment disorder has killed children, and when not fatal, seems to work as well as exorcism.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:34 AM

The Lakotah Sioux and the Ojibway peoples consider this to be a "demon". After all,
it hunts at night, has a spooky call, sees in the dark - what else could it be but evil, a harbinger of death?

IN other cultures, owls were thought to bring wisdom and healing, to be the keeper of the dreamtime, of vision and prophecy. But even then, associated as it was with women and the moon and known as "the cat with wings", Owl still inspired fear in the hearts of vulnerable little men. What you see is what you get, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

"the wise old Owl": "At least 90% of human beings today are unwittingly beset by at least one manipulative, sickening, energy-draining unseen parasite. Most are totally ignorant of their role as host."

This is true only in the sense that most people have their minds populated by ideas- call them memes if you like Richard Dawkins- that tend towards their unhappiness and that of others around them. Much religion is of this kind, as are many political creeds.

There are other memes that can make others unhappy while the host of the meme is himself happy. We call these people psychopaths. Think of the Christian Brothers.

There are other memes that make the host unhappy, while increasing the wellbeing of those around them. Some religious and political ideas fall into this category- those who dedicate their lives to others, often hoping that the reward for their own unhappiness will come in another life.

And yet others that are potentially totally constructive for all. We should seek out this last sort, but they are going to be hard to find, simply because memes, like genes, exist not alone but in an ecology both in the individual, and in their interactions with society. In the short term, even the most benign meme will rattle someone's cage, and be opposed by (real or perceived) vested interests.

So Joe- agree with you more than you might think, but hope you can see the difference between YOUR ideas and the party line. My Mum could, in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:50 AM

Perhaps new faith based initiatives will make child exorcisms affordable for the poor. IF things go much further we may need a Constitutional amendment to protect Godfearing Christians from courts who try to punish people for their religious beliefs.

God knows the George Bush administration has been trying to get rid of the 200 year practice of judicial oversite for every imaginable sin they commit and every constitutional right they "bend".

A more direct route is to appoint judges who will do as they are told.
When this Republican Christian Congress pulls the nuclear trigger (by abolishing filibuster and other house rule changes) they will finally be free of the judicial branch interferring with thier plans for freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 01:23 PM

There is a phenomenon that calls itself religion, that feeds hysteria - and also feeds on it. That's not what religion is to me. In fact, it's the very opposite of what I think religion should be. Nonetheless, to my dismay, it exists. And it gives religion a bad name.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:52 AM

Joe, you say the Catholic church must be reformed from within as it cannot be reformed from the outside. That's rubbish. If it had been left to the church, it would still be adding to its riches by raking in cash in exchange for salvation (which anyone with a Christian take on Good and Evil would have to renounce as sheer wickedness); it would still be persecuting those who thought Galileo had a point; it would still be burning books rather than allowing knowledge into the hands of the untutored masses, and it would still be harbouring from justice those who entered the priesthood specifically because it offered them easy opportunities to indulge their depraved obsessions with children.

Some of the reforms have been forced on the church by serious, thinking catholics - Luther and Henry VIII among them - but they could not have done it by staying within the tyrannical authority of the church. If the many thousands of you who have issue with your own church are serious about putting right some of the wrongs done in the name of that church, you would as a minimum stop supporting it and walk away. You can't have your cake and eat it. Hanging in because of some "tradition" in your upbringing sounds a bit feeble as a basis for hanging in.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

I think Luther was thrown out; he didn't start out with the intention of walking away. Henry VIII as a "serious thinking Catholic" who reformed the Catholic church? What history have you been reading?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM

This is all getting far removed from the subject of the thread, albeit that the diversion is partly of my own making. I'm happy to deal with frogprince's point, and trust that anyone else looking in will tolerate a bit more drift.

Luther was a devout Augustinian who had the courage to confront his own, then murderous, church to the point that he was excommunicated. (Or in effect damned, as the church would have believed.) This was given effect by the Edict of Worms, after Luther had refused to renounce his works, allegedly declaring: "Here I stand. I can do no other." Well he did do a bit more than that. He led millions of Christians out of the clutches of a corrupt church, and was instrumental in bringing to an end the selling of indulgences.

Henry VIII studied theology and not kingship before succeeding to the throne. Hie elder brother Arthur had been the heir, but died before his father. Early in his reign Henry VIII wrote a treatise denouncing Luther's reformist programme, and for this the pope accorded him the title "Defender of the Faith." Later he sought annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, believing the reason she had not produced a male heir was that God frowned on the fact that he had married his brother's widow.

Who knows how things might have turned out if the pope had allowed that annulment? But he could do no such thing, because the pope took his orders from none other than Catherine's nephew - the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V. (In fact at one stage the pope was imprisoned by the emperor, or have I muddled my popes and emperors?)

The scores of statutes passed by Henry's parliament - each making some slight alteration to religious ritual - may well have given strength to Catholicism's counter-reformation movement, and maybe it was that kind of reaction that Joe had in mind when he was dismissive of pressures from outside the church. But looking at the broader picture, it is surely beyond argument that Catholic authority was seriously weakened by so great a split.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: poetlady
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:23 AM

If you believe in traditional Christianity, you need, necessarily, to believe in spirits, both good and bad. The church I grew up in believed in these things, and exorcisms, as well.

The way I was taught exorcisms were practiced was simply through prayer. I was taught that all you had to do was command it in the name of Christ, and an evil spirit had to obey that. There's a scriptural basis for that.

However, I see children as essentially innocent and I can't imagine believing a child to be possessed by a demon. These people are obviously not mentally well, and did a very evil thing, but I don't think it's fair to blame it on the Christian faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:27 AM

I teach in a school with over 400 students aged 5- 13.

I can think of a few kids that should be exorcised!

Do you think it might replace the strap?

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:35 AM

poetlady:

" ..I see children as essentially innocent .."

Orthodox Christianity doesn't though. Look up 'original sin'. This is why, if you go to Ireland, you will sometimes see small uncultivated patches in the fields, usually a short distance away from a settlement. These 'killeens' were cemeteries where unbaptised children were buried, being denied the use of consecrated ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

"I don't think it's fair to blame it on the Christian faith"

I think it's MORE than fair

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 12:51 PM

"At least 90% of human beings today are unwittingly beset by at least one manipulative, sickening, energy-draining unseen parasite. Most are totally ignorant of their role as host. And even if they learn better, most remain unwilling to accept the truth of their condition"

And Guest - You're the one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind ??

You've got your work cut out for you. I hope you don't get tired easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:20 AM

Where did I hear this?

Its O.K. to feel sadness but it is a sin to dwell in despair. To dwell in despair is to court demons. They hover around and feed on negative energy just waiting for the moment to overtake your soul.

I always associated demons with despair and depression.

I'm not a Christian but I do recognize that some people seem unable to shake depression. Maybe this is where exhorcism started. The ever ready priest could cure your spirit.

Seems a bit dated to me.

Nowadays the message seems to be that nobody has the power to change your life but you - by your own determination with maybe some help from the pharmacy and a therapist.

I don't know what the answer is but I doubt if children are to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM

I have a sense that in a state of despair and deporession it might actually help to be able to step back from feeling you are responsible and you are supposed to be in control. That's the kind of situation in which having a trusted outsider calling the shots might in fact help, and that's what some kind of exorcism could fit in.

Not that perverted stuff that set this thread going in the first place, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Child exorcisms: legalised child abuse
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 07:29 PM

I never was involved in exorcism, or in any way trying to beat or harrass the "devil" out of children, but: as a Bible institute student, "in another lifetime, full of toil and blood," I was regularly assigned to go out and teach little kids that they were sinners, deserving of eternal punishment, with no hope except to "get saved". I have few real regrets, but that's one of them. I now consider that a form of legal psychological abuse of children