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BS: UK closer to 'police state'

akenaton 28 Feb 05 - 09:15 PM
Barry Finn 28 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 05 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Fred..., but that's not important 01 Mar 05 - 11:13 AM
akenaton 01 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM
MuddleC 01 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM
Shanghaiceltic 01 Mar 05 - 06:28 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 05 - 06:54 PM
The Shambles 01 Mar 05 - 07:00 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 05 - 07:14 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 05 - 03:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Mar 05 - 03:54 AM
Lanfranc 02 Mar 05 - 04:15 AM
Davetnova 02 Mar 05 - 04:46 AM
Folkiedave 02 Mar 05 - 04:52 AM
The Shambles 02 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM
The Shambles 02 Mar 05 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 05 - 06:09 AM
Fibula Mattock 02 Mar 05 - 06:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 05 - 07:11 AM
GUEST 02 Mar 05 - 08:08 AM
GUEST 02 Mar 05 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Redhorse at work 02 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 05 - 09:31 AM
akenaton 02 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 02 Mar 05 - 03:52 PM
EagleWing 03 Mar 05 - 06:51 AM
EagleWing 03 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM
EagleWing 03 Mar 05 - 06:58 AM
EagleWing 03 Mar 05 - 07:03 AM
Piers 03 Mar 05 - 07:25 AM
Blissfully Ignorant 03 Mar 05 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 05 - 01:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 05 - 05:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 05 - 05:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 05 - 01:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Mar 05 - 03:34 AM
Wrinkles 07 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Mar 05 - 03:33 PM
akenaton 07 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 05 - 06:47 PM

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Subject: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:15 PM

Uk moved even closerto a police state yesterday when Blairs' home sec, Charles Clarke, pushed through new "anti- terror" laws in the House of Commons.

These laws , reminiscent of the discredited "internment without trial" in Northern Ireland, mean that people suspected of terrorism can be tagged, subjected to "control orders",or placed under "house arrest".   All without any required proof of guilt, or access to charges.

These laws are completely at odds with the UK justice system, and the human rights commission.
They will undoubtedly be used in the future by UK politicians to stifle protest of any kind , either against foreign warmongering ,or domestic manipulation.

Only fools can still believe that we stand for democracy, the illusion is fading by the day...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM

Sorry, it had to be you. Been there & still doing that. Now, welcome to the International Association of Humans Without Rights. Here in the US we can lay claim to starting this up as a world club & not just merely a simple neighborhooded back street gangbanger's garden version of an under organized national crime syndicate. Please, we are far more sophisticated than one would think. We still play that same illusion & it's still tops the charts, go figure.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM

Trouble is, our system requires very convincing evidence to make a conviction.
Many real criminals are not brought to trials by CPS and we accept the additional robberies and even murders as a necessary price to pay.
It may be impossible to convict someone of planning a crime in the future.

But the future crime is random mass murder. An entirely new threat that our system does not deal with.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:00 AM

"Conspiracy" is a very large umbrella, Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM

The UK has fast been becoming a "Nanny State" for years. Now you reap what you sow when they can implent laws that completely ignore human rights. I suggest a return to being bulldogs instead of poodles. Fight back for a change...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST,Fred..., but that's not important
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:13 AM

The ERA.

That would be an interesting concept!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

So Keith...You contend that "democracy" is over?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

Let's put it this way. Imagine you are subject to a "control order".

You are not allowed to know what you are accused of, nor what evidence there may be against you, nor may you choose your own lawyer.

Can this possibly be right? While the things you may be suffering may not be as bad as those suffered in Guantanamo bay, the fact that not only are you not presumed innocent until proven guilty but, worse, you are denied the very basics of being able to prove that you are innocent is pretty similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: MuddleC
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

dear guest,
fight back with what exactly?
we don't have 'the right to bear arms' and pitch forks aren't easy to come by nowadays... perhaps the 'criminals' can lend us some guns for the day..........


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM

Try some letters to politicians and newspapers showing you do not support such legislation. If enough of you can stop watching football and Coronation street long enough. Or you could continue the age old tradition of bitching at the local pub and letting them do as they please with your country.... There are many ways to fight without sharp weapons or guns; try a pen first, and votes second.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:28 PM

On the bright side, those people under house arrest will be able to claim lower house insurance premiums as there will always be someone at home ;-)

I do find it disturbing though that powers could be handed over to the police not the courts to hold someone under house arrest. It is a power that can be easily abused.

In countries like Malaysia and Singpore, both democracies (in their way), have the National Security Law which can hold someone under hosue arrest indefinately or in prison indefinately without trial. It has been used by polcitians of those countries to silence opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:54 PM

They did it in Ireland for long enough. It will be interesting to see the reaction here in Blighty, if the shoe is put on the other foot.

Be safe everyone


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:00 PM

My (Labour MP) conducted a survey on ID cards. 1303 were in favour and 199 were not.

He sums up his letter.

Weighing up your responses and the argument on both side I decided to support this measure. We need to carefully monitor cost and effectiveness. I agree with those who say it won't stop all the determined criminals and terrorists. But it will help stop some crime and it will make it easier to find those that abuse our immigration and asylum laws. On that basis I hope that you will join me in supporting the introduction of ID cards.

I have decided to inform him and the local party - that if I wished to support Tory policies I would have voted for the Tories... As I would appear to have done the last time that I voted for him.... I will not make the same mistake again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:14 PM

I am also alarmed about ID cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." -- Ayn Rand- The Nature of Government'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:04 AM

Ake,
Democracy is not over, just under threat.
Our legal system, balanced as it is to give the benefit of any doubt to the accused, will not be able to convict very often for conspiracy.
Some tightening is necessary because of the entirely new circumstances.
Democratic pressures have led the Tories to agree to the proposed measures.
Remember, there really are people who want to slaughter your loved ones, and are happy to die doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:54 AM

Lot of strange rhetoric going on here.

The darkest period of our history..... My parents grew up on streets where evry single house had someone die of TB, where the major newspapers thought maybe Hitler and Mussolini had about the right idea, if you were born in the forties it was more or less taken for granted that at some time you would have to go and fight in a war as your dad and grandad had to....and as for non conformity reading a poetry book on the bus would have been regarded as a certain sign of being a homosexual, which was illegal.

Politicians have to be watched vigilantly. And as guest says organise, promote your views and fight within the democratic system, but lets leave hysteria to the ones who need recruits to fly planes into buildings.

It always seems strange to me that there is all this hysterical name calling of politicians on Mudcat. Yet there is never a concrete suggestion for forming some sort of liberal coalition. If you're not sure how its done , check out Woody Guthrie's talking Union Blues, there is a very full description of how to go about it. always the classics have the answer.

Howls of rage are all very well if you really are disenfranchised, but you're not . Are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Lanfranc
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:15 AM

We have faced threats before, the IRA for example, but without forfeiting our democratic freedoms (in mainland Britain, at least). NI was different, with two armed bunches of criminal thugs facing each other across the sectarian divide.

We haven't (yet) got to that stage, and your average white Christian or whatever is not the target (again, yet). But if you're a Muslim or of dusky hue - be afraid, be very afraid!

Thin edge of wedge dept.

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Davetnova
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:46 AM

And not only a police state but racist. The papers today have a labour minister telling us that anyone of an islamic appearance will just have to accept that they will be stopped and searched in disproportionate numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:52 AM

Trouble is, our system requires very convincing evidence to make a conviction

Try telling that to the Irish people who served long prison sentences whilst completely innocent, or the people who have been wrongly convicted of murder.

We can in fact convict people on the flimsiest of evidence - when the police, ths state or in Christie's case the real murderer want to convict them and are prepared to lie, cheat and withhold evidence.

I don't trust the judges much but I trust the state even less.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

"The Home Office practice now is to bring forward new legislation which is absolutely abhorrent and totally disgraceful in its abuse of civil liberties and then, when there is uproar, relace it with something only slightly less abhorrent and tell us a major concession has been made. The concession being made should provide this House with no comfort". Baroness Kennedy, Labour, human rights barrister.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:02 AM

Muslims can expect more 'stop and search'.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1428402,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:09 AM

Lanfranc,
Irish terrorism always sought to minimise casualties and give warnings of bombings.
Also they, like criminals were deterred by the likelyhood of being prosecuted after the event, with unlimited time to investigate, and the benefit of evidence from the scene and their movements to and from the scene.
None of this applies to the new terrorists who expect to die with their victims.
Folkiedave, if the authorities could get away with falsifying evidence, they would not need the new powers.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:30 AM


Irish terrorism always sought to minimise casualties and give warnings of bombings.

wtf...? Tell that to anyone who's lost someone just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. On either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:11 AM

Sorry Fibula. you are right of course. My partner's daughter was slightly hurt and deeply affected by the Manchester bomb.
Undeniably, the IRA were careless and reckless for the lives of ordinary people. Shame on them.
Still, the Islamic terrorists are different in that they seek as many random deaths as possible, and never even try to give a warning.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:08 AM

"your average white Christian or whatever is not the target"

tell that to the victims of 9 11 and 3 11

Some of you have your heads firmly up your arses.... or at least buried firmly in the sand
Either way, you'll never miss the water till the Thames runs dry


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:13 AM

Society is complex.
There's problems. There's solutions. Then there's safeguards, so the solutions don't become problems.
Sine the rise of international terrorism etc., we've got new problems. This law is a new solution.
Now we need a new safegusrd.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

It's not a new solution, it's an old one. No different to South Africa's "banning orders" and the same justification from the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:31 AM

No, that was an undemocratic state with an oppressed majority denied the vote on racial grounds.
Our ministers lose their job if they lose the consent of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

Personally, I'm more afraid of the machinations of our leaders, than the thought of an attack by Osama or Al Zarkawi.

The threat of terrorism was created to a large extent by this goverment by the Iraq debachle, and is now being used as a scare tactic to push through anti human rights legislation, which will be used by future governments to increase their power over the "underclass".
The big conflict in the future will be the haves against the have-nots, and ever action taken by Blair and his accomplices should be scrutinised carefully.

As has been said many times before, If the Musim fundamentalists wished to attack Britain, either physically or through our economic institutions, no amount of phony legislation would stop them.

Neither ID cards or control orders would make any difference at all, the measures are intended for control of you and I ...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Islamic terrorism is a reality and goes back to the early 90's and the first attempt on the WTC, continuing with the embassy bombings, Bali and so on.
Does anyone think it would have stopped but for Iraq?
There really were training camps in Afghanistan. At least they are no longer churning out infidel killers.
What ever you think of politicians, they do not seek an opportunity to slaughter your children. There really are people out there who would.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:52 PM

What Afghanistan is churning out *now*,will kill more of our children than the fundamentalists will!!

Herion production has rocketed since the fall of the Taliban.
The trail to the West leads through the home of one of our supposed allies, undemocratic Pakistan, until it ends up in the hands of our "democratic" drug barons.


If the West was not intent on spreading our idea of democracy, and the worthless culture that goes with it, Muslim fundamentalism would not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:51 AM

They did it in Ireland for long enough.

Yup - it didn't work then and it won't work now.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:55 AM

Democratic pressures have led the Tories to agree to the proposed measures.

Actually, they are tory measures that were opposed by the Labour party when it was in opposition.

Since we no longer have a labour party, it is not surprising to see the pink tories putting forward blue tory policies.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:58 AM

Howls of rage are all very well if you really are disenfranchised, but you're not . Are you?

You are if you support any party other than the two tory ones.

Our system of voting (first past the post) disenfranchises all other parties.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:03 AM

"And not only a police state but racist. The papers today have a labour minister telling us that anyone of an islamic appearance will just have to accept that they will be stopped and searched in disproportionate numbers."

Is that really racist? The major threats of international terrorism at the moment seem to be coming from Islamic groups. Are you suggesting that other groups should be stopped and searched just to even things up? The MP, whoever he was, was surely being realistic.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Piers
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:25 AM

"What ever you think of politicians, they do not seek an opportunity to slaughter your children."

Keep repeating: What the enemy do is evil, what we do is not. Four legs good, two legs bad. Baaaaaa!

Whether it's bombs from planes or bombs under cars, the politicians behind them are pursuing the material interest of the class they represent. In this case Bush and Blair on behalf of the western industrial capitalists, Osama bin Laden on behalf of feudal middle eastern oil barons. The Western powers have a long history of slaughtering children, I saw them on TV during the Iraq invasion. To the military of either side slaughtering children is a by product of achieving a political goal, ultimately that is expanding or maintaining the privileged position of a minority of either society.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:43 PM

He who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security....who was it that said that? He was right, anyway...

No, none of this totalitarian bullshit will do anything to stop terrorism. In fact, it may be something of an encouragement...shows it's working, doesn't it? Show's we're all good and scared. Yes, it's being introduced in the interests of population control. Why? Who knows. It's the endless pursuit of power....sane folks like us will never understand it...and no, a large proportion of the population don't give two flying f**ks, because they're too busy watching TV and whinging about irrelevances...and anyway, it's not nice white folks like them who're going to be locked up, is it? Not yet, anyway...

A lot of new legislation, from anti-terrorism to child protection, reads like an Orwellian nightmare. See for yourself...but don't expect to be able to do anything about it. I think it's a little late for that...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 01:57 PM

Piers and Akeneaton,
Suppose we agree on how we got here.
The here and now is that my sons, who commute by train to london, are vulnerable to an attack like the train bombs in Milan just before that election.
I hate the idea of internment without trial, and remember that it was counterproductive in NI, but I accept that it has to be done.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:23 PM

Before this thread dies, non UK readers should know this.
This came about because foreign nationals known to the security forces were being held without trial.
This was held to be legal because they were free to leave the country at any time if they chose to.
They did not choose to go because the only countries that would accept them were the ones where they were wanted for terrorist crimes.
Britain will not extradite to countries (including US) where criminals may face death penalty or torture.
Our judiciary (not politicians) ruled this unlawful and the government would have had to release them.
Hardly a police state!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM

Oh yes, and the reason it was ruled unlawful to hold foreign nationals in prison with a right to ask at any time to be put on a plane to anywhere, was because it discriminated against foreign nationals.
The government had to either release dangerous people, or extend the power of house arrest to British nationals.

Again, hardly a police state.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:58 PM

So, Keith, why do we trust the authorities correctly to judge (behind closed doors and without trial) whether someone is a dangerous Islamist, but not the Islamic religious leaders not to decide (behind closed doors and without trail) whether someone has committed an offence against Islam?

Is it simply that religious leaders are more likely to be bad or mad than allegedly non-religious ones, and if so why are we not more worrried about the god-bothering tendencies of the Shrub and Mr B. Liar?

Or should we consider that those who serve capitalism (like those who serve the beliefs usually called religions) may contribute to the reactions against those belief systems?

Some decisions of the Human Rights industry seem pretty potty, but a lot of them seem to be more sense than trusting politicians. What the government(s) are trying to do is to find a way to outflank the rule of law. That is unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:55 PM

Richard, I would hate to be wrongly thought to be a terrorist by our security forces. Hopefully my friends would campaign for me and my legal aid lawyers would work for my release from my home.
I would be in a state of terror if accused of being a threat to Islam.
Those guys take no prisoners


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM

well no, you're still not disenfrachised.

Sometimes it seems like that. The Miners. the catholics in Northern Ireland.

You have all the things they would love to have in more repressive regimes.

I think you would be surprised if you started your liberal alliance how many people would join, and how soon you would be taken note of.

there ia a lot of discontent at the moment. Personally speaking I saw too much of Thatcher and her works to want to risk weakening Blair who seems clearly to me the best available in an imperfect world.

however you do have the choice to do something or do nowt


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:34 AM

So, Keith, that's "our bad guys are nicer than their bad guys", is it?. I can see how that might be thought to be prejudging the issue.

I suppose some sort of protective mechanism is necessary. The issue is "What sort"? But I am really quite keen to preserve the distinction between the executive and the judiciary.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Wrinkles
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM

The new law also defines Animal Rights and Pro-Life activists as Terrorists, so it's not just aimed at islamic suicide bombers but anyone known to oppose the status quo. All the police have to do is claim they suspect the protester is planing an illegal activity to get an order slapped on them.

As to the Irish terrorists always giving warning and not going for as many random casualties as possible; two words; Enniskillin and Omah.
No-warning bombs, placed in localites that would only harm random civilians, have been a feature of the NI Troubles since the 70s.

Wrinkles


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM

Wrinkles, I think that you are right about Enniskillen.
There was a warning of the Omah blast, but it was so inaccurate and misleading that police shepherded people towards the device.
I guess that it was thought inflamatory to single out Islamic terror, but it has to be a threat of terror, not just an illegal activity.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:33 PM

Well, The House of Lords has today done a great deal to justify unelected politicians. Since they don't have to rely on Tony's patronage any more, they can stand up on matters of principle. Nice to see Derry Irvine going into the not content lobby too.

Two to one!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

Keith ....The problem is ,how will they define "terror".

You obviously see the G8 protesters as terrorists.
What about animal cruelty? Genetically modified food? Pro hunting protesters? Anti hunting protesters? Greenpeace? Friends of the Earth

In fact anyone who believes in taking direct action can be labelled a terrorist.

"Democracy" is a wonderful thing so long the people have no chance of influencing government.

When we get uppity and make the bastards squeal thats when the trouble starts
From your posts it seems that a more authoritarian regime will suit you just fine , never mind the lies, the illegal war, the high level corruption, the drug problems, privatisation disasters,ect ect.

Gods in his heaven and alls well with Keith.
Your faith in politicians would be endearing, if it wasn,t so pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK closer to 'police state'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:47 PM

But when direct action involves the digging up of the corpse of the mother of the man you're protesting about the lines become blurred surely?


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