Bodhran

Subject: Bodhran
From: Torctgyd
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:35 AM

I'd always assumed that the Bodhran, the Irish folk drum of choice, was an ancient Irish instrument but I infered from a post elsewhere on here that it is infact a recent arrival. If so where did it come from and where? Or is it a modern Irish invention?

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:42 AM

Drums such as this have been knocking around for yonks in most cultures, ever since they were used for the hand-winnowing of grain. The dispute, or joshing, which often arrives with this topic lies the antiquity(?) of the name. Obviously, being in Irish, it sounds kind of ancient, but it seems that this kind of drum was called a tambourine(as it was in England, with or without jingles) till quite recently. Bodhran, both name and the common use of the instrument) came in with the folk revival/Chieftains etc, post 1950, and has since become extremely popular, especially when adorned with Celtic knotwork stuff.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

as I understand it - the bodhran is quite recent to Irish music - but the instrument - under various names and incarnations is ancient.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:04 PM

Somewhere I saw a picture of Irish musicians in a parade, and one of them had a bodhran. It was from the 1940's.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:20 PM

It was probably one of the first drums in human history....you looking to blame it on the Irish!!!???

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:35 PM

The subject has been discussed here, at great length, in the past. What did the percussionist in that 1940s photo call the drum he was carrying? "Tambourine", I'd bet; unless the picture was taken in Ulster and it was a Lambeg drum.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: gnu
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

If you do a forum search, you will find this is discussed in more detail than you may care to read.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM

The instrument was not unknown prior to the 1940s, but it was rare as a purely music instrument. It was used at Christmastime by wrenboys and mummers--sort of a combination of musical and ritual use.

It was absorbed as a common instrument among ordinary musicians after the 1950s, when Sean O Riada decided that it and the bones would be the ideal percussion instruments for Irish music. You can find out more abour O Riada's ideas by reading his book(let) "Our Musical Heritage."

As such, it is more or less a revival phenomenon with limited connection to more traditional forms of the music.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Can anyone point to the original thread about bodhrans as I find this subject very interesting? Peter Kennedy claims that he introduced the Bodhran into Ireland, and knowing Peter, it may well be true. If I am correct, most recordings of Irish traditional music up to the 1960s do not have a bodhran, which seems to reinforce the theory. On the other hand, Peter K made several recordings of village musicians in the south of England in the 50s playing melodeon and drum, with the drum being a riddle type and being hit in a very rhythmic manner, sometime with the knuckles but not with a beater. I have also come across English trad musicians playing a tambourine in a similar way. Danny Stradling (wife of Rod) plays tambourine in the old English style.

I am also tempted by the theory (mine) that the old English way of playing a mouth organ and a tambourine at the same time, as Martin Brimsford of Brass Monkey does, is a relic of the pipe and tabor playing - or it may just be coincidence.

Anyway, I would be interested to know whether anyone has done any real research on English/Irish traditional percussion and the links. There's a challenge for someone.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

Related (hopefully not thread creep, or covered elsewhere): What about bones? I know 19th century minstrelsy used bones. Was it introduced to Irish / British music from that source? 19th / 20th century American string bands used bones as well. Did this come from commericial minstrelsy or is there a folk antecedent?

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM

the song

making

chieftains and

questions

guitars and

tips

bodrhan


among others (2666 messages contain the word bodrhan enough to trigger the search facility)

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM

Bodhrans, played my modhrans, mostly.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Thomas Hardy describes the Dorset playing method well...I'm afraid I dont have the reference to hand. He called it a tambourine, of course.
    The Irish, as the English, were surely influenced by the minstrel troupes. They had a tambourine and a bones player sitting down stage at each side of the group, doing the cross talk acts, and playing accompaniments for the banjo and fiddlers.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 03:01 AM

The concertina player Scan Tester was often accompanied by a tambourine player called Rabiddy Baxter and there is a recording of them together on Boscastle Breakdown I believe. The sleeve notes mentioned that the gypsies in the nearby Ashdown Forest had a tradition of playing mouth-organ and tambourine together.

Wasn't the minstrel style of tabourine playing more like the Salvation Army style?

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,Paul McAuley Bodhrans
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:34 AM

I am a maker of professional Tuneable Bodhrans and if played correctly it adds a very suttle and interesting backing to any traditional group. I sell my drums mainly to Germany, Italy and UK as well as Ireland. see my web page: www.irishbodhrans.com

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:23 AM

Did these English tambourines all have jingles? I always think of tambourines having jingles, though bodhrans obviously do not...

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

So...where did the name come from? It's unusual for a brand new word to be given to something recent. Was the word used in the past? For what? What does it actually mean?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:30 AM

One theory derives it from the word for 'thunder' and another says it means a deaf person!

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: open mike
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:10 AM

and what did the star of the county down
come down? a Bodhran green? borine green?
boring green?

It was near Banbridge town...in July

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:11 AM

A boreen. A cattle track.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: gnu
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:20 AM

Modhrans... hehehe... good one.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:33 AM

Don't laugh, but I think a well played bodhran can sound rather exciting in the right place.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: gnu
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:50 AM

Wait for it............

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:54 AM

No really!

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:56 AM

Mike,

Short answer: a path or lane.

Long answer (which you didn't ask for, but it's a neat scenic tour):

Ancient Ireland was a pastoral culture. Life, livelihood, law, and a certain chunk of the language, revolved around the cow (bó).

To this day, bóthar is the generic Irish word for "road". It is a worn-down version of the phrase bó thar bhó ("cow passing cow," which was considered the proper width for a road to be.)

Bóithrín is simply the diminutive form of bóthar.

;)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:05 AM

Drums such as this have been knocking around for yonks in most cultures

Right; if referring to that design of percussion instrument in general (as opposed to culture-specific), it's usually called a "frame drum."

There's a Middle Eastern version. Westerners don't see it trotted out nearly as often as the doumbek; but there are styles of Middle Eastern dance which specifically call for the dancer to be playing such a drum.   Only with their hand, though, not with a tipper, beater, or any other kind of drumstick.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Kaleea
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

Whenever I have my Bodhran around Musician folk from other cultures, they always want to see it, play it, & often experiment with the tuning mechanism. Since it's an Albert Alfonzo with a hairy skin, some folks like to pet it, too.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

The eastern one is called a daff(by the Kurds anyway). One of a huge number of words (bodhran has already mean mentioned) in which words for drum in one language are connected with words meaning deaf(either in the same language, or in other related languages). You can have remarkable fun looking up all the drum words you can find in various languages, and then finding out as many words for "deaf" as you can. And cross check the lists. Of course, the correspondences may be all coincidences, but it makes you think.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:30 PM

In Xinjiang a province that borders Pakistan, Kazakhstan and Russia the Uigar's (who have a Turkic based language) regularly use a frame drum with little bells around the edges.

It is held in front of the body and played with the tips of the fingers and shaken at the same time.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 05:59 PM

The eastern one is called a daff (by the Kurds anyway).

Hm. :D

Daf, def, tef, tof all seem like pretty common names for the same basic frame-drum in the Middle East (with daf being the most "generic" and widespread version of the name.)

Worth checking out:

Frame Drums: A History

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:35 AM

I played my goatskin bodhrán with a tipper for a kids' school show in a Native village in Alaska. Then they went and got a couple of native frame drums made with sealskin which they played with their hands. Pretty much the same sound and effect, and as a bonus, we drove the teachers crazy!

Seamus

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:53 AM

Good for you Seamus, it's really only natural that you did. Given the drums history & world wide cutural use.
Barry

Subject: RE: Bodhrán
From: Windsinger
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 01:22 PM

Seamus Kennedy

O RLY?

(Is this The Man, or Just A Fan?)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 02:15 PM

It's the man himself.
You can tell by the smell of confidence that he exudes.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 02:39 PM

Skivee: If that's true, it's the coolest goddamned thing I've heard all day. :)

Seamus: I keep going to "Piece of Ireland" (DE) and the Celtic Classic (PA), but am continually "just" missing you...

Bugger.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: MMario
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 02:45 PM

First Sunday in March he will be on 'Bound For Glory' - Ithaca, NY.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

Upstate, right? Sigh...sounds like I'll miss him again.

If I knew when he was next going to play at "Piece of Ireland," I could schedule that visit along with a trip to see my family...

Seamus, should I PM you, or just call Joe?

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 16 Feb 06 - 10:40 PM

He's a great guy, and can play lightning fast, but tastefully.
He's well worth a trip to see.
Don't tell him he's getting complimented. He'll get all blushy.

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 01:04 AM

Windsinger, PM me here at the Cat, and I'll give you a link to my schedule.
Skivee - tastefully? Moi?
That's a first!
An addendum to the bodhrán in the Alaskan native village story.... the kids asked what kind of skin my bodhrán was made of an I said 'Goat."
They asked me "What's a goat?"
Lots of seals, walruses (walri?) musk-oxen, caribou, but not a helluva lot of goats up that way.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Bodhran
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM

Thanks Seamus, I'll do that. :)

Open Mike: you know, when the question came up of the difference between bodhrán and bóithrín (or "boreen" if you will) it got me thinking of a possible alternate theory to where the drum's name might come from. Just because, well, an Irish word containing bo strongly hints at a connection to cows---even a distant one.

In this case, say, maybe an early form of the drum used a cow-hide head instead of goatskin?

(Just a thought, to throw alongside the other two "accepted" origins.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir