Singaround etiquette

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: kendall
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:16 PM

There are people who make a habit of showing up a few minutes before they go on, then split right after. Damned rude, I say.
Then there are those who wait until their turn before they tune.
Then there are those who sing 45 verse ballads in a large group.
And last, but not least, the ones who "noodle" on their instrument while someone is singing. Or they rap on them out of time.
Oh, and the most irritating, the ones who insist on playing along when they don't know the tune, and are half a beat behind in the wrong chord.
Don't get me started!

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM

It's lovely to hear the stories of Dougie McLean etc. Where muso's remember where they have come from ... long may it remain but for every one of those times there is a number of times when 'stars' have said feck off but i'm a dreamer and i like the idea of the stories and the good times

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM

There are any number of good and bad reasons for pickin' and runnin'; consider this scenario:

Semi-shy occasional performer decides to venture onstage at the nearest available opportunity (open-mike, singaround, or whatever) ~ for the first time ever, perhaps, or the first time in years, or maybe the first time after relocating to a new city.

Performer welcomes the support of sig-other and/or close friend(s), etc., and they attend the event together.

Said support group or person does not share performer's serious interest in folk music; they're interested in the singer (perhaps very interested, indeed) but not necessarily in the song.

Performer takes his/her turn and does a number or two.

Entourage says, "OK, that's that, let's go now"...

Performer may well wish to stick around, listen to others, make new friends, etc., but bows to pressure and exits.

(Possible subtext: significant other doesn't want performer to make new friends, or perhaps to connect with a specific potential "new friend.")

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

To add to an earlier comment-I, too have watched Tom Lewis come in,(at Mystic Seaport 2 years ago)be recognized, asked to sing, and do a nice number that just fit, then listen to others.

As to Uncle Dave's rhetorical question...I sure wish some of those young people were reading Mudcat so they would realize how controversial their behavior was. If they had a reason, they really should have said.
I have been in workshops (like at the FSGW Getaway) where folks get over committed and promise to do a song to help out a friend, but are expected in another workshop in 10 minutes, so ask to go out of turn and excuse themselves politely.....no problem with this.

All I hope from threads like this is that there is some subliminal conciousness raising among those who 'might' possibly have been less than thoughtful once or twice.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: The Barden of England
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:52 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Don, that was a great afternoon. If I remember he also asked if he could 'nick' the odd one or two! We are really lucky in The Bedford in Sidmouth Week as most of the featured artists join in, or sit and listen. I don't have to push eitiqette in there, it just happens and is organic.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:16 PM

The best experience I can recall was at Sidmouth 2003, when, on the Monday afternoon, Dougie McLean wandered into the Bedford, and sat down to listen. After about half an hour he was asked if he would like to perform, and borrowed a violin. He then asked all the musicians to join him, and produced a virtuoso 15 minute set of traditional tunes with enthusiastic accompaniment from every instrument in the place. He stayed for over two hours to listen to the rest of us. During a break in the proceedings he approached me, said that he had really enjoyed my comic songs, and asked if I had recordings of my material, as he would like to buy one. I said I would be very happy to give him a copy of my CD, but he insisted on paying for it. He then thanked everyone for allowing him to join the session, and left. A real gentleman, and an example of what singaround etiquette ought to be.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 11:41 AM

It's pretty sad when ya need an etiquette book to trade songs and do a few harmonies.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

what about learning from others? Or just the enjoyment of listening to others? participation in what is essentially a social occasion?

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 11:23 AM

I think I'll do a little "Devil's advocate" work here:

Suppose, for a moment, a group of say three young aspiring performers, and they work HARD at perfecting a limited repertoire. Outside of that repertoire maybe they're not too sure of themselves--or there may not even BE an "outside of that repertoire".

Now, as I say, they've worked hard, and do their rehearse thing pretty well, and are put in a featured position. When they're done with their set, they might be really unsure of themselves, and reluctant to show their feet of clay, so they think it's a good idea to vanish before they get exposed on stuff they are not really up on.

What do we say to that sort of scenario? Of course they should make polite noises before leaving, but remember I'm positing young, maybe adolescent people here, whose social graces may not be equal to their insecurities.

Any thoughts?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 11:02 AM

"Not that I've ever accused Woodchuck's Revenge of this kind of mike hogging. Or of pre-arrangement, for that matter."

Watch yourself. You can be replaced. There's a lot of wierd old guys around...me, bigchuck, Kendall....

The fact that you're right is no excuse.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM

Midchuck-
as an extreme case, imagine the Mormon Tabernacle Choir at a singaround, each member demanding a turn an then producing a pre-arranged choral gem.

Not that I've ever accused Woodchuck's Revenge of this kind of mike hogging.Or of pre-arrangement, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM

If you're lucky enough to get Ramskyte in your singaround, then each of them will sing his own songs rather than stuff from the group's act. It is an individual solo performance, other group members join in the chorus along with the rest of us.

Same with Woodchucks' Revenge...

Peter.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:20 AM

What Bill and Rita said. It is the "feel" or "spirit" of the thing. Some people are always trying to promote themselves or their group while others join in wholeheartedly.

If you're lucky enough to get Ramskyte in your singaround, then each of them will sing his own songs rather than stuff from the group's act. It is an individual solo performance, other group members join in the chorus along with the rest of us.

And last year there was a very quiet singaround on the last day at Upton with about 8 or 10 people. Tom Lewis walked into the pub and just stood at the bar having a quiet drink and listening - he had to be in the final concert in about an hour's time. We asked if he would like to sing, and he pulled out of the air a nice quiet reflective song that he had written but not performed for many years: tailor-made to the feel of the afternoon. And he stayed and joined us in the Farewell Shanty to close the session. If only more "pro's" had Tom's attitude.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:54 PM

When you mix folks who are constantly furthering their careers with those who are just singing for fun, strange things can happen. You sometimes feel the rest of the room is just being used as audience and for rehearsal/practice. What was in three young folks minds that night, you'd have to ask them.

And I have many times watched the phenomenon of certain 'known' performers coming in, condescending to do one or two, then either leaving or going off in the corner to talk..etc. I usually get the impression that they simply do not care to listen to amateurs or are bored unless they are in the spotlight............
   I also know wonderful exceptions to this: professional musicians who will sing with anyone, anywhere and pay polite attention when others are singing. One of the best I ever met was Tom Paley. He just blended into the group and made music. Our own Rick Fielding was another- he simply cared what others did.....and Jed Marum, the several times I met him, made an effort to acknowlege and share, rather than just performing. I could think of more if it weren't so late.

As to the side issue of several members of a group using the opportunity to 'do' several of their group's songs....it IS like Rita and Dick G. said.....you can tell. It can feel natural, or it can feel like a setup.
   Sadly, when egos and self-interest get too wound up, people can lose a sense of what 'fits' in the group. I suspect that everyone reading has watched someone who has himself 'primed' for one certain song, and ruins the mood of a sing by doing it no matter what.

There is probably a PhD in Psychology/Sociology for a good study of "Group Dynamics in Folk Music Singarounds"....I've watched 'em for 40 years now, and seen everything from rank amateurs to world class, and sometimes it ain't purty...*wry grin*


My, how I do run on.....

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Ferrara
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

Midchuck, it has to do with the spirit of the thing. Are you playing along with your friend, or performing with them? If you're playing pre-arranged accompaniments & harmonies you're performing. If no one else is playing along (or harmonizing), will it feel to the other listeners as if you are playing along? Or as if you are just doing more of your group's music?

It ain't illegal. Just not in accord, IMO, with the feeling of a good singaround.

I have occasionally seen members of quite well known groups ask whether anyone minded if they did a group song in a singaround rather than lead an individual song. They didn't all sing group songs and they didn't sing them on every round. I think that was good etiquette. Besides we got to hear some great songs we'd never have heard otherwise....

Rita F

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:38 PM

Having changed my name and location since this happened it is unlikely the event will still be remembered, but I was miffed when, having been a regular on alternate weeks at two folk clubs for some time I found that after a holiday I had promised to be in both clubs on the same night.

I duly phoned one organiser and said I would be there late, went to the other club and said I would have to leave at half time.

Did I get to sing in either club that night? no - and for some weeks afterwards I was persona non gratia.

Guess who was otherwise engaged when I was asked to turn up and fill in for a guest who had been delayed - as it happened I had made other plans but I would have been willing to change them for an organiser who had been a bit more understanding.

Anne

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:14 PM

Ah, the Italian Method-- La Standarrrrdah!!! :~)

I like Kaleea's approach.

~S~

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:48 PM

if you have your index finger in your lughole, always remember to raise your little finger (as when drinking tea).

This is what genteel folksingers do, as it facilitates scratching your head when you forget the words.

Standarda are important.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:29 PM

It does help to have a person (or persons) who acts as "MC" for such occasions, and perhaps the MC(s) might be discreetly briefed about not only ettiquette, but polite ways to deal with the above and other situations. On the unusual occasion in which "pros," whether real or self-imagined, are invited & must leave, YES, they should graciously acknowledge the kind oppportunity they have been given, and apologize for their swift departure. When the above kind of behavior has been exhibited at jams/sing&orplayarounds where I was "facilitating," I have politely & cheerfully recieved our guests, & let the "pros" know that they are due to be up at X-O'clock, which is in so many minutes, right after so & so, and that it is customary for us to give them X amount of time, after which, they will be seated to listen to some of our own fine Musicians. After performing, ef they insist upon ducking out early & I sense they are rude or just do not get it, I am always "quite surprised"--onstage or at focal point--upon which I let them know that our guests usually come for the opportunity to share (emphasis on the back & forth connotation of the word) our Music with each other, so that they are placed in a position of apologizing & realizing their mistake. I must say though, that sometimes Musicians DO have a place they must be, and the real pros (young or old) always let one know up front. Then, there are others who simply do not care, and from time to time these things will occur.
    I like to point out, that the best professional Musicians usually appreciate & enjoy the opportunity to encourage live acoustic Music & especially to encourage the Musicians performing--the younger, the better. At my fav Music fest, The Walnut Valley Music Festival annually in Sept. in Winfield KS, the pros can be found at O:darkthirty in the campgrounds jammin' all night with the attending "amateur &/or pro" festival going Musicians in the campgrounds!

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:15 PM

Most people are too polite to bring the subject up with the parties concerned, or just don't get the chance. I know, from experience, that it is all too easy then to sit and simmer, or to question whether it's just you being too sensitive.

This forum can be a great place just to air your frustrations and to canvass the opinions of others. Anything that eases tension can only be good.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:26 PM

And anyhow, say they ARE a**holes. So what's the plan to do something about it, or is it just a thread to warn your fellow Catters not to ever, ever do it ourselves in your presence?

Sure, people can be idiots, but is that the whole focus, cuz it's kinda limiting....

~S~

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:21 PM

I'm with Midchuck on this one. Why penalize individuals for their membership in a group?

If it would seem too monotonous for, say, a trio to do three consecutive similar-sounding songs, perhaps the individual member's turns should be staggered, with other singers performing in-between (even though the band-mates might well be sitting adjacent to each other).

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

But I still don't get it.

Rita seems to be saying that if all the members of a group that regularly performs a group are present at a song circle, it's all right if each member sings a song when the circle comes to him/her, but the other members mustn't sing harmony or play along, because that makes it a group performance and the group is only allowed one performance as a group.

But I assume the group members would be allowed to sing harmony or join in choruses of songs by people from outside of their group - just not by the other group members. Is that it?

I have a cold. Maybe I'm a little slow today.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM

Charley you are right a number (in fact in Whitby's case a load of places) are available but what W & W were doing was the same wherever !! Yes promote your wares but in Whitby Folk Weeks case there so much going on there's no need really for being shall we say....too forward.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

Midchuck-
What Rita said.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Sooz
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 12:11 PM

Quite right, Dave.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 12:11 PM

The band I work with has done a couple of these 20 minutes in a singaround stuff (mainly at Cleckheaton) and our policy is to get there at the start if we arn't busy. Mostly because it would be disastrous and rude to go on and sing a song that has already been done in the singaround.

We usually stay afterwards unless we are busy.....angels thats us...!

Spot

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:59 AM

GUEST (or one of them) asked:

So, did anyone ask if the three youngsters had something else to attend to? On a weekend most of them do. Is that a crime!

Seems to me it would have been FAR better personal relations on their part simply to say, "Gee, we wish we could stay, but we're booked at ______ half an hour from now, and we really gotta run! Thanks for listening! Or something like that. Even if the truth is that they're relieved not to have to stay.

If they had said something like that, it would have saved no end of irritation and ill will, methinks. That's what etiquette is.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:05 AM

I am used to singarounds that are in general smaller than the ones discussed here, and in private homes. However, the subject does come up, and here, FWIW, are my animadversions on it from an email discussion:

3. Queue discipline

How to decide who's next is a question that has been considered most extensively by the filkers, who have half a dozen systems with names (which I don't recall). In my experience, unless there is an actual swine in the company, catch as catch can works fine up to a size of 8 or so, and past that, strict rotation (with the usual options of passing & of making a request to someone else) has the virtue of simplicity, tho it lacks the charm of one song suggesting the next. Another system is for the one who is it to throw a beanbag to, or at, the one who is next.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Christians have explained that the commandment not to work on Saturday actually means not to play on Sunday. :||

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM

McFat-

Apologies to you. I've enjoyed Margaret and John's hospitality in Sydney as an "outsider" at several music parties, sessions and BBQ's and assume they would be as gracious in other remote parts of the world. However, I do believe you were describing a festival weekend where several sessions were happening simultaneously in the same immediate area and that tends to work against hanging out at any one spot.

I'm pleased that you got to know Margaret better and that you admire some of John's songs enough to learn them. He does have some keepers.

Peace,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,muppitz at work
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:37 AM

The situation in question is something that occurs at Moor and Coast Festival, however it is usually because artists are genuinely busy (and Glen's time organisation leaves a little to be desired sometimes! (A Joke Glen, I promise!)).
Last year Emma Heath was doing a concert spot at the school which ran over time but she was then supposed to be doing a spot at the Endeavor just 20 mins after the concert finished, so in that situation, I think it's understandable that you wouldn't want to hang around. I for one would probably be hunting for food!

There is another side to this old penny, some people find it an annoyance that guest spots are scheduled at all in Singarounds, for them it is an annoyance full stop.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes people's etiquette leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.

muppitz x

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:25 AM

Charley Noble I think the excuse of travelling 10,00 miles is a little lame it doesn't excuse rudeness. I for one and most of my close colleagues in the sing a round scene will (most of the time) make space for profesional or visiting artists. W & W managed to piss a lot of people off that year but since then I've met and worked with Margaret at Stainsby and I now sing one of John's songs. Perhaps the colleration is the way John and Nicole (Cloudstreet) arrived and absolutely wowed everyone not just with their material but with their personalities and manner (they'd travelled the same amount of miles Charley !!) I like the idea of being 'parachuted' to Australia but in the words of my big bruv 'It have to be a big bloody parachute !!'

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:06 AM

Andy - it seems to me that the trio were 'booked' to play a three song spot. They turned up in plenty of time, played their spot as agreed, and went, having fulfilled their booking. Where's the breach of etiquette?.

Let's forget kids for a moment: if I knew a top performer was around and he/she gave his/her time to support a session with a brief performance, I would be grateful, not resentful.

Stu

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:22 AM

I can see at least one "catch-22" here. One complaint is people who tune at the start of their "slot": another is people who arrive then tune. Before you say "well go out and tune then" - seats have been known to be occupied by other arrivers.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:58 AM

Having parents and close relatives as managers can be a bummer too.... at a Saffron Walden festival a few years ago, the father manager of the lunchtime gig band managed to book a member of the group into a solo concert the same evening... no problem you say? It is when the lunchtime concert is in Essex and the evening concert is in Glasgow, with the only suitable plane leaving 15 mins before the lunchtime gig finishes......

I had the task of driving the artiste to the airport and without realising whom his manager was (the father of his girlfriend....) suggested he change his manager! I got a rueful grin.

LTS

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:07 AM

Posting anonymously here because I can tell who was meant. Children of people active in the music, they've been playing from an early age and are technically really quite good, but still teenagers and a little bit self-centered and arrogant without, as yet, a real understanding to back it up. Nothing new there!

McFat is right this time (but a parachute would be a bad plan. Australia doesn't need another asteroid crater). The girls have hit the age where they may think that they know more than their parents (who act as agents and roadies for them), and their parents' contemporaries; but they'll get over that. I haven't met them since they were children (not so very long ago): they seemed thoroughly nice then and will be again.

They probably had to leave smartish in order to get a lift home. They aren't old enough to drive yet, and public transport that way on isn't very reliable. Mind you, the father in question ought to know better at his age, and it's perfectly understandable that it looked rude, which it may have been; or not. We don't know what other commitments he had that day. Perhaps he should have said.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:32 PM

frowning at people wont make things better. it will just make for a lot of bitter folkies.
heh, sounds like my idea of a good time.
love mary.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Ferrara
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:24 PM

Midchuck, I'm with Dick on this. But I think you missed a key point. Whether a trio can take three turns without being irritating depends on what they do with their turns, especially whether they "insist on ... group material."

If each member of a trio wants to sing another song with the trio, there is likely to be a certain numbness setting in amongst the listeners by the end of the third song, particularly if all the material is similar or is part of the group's standard repertoire.

If the members perform varied songs, if each singer is not joined by the entire group, and if the musical styles are varied, it's a very different experience.

One case is an unsolicited mini concert. The other is three people taking their turns in a singaround. ... Just my 2 cents....

Rita F

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

My pet peeve: the group (professional or otherwise) of, say five members who insists on taking five turns singing (or just playing) group material. Shantey groups and bluegrassers are particular offenders.

So, Dick, you're saying that if one is a member of a group, (a trio, for instance), and all of the members are there, then the group is considered one person for purposes of the song circle? So that each member of a trio would get only one-third as many chances to sing as a person would who wasn't a member of a group, the other members of which were also present?

Seems to me to be fairer if each person gets to sing, i. e. lead, a song, in his/her turn. If an organized group takes a turn for each member, but one member sings all the leads, then I'd agree with you.

Not that I have any personal prejudice on this issue, you understand...

Peter.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:29 PM

There are many exponants of the art of buggering off after their set.. There is one person on the UK folk scene whom I shall not name, who is better known for his anti social behaviour than he is as a performer! He comes to a singaround, parks himself as close as possible to the MC, will take out his guitar and tune it, whilst others are trying to sing, talks loudly through others sets and if isn't asked to sing within 5 minutes of getting there, pointedly puts the guitar away again and leaves in the middle of another set. If he IS asked to sing, he will stretch the song out to two by 'forgetting' the words to the first song and launching into a second before people are aware of it... and be out the door afterwards before the next person has chance to even stand!

Frequently when this performer walks in one door, several people will vanish out the other, knowing they only have to wait a maximum of 15 minutes before it's safe to return.

My etiquette bugbears are people who close off half the room to sessions by sitting in the middle with their backs to anyone who isn't the organiser. I know that most pubs are not geared towards large sessions, but even the strangest shaped room can be utilised well with a little thought. Again, a certain someone who will remain nameless; without fail, will always close up a circle of singers/musicians, by sitting with their back to half the room.

Hanging's too good for 'em!

LTS

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

McFat-

Well, Warners and Walters do have the excuse that they'd traveled more than 10,000 miles to sing in the UK.

May you demonstrate your courtesy when next you parachute into Oz.

Charley Noble in Maine

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:38 PM

the great thing about this whole folk business is that it takes all sorts: talented, willing, smart and ignorant just like that big old world out there

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM

The best or perhaps worst example of lack of manners was a few years ago at Whitby when Warners and Walters were around they did the ultimate and... arrived...positioned themselves where the singaround was going...got their song finished it said we're a duo we need two sang again then...guess what... buggered off to another pub !! The worst thing that is happening at th moment is that the 'talented' offsprings of folkies are being 'marketed' by their parents perhaps before they have gained 'stagecraft'. Most are talented but some just are overhyped.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

So, did anyone ask if the three youngsters had something else to attend to? On a weekend most of them do. Is that a crime! I wouldn't want my three to spend hours in a 'boozer' either.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM

A lot depends on the ability of the individual to read the situation, and react with sensitivity and concern for the feelings of others, which in most cases comes only with experience.

I have no problem with young people who, generally through lack of that experience, give mild offence to one or two. I usually wait to see if it is repeated, before suggesting that their company, as well as their talent, is appreciated, and that they would be welcome to spend more time with us. This usually has the desired effect.

I never pressure anyone to perform, and if someone who is popular says no, I respect their wishes. I have, however, received the odd slap in the face from people who were very rude in the way they refused. One very well known artist, who dropped in on the way through Kent, replied "No way, I do this for money". Strange to relate, he has never been booked to perform at my club, and he never will be. It's not saying no that matters, but the way you choose to say it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

I was there too on Saturday Sooz and Andy, right through the afternoon, and I wholeheartedly agree with you both. Good sense did prevail for most of the long session, though, I found, and the exceptions already noted were indeed the few exceptions - but as you say, rudeness and/or bad manners is what gets noticed. (At bigger festivals, yes, the "busy schedule" singer who might be wearing several hats, is the one allowable excuse for the short-stay...)
It was, and always is, great to sit there and listen through - and yes, learn from - other folks' contributions. It's the mark of a good singaround if you sit there wondering just when you can go to the bar/loo, so as not to miss something good!

And yes, take a look at that earlier thread, Andy - there's much valuable discussion therein.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 04:27 PM

I think this supports Clean Supper point of view.

Its based on the fact that I closed Market Rasen Folk Club recently.

This is a reply from one of the members of a local group called DACAPO (8 of them in the group).

>>What a great shame!

Thank you for all your hard work Les in starting the club in the first place it is never easy starting a venture like that, myself and DaCapo have learned so much from the other artists and found it a wonderful meeting place.

Market Rasen was the first folk club that I personally attended regularly and loosing it will leave a large hole in my diary I will no doubt have to travel to another club now to get my fix.
Kind regards,
Helen Benson <<

This applies to almost all artists that played at the club.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Clean Supper
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM

I can't help thinking that our annoyance at people who sing their bit but don't listen to ours (yes, I feel it too) speaks volumes - or at least essays - about our own egos and desire to be applauded. I think it's probably not actually rude, really, it just hurts a bit if you're not too sure of how much your contribution is valued.

Having said that, I do think that sticking around is a better way to learn the singing, and the being together, that are part of the folk scene. I think anyone that clears off as soon as their set is over is robbing themselves and also taking something away from the scene itself that their presence would have added.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:48 PM

I believe it was Doc Watson who said: "Your style is determined by your limitations."   I know in my case that's true.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Sooz
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 02:42 PM

If you keep within your limitations (is that good grammar?) then no-one will know what they are!

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: John C.
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

To MBSLynne above - of course I sit there quietly and listen to the awful singers of very, very long songs. I suppose that if I was more courageous, than I am, then I would tell them what I thought. Trouble is, how do you do that without hurting their feelings, putting them off singing for life or getting hit?
I still think, though, that being a good singer (especially in a singaround situation) is about more than just singing your longest song whenever you get the opportunity - but about having good taste, understanding your own limitations at any point in your singing career (whilst, of course, working hard to overcome those limitations) and having regard for the feelings and patience of other people in the group (especially the organiser, who wants to give everyone their turn).

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

My pet peeve: the group (professional or otherwise) of, say five members who insists on taking five turns singing (or just playing) group material. Shantey groups and bluegrassers are particular offenders.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Sooz
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:50 PM

I'm with you Andy. I'd predicted that that would happen. Mind you, they weren't the only ones to turn up just before their spot.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:03 PM

It took me a long time to be willing to sing in public at all. So I accept the "No" and move on. Usually the person saying "No" just needs some time to feel safe. Pressuring them is just rude in my opinion.

I haven't seen the sing and leave folk. I am more offended by those who perform and then chat through everyone else's offering.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: MBSLynne
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:54 AM

sometimes I really don't feel like singing and I have actually not gone to folk clubs before because I know if I say I don't want to sing I'll get pressured and it's a pain. As far as I'm concerned, you sing because you want to, so if, for any reason you don't want to, people should respect that. I can't see why anyone, renowned singer or not, should feel obliged to sing. When I'm running a folk club I make sure I give EVERYONE, even people who are known not to sing or play, the chance to perform, but by the same token, if someone is offered the chance but declines then I pass on to the next person. I can't really see the problem.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:32 AM

I would consider it bad mannered and against the spirit of the folk scene.

It's also not a great folk career move, as it will be noted by any club/gig organisers in the room, who may otherwise have booked the act.

That said, if you're at a festival on a busy schedule, you may not have any choice. In which case you can explain at the time.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:59 AM

Just simply smile and say 'maybe later'... usually works. A flat 'no' is just darned rude, but is something I've heard from a lot of people... and some of them are artistes of reknown!

LTS

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Wrinkles
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:55 AM

ok then.

Is it rude not to sing when asked, and when it's known you've a fair voice?

I ask this because sometimes I just want to leave my ego at home and absorb and learn from others.

But if I sing, then Ego rushes out to help with the performance and take the applause and overwrite most if not all that's been learned.

So how does one say NO without giving offence?

Wrinkles

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: MBSLynne
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:53 AM

You have to remember though, that while YOU think one singer of long songs is rubbish and another brilliant, their own view on the matter may be different. Someone who is not a particularly good singer often doesn't know that they aren't. If someone wants to sing a long and boring song we owe it to them to sit with as much patience as we can manage and listen...the same courtesy which we should extend to EVERYONE who gets up and performs in a singaround no matter how good or bad. We're just lucky that a) we get our turn and the courtesy of people listening to us (we may not be as good as we think we are) and b) that we sometimes get the chance to hear people perform who are really good, which makes it all worthwhile.

Love Lynne
PS As far as the original question goes....you are probably right about the etiquette..it's a bit like eating and running, but I can think of occasions where I wouldn't have found it bad manners.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:35 AM

If only this behaviour was confined to young and inexperienced artists... it's all too common in a lot of older people who should know better!

John C... by your standard there, I must be bloody amazing! Most of my material is short and I've got at least 2 songs that are only one verse! The longest of those is only 8 lines! : )

LTS

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: John C.
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:28 AM

I completely agree with you, Andy. I have witnessed such crass arrogance and bad manners, recently, myself.
Having said that, what really gets to me, is the singer who, when it gets to his/her turn, insists on singing the longest song he/she can think of and then, when he/she finally gets to the end, also insists on repeating the last verse! Of course, how irritating this is also depends on the talent of the singer. Last year I heard someone sing an unusual, and rather long, version of a ballad that I thought I knew well - the performance was exquisite and I didn't want it to end!
Unfortunately, this performance was an exception to the rule that, in most singarounds, the length of the song tends to be inversely proportional to the talent of the singer.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:26 AM

Maybe they had somewhere else they needed to be.

Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:16 AM

Andy - There have been several discussions of singaround etiquette here. Have a look at the thread: Singaround etiquette? for discussion starting with your same theme

Mick

Subject: Singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:04 AM

I've just been to a one-day festival in South Yorkshire, a major part of which was an afternoon's singaround in the local boozer where various club organisers took turns to act as M.C, for an hour each. The format was that the M.C would do the usual invitations to sing/play one piece each from those assembled, with the hour culminating in a 'feature' spot of three songs/tunes from a local 'guest', invited by the organiser. This was well timetabled and all concerned knew what they were doing and when.All well and good.

However I witnessed, once again, an example of bad manners,that I feel is all too common at clubs and singaround sessions of late and is particularly (not exclusively)demonstrated by younger folkies.

A talented trio of teenage musicians (plus a dad)were the 'featured artistes'at the end of one particular hours period. They arrived just 20 minutes before their allotted spot, did their bit and buggered off as soon as they had finished. To myself, this is tantamuont to saying 'Thanks for allowing us to promote ourselves, but we can't be bothered to stay and listen to you'! There was a wealth of talent and experience in that room which these youngsters could have savoured and drawn upon, but they chose to ignore it. Will they learn their craft better, in the time-honoured fashion of mixing with other folkies at grass roots level, drawing upon experience and knowledge, or from listening to C.Ds from the current crop of folk 'heroes'and trying to emulate such performances? Is what they did just callow youthfulness or is it more like vanity and a 'prima-donna' attitude? What do others think of such behaviour, and is it getting more common?