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BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects

Keith A of Hertford 08 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM
greg stephens 08 Mar 05 - 01:38 PM
Wolfgang 08 Mar 05 - 01:44 PM
Wolfgang 08 Mar 05 - 02:00 PM
John MacKenzie 08 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 08 Mar 05 - 05:48 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 08 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM
Leadfingers 08 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 09 Mar 05 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,The Curator 09 Mar 05 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,paul Burke 09 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Mar 05 - 08:58 AM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,The Curator 09 Mar 05 - 09:10 AM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 09:17 AM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 09 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 10:00 AM
girochaser 09 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,The Curator 09 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM
Den 09 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 10:45 AM
Den 09 Mar 05 - 10:50 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Mar 05 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 11:56 AM
Strollin' Johnny 09 Mar 05 - 12:03 PM
Den 09 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM
Den 09 Mar 05 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM
Raedwulf 09 Mar 05 - 04:51 PM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 05 - 05:15 PM
greg stephens 09 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 05 - 05:57 PM
GUEST 09 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 09 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 04:53 AM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 05:05 AM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM
ard mhacha 10 Mar 05 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM
Jimmy C 10 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Meself Alone 10 Mar 05 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,The Curator 10 Mar 05 - 04:55 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 05:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 05:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM
greg stephens 10 Mar 05 - 06:16 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM
Jimmy C 11 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 05 - 02:55 AM
mindblaster 11 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM
Den 11 Mar 05 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Meself Alone 11 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM
Peace 11 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,A Realist 11 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,an Observer 11 Mar 05 - 02:02 PM
Jimmy C 11 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM
Jimmy C 11 Mar 05 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,The Curator 11 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Meself Alone 11 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,*Laura* 11 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM
Raedwulf 11 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM
Den 11 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM
Raedwulf 11 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,The Curator 11 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Meself Alone 11 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 11 Mar 05 - 04:51 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 11 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Meself Alone 11 Mar 05 - 05:14 PM
Jimmy C 11 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Meself Alone 11 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM
greg stephens 12 Mar 05 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,The Curator 12 Mar 05 - 04:15 AM
ard mhacha 12 Mar 05 - 05:48 AM
ard mhacha 12 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Mar 05 - 09:38 PM
andymac 12 Mar 05 - 11:04 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 05 - 01:10 AM

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Subject: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

Yes, the same people so outraged at being accused of a robbery without a conviction, have offered to shoot four men accused of the vicious killing of RobertMcCartney.
However they said shoot not execute, so they were probably only intending to put bullets through their knees and elbows.
So that's alright then.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:38 PM

Very handsome of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:44 PM

Link to story

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:00 PM

Text of IRA statement

This land needs badly that very soon crimes will be investigated by the police and punished by the courts and by noone else.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

This is the perennial problem in NI, each group is resposible for its actions to a different hierarchy. As I said to Ard Macha in a different thread the Catholic supporters of Sinn Fein do not go to the police for justice, they go to the local godfathers of the paramilitaries for retribution, not justice. The same is true of the other side but to a lesser extent. Until both sides agree to be bound by the same rules this situation will continue. The name Sinn fein is usually translated as 'ourselves alone' and they continue to live up to it, by being a law to themselves.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:48 PM

Where is the focking GUEST from the IRA thread. Off playing with his willie no doubt. Thought he would be here by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM

Surprised?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

The bit that some mudcatters will find hard to believe is not that the IRA made such a brainless offer, but that the McCartney family rejected it. Just have a look at the lust for vengeance that bismirches some of the capital-punishment threads. Yet there were the McCartneys, offered vengeance on a plate, and they passed up the chance.

I am utterly flabbergasted at the stance of the McCartneys, and even more so that they got away with it. I'm tempted to assume they must themselves have been well respected in PIRA circles, if not directly involved, even to have contemplated such a stance, but I ,ust say I have not a shred of evidence for that.

For PIRA, a pub brawl has turned into an unmitigated disaster, and a major watershed. That in turn could be a setback for the inch-by-inch progress towards reconciliation, if the fine balance between the two "sides" now tilts unhealthily in favour of the unionists.

One thing is certain. With or without decommissioning, any threat of a return to the armed struggle is gone for good. In the 1960s, northern catholics were enduring scandalous abuse as unionists exploited an inbuilt majority, and their outrageous gerrymandering of electoral boundaries. There was blatant discrimination through all aspects of the economy - most keenly felt in the grotesquely manipulated distribution of public-sector housing. Yet even in those appalling circumstances it took several years - and further provocations - to get an armed struggle under way.

People who would once have sheltered a fugitive IRA volunteer, or let him in at the front door and helped him to disappear through a labyrinth of "entries" at the rear, would now be more likely to put in a discreet call to the confidential police line. Two main reasons: first "police" no longer means "RUC", and second, a greater proportion of people now own their own houses, and they have seen property values rise as part of the peace dividend. They want stability.

Without tacit support in their heartland areas - and they never had a stronger heartland than the republican enclave of Short Strand where the McCartneys live - the Provos could not sustain an organised campaign.

There is now a serious risk that PIRA will splinter and fragment further - exceptional leadership may prevent it - and no doubt a number of mavericks will have their day. But the armed struggle is history.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

All this proves is that the so called 'activists' (on BOTH sides) are far more interested in their various criminal activities than 'The Struggle ' .


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:42 AM

This illustrates very graphically the extraordinary isolation of the PIRA from mainstream cultural life now. They seem to have issued this statement with no self-awareness at all of what a PR disaster it was. They offered in all good faith to solve the problem by shooting the perpetrators: they really seem not to have considered the fact that most people see the IRA readiness to kill people as a problem, rather than the solution to a problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:50 AM

"This land needs badly that very soon crimes will be investigated by the police and punished by the courts and by noone else."

The historic problem- why the IRA exists at all, and why people have allowed the IRA to police their areas- is that the police and courts in Northern Ireland, as well as the whole system of government there, have been part of the problem- biased, sectarian, unjust, violent.

The (shortish term) root of the problem was the deliberate creation of the sectarian state in 1921. That state had, and still has, a built in majority- but just a bare majority- of support, and used its hegemony to promote sectarian divisions, the better to hold its own power.

Any solution MUST end that situation. You can't blame people for not acquiescing to permanent second-class status. That the protest developed into violence was entirely the fault of the legally established powers, and was quite possibly intended.

The IRA are murderous and destructive, and tyrranise the areas they control- but those inhabitants have little confidence that removal of their 'protection' would lead to improvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:51 AM

Isn't wonderful that there are so many people out there that feel they are in a position to speak with knowledge about the social aspects of my country, and its rule of law. The Provisional Irish Republican Army was born in 1969 out of the lack of protection and law for the nationalist community. I know I can remember when my fathers shop was burnt out by a protestant mob (including off duty members of the Royal Ulster Special Constabulary) and we were told by the police, well you are catholics living in a protestant area ! I saw them stand and laugh with the ones who did the deed a half an hour later. Basil Brook the then Prime minister of the North of Ireland (who also formed the U.S.C.) said in our house of government that we had a protestant police force for a protestant people. So now you have the reason why we depended on the movement to give our areas protection. This protection extended to dealing with anti social elements within our areas. Which I fully agree with. We have the lowest crime rate in Europe, due to the zero tolerance of mindless crime on working class communites. As to the asshole who said that the Provisional movement was involved in the Robbery at the Belfast headquarters of the Northern Bank, would he care to publish his proof to us all? I for one would like to see it. Or is he taking the word of Blair ? would he tell us a lie ? or Ahern, after all when it comes to large amounts of money, the party he belongs to has some track record.The Provisional Irish Republician Army has and will continue to have the support of the nationalist people in the North of Ireland, and that includes dealing with crime. They also have the right to deal with it's own members as it
sees fit. The British controlled media was been stirring up this current situation and I feel sorry for those know will at some stage see and feel they have been used for this purpose. So really the point I wish to make is don't talk about a country or it's people if you don't know what your talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM

"The Provisional Irish Republician Army has and will continue to have the support of the nationalist people in the North of Ireland,"

If you add 'some of', 'many of' or even 'most of' you are probably right.

"They also have the right to deal with it's own members as it
sees fit."

Utterly wrong. They have the right to expel members who disagree with organisational policies like any organisation does. They have no 'rights' whatsoever over non- members.

"so many people out there that feel they are in a position to speak with knowledge about the social aspects of my country"

The problem is that only about half the people over there think YOU have that right.

I'm personally for an all- Ireland solution- but that, Comrade Curator, would put YOU in a tiny, despised minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:26 AM

"My country" and "asshole"? Hmmmm. Is that really how they spell the fundamental orifice in Northern Ireland? I smell an American troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

Instead of shooting them, just NAME them and let the Courts decide their fate.
After all when they get shot we will know who they are! A bullet hole is a nice identification is it not.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:58 AM

If IRA/Sinn Fein was interested in 'justice ' they would have given up the
suspects by now, I think they are very synically aware that their offer of shooting would be rejected.
This also makes a mockery of de-comissioning their weapons.

If it wasn't so serious they would be a bloody joke.


The Curator is not Irish, definately a Yank, he should pick is words more carefully if he doesn't want to be found out.

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM

His comments on another thread are unequivocally American. Not, of course that makes what he says nonsense, some of my most sensible friends are American. But you do tend to be wary of people who seem to be being deceitful.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:10 AM

I'm Irish and proud of it.And Live on the Island.(Ask your questions on Ireland for proof)What so you think the Provisionals should hand over people to the British system of Justice ? Hello, your asking people who have suffered at the hands of these so called guardians of the peace to go against every Republican principal.If the current police force who has saw a budget of twice that of any other force in the U.K. can't do their job without the help of Republicans it says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:17 AM

Were you perhaps educated in America?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:22 AM

Oh, I forgot you wanted some test questions. What were the various names of the Warehouse in Belfast been in recent years? Name four bars on Union Quay in Cork. Who drank in the Four Alls? And, the clincher, define a langer.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM

No, don't name them. We don't want any court saying their trial has been prejudiced. If they don't trust the British police (and they have much reason not to - one word, Finucane) let's have an international police investigation- say Irish, Swedish and Canadian- endowed with normal police powers in NI. The IRA to give cooperation. No questions barred. The results to be assessed and presented in a court of law for full examination. The judgement to be binding.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:00 AM

Strikes me that Tony Blair is missing a rare opportunity to solve all his problems at one fell swoop. Put Gerry Adams in charge of anti terrorism measures.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: girochaser
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM

Curator

One Question What gives anyone the right to shoot some one else.

Dont give us all the defending of the rights pish and all of your social and upstanding goodness for the minority.

Shit bust I couldnt care less about what you believe or what I believe. I know that killing is wrong and whi the fuck do you think you are to ok it?

Arsehole

Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM

Wonderful what this site turns up. It turns my stomach to see what calls itself Irish these days.Having lived with the reality of the situation and been a victim of British repression I know what I'm talking about. I smell a couple of smart assed student type here who know all the wrongs in this world, and what to do about it. Rant away to your hearts content my friends, The Provisional Army has taken criticism for more than thirty years and it doesn't seem to have lost it's course.Keep on knocking it boys,your good for a laugh. The struggle will continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM

The Mafia has been around for longer, and exists for similar reasons, which have nothing to do with justice, and everything to do with crime.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:40 AM

A lack of knowledge never stopped the Nationalist/Republican bashers around here. Its all par for the course. The accusations that have been made here on this forum over the years are at times astounding, such as Bobby Sands was a murderer, Sinn Fein are Bank Robbers etc. Apparently you don't neeed proof you just follow the same old propaganda line of the British Government/UVF/UDA and their British bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:45 AM

Are we fogetting that a man was murdered. Or is that not illegal in Ireland!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:50 AM

A lot of men were murdered Guest, very few of them get this kind of coverage on Mudcat. My godfather a reserve policeman was one. My cousin a very talented carpenter and family man another and my best friend just 17 years old another. Noone has been convicted of their murders to this day and they don't get any press or discussion on here because they don't meet the criteria.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:52 AM

Perhaps then it is a good sign that someone is being held to account at last, and an indication of a change of heart in some quarters if not in others.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:56 AM

Psychotics. The lot of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:03 PM

There's no hope. They're all mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

Define they.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

A lot of men were murdered Guest, very few of them get this kind of coverage on Mudcat. (Den)

You miss the point why this murder made a Mudcat thread. Not because of just another murder in Northern Ireland or some other place in the world, but because of the made public offer of the IRA to the sisters to shoot the suspects (and their refusal). That is the newsworthy bit.

Peter K, in threads about NI I always look for your contributions for clarity, information and analysis. This time again you have met my already high expectations.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:18 PM

Wolfgang, I'm not missing anything and please don't try to undermine me. I grew up in N. Ireland so I think I am more qualified than you or most others to comment on these threads. The point you and most others are missing is that the IRA have a code of conduct for their members. You learn what it entails going in. If you can't live by it you don't join. Once in never out.

And by the way you miss the point entirely. This post was started by someone who has an axe to grind regarding N.Ireland and for no other reason.

Why is it we never see threads started by these individuals that are pro nationalist. Can you think of one?

And finally my God Father was a catholic police reservist shot dead by the IRA. The word on the street was that the funeral should be low key. It wasn't and friends and neighbours lined the route to the chapel. I think we made a stand that day long before Mr. Mc Cartney's untimely demise.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

Den you won't find many on here who have any idea of what it is like living in NI. The most you can hope for is someone who sings Molly Malone badly while supping green beer. But they are all experts!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:51 PM

Den - The fact that you grew up in NI makes you just as much "more biased" as "more qualified". The 'outsiders' can see that only too clearly, & I doubt you're convincing them that you're wrong.

You appear to be Republican. What would you say to a Loyalist who "grew up" in NI who thought he was "more qualified" to comment than you? How would you convince him he was wrong & you were right. More importantly, how do you think you'll convince the neutrals?

This isn't a dig, this is a serious question. The problem with bigotry, & narrow bloody mindedness is that it always knows it's right, & never questions itself. It doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on, or what the argument is. How are you going to convince people that you are rational & fair-minded, not driven by hatred & bias?

Regards,

Rædwulf


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:15 PM

No, Den, you didn't get my point as well.
And I'm not missing the point about the code of conduct. I don't remember exactly how often I have read it, but it (slightly different versions) has been printed in several of the roughly two dozen books I have read about NI. Reading is still a different type of knowledge gathering than living there and I appreciate inside views. But qualification for a comment on this thread comes not only from living in NI.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

Den: you criticise pro-Republicans for never starting threads. Yet you seem to be pro-republican....you're the only person who can answer tha question. Why don't you start threads?
    I see the Oh-so-Irish American Curator is having a bit of trouble here...gone home to study Irish spelling and grammar?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:57 PM

I wanted to say a similar thing as you, Greg, but then I stopped for that complaint can be read differently if the 'that' would be thought to refer to 'threads' instead of 'individuals'.

So lets wait for Keith and other individuals starting a pro nationalst thread.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM

I'd say The Curator is Irish all right. He wouldn't be the only one in Ireland with that mentality. The problem is not so much his views, but that he is determined to stand his ground in the face of all logic. Specifically, he simply hasn't noticed that the world has moved on since the bad times he remembers.

Let me be clear: the RUC was a national disgrace, as bad as everything else I mentioned in an earlier post. Someone mentioned the courageous Pat Finucane. Madden & Finucane in Belfast were my solicitors. I'm fully aware of the collusion that went on between the RUC and loyalist murderers. I remember the alarm spread by the notorious thugs known as the Shankill Butchers, and the fact that 12 detectives were put on their trail, at a time when 150 were looking for the Yorkshire Ripper. I saw at first hand the crass and disgusting behaviour of British troops in Belfast in the early years of the troubles, that did so much to stir up hatred in the communities they were supposed to be protecting. An in-law remembers vividly the night 70-odd years ago that the McMahon family were murdered in Belfast by a gang led by RUC inspector John William Nixon (who was subsequently elected a unionist MP).

For sure there are enough horrors in the not-too-distant past for The Curator to dine out on for years to come. But instead of wallowing in the past, it is surely time to recognise that more civilised values are taking root and that there is a real prospect of reconciliation, given a degree of goodwill on both sides. The McCartneys are not the first family to say they don't want any reprisal killings. Those who continue to wear their bitterness on their sleeves could surely learn something from such examples.

Certainly the root-and-branch reform of the RUC should have been a major priority many years earlier, but the process is now well underway, and has already gone farther than many would have foreseen a few years ago. John Stevens, who recently retired as the UK's most senior cop, did much to expose the scale of RUC-loyalist collusion - despite his inquiry being sabotaged by elements within the RUC.

It is a pity that Sinn Fein felt constrained by history against acknowledging the good faith behind police reform. They now find themselves forced, by one brave family, into recognition of the Police Service of Northern Ireland - de facto, if not de jure. There is really no other way to interpret what Gerry Adams said at the SF ard fheis last weekend (where incidentally the McArtney family were feted as honoured guests). From reading The Curator's comments, one wonders if he is aware that Adams spoke at all.

For all that there were mistakes, blunders, own goals, and innocent lives lost, the PIRA campaign did, in my view, have some legitimacy, having been launched when Northern Ireland was not a democracy in any meaningful sense. It is therefore regrettable to see it losing its way so catastrophically in the last few weeks. It was bad enough offering to kill McCartney's murderers, but utterly stupid (as even McGuinness said in slightly more restrained terms) to state this proudly in a public statement.

But the episode is useful in one way, in that it shows up the demands for proof about the Northern Bank raid as being wholly disingenuous. Those behind such demands know full well what the difficulty is. But let me spell it out: if the police are struggling to get evidence in the McCartney case, where there has been special pleading from Gerry Adams for full co-operation, then obviously it will be that much harder to get evidence about the Northern Bank raid. Even in cases where the IRA have claimed responsibility, it has often been impossible to get enough evidence to prosecute anyone.

Yet who knows? With the IRA's standing now as low as it was at the onset of the troubles, someone may yet recover his memory, and recall some significant detail about the Northern Bank raid - and stand up to be counted.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM

Me above, obviously. Don't know why I wasn't logged in....


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:52 AM

How many generation must we have before we can put the past mistakes behind us.
The "peace process" has been going on long enough.
let there be PEACE.

No More Killings.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:53 AM

PLEASE!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:05 AM

Sorry Greg, wasn't back sooner, I unlike some have a life to be getting on with. Sorry my friend I am no Irish American, just Northern Irish. So please drop the American bit, I didn't insult you.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:27 AM

Who is going to shoot the IRA?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM

And so it goes on and on and on.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:06 PM

Peter K Fionn, certainly a lot of positve points in your Guest narrative, the collusion between the security forces and the loyalists is one aspect of these troubles that the Brits will avoid at all costs.
Giving free rein to loyalist killers to murder innocent people is plumbing the depths for a democratic government.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM

Den said
And by the way you miss the point entirely. This post was started by someone who has an axe to grind regarding N.Ireland and for no other reason.

Not really. It was the lead news item that night and has been prominent since. It would have been discussed in this forum and I knew it would be a good one.
Peter K's post gave me new perspective, the significance of vengeance being rejected.
Ard Mhacha is always enlightening for us outsiders. I share his views on collusion in murder.

I started the robbery thread for the same reason, and tried to be neutral and non agressive in the opening of it.

It is an interesting phenomenon that there are now very few Republican threads being started. Just a few years ago it was a regular and routine feature. I had not noticed until it was pointed up here.

Keith.

PS Guest Curator, I am intrigued to know the answers to Greg's questions, but am not questioning your "Northern Irish"ness


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM

People, people, people, enough of this haggling. I agree withe verything " Curator: has said. I lived in a nationalist area also ( New Lodge Road) and I for one would not do anything to allow the police access to my home, WHY - because they will be back to search the house and you can be sure they will find something ( planted by them). The police in Belfast are bigger gangsters than many of the criminals running around the streets. I do however feel it was utterly stupid for he I.R.A. to say they will shoot the ones responsible for Mc Cartney's murder. That sort of statement does nothing to help the situation. One problem I do have is why he was murdered ?. Was it on orders from the I.R.A ? or was it just a street brawl that gor out of hand. Loyalists are being murdered every other week but there is not the hue and cry to pin these murders on the U.F.F. or other loyalists organizations. I suspect Mc Cartney was a hood who was murdered by other hoods who just happened to be or have been members of the I.R.A. You have to remember that many young men joined the I.R.A. to help protect their districts and their homes and families of marauding lioyalists gangs, many with members of the police among them. These same men and women will leave the I.R.A. when this threat no longer exists but unfortunately the threat still exists and the I.R.A. will always be a reality until equality and justice is implemented and that is just not in the cards in the near future. I truly believe that if the I.R.A. was to disband, destroy all the weapons, in fact do everything asked by the govermnment it still would not be good enough. The loyalist want nothing else except their own wee 6 counties with not one catholic living there.

It would clear up a lot of questins if the authorities published the evidence linking the I.R.A. to the bank robbery as well. I believe you are innocent until proven guilty, unless of course you are connected to the I.R.A. - Publish the damn evidence or shut up about who they think is responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:18 PM

Well, your breaking new ground there, Jimmy C! In the weeks since the murder of Robert McCartney many things have been said about him but this is the first time I've heard him described as "a hood". Are you suggesting he deserved to be murdered? A little bit of IRA "house keeping"?

Oh, I see your logic - let the IRA shoot the perpetrators of this murder and then we can all go home and forget it ever happened. You're a quare geg, Jimmy.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:55 PM

Thanks Jimmy C at last an Irishman who's been there. Listen to the above and we know nothing, wait till Greg reads your reply! Always have you P's and Q's correct. He likes that kind of thing. (You know the type).


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:32 PM

It is an interesting phenomenon that there are now very few Republican threads being started. Just a few years ago it was a regular and routine feature. I had not noticed until it was pointed up here.

No Keith it is just common sense. Alot of people post from work and would like to keep their jobs. I have no doubt whatsoever that is unfathomable to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

Yes it is Guest.
Posting here can be completely anonymous.
Whatever the reason for the change, it is not fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:42 PM

I never said it was fear, I said it was commonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

surely you meant that posting Republican sentiments could lead to losing your job.
But no one knows who you are Guest!
And if you were a member you could use a code name, or you could post as a Guest anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:16 PM

I dont give a toss who minds their Ps and Qs. I dont mind people using anonymity out of fear either. But using anonymity to deceive people seems to be not really what they created Mudcat for.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM

Keith and Greg, you have both managed to put your own spin on a two line post. LoL do you believe NOTHING people say. C'mon now lads join me in The Wild Rover. Diddley Dee eh chaps? I'm gone. Too many experts here for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM

Guest " Meself alone" - please read my posting again. I did not suggest anything of the sort. I did say that it was utterly stupid for the I.R.A. to suggest such action. However I do believe that an entire organization can only be held responsible when individual members are carrying out the orders of the organization, and that does not appear to be the case. If you are to blame the organization then not only the I/R.A. but also the British Army, The R.U.C - The U.V.F etc should be responsible when any member crosses the line.

If you were to read some of my postings on earlier topics re Ireland you would see that I beiieve the I.R.A. was reborn out of necessity. If the nationalist communities had been able to feel safe in their homes, and feel protected by the police etc, then there would have been no need for the I.R.A. but that did not happen. Loyalists squads were intent on burning and mayhem and were aided and abetted by members of the security forces (not all of them of course) but enough to propel the nationalist areas to take care of themselves. Even the British Army did not help, they were only there a short while when they became bigger threats than the loyalists. It is clear that no matter what Sinn Fein does it will never be good enough for the loyalists politicians and I also do not believe that the Unionist Political Parties are not connected to the Loyalist Paramilitaries either. Where is you condemation and ouutrage when loyalists are being killed by loyalists , which happens more often than many people know, is that more loyalists house cleaning.

only ones responsible for this murder are the people who were involved in the fight and the stabbing, it does not matter that they were I.R.A./ U.V.F/ Masons/ Knights of Columbus/Mennonites/ Jehovah Witnesses or whatever, this was individuals and had nothing to do with any organization. In short - it has nothing to do with the I.R.A., but the authorities see things like this as an opportunity to further discredit Sinn Fein and they use all their resources ( Newspapers/ Radio/ Television etc). to do so.

Also, in the case of the bank robbery, Can you honestly tell me of one other country in the western world where an organization can be punished based on suspicion - because there has been no hard proof offered to the public to date. It is easy enough to claim that it is a security matter, that covers up a lot, if they had any real substantial proof it would have been on the front page of every newspaper in the world, but that has not happened. Get the proof before you all come forward with the accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:55 AM

After the killing witnesses were told it was IRA buisness and to forget what they had seen.
IRA and SF persons burned clothes and shoes,removed the weapon and cleansed the crime scene.
Demonstrations were organised to disrupt the police investigation.
I heard this from a McCartney family member's interview.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: mindblaster
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

Why can't they do something useful, like offer to shoot the entire British cabinet.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 10:17 AM

Greg, Raedwulf etc. I never once mentioned the word Republican in my post. You might want to read it again. You just love your labels don't you. Is that because it dehumanizes someone and therefore makes them easier to hate. So you assume I'm republican. That's a dangerous accusation. Can I assume that you are English because you seem to share a trait with a fellow country man Colonel Derek Wilford. Remember him. Incase you don't I'll enlighten. He was decorated for his PR skills apparently, on Bloody Sunday and seemed to justify his actions by proclaiming to the world and his wife that, "all nationalists are closet republicans." I am not a republican. Never really have been. I do however get anoyed when I see people writing things that they only have at best sketcy second hand knowledge. Yes I grew up in N. Ireland and yes I would agree Raedwulf that there aren't to many fence sitters in that province. I may be somewhat biased on my take on the situation there. But I am a product of the environment and I feel it necessary to address matters on topics pertaining to the nationalist perspective (see there's that word again). If I or Jimmy C or Ard or Peter K and a few others didn't then there would be a lot eroneus information presented to the uninitiated here as fact. I for one can't stand by and let that happen. I have never been a supporter of the IRA but on the other hand I was grateful for their protection in darker times. I suppose I didn't have the courage of my convictions. But on the other hand I'm still here unlike a lot of others I knew.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

immy, wake up and smell the balaclavas. The people of Northern Ireland – Catholic and Protestant – are sick to death of gangsters masquerading as patriots. Their influence invades just about every aspect of life and their greedy fingers are well ensconced in just about every pie you can think of.

However white you paint the events of Robert McCartney's murder (and that is exactly what it was), those who did it did so with the knowledge that their reputation as IRA/Sinn Fein members would ensure the silence and compliance any witnesses. The dogs in the streets of Belfast will tell you that. Just as they will tell you who robbed the Northern Bank.

Apologize for these thugs, if you will, but the cancer of paramilitarism heaps misery on the lives of thousands of people throughout Northern Ireland and ensures that peace is still years away.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM

I don't know if it is a measure of the regard in which the IRA is held, but have any of you noticed that few people speak against the organization and use their real names? I wonder why that is?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,A Realist
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM

You know the answer to that one Brucie. And so does everyone else. Just that some won't face up to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,an Observer
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:02 PM

"Turning, turning, turning through the years
Minutes into hours and the hours into years,
Nothing changes, nothing ever can,
Round and round the roundabout and back where you began,
Round and round and back where you began"

Sound familiar?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM

Guest Myself Alone.
eI am not apologising for anyone. I just think that the public have a right to hear and see the evidence. Accusations are not worth the time of day unless they are supported by someting concrete. The loyalist wanted to see evidence of decommisiooning even after reputable sources like De Chastelain etc all said that a large quantity of guns were destroyed. All in keeping with the G.F.A. - but again that was not good enough.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Show the evidence or shut up.

As far as the McCartney murder is concerned, if the perpetrators were not acting under orders from the I.R.A. then it has nothing to do with the I.R.A. any more than a loyalist murdering another loyalist has anything to do with the U.V.F. unless that organization condoned and ordered the hit.

You just cannot go around accusing people or organizations just because you think thay are responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

The family accepts that the murder was not sanctioned by the IRA.
They are saying that IRA and SF destroyed evidence and intimidated witnesses to silence.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:07 PM

Keuith,

With all due respect - how come the McCartney family are not intimated ?.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

The movement did not send any unit out to kill on that day. It was a pub brawl. There have been 11 deaths in 2004 due to boys coming out of pubs boozed up in the North. The differance in this case is yes members of a unit were invovled, and due to the fact they were volunteers the command took responsibility for their men and were prepared to deal with them. Volunteers know the rules according to the green book. The point which most of you are missing is that the differance between the Provisional command and the British Army is that when a serving member gets involved in an incident such as this, they expel the member then court marshal him or her. The British Army gave stripes to three such murderers in the North of Ireland and have yet to expel them from their ranks. Please stop knocking the Command, they are not at fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

Jimmy C, you still don't get it, do you? You seem to believe that because the loyalist gangsters behave badly, bad behaviour by republicans is somehow justified. They're all a bunch of thugs and the people deserve a break.

It appears to me that Sinn Fein is not now denying the fact that one or more of their members were involved. And as for evidence – if you were one of the 70 people in the bar that night, would you come forward with information? If you did, you'd be making a quick application to the witness protection programme.

I'm amazed that you try to separate these thugs from the IRA. If they claim to be "off duty" when committing murder, does that keep the IRA in the clear? If you've lived in Belfast you'll know the kind of fear an IRA man instills in his neighbours. Robert McCartney's crime was to "disrespect" one of these animals and he paid for it with his life.

Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM

If the McCartney's had agreed to the IRA shooting the murderers, they would be guilty of conspiracy to murder.
Their lawyer probably pointed this out to them before they gave their answer.

xLx


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM

Den - I did not "assume" that you are Republican (nationalist, or whatever other label you prefer). I said "You appear to be..." - there is a world of difference, & it was a very deliberate choice of words. I do not hate you (or anyone), & I don't define people by labels (might I ask, did you just "label" me? ;-) )

I just wish people would stop killing other people for bloody stupid reasons. Unfortunately, until both communities mature & expose the narrow-minded, socially under-developed bigots, it doesn't matter which side governs Ulster. The killing will continue.

In truth, I don't believe it's about politics anymore. We're all 'ruled', increasingly, by Brussels these days, & by the corporations. In 50 years time, it won't matter whether it's Dublin or Westminster that 'rule' Ulster. The killing will still be happening, because it's driven by hatred & money. They're none of them, on either "side", guerillas or freedom fighters. They're thugs, terrorists, gangsters, & it don't matter a damn what they claim they're fighting for.

Making excuses for them doesn't help either. Perhaps the "Command" didn't order the killing of Mr McCartney. Does it matter? He's still dead, the evidence has been destroyed, witnesses intimidated, & so on & so forth. Does the "Command" have no culpability in the creation of the social environment in which this can occur? Like buggery, it doesn't!

Regards,

R


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Den
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM

No I don't believe I labeled you at all unless I was wrong in assuming you were English.

Robert McCartney's "crime", as someone called it above, was from what I can gather to step into assist his friend Brendan Devine who had used "insulting language" to a group of known IRA men at a table. What happened next was from the accounts that I read an alcohol fueled brawl where Mr. McCartney lost his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM

You just love your labels don't you. Is that because it dehumanizes someone and therefore makes them easier to hate. So you assume I'm republican.

Well, you seem to have labelled me as a labeller! And given the reasons why I'm a labeller... I'm not bothered by this, Den, I'm just trying to make you stop & think about what you're saying & how you're saying it. (BTW the "making excuses" para wasn't directed at you, but I'm sure you realise that)

Yes, I am English & proud of it. Just as you're proud of being Irish. Nowt wrong with that. "I am proud of my race/nation because..." is fine, in my book (provided you're also aware of the crap things you've been responsible for too). It's when you cross the line into "We're better than you because..." that patriotism (a human trait) becomes bigotry (an all too human failing :( )...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

Yes it would be great if our two communites could live together, many get on fine in the workplace most of the time. There is a history in this country, which goes back eight hundred years. That history saw murder,rape and pillage. No one can honestly say there is nothing in their countries past that does not stir up some emotion.Understand that the Provisional movement does not go out to kill anyone for their faith. During the 1957 to 62 campaign known as Operation Harvest in the North it was stated that there would be no tolerance of mindless attacks on protestants. In 1972 the Army council issued a statement re affirming this.If any of you want to recall murders of the innocent, then yes there were mistakes made, has the chimp Bush stood up yet and said sorry to the families of the innocent in Iraq ? No unit of the Provisionals ever went out to kill a man for who his god was. Now don't go on about the I.N.L.A. or the C.R.F. These men came from the ranks of the Official I.R.A. The Provisionals do not bully the areas they live in, that's repeating the media image broadcasting Unionist/British Government sentiments.When I read some of the comments on this site attacking the Provisional movement, I see in my mind two types of people, those outside the country who's view in formed from news reports. And the other from people closer to home who maybe, just maybe was a little naughty at some stage of their life and had to be spoken to by someone from the movement.Anyway you are all free to hold an opinion, but calling the movement names and making unrealtic wishes isn't going to get you anywhere.The only thing which will make ground is if the D.U.P./Third Force are prepared to sit with the political representives of Republician areas and understand their position. I respect the traditions of the unionist community and respect their right to freedom of speech.Ease up on the venom lads.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

Den, Robert McCartney didn't just "lose his life" - he was murdered -stabbed, beaten with sewer rods and had his eye gouged out. The witnesses in the pub were then told not to call an ambulance. He was left to die in the street while his murderers destroyed all evidence in the pub.

Say it with me Den - "Robert McCartney was murdered".


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:51 PM

But it didn't end there, did it Den? For JimmyC's sake as well as yours, it's worth repeating that an announcement was made in the bar that the whole incident was "IRA business." Evidence was destroyed, and the tapes from security cameras were handed over to an IRA guy. (See the IRA statement, etc.)

Jimmy implies that it's an easy to defy the code and grass up the hoods, when he says: "how come the McCartneys were not intimidated?" He should know better. The way the McCartneys have stood up to be counted is exceptional and must have taken exceptional guts. They may well have paid a heavy price for their courage (the fact that they publicised the offer of reprisal shootings shows just how stupidly the IRA was thinking) - except that pretty much the whole of the intensely republican Short Stand community came on to the streets to support them.

"Laura" suggests the McCartneys were acting on legal advice when they turned down the IRA offer. According to their own account it was because they wanted justice, not revenge. She may think the McCartneys are liars. I believe them.

The Curator seems to think it quite acceptable in a democracy for a private army (allegedly on ceasefire) to "deal with" errant volunteers. But then he probably doesn't know it's a democracy because he's stuck in the past.

I'm just relieved that a recent poll shows Sinn Fein's electoral support holding up strongly despite the IRA's apparent determination to score own goals. With any luck the Provos will now disband, their job having been done long since. And if they don't, SF should kick them into touch. They've now got everything to gain, north and south, if they go for it through the ballot box and abandon the armalite.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM

Sorry, Curator, I wouldn't have posted as I just did if I'd seen your own last post - from which I realised I'd been misjudging you a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:14 PM

My God, has the Curator lost his mind (and memory) entirely? Trying to paint the Provos as some sort of honourable organization is simply unacceptable to most people in Northern Ireland. Attempting to re-write history and ignoring attrocities like The La Mon House massacre, in which the Provos incinerated members of a dog club by placing napalm bombs on window grilles, or the bombing of a Poppy Day gathering in Enniskillen, demonstrates approval of indiscriminate murder on a grand scale.

And don't counter by pointing out murders committed by loyalist gangs - they're every bit as bad and deserve the scorn of decent people everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

Meself Alone,

You are right, the loyalists also deserve the scorn of all decent people, however are they getting it ?. Why are their crimes not front page as well ? why is the McCartney murder warrant more publicity than the others ?. The people in the north of Ireland have known nothing but murder for a complete generation, it is obvious that anyone involved in a crime, especially murder would want to destroy evidence, what would you have them do?, wait around for the non-partisan police force, hopefully to get a fair trial.
I just think that you cannot blame an entire organization for the actions of a few. And if anyone out there thinks the I.R.A. is going to disband your are either wishful thinkers and very very naive. The surest way to bring back the bad days of the troubles is to make the nationalist community appear to be undefended. The threat the I.R.A. poses is the only thing keeping the loyalists in check. Why would they disband with the police force, british army and loyalists squads all armed , patrolling and living within minutes of some nationalists areas. Do you think they are stupid.?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM

"from people closer to home who maybe, just maybe was a little naughty at some stage of their life and had to be spoken to by someone from the movement"

Curator, you're one sick bastard. Are you referring to the thugs who shoot people's knee-caps off, or shoot teenagers through the palm of their hands in the now-in-vogue "Padre Pio" style "punishment" shootings?

Does a quick chorus of "Wrap the Green Flag Round Me, Boys" absolve these thugs from "the movement" of all criminality and elevate their deeds to a level alongside those of Henry Joy McCracken and Wolf Tone?

Get off the backs of the people of Belfast. Stop the racketeering, the thuggery and the murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 02:16 AM

Curator's posts show signs of transitions in his life. There is the period in the British army, an American "ass-whipping" phase, and the current bit with very Republican sentiments, "respect the Command of the PIRA" etc etc. Do these three aspects represent the chronology of your life, Curator? It would be very interesting to hear what motivated the changes, you must have had some very interesting experiences.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 04:15 AM

I must agree with meself alone it's shocking that for all those years cute little boys that never did anything wrong, were set upon by nasty men who just go out to shoot little kids standing at street corners bidding good day to passing old ladies. Yes I am proud to be a Republican, I have never made any secret of this. But were do you stand, besides your dislike for the movement ?I've got Gregs angle (he just doesn't like me).I am not going down the line of saying look at this event and that event with you. The two bombings you refer to were cock ups, the warnings didn't get called in, yes people died and it was wrong. The units who carried out these operations admitted that at the time, there was lack of experience on the ground.I myself am still waiting for the British Army and government to admit their cock up's. But then theres no point in entering into this with you. Really what drives you ? whats in your heart. Call me what you wish, (believe me I've got worst to my face), don't get wind up over the existance of the movement or what it's out to achieve. Have you had a bad experience at some point in your life, I'm not prying, just can't understand your bitterness.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:48 AM

Living in fear of the IRA never applied to me, certainly I was   apprehensive when stopped by an British Army-RUC patrol, I have had many unpleasant encounters with these bully boys
In the last election three hundred and thirty thousand nationalists voted for Sinn Fein, I did not see old men, old women, or young voters being dragged from their homes to vote, what an opportunity to get Sinn Fein off their backs, why did they not take this chance?, the answer to this question will of course be supplied by some on this Thread who seem to have the formula to all of our woes, and they don`t live here.

There was a couple of bye-elections yesterday in the Republic, let us wait and see how the Sinn Fein vote compares to their last election results in these areas, this will surely give some indication of how much an effect the present bombardment has damaged their vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM

The returns from the Meath bye-election in the republic shows Sinn Fein increasing their vote by almost 4%, as I forecast the media onslaught had no adverse effect on the vote.

Once again I modestly pat myself on the back, remember with everyone on a previous thread telling me I was wrong when I said that the Unionists would never agree to share power with the nationalists, as I keep repeating I live here, sorry I can`t help you with the result of the next Kentucky Derby or the English Derby, let me know near the day and I may be able to help.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM

Great to hear ard. The recent bank raid farce has opened a few more people's eyes to the ludicrous measures they will go to to discredit SF. Strength in numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:38 PM

Now if BOTH sides would just shoot ALL their followers.... instead of trying to shoot each others...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: andymac
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:04 PM

The fundamental thing here is not the rehashing of the rights and wrongs of past history, atrocities and wrongdoings, regardless of which side perpetrated them on the other. All that will do is further embitter an already bitter dispute and prolong the agonies for all who want to live peacefully.

The point is simply that a man was murdered and because the murderers concerned belonged to one of the paramilitary groups, their organisation has sought to protect them. If McCartney was a "hood" so what? I don't care, he was still murdered. If a criminal murders another criminal are we saying that's ok and that any further action on the murderer should be "vigilante style" (actually scrub that, there will be some on here that probably appeals to...)

When the pressure of public opinion. direct public action and the media attention was causing problems, possibly even with or perhaps because of the Meath bye-election looming, they then offered to "deal with the matter" internally and, stupidly, decided to publicise their offer. And these guys are paramilitary masterminds?

I salute the family for refusing to go along with this and I don't agree with Laura's slightly cynical comments about legal advice. I'm sure that the family could have agreed to the IRA offer and then feigned ignorance publicly once the men had been "dealt with"...

To me, as a Glaswegian with a brother and uncle living in Belfast (on either side of the "divide), there is no way forward until the people in NI accept the rule of law and not the rule of thugs, regardless of whether they are Loyalist or Republican thugs.

By all means argue about what those laws should be and how fair to either side they are; but until both sides put away their guns and bombs, no real progress can be made. The law is unfair but is less unfair than it used to be (eg police reforms), so work on that and build a momentum for change to a fairer legal system; dwelling on history helps no-one except the recruiters for either side.

So the loyalists want an Ulster with no Catholics and the Republicans want a United Ireland (presumably Protestant-free), neither side will get their way and compromises will have to made.

If it can happen in South Africa given the repressions and murders that were "legally" (if you count the Apartheid laws as legal) taking place there then it can happen in NI too. Perhaps we need a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" for NI?

Call me naive, call me idealistic, call me ignorant, but I've seen the corrosiveness of NI politics and bigotry in Glasgow, and while that's a fraction of what happens in NI, no-one who wants to live peacefully should have to live with such crap.

So the IRA "kept society peaceful"? Didn't the Krays do the same? Maybe they should have been thanked instead of jailed eh?
Get real guys... thugs are thugs, regardless of their "cause" and deserve all the invective and disgust we can muster.

Andymac


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA offers to shoot suspects
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 01:10 AM

IM GLAD I ENJOYED A BEER WHEN I VISITED
IRELAND 2 YEARS AGO


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Mudcat time: 12 May 11:41 PM EDT

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