Folklore: A long time in tune

Subject: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:27 AM

Very appropiate for St Patricks Day, I was reading of a Welsh-Norman scribe who accompanied the Normans to Ireland in the 12th century.

Far from being ambivalent toward the Irish he described them as,"barbarian", lazy, and wearing "odd" clothes, he then went on to say that they were of "splendid physique" and as for their musical skills on the Harp, he described it as "coming from the angels".

He considered them much superior to any others he had heard," they introduced and leave the rhythmic motifs so subtly, they play the tinkling sounds of the thinner strings above the sustained sound of the thicker strings so freely, they take such secret delight and caress the strings so sensuously that the greatest part of their art seems to lie in veiling it, as if," that which is concealed is bettered -art revealed is art shamed". Fair play to you Giraldus Cambrensis, well, the music descripition anyway.

Now I tell you, and this was the 12th century, this great art in music still continues to-day, pity about the "odd" clothes that hasn`t changed, bloody Jeans everwhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:38 AM

Erudite stuff Ard Macha, interesting too. I knew the Normans had 'invaded' Ireland, and I believe that this is the origin of the 'Fitz' prefix on some Irish surnames. I assume that their arrival there was a natural continuation of 1066 and all that. Were the English there already, or was this the first of the many takeover bids on Ireland?
A good St Patricks day to you.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:54 AM

The same Giraldus Cambrensis was also very keen on the skill in singing in harmony he found in northern England and Wales, an art in which he reckoned they were the main(or only?) exponents.
That's another inriguing thing worth remembering on this day when we all celebrate the results of poor Patrick's unlucky capture by Irish slavers. Opinions differ as to whether he was dargged from wales or Cumberland on that occasion, but it is interesting to speculate if he took any harmony skills with him, as well as his Christianity.
    Anyway, do turn up at the Bird in hand, Etruria, tonight, wwhen I hope jis and reels, and harmony singing, will be equally in evidence. Though I fear there won't be any harp players, unless someone turns up and surprises us.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:28 AM

John, the Normans started the grand tour around 1170 and liked to so much they decided to stay, becoming " more Irish than the Irish themselves", and you are right, Fitz is of Norman origin, meaning son of.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:35 AM

John: there had been plenty of English(and British, and Roman) incursions into Ireland previously(and vice versa), but it was certainly the Normans who had a serious go at conquest and settlement, laying the foundations for the subsequent 800 years of disasters!

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 07:35 AM

Normans in Ireland- it's where my surname comes from for one. A simple progression (Burgo ?)-> de Burgh-> de Burca->Burke. There was never enough land for the grasping Normans, and they took it anywhere they could, doing freelance incursions into Ireland almost as soon as they'd sobered up from Hereward's wake. Several apparently 100% Scottish names are actually Norman too.

I wonder if they left traces of their names in other areas they operated in, like Sicily and Constantinople?

Greg- any evidence of Roman incursions into Ireland? I know there's stuff like silverware, but that's usually put down to pirate raids.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM

The English never invaded Ireland till much later. It was those nasty French-speaking Normans who invaded and ravaged both England and Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:07 AM

GUEST Paul Burke.
I am fairly confident there is a 100% definite temporary small Roman fort find, somewhere near the northern Irish coast. Discovered within the last 50 years. Can't quote you chapter and verse, maybe someone will stop by here who could produce a link.

Subject: RE: Folklore: A long time in tune
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 03:26 PM

Greg, This was ridiculed by a Mr Slayman in an issuse of Archaeology, the supposed site was said to be near Drumanagh 15 miles north of Dublin.
I am sorry they never settled here we could have entertained them with some great music and while they listened enchanted, we could have robbed them blind.