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BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...

ejsant 26 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM
Bobert 25 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 25 Mar 05 - 05:01 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM
CarolC 25 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM
Once Famous 25 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM
EagleWing 25 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM
Uncle_DaveO 25 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM
Uncle_DaveO 25 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM
CarolC 25 Mar 05 - 01:37 PM
John Hardly 25 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 25 Mar 05 - 12:29 PM
ejsant 25 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM
Amos 25 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM
Greg F. 25 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM
John Hardly 25 Mar 05 - 09:46 AM
Amos 25 Mar 05 - 09:36 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM
John Hardly 25 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM
Bobert 25 Mar 05 - 07:53 AM
John Hardly 25 Mar 05 - 06:58 AM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM
Donuel 24 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 24 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Mathilda 24 Mar 05 - 10:03 PM
Donuel 24 Mar 05 - 09:46 PM
Bobert 24 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 05 - 07:53 PM
GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 24 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 07:01 PM
Don Firth 24 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM
GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM
John Hardly 24 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 24 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM
Alice 24 Mar 05 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 01:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 05 - 01:18 PM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 05 - 11:30 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM

Greetings All,

What if indeed Terri wished for her life not to be sustained whilst in this state? If indeed this is the case and she, as has been contended, does indeed have some level of awareness of her circumstances, then think about the mental anguish and torture she may be going through.

I would think that if indeed Terri wished to have her life sustained through scientific means regardless of her state of physical or mental ability and she indeed has some level of awareness she is also going through a great deal of mental anguish and torture knowing that her life is not being sustained.

This is why I cannot have an opinion about the merits of either side in this particular case. I simply do not posses the wisdom necessary. To "err on the side of life" may cause suffering as may erring on the side of "right to die".

This ethical conundrum to me is a direct effect of man's (species not gender) ego interfering in the design and balance when we do not, and in my opinion will never, have the necessary wisdom or understanding.

I pray that the Lord brings peace to Terri, her whole family, and all on all sides of this issue that have invested their emotions in the compassionate way they have.

Peace,
Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

Well, as fir death being blackness? Hey, no one can say one way or another but I don't *believe* it to be that way, but quite the opposite... But again, that is my *belief*... Others may wish to think of death in black and dark terms but those of Faith know in their hearts it's just not so...

You want proof? I don't have. Nor do those who think of death as darkness...

Some really nice posts here today as Terry's body gets closer to being released... Just symbolically I'm kind a hopin' the body is released on Easter. That would be real nice and just might be somewhat heeling for those who have become so emotionally involved, on both sides of the issue...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM

I would never leave such a responsibility to one person, it is an onerous task for anyone. As a parent, I would never say her parents have no right to a say in her fate. Where there was disagreement amongst the family, the State has taken a stand, wether we agree with it or not it has happened. May we all learn from it, and progress as much in wisdom as we have in time and technology.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:01 PM

That is a lovely post, Dave.

In this case, however, it is the husband who has the most rights and also the most responsibilities with regard to Terri and how her own wishes in this matter might best be carried out. And that is what the courts have determined consistantly throughout this whole ordeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM

We progress in time and technology but with little wisdom.

Other Mudcatters have posted similar situations and experiences. They all acted with loving compassion on behalf of their family members. To use cold logic should be a function of a legal system only when there is no loving family to act on our behalf. Where there is disagreement amongst the family (and apparently some medical experts involved in this case) they should err on the side of the Hippocratic teachings and do no harm... To do otherwise is not acting in a humane and dignified manner for the patient or the living family members who are also casualties/victims.

Terri is brain dead therefore feeling no pain that we know of, she cannot suffer the mental and physical trauma her parents are living with. There is a duty to respect their wishes, and protect what little sanity they can muster in such circumstances. There will come a time when the inevitable happens and she will pass on completely, therefore there is no need to rush the event. Our thoughts and prayers should go out to them, and to all involved with making these difficult decisions.

God, Grant them all the wisdom to act, and peace to live with the consequences.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM

CT Scan of Terri Schiavo's Brain, 1996


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Dave (tam), it's nice to see you here again. In the case of Terri Schiavo, there is not much left of her brain, mostly just the stem and a lot of spinal fluid filling the space where the rest of her brain used to be. The doctors who have been involved with this case for many years have said that she is not reponsive. The little bit of footage you have seen is just about all there is among the many hours of footage that exist in which she doesn't just blankly stare off into space, and the doctors have determined that what looks like responsiveness in the footage you have seen is not what it appears to be. That is why the state she is in is called "persistant vegetative state". The only brain activity they have been able to detect is what is required to keep the heart pumping and other autonomic nervous system and reflexive activity.

I am sorry to read that your daughter is having to be fed through a tube. I don't know the circumstances you and your daughter are facing, but I wish you the best of luck with everything, and my best thoughts and wishes go to you and your family for whatever help and comfort you and they need at this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

Guys like this Eagle Wing character think it's OK to starve a woman but a crime to starve a dog.

Typical double standard found in the far left liberal diseased mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

Dear Frank, Food and water is a very basic human need, (I have to tube feed my own daughter) In the case of Terri whatever happened to her body/brain did not kill her; only her ability to communicte her wishes, and her ability to feed herself was lost. Death would be ensured without nutrition, and in a most horrible manner. In my opinion (I am very familiar with death by stavation having seen much of it in third world countries) kindness would be a massive dose of morphine, but illegal for anyone in our system to administer; and that is the issue for me legislated starvation is not in my opinion a humane death for anyone.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: EagleWing
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me.

If you had fully read this and the other threads on the subject you would realise that this is not the issue.

When a person is dying the need for food and water switch off. What has been happening is that her ability to switch off has been denied by artificially feeding her. And that has been the case for many years.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

I do not know all the details of this case, but I am sure it is almost impossible to obey any form of the Hippocratic Oath, and condone what is happening here. Her privacy, and the families privacy, have been totally compromised. The doctors and nurses are suffering trauma, trying to comply with all the legislation and diverse wishes of the family. The only time I have seen the patient, she seems to have some sort of brain activity. To starve her to death is not in my mind an act of kindness. Doctors can sometimes be wrong about the level brain activity present. I doubt if many people would want to exist in any vegetative state, a Do Not Resucitate order would be appropriate, and even turning off machines that provide breathing and heart functions would be a fast death, but the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM

Amos opined:

Those who never have see only deathful blackness as her fate and are understandably outraged at such a possibility. The idea of slipping into permanent unbeing is horrible and compelling; but it ain't so. To them, living as a vegetable is better than the not-existing of death. Any sensation is better than no sensation.

Not so. I see death as a pure end, "deathful blackness" in your words. (Actually I'd prefer the word "blankness" to "blackness". Even that word implies a mind to perceive it, but I guess we're bound to verbal expression here, and I don't know how to express anything like that when I as a mind just do not exist. I am as convinced as is possible that there is nothing further when the operations of the body no longer make consciousness operate. Just the same, I agree with Terri: If I'm in a situation like that, pull the plug, remove the tube or whatever. Both for myself (if a chemical process being forced to continue operation can be called "me") and as a kindness to my friends and loved ones, get it over.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

McGrath of Harlow said, in part:

Once again, even if the legal process may have been artificially and even perversely extended, it had been extended. Otherwise all processes in all courts would have ceased, and they hadn't.

In essence, as I see it, M of H, you are saying that as long as one party chooses to keep filing papers with courts (no matter with how little or actually no merit legally), everything has to be put on hold.

Anyone can file a complaint or a petition with a court; there's no filter that says the paper actually has to have factual or legal merit. I can file a complaint against George Bush, claiming that he physically assaulted me. It's not true (I'm sure you'll be relieved to learn), but I can file the suit. It will take a while before the court deals with it. That delay should not hold up anything else, unless there is some apparent possibility of my carrying the burden of proof. Possibly not then. After my suit is defeated--or indeed, maybe thrown out of court as frivolous--I can file another one, which will take some time to deal with.

The fact that there are and may continue to be legally and factually groundless complaints filed is not significant.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:37 PM

Correction. My last post should read...

...but they did do damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM

I did not say that, thank you. I don't need words stuffed into my mouth -- too many in there already.

You? Too many words?! ...well, maybe...but I generally like the artistry you show in the order in which you put those words - even if I don't agree with the conclusions you draw!

Why, then are you proposing heroic measures to prevent the natural process from occurring?

I'm actually not. All I've contended is...

1. If Terry had had an actually living will this whole thing would never have happened (and that a court's determination of what her will was/would have been is not the same thing).

2. That our justice system and rule of government has not suffered -- unless you, like me, worry that the steps that have, through this case, been made in the legal right to euthanize pose a future threat. That, after all, is the special interest-political side that actually, practically, pragmatically won this case (not the "religious right" -- they LOST). Terry is going expire.

We are not talking about killing her -- her disease did that long ago. We are talking about turning off an artificial intervention which according tot he medical experts has no hope of improving her condition.

And those artificial means are used to keep many others alive -- many others who are a burden to their caregivers and it would be far more convenient to let them expire as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:29 PM

They may not have won, John, but they did to damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM

Greetings John Hardly,

"What you are saying is that Terry's family MUST agree with the findings as if they were the wishes of Terry, regardless of how well they may think they knew(know?) Terry themselves, and, unless they come to the acceptance of the court's decision as being the same as having been clearly written by a Terry, healthy and of sound mind, any legal contesting they do is underhanded and sinister."

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that I do not believe based upon their actions that Terri's parents would have simply accepted a written statement of their daughter's wishes with out contest, unless of course her wishes agreed with her parents.

Please understand, I do not condemn her parents for their actions. With the Grace of God I have yet to face these decisions as they would relate my wife or to one of my children. Believe I thank the Lord each day for being spared this.   

Well we have found a part of this truly sad and unfortunate situation that we agree on. There is not doubt that Terri's parents are unhappy with the courts' rulings. And they are entitled to pursue any legal means available to them. As I have stated repeatedly, my disagreement is solely with the action taken by the Legislative and Executive branches of our Government last weekend. They clearly, on an individual case basis, attempted to subvert our system of government. Yet they have not taken action on the countless other cases of this nature either currently being fought in the courts or those past. This to me is called political pandering and we should carefully consider re-electing those that participated.

Greetings All,

The very thought of an elected Governor, one that has sworn an oath to uphold the laws of the State in which he was elected, threatening to take unilateral action troubles me more than, well almost anyway, the action taken in Washington, DC. Wasn't ridding Iraq of a dictator a prime justification for our invasion used by the very brother of the "Governor" that now has contemplated this unilateral action?

McGrath…, Do you see what a can of worms has been opened by the blatant disregard of our system of governance by the Congress and President?

Peace,
Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM

John:

I did not say that, thank you. I don't need words stuffed into my mouth -- too many in there already.

Why, then are you proposing heroic measures to prevent the natural process from occurring? We are not talking about killing her -- her disease did that long ago. We are talking about turning off an artificial intervention which according tot he medical experts has no hope of improving her condition.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM

DON!

How dareyou! The BuShites engaging in that sort of sleight of hand?? I'm appalled you could even suggest such a thing. You must be one a them "ennermies of Amerika".

But its really working WELL for them, ain't it?

"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste or intelligence of the American people."

H.L. Mencken


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:46 AM

um.

Amos,

Those who are outraged, to a greater degree than those who are thrilled at the prospect of her death, do believe in an afterlife.

But that's great rationale -- kill because the dead are better off than we.

you kill me, Amos. :^)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:36 AM

There are two kinds of folks in the world, and no value judgement intended -- those who have had a whiff of being outside of the body, and those who ain't had a whiff they can remember or care to think of.

Anyone who has knows that Terry Schiavo will be much happier when she has a shot at recycling, or going off exploring, or whatever it is you believe happens after the body's energy-grid folds and you can finally get away from it.

Those who never have see only deathful blackness as her fate and are understandably outraged at such a possibility. The idea of slipping into permanent unbeing is horrible and compelling; but it ain't so. To them, living as a vegetable is better than the not-existing of death. Any sensation is better than no sensation.

But get over it. If Terry Schiavo dies from the sleepy dream like checkout process of starving, she will be fine. If she dies because she gets drowned in a huge stack of reporters, she'll be fine. If she dies because her brain stops functioning at some point, whatever the precipitate cause, she'll be fine. When you die, you'll be fine, too.

At least she isn't being offered a violent trauma as her exit. That can really mess up your judgment about what to do next.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

McGrath, you are just plain wrong and/or wrongly informed about the US judicial process, when a stay is issued, and what the procedures are for appeals. You also seem happy as a pig rolling in mud to remain ignorant of both the process and facts of the case.

I'm guessing you are doing this because you don't want to come out and admit you are on the side of the parents. Why, I don't know, but I'm guessing (again) that you are uncomfortable finding yourself on the same side as the anti-abortion Right to Life extremists who have hijacked this issue for their own political purposes.

Many people here have patiently tried to explain the process and the points of the case to you, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the explanations or educate yourself.

Not a terribly enlightened approach, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM

they didn't win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:53 AM

No, actually they did win, John... They bent over fir the Christain Right and demonstrated to just what extremes they would go to accomodate the the CR... Now the next step is how they will use this to further consolodate power...

"Yes, ladies and gentlemen. The Deocrats are no longer just happy in their thirst for blood that they now will not only kill your babies but if you get sich, they'll starve you to death."

Yeah, the Bush people couldn't be happier...

They will use this to ram their "activist" right wing judges down out throat by saying that "we need judges who aren't murderes"...

Yes, I smell Karl Rove all over this one...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 06:58 AM

except for the obvious...

...they didn't win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM

McGrath, the thing you don't seem to realize about the effect that this travesty of justice could potentially have on our system is that if these people are successful in weakening and/or abolishing judicial oversight (as Donuel put it), they can use the very same powers they have gained, using Terri Schiavo as their tool, to do exactly the opposite of what they are saying they are doing now. They will also be able to kill people more easily in a system that lacks judicial oversight. Think about it for just a minute.

These are the powers you seem to be advocating that these people be allowed to have. The system of checks and balances in our country was put there for a very, very good reason. So that no branch of government can become too powerful on its own. The people who are trying to do an end run around the judicial system are trying to weaken our system of checks and balances. These are the three pillars of our system of government, and they are also the protection that the citizens of this country were given to protect us against tyranny. I, for one, would not like to see these protections taken away from us by a bunch of fanatical Christian Ayatollas, or power hungry politicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

Bobert, take hope. The nations of fumdamenatlist religous state govenrments are starting to eye democracy as a feasible alternative.

Who knows, maybe the US will be next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM

100% BS politics by the neocons... Nice to own the microphone... Oh, if Clinton had Karl Rove, the master of manipulation...

Hey folks, in case you ain't figured it yet. We ain't got government any more... You can put a fork in it... We have *rulerment*... Might as well get used to hearing it 'cause until the few so-called Repbs 'round here get it, that's what I'm gonna be callin' it. *RULERMENT* (Sorry for scramin').

Democracy is over!!! Everyone just go home!!! Nuthin' to see here!!! Really... nuthin.....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Mathilda
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:03 PM

and can I ask what the Families of the other Patients in this Hospice are feeling..or the Patients in the Hospice with the Media and Circus outside holding 24/7 vigils, beating drums and chanting...yeah really compassionate ....letting these other poor souls die with dignity....and how does this Hospice feel...
I know I would be disgusted as I am not of the faith that most of these Vigilantes are...so much for the other Patients in this Hospice going there to pass peacefully and with care and concern...with their Family or Friends with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:46 PM

A stated objective of this neocon administration has been to abolish judicial oversight.

The shell game with Terry right to life hysteria and Jeb Bush's decree to take custody of Terry ( Which was ruled as illegal as kidnapping anyone the govenor choses ) as well as the threatened abolition of filibuster which would allow ultra conservative judges to be appointed all point to abolishing judicial oversight.

By either demonizing democratic judges as being evil murderous activist judges or appointing judges who will do the bidding of neocon values by throwing away Congressional rules, the result is essentialy the same - an abolition of judicial oversight.

Passing laws for one person, making decrees of letting the state take custody of a person, talking head nonsense by Pat Boone and Pat Rpbertson... it all makes for an interesting game of chess which is a power play far removed from helping a brain dead woman.

Of course this is only my informed opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM

Well, opne danged thing is fir sure.... We ain't heard nuthin' about Social Security, Medicaid, the dollar tankin', 'er much of anythign about the other *lesser* issues....

That, I think was the original motivation behind me satrting this thread...

Nevermind, and now...

Back to Terri...















Or more appropraitely stated... Terri's body.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:53 PM

The point it, after it had reached what appeared to be an ending, it was then restarted. Maybe it shouldn't, maybe that was an abuse of process and all that stuff, but it meant the consequence was a continuing legal process with a theoretical possibility that it might reach a different conclusion.

In those circumstances, to persist with the withholding of nourishment from Terri with a view to bringing about her death inevitably became as an attempt to interfere with that legal process.

The suggestion appears to be that there is no way under the American system to reach an actual final end to a process under the legal system. Not a situation where all court activity should stop, but one where it does in fact stop, regardless of whatever anybody might wish.

..........................
No, I wasn't thinking of you, Carol, when I expressed concern at the way people fall into the trap of collectively demonising those on the other side. But even on the Mudcat there have been plenty of examples of it, on both sides. And it happens time and time again in a wide range of issues, and not just in the Mudcat or on the Internet.

It seems to me a symptom of a political/ethical culture in serious trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

But to answer McGrath, again--the tubes were not removed until AFTER the legal process was complete.

Congress & Dubya intervened AFTER the legal process had run it's course, and AFTER the tubes had been removed LEGALLY--AFTER ALL APPEALS HAD BEEN EXHAUSTED AND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM DENIED.

That is the most extraordinary aspect of this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM

The timeline of this case shows that every substantive issue has been argued before numerous courts before and the case itself has been placed before the U.S. Supreme Court several times. In each case the Supreme Court, overwhelmingly conservative, I should add, has refused to consider the appeal.

Not even the Florida state legislature would pass an emergency measure earlier this week to override the courts.

The Rev. Pat Robertson has now urged Gov. Bush to send in state police or troops to forcibly remove Terri to a place where she'll be "safe," regardless of the law or the Constitution.

Randall Terry now promises "Hell to pay." Terri is being compared to the crucified Christ, the courts to the Sanhedrin, etc., etc.

The repeated appeals are now a carnival being carried out largely for political and propaganda purposes. The courts have implicitly recognized this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:01 PM

Your post is a good one, GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM, except I wonder if this wording is the most accurate: "The supporters of Terri Schiavo".

I don't think I would necessarily call the people who are trying to keep Terri Schiavo in a persistant vegetative state indefinitely, her "supporters", if you know what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

Just a side note, if anyone is interested:   All this business about Terry Schiavo has driven what is going on in the Middle East out of the news. It has also eclipsed whatever has been happening in the wake of Tom DeLay's being charged with ethics violations.

The magician's trick is to keep you watching one hand while he actually does the trick (or hides the bunny) with the other.

Just a thought. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM

McGrath: here is the piece you seem to be missing. The courts HAD finished the appeals process, and the tube was removed. But then Congress intervened, passing a NEW law, which forced the appeals process to start all over again.

Again--the feeding tube was not removed before the legal process ended. The appeals to prevent removal of the tube had gone all the way the US Supreme Court, the highest legal authority in the US. When the US Supreme Court and the Florida Supreme Court (the highest legal authority in the State of Florida) refused to overrule the trial judge who ordered the tube removed, that meant the tube HAD to be removed.

So AFTER the legal process ended, and there were no more appeals that could be followed, the trial judge then, and only then ordered the tube removed.

It was AFTER the tube was legally removed that the Congress intervened, and attempted to do an end run around the courts, and start the whole process from square one again, as if no court proceedings had ever occurred.

The feeding tube was not removed before the legal process ended.

The legal process HAD ended. It had gone to the US Supreme Court. Congress had to invent and pass a whole new law to start the legal process over again.

Now, the US Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, has spoken. The supporters of Terri Schiavo are now insisting that Gov Jeb Bush violate the court order to stay out of the hospice and away from Terri Schiavo (issued yesterday, when he tried to use his "executive privlege" to intervene again and take Terri into protective custody), kidnap Terri Schiavo from her hospice, take her to a hospital, and reinsert the tube.

That is what we are dealing with here. They are claiming that their "God's law" (and remember, we have no official religion in this country) should be allowed to trump US law.

That is what


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM

No, I have not suggested that the parents are political opportunists. My own feeling about their likely motivation is that they want to try to give some meaning to their daughter's short and tragic life. The political opportunists are the people (politicians and religious extremists) who are using whatever deep need the parents have for wanting to prolong their daughter's existance in her current condition, to their political advantage. And make no mistake... that is precisely what is happening.

This issue is in no way about anyone's "right to life". It is, for everyone with the possible exception of Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers, about some politicians' need to get elected/re-elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM

Clearly there are political opportunists involved in this, as in most controversial issues.

The judgement that her parents are such, and are not motivated by what they see as their daughters interests is one which would require more evidence than has been presented in the media coverage which I have seen. The fact that people may disagree witrh their judgement is quite a separate isasue.

I've used the expresion "demonisation" a couple of time in this thread. What I mean is an apparent insistance by some people (on both sides) on seeing those with whom they disagree as uniformly insincere and essentially malevolent.
.........................
However all that is beside the narrow point which I have been trying to make about the importance of rigorously working through the legal process, even when it is felt that it is being abused and distorted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM

"I believe their continuing to contest what has been established as Terri's wishes after years and years of court proceedings indicates that irrespective of how Terri's wishes were conveyed, orally or written, they would have contested them if indeed they were contrary to their own wishes"

I don't. What you are saying is that Terry's family MUST agree wih the findings as if they were the wishes of Terry, regardless of how well they may think they knew(know?) Terry themselves, and, unless they come to the acceptance of the court's decision as being the same as having been clearly written by a Terry, healthy and of sound mind, any legal contesting they do is underhanded and sinister.

Surely, whether they chose to contest it or not you can see that they might not accept the court's opinion of what Terry might have wanted with the same credence with which they might accept a living will in Terry's own hand (from her own lawyer, drafted in healthier times)?

The court's determination of what Terry might or might not have wanted is not necessarily the same thing as what Terry wanted. They did not have the advantage of talking to Terry -- that's what a living will would have done. They took their decision based on hearsay testimony. Yes, maybe enough to take the legal decision, but surely not imperically clear-cut. It may have been and it may not have been, but to disagree with their decision does not imply sinister intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

Sure, with enough money and people with oportunistic political motivations, they could, theoretically, force force Terri's body to continue to function at it's current level until all of the rest of Terri's family is dead. Does this serve anyone's interest other than those of the political opportunists? Personally, I'd have to say, no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM

Once again, even if the legal process may have been artificially and even perversely extended, it had been extended. Otherwise all processes in all courts would have ceased, and they hadn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM

Talking heads on Fox News have said, within the past hour that the judiciary is attempting to usurp the functions of government and "The judicial branch is out of control."

Anyone who believes this should read the timeline at the link provided by Alice.

Now it's being reported that Terri's family is considering a new appeal on the ground that she may have become ill from an attempted murder by strangulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Alice
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:51 PM

McGrath, here is a timeline of the case to show step by step how the courts have decided this issue, through numerous appeals. As Carol said, the legal system was followed to its completion. It is the politicians now wanting to make hay with their followers who have now meddled in the case.
http://www.wpbfnews.com/news/4295429/detail.html Schiavo Case Timeline


Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

...basically, all the courts are doing now is saying, "No. We told you before, and we are telling you again... no, you may not replace the feeding tube."


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:33 PM

They were finally and irrevocably completed a long time ago, McGrath, according to the laws of the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM

I still can't see any valid logic for pulling the tubes until all the court battles were finally and irrevocably completed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:18 PM

This is the key to what some of us have been saying McGrath. Fortunately, some people even on Bush's side of the political isle have seen the potential for harm to our system of government inherent in the political shennanigans these political opportunists have been pulling...

The decision by the White House yesterday to distance itself from the dispute was seen as an acknowledgement that Mr Bush's previous intervention in the affair had raised concerns among fellow conservatives opposed to blurring the lines between the executive and the judiciary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM

Supreme court rejects feeding tube appeal

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:30 AM

But the legal process has not been concluded. Maybe it should have, and maybe it is being prolonged improperly for all kinds of reasons, and maybe none of this should have happened - but, once again, the only place where that can be determined is through the legal system.

Up until that point, all legal decisions in this case have to be treated as provisional, and no irrevocable action should be taken in the meantime.
..........

Whatever, I can't see how it can be appropriate for anyone to seek to demonise the parents in this case, merely because they disagree with their view as to what is the right thing to do for their daughter.


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