BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die

Subject: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM

I flinch every time I hear the phrase "starved to death" in reference to the Schiavo case, or any other case involving the withholding or removal of feeding tubes, because it just isn't accurate. The use of the emotionally loaded term creates an image in the mind of someone dying an excruciatingly painful death. Nothing could be further from the truth.

When feeding tubes are withheld or withdrawn, the death is actually very gentle and peaceful, which is why end of life care advocates and supporters of the right to die with dignity (which, according to the latest ABC News poll was 87% of the 1,000+ people polled) are so opposed to what is being done to Terri Schiavo by her Right to Life activist parents.

Here is an article from ABC News that explains exactly what happens physically to a person when a feeding tube is removed, or when the death process is occurring naturally (ie the person is refusing to eat and drink). I hope it helps those of you who are so confused about what the removal of the feeding tube will actually do to Terri Schiavo.

I'll provide some of the highlights of the article here, as the link won't be good for long:

"The process of starving to death seems very barbaric but in actuality is very peaceful," said Dr. Fred Mirarchi, assistant clinical professor of emergency medicine at Drexel University College of Medicine in Philadelphia.

"The patient's experience is really pretty benign," said Dr. Joanne Lynn, a hospice physician associated with Americans for Better Care of the Dying, a group working for improved end-of-life care. "Overwhelmingly, what will happen is nothing."

Lynn, who has worked with numerous families facing end-of-life situations, said most patients who are removed from life support will die within a matter of a few days or weeks.

"Some people can last four or five days — some people can last 20 days," she said...

The Body Begins Shutting Down

The physical process of dying after life support is removed follows a pattern familiar to hospice workers. And the fact that Schiavo is in a vegetative state will likely make her death faster and less painful, Lynn said.

"It depends on whether she has the ability to swallow anything — and if that anything is offered," she said. "If she's unable to swallow anything, the course toward dying, so far as anyone can tell, is fairly comfortable."

Most patients who cannot eat or drink will enter a physical state known as ketosis. During ketosis the body begins to use fat and muscle as a fuel source.

In advanced cases of ketosis, the nervous system response is dulled, and patients rarely feel pain, hunger or thirst. There is also some evidence that ketosis can produce a state of well-being or mild euphoria.

Family members and friends are often surprised to find that a terminal patient's eyes will open and they will appear to glance around the room. "It's very confusing on an emotional level," said Lynn.

But Lynn explained that the part of the brain-controlling eye movement is actually very primitive and can remain active even after other parts of the brain appear to have stopped functioning.

Patients are also likely to experience irregular breathing.

"Cyclical breathing is very typical," Lynn said, adding that in some cases the patient will breathe very rapidly, then take just one or two breaths per minute.

Over time, the patient will become more and more dehydrated and will eventually develop kidney failure, Mirarchi explained.

"Patients at this point are uremic — filled with bodily toxins — and are unaware of their surroundings," Mirarchi said. "They develop electrolyte imbalances that eventually cause an abnormal beating of the heart."

In the final moments of life, the abnormalities in the patient's heart rate known as arrhythmia are common.

"The heart will then stop and the patient will die," said Mirarchi.

The efforts of caregivers may in some cases complicate the death of the patient. Giving a patient water, for example, may prolong the process.

"Going without water makes it more gentle," Lynn said. "Allowing chemicals [in the blood] to cause arrhythmia is more merciful."

_________________________

Perhaps the greatest ironies of all this, is that Terri Schiavo's body had already begun this process 15 years ago, but it was stopped by medical intervention in an attempt to save her life. However, the intervention couldn't reverse the effects of the death process in her case, hence her permanent vegetative state.

Another irony that hasn't escaped me is the woman's initial heart attack is believed to have been caused by an eating disorder, and now this whole fiasco has resulted in her being force fed because of her parent's wishes.

Sad and pathetic doesn't even begin to cover the scope of this woman's tragic life and artificially prolonged death.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:39 PM

I've seen what is described here, up close, with parishioners. The body has its own wisdom about letting go. We used to honor that back 'way in tribal times, not force people to do what makes US more comfortable.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

Actually, a generation ago this was the norm because there weren't any medical alternatives for most people. Ya just died.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:26 PM

How will she die?

Publicly, on display, and without the simple respect we could have afforded her. She will be a spectacle and a cause of a people virtually without values and now, forever, without grace of which I am sad to be a member..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

http://www.topix.net/news/terri-schiavo

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:37 PM

I'm annoyed, quite, that Schiavo's parents are said to be "devout Catholics." Here are some excerpts from the teaching of the Catholic Church on the prolongation of life:

The first explicit discussion of these questions is by Francisco di Vittoria, a Spanish Dominican theologian whose Relectiones Theologicae were originally published in 1557, 10 years after his death. In this work, Vittoria considered the moral obligation to use food to prolong life. He declared:

    If a sick man can take food or nourishment with a certain hope of life, he is required to take food as he would be required to give it to one who is sick. However, if the depression of spirits is so severe and there is present grave consternation in the appetitive power so that only with the greatest effort and as though through torture can the sick man take food, this is to be reckoned as an impossibility and therefore, he is excused, at least from mortal sin.

And there is this:

Maintaining that the life of a fatally ill person need not be prolonged does not imply that the person should be neglected. Every dying person should be given spiritual and physical care. A person whose spiritual function is irreparably lost is still a human being. We have a moral obligation to keep such patients comfortable. In regard to patients who may experience pain, the teaching of the Church, (once again utilizing the principle of double effect) is quite clear. After declaring that physical suffering is unavoidable and that some Christians may choose to join their suffering with the sufferings of Christ, the Church states:

    Nevertheless it would be imprudent to impose a heroic way of acting as a general rule. On the contrary, human and Christian prudence suggest for the majority of sick people the use of medicines capable of alleviating or suppressing pain, even though these may cause as a secondary effect semiconsciousness and reduced lucidity. As for those who are not in a state to express themselves, one can reasonably presume that they wish to take these painkillers, and have them administered according to the doctor's advice.... In this case, of course, death is in no way intended or sought even if the risk of it is reasonably taken; the intention is simply to relieve pain effectively, using for this purpose painkillers available to medicine.

The obligation to keep patients comfortable leads some to demand artificial hydration and nutrition for all patients in order to avoid physical suffering, even for those persons who are in an irreversible coma.18 But is there any medical indication that persons in this condition feel physical pain? The neurological experts consulted in the Brophy case did not think so. Moreover, in hospices and infirmaries of religious sisters, the latter institutions being the embodiment of compassionate care for the dying, artificial hydration and nutrition are seldom used once a dying patient lapses into a coma. In sum, evidence seems to be lacking that removing or withholding tube feeding from individuals in a deep coma or a persistent vegetative state results in great pain for the patient.

WERE her parents "devout Catholics" would not be doing what they are doing. You can read the whole discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM

GUEST:

Have some guts and get a name.


You are not much better than the people you are bitching about, because rightly or wrongly, they are out there making their point. If you are so set on this story, you need to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Nancy King
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:16 PM

I was glad to see Guest's explanation of the dying process when a feeding tube is removed. I too have been bothered by people saying she would "starve to death," because I know that is not what happens. When the feeding tube was removed in my father's case, some family members were concerned that he was not to get water, fearing he would be uncomfortable. It was pointed out that if he were hydrated, then he would indeed starve to death, a very painful way to go. As it was, his kidneys shut down after a few days and he went quietly and peacefully. Too bad Terri Schiavo is being denied peace and quiet.

Nancy

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:31 PM

Some things to mull over:

1) Congress going out of the way to make political hay out of a tragedy==that should have been resolved years ago.
2) NPR coverage allowing an edited comment by the mother--just one sentence after the reporter stating that Congress will convene a special session for this matter Sunday---"...behind me my daughter is starving to death". Talk about slanting the news---ala FOX
3) A tragedy that is being multiplied by the political interests and the intransigence of the poor woman's parents (though I feel for them and their hurt---but legally her husband is the final arbiter and not them regarding her care)(here I speak of personal experience).
4) Given that the poor lady is basically "brain dead", "comatose", call it what you will---does no one think it more torturous to constantly remove and then re-insert a feeding tube. Talk about the hypocrisy of the well meaning individuals---well meaning individuals who believe in the "right to life" but deny a dignified death to those in sore need of such. These same people believe in that wonderful right to life----and will murder for it. Seems hypocritical to this simple person who sees gray areas and not black/white resolution to things

Life is not always the answer. Think about this---our religious zealots will have us believe in the wonderful hereafter. Well, why won't they let people go to this wonderful Nirvana? You have to wonder. Could hypocrisy be an answer, could politics, could it be just a simple situation of "...I want things done only as I see fit".?
\\
Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:39 PM

Many of us I would guess have experienced a sick or old pet discontinuing food and water, and further, have gone through their pet trying to remove themselves from people in order to die. I suppose that not being disturbed in the process makes it easier or less traumatic for them.

I believe that the process takes several days - I know that it may not take place overnight - while the body shuts down. In my experience, it appears that the dog goes into almost a trancelike state. In being "rescued", the dog seems almost reproachful.

I'm not sure what relevance this has when it comes to human beings- we tend to be a lot less fatalistic when faced with the inevitable -but our 'primitive' brain may have quite a lot in common with other mammals.

On the other hand, when the question is 'How Terri Schiavo will die,' it appears the likely answer is: 'From old age.'

I don't understand why that is, but humans are full of contradiction. Remember a few years back when three whales in Alaska became trapped in a small body of water by a wall of ice? Even the Inuit who routinely hunt whales for sustenance helped the white culture free the whales and herd them back to the open ocean. It took days and lots of money. The logical thing would have been to consider them a windfall and harvest them.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:54 PM

Ebbie makes a very valid point.   Having had animals of my own---dogs and cats that lived to ripe old ages---exactly right.

As to humn conradictions---so true. Think of (if yu have read the articles) about the hawks of 5th Ave. More attention paid to their eviction from a perch on a luxury 5th Ave. bldg. than to a poor person in any other neighborhood. And the press and the public made sure the hawks were returned to their abode. Why even the laying of their new eggs was covered in the press---hand out the cigars for the new birth.    They only missed the copulation---or maybe not. Human contradiction---I do like the hawks---and look at all the personalities that got mileage out of this---Mary Tyler Moore for one.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:20 PM

Sad enough, the whole thing, esp. that it has gone on so long. BUT the worst of it is the gd government sticking its nose in. What's it going to take for the citizens of our country to finally rise up and say "get out of our lives?!"

I weary of the daily barrage of more and more intrusion by the shrub and his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

I don't think Terri Schiavo will die of old age. Even if today's Senate resolution becomes law, it will be immediately challenged in court on constitutional grounds that Schiavo's husband's and all spouses' constitutional rights are being violated by the law under the bill of attainder clause in the US Constitution. I believe she will die before this is finally resolved. At least, I sure hope she will, so her suffering will end. This way, she can die peacefully. If that tube gets put back in, I can't even imagine. It's already been removed and reinserted twice--once after 6 days when she MUST have been on death's doorstep. How long can her poor body last under such conditions? No one knows.

I really don't have any compassion left for her parents either. I've always felt it was about vengeance with them--towards the husband, and fueled by their intimate involvement with the Right to Life movement. If they are so gung ho to keep her alive, why the hell aren't they paying for her medical care--to the tune $80,000 per year, which we taxpayers are paying for, I might add.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

Easy to pick sides and say whatever you want. Suppose it was your kids NAMELESS? GUEST CAN ARGUE anything with no responsibility for consistency or accuracy. Hence whichever side you take your contribution is worthless.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM

Bill H, I have often wondered about that myself. Remember when Oral Roberts or Jerry Falwell or somebody- one of those televangelists- wept on TV when he was fund-raising, saying that God had told him that if he didn't raise X amount by a certain date that he was going to take him 'home'? It's gotta make you wonder. You'd think that 'home' is his goal.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:56 PM

I have to say I don't know what's right and what's wrong in this situation. It's a moral dilemma, not something that is clear-cut at all. It's a terrible shame that decisions like these end up in the hands of demagogues - and even worse when such a sad situation becomes a political squabble between two heartless ideologies.

It's not right to force her to live, and it's not right to force her to die. There is no "right" choice in this matter - but I wish the choice could be made by somebody who has a heart, somebody who will see grief instead of triumph in whatever decision is made.

In December, my dad made the decision to take my mom off life support and a feeding tube, and she died peacefully. My former-Catholic brother has some serious misconceptions about Catholics, and he thought my Catholic religion would compel me to object. Rapaire's quotes give a good summary of the official position of the Catholic Church on the matter. I think it's a very good point of view, and it's too bad that Catholic extremists and anti-Catholic extremists don't understand it. They only see black and white, and don't understand compassion.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:10 PM

It is heartbreaking to think of what Terri's husband and family are going through with all of this. They're trying to do what is right for a loved one, and in this case, it is to fight for something that will hurt them all. (I mention his family because he has a significant other and children with her, but has stayed married to Terri to fight this battle for her.)

The state isn't paying for her care, Schiavo is, with settlement money from a lawsuit to do with Terri's being mistreated at one point. I think I read that he has had pro bono help with the legal end of things.

This is the latest from the AP:

Congress Announces a Deal in the Schiavo Case
By MITCH STACY
The Associated Press

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. Mar 19, 2005 — As a deal in Congress was worked out to have federal courts decide Terri Schiavo's fate, emotions swelled outside the brain-damaged woman's hospice room Saturday, with protesters arrested after they symbolically tried to smuggle in bread and water on her second day without a feeding tube.

President Bush changed his schedule to return to Washington from his Texas ranch on Sunday to be on hand to sign the legislation.

As supporters maintained a vigil outside the hospice, Schiavo's mother pleaded for the 41-year-old woman's life.

"We laugh together, we cry together, we smile together, we talk together," Mary Schindler told reporters. "Please, please, please save my little girl."

Congressional leaders announced a compromise between Senate and House Republicans that would allow the brain-damaged woman's case to be reviewed by federal courts that could restore her feeding tube.

The Senate convened briefly Saturday evening to give formal permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be adjourned for the Easter recess.

The plan is for the House to act on the two-page bill Sunday or just after midnight Monday morning. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said the Senate then would act on the House legislation, assuming it passes the House as envisioned, and rush the bill to the president for signature into law.

"We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being," said House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas. "That's the very least we can do for her."

Schiavo's husband, Michael, who has fought her parents in court for years to have the feeding tube removed, urged Congress to stay out of the matter, saying he is just trying to carry out his wife's wishes.

"I feel like the government has just trampled all over my personal life," he said on CNN's "Larry King Live" Friday. "It is uncomprehensible that a government can walk all over somebody's private judicial matter, because of their own personal feelings."

There's more to the story here.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:21 PM

I agree this is an excruciating case, and presumably an excruciating decision for the husband to make. But in our society, it is his decision, and it is he and no one else, who has to live with it.

The decision never should have been taken out of the husband's hands. Under US and Florida law, he is the only person with the legal standing to act on behalf of Terri Schiavo. There has never been any evidence of him abusing or neglecting her. She received physical therapy for quite some time after being diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state. He sued for malpractice on her behalf, won a settlement that has been used to pay for her medical care, and didn't try to have the feeding tube disconnected for 8 years.

He has come to terms with his wife's permanent state with no hope of recovery, and has done as well by her as I think is humanly possible.

Like I said, this is a decision that should have been between Michael Schiavo and his wife's doctors. Not the parents, and certainly not the state--and ESPECIALLY not the feds.

These decisions belong with the families, even when we don't feel comfortable with the family member who has the legal right to make the decision. Life is full of these sorts of excruciating life and death decisions. This case is no different.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:49 PM

As I understand it, the husband had been paying for her care with funds from the malpractice settlement, but as of two years ago, Medicare took over paying for her care.

And is anyone else put off by the mother standing in front of cameras, pleading for the life of her "little girl"? Good grief. The woman was 26 when she had the heart attack that resulted in her being in permanent vegetative state for the last 15 years, putting her in her 40s. "My little girl"? "Starving to death"?

Puhleez.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 11:03 PM

Well, maybe having been thru this when my late wife, Judy, dies of cancer rightn here in the room that I now have my computer, I understand the act of dieing...

Sniff...

But it okay, folks... We are all going to do it and I would hope and pray that we all do it with the same dignity that Judy died. We own it to our loved ones and we own it to ourselves...

The circus that some folks have created here to further their political agendas cheapens this womans life...

Been there...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 04:59 AM

Yes. Bobert. Hee, here. In the other thread about what songs we wanted at our funeral, I mentioned ' For A Dancer' by jackson browne who refuses to Death as ..

'in the end there is one dance you'll do alone'

In the other Schiavo thread, I menioned my grandmother is getting ready for that dance. she's a DNR and is refusing food and most medical interventions right now. She's at peace, surrounded by family and in a small facility in her home town where her own husband died. I am so sad every time I hear about this case in Florida. Only useful thing to do seems to be to pray for her.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM

The other ridiculous thing about all this is, it won't be lack of nutrition that causes death, but dehydration. So the use of the term "starving to death" by the parents, siblings, their attorneys, and the Right to Life movement, is manipulative and cynical as hell.

But then, these people also claim to have the medical expertise to declare the court appointed neurology experts who have examined Terri Schiavo, know nothings.

But the media reports on the cable news & talk radio programs never explain any of that. They just keep saying "Terri's mother is begging for her daughter's life, says she is being starved to death..."

This grandstanding by the parents is so rehearsed, so calculated, I'm beginning to think these people may possibly be evil--and I choose that word and use it with extreme caution.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:25 PM

I think, and am not positive, that part of the tragedy is that the Catholic Church has not/will not allow the husband to divorce or get an annullment and remarry in the church..but again, I am not sure. If they will not, in these circumstances, it is cruel and leads to situations like these. If they have said, in cases like this, where someone obviously cannot function as a husband or wife, of course you can get an annullment as long as he/she isi provided for..then, I am wrong. He needs to get an annulment, marry the other woman, and leave the decisions to others who stand by to take over. mg

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:39 PM

(tune: Molly Malone)

In a Florida city,
It sure is a pity,
How they tried to politicize
Terri Schiavo
Her face in the headlines
Haunts all the deadlines while
They try to keep her
Alive alive-O

Alive alive O
Alive alive O
And they try to
Keep her
Alive alive O

She was a just a person,
And it couldn't be worse than
The way that they use her
For their special gain.
For Frist and Delay
Make political hay just to
Keep Terri Schiavo
Alive, alive O.

Alive, alive O
Alive, alive O
And that's the sad story
Of Terri Schiavo

The won't let her die
They're telling the lie
That she's able to function by the
Look in her eye, so
She still remains
For political gains
They ig--nore all the rights
Of Terri Schiavo

Alive, alive O
Alive, alive O
And that's the sad story
Of Terri Schiavo

Frank

Subject: Add: Turn Me Gentle When I'm Dying
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM

Turn Me Gentle When I'm Dying

Cat. #0851 (MFH #656) - As sung by Ollie Gilbert, Mountain View, Arkansas on August 27, 1969.


VERSE 1
Turn me gentle when I'm dying
Turn me gentle to the sun
Let me see my last refading
That will mark my journey's run
When my pulse is thru beating
An' my limbs grow'in cold
Dress me in some spotless wardrobe
An' my arms across me fold

VERSE 2
Bur' me in some quiet graveyard
Where my rest'in place shall be
If it please thee brother stranger
O'er my body plant a tree
Plant it with the greenest branches
Pointing upward to the sky
It will tell to all that passes
That the soul will never die

VERSE 3
In it stood a weep'in willow
With its twig bent to the ground
It will hear the body slumbering
In the dust beneath the ground
Plant it with the greenest branches
Pointing upward to the sky
It will tell to all that passes
That the soul will never die

SH
[Typo's fixed]

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:51 PM

Amazing how the liberals who want her to have a peaceful execution are the same ones who protest when a convicted criminal gets one.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:18 PM

I read a press story about this poor unfortunate wraith today which reported that the cognitive area of her brain essentially liquified some time ago. Read another interview by her gaurdian ad litem. That was the most sentient and human report I have yet seen. The bottom line is that she has been gone for a long, long time. Which brings me to wonder just who is it that has/is profited/ing by all this. Certainly not the patient.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

I read an article at, I think, St. Petersburg Times or the Tampa Trib, that discussed how the guardian ad litem has made a 180 on the case, and now backs the removal of the tube.

What no one is talking about is that the cases where two people regained some limited cognitive function after being in car accidents that resulted in brain injury (which in rare circumstances, over a long enough period of time, grow new brain cells and synapses). In the case of Terri Schiavo, her brain was deprived of oxygen, and so there is no hope of new brain cells growing, hence the "hopeless" prognosis for people in persistent vegetative states as a result of oxygen deprivation.

Odd isn't it, that none of these really important details and contexts get discussed in the mainstream media storm? There was also another article at one of the two papers I mentioned above, that discussed how biased the edited snippet of videotape that keeps being shown over and over ad nauseum by every tv news outlet, against the husband's case. The article says that the couple seconds you see makes it appear as though there is some responsiveness and consciousness, but that just isn't the reality. The rest of the video it was taken from is actually four hours of Terri Schiavo sitting perfectly still, staring blankly into space, NOT responding to anyone, etc.

Politicians and the Right to Lifers are scum.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:05 PM

Oh wait, I forgot to add the bottom feeding media suckers to the list...

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:23 PM

Thanks Dave's Wife for yet post... Yeah, music can be very much a prt of living as well as dieing...

When my late wife Judy was dieing, she asked me to write a song for her that I would play at her funeral. I composed probably the best song I have ever written which I entitled "Dancing With the Angels' and playing it was incorporated in her funeral... It was very hard but since she asked mne to do it, I did it...

She also gave me a list of songs from various artists to make a tape of and it was played at the viewing the night before her funeral...

And there was the funeral itself. Judy had her twin daughters, Heather anf Jenny, make up all the printed material along with a copy to the words "I'll Fly Away" which was sung by all those in attendence at the close of the funeral and as the coffin was taken from the church to the hurst...

Sniff...

Now, for a lot of folks dieing has become a political thing. It's not. My Judy died right here in the room where this computer now sits. Might of fact, my keyboard sits within a foot of where Judy took her last breath...

Now some folks may never understand what is like to be a caregiver/spouse to a dieing person but my prayers go out to this woman's husband. I have seen and read of just how much he gavce of himself early on in trying to bring his wife back and, as someone who has been there, man, geeze oh man.... Much of this man has allready died in what he has allready done... I know... Folks who have lost loved ones with hospice care know...

Those who haven't been thru it can't possibly know but I can assure them that if they are given the chance to go thru it themselves they won't come back with the same old ideas about death and dieing...

Guarenteed...

Sniff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Boab
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:51 AM

Bobert---like you, I lost the Dearest Lady I have ever known, fourteen years back. She was still semi conscious when she was taken from me by the medics, and the final words I spoke to Her were "Ilove You-I love You--I love You" And she heard the words, I knew by Her reaction. my next sight of My Lady she was in deep coma. The following day, I faced a neuro-surgeon in Glasgow, who asked my sanction to take my Wife off life support, if, after a further check for brain activity, he found none. I asked if he expected to find any. He grasped my arm, shook his head. I said that if there was no hope of my Lass ever feeling or seeing anything of Her loved-ones again, he should do what he knew to be best. The following morning I sat and held her hand as she breathed for the last time. And if any "pro-life"[quotes intended, emphatically] nutter had stepped forward in these desperately sad moments and tried to condemn, I think I'd probably have taken his stupid head off.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:53 AM

Actually, new brain cells are not known to grow. The best that can happen is that existing cells form new interconnections to revive some functions.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:54 AM

Actually, that should be that new brain cells are not known to grow after the brain has matured.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:06 AM

The circus that some folks have created here to further their political agendas cheapens this womans life (Bobert)

I agree completely. This should be a very private decision and time. It's hard enough for everyone close to Terri without all those who do not care about her pretending they do.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 AM

To me, it just shows how contemptuous of the law the Republican right truly is on these matters. This intervention has nothing to do with the woman's life. This is about the Christian fundamentalist driven Republican right slapping down the judiciary, and trampling the rule of law and the US constitution in the process, because it doesn't put their religious views above the law.

Tom DeLay said it all when asked at the press conference on Saturday, how the Republican leadership could lead such an intervention which violated their long standing support of states' rights and hysteria mongering over the sanctity of marriage (you know, that gay thing...).

His response was "the sanctity of life trumps the sanctity of marriage and states' rights".

Many mainstream newspapers are now talking about how this latest grandstanding by the Republican political leaders is being used to set the stage for the 2006 election. The depths of depravity these scum stoop to simply boggles the mind.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM

Geez, the fiction that the right-to-life folks comes up with is so insultingly transparent. Google has a page that pops to the top now in the news, with this story (just a bit) from LifeNews.com. They're acting like she's a normal functioning kid whose somehow turned up on death row.

Terri Schiavo Still Responsive Despite Three Days of Starvation
March 21, 2005

Pinellas Park, FL (LifeNews.com) -- Terri Schiavo is still responsive and in good spirits despite being deprived of food and water for three days, her parents said on Monday. She is also looking forward to receiving nutrition and seemed pleased to hear President Bush signed a bill helping her do that.

Terri's father joked around with Terri in an early Monday morning visit and told her to get ready for him to take her to breakfast, he told news outlets in an interview.

"I told her if she was ready, to take a ride to get some breakfast, and she gave a great smile," Bob Schindler said outside Woodside Hospice where Terri lives. . .

Poor woman is such a pawn for these groups whose only interest is to further their own inflexible agendas. Can you imagine the "commercials" on tv that may come next? Couple at breakfast table:

"Gee, hon, it looks like Terry doesn't want to be starved to death. She told her father so this morning. And she's glad to see that the President of the United States is trying to save her life."

"Why does she have to die, if she doesn't want to?"

"It's those incompetent neurosurgeons and that nasty ol' husband of hers . . . "

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:14 PM

The parents are in serious need of a mental health intervention.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

I asked this in another thread, and I'll ask it here too:

Who is having to pay for the hospitalization and care of the body involved until it finally shuts down?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:32 PM

The husband is paying for her care, out of a malpractice settlement from a number of years back.

Here's a piece with new information to this thread:

Vegetative state can give kin false hope

MALCOLM RITTER
Associated Press

NEW YORK - In the family video played over and over on TV, Terri Schiavo seems to gaze fondly at her mother, with the hint of a smile. On Sunday night, as Congress took up debate on her case, her father told reporters that she responded to his teasing by making a face at him. "It tells us she's still with us," he said.

But in Schiavo's condition, described as a persistent vegetative state, family members can be deceived by things like eye movements and reflexes, experts say.

"It creates this ironic combination of wakefulness without awareness," said Dr. James Bernat, a neurology professor at Dartmouth Medical School.

That's because in a persistent vegetative state, the brain centers that control wakefulness are functioning, but those that permit conscious awareness of oneself or the environment are damaged or destroyed.

As a result, patients close their eyes to sleep and open them when they wake up. If a doctor brushes the eyeball with a wisp of cotton, they may blink. If something gets caught in the throat, they will cough. There may be limited eye movements, though patients can't follow a person walking from one side of the room to another, for example.

That's in contrast to a coma, in which the eyes remain closed and a person is neither aware nor awake, or brain death, in which there is no sign at all that the brain is functioning.

Bernat, past chairman of the American Academy of Neurology's Ethics, Law and Humanities Committee, declined to comment specifically on the Schiavo case. He said outward signs of persistent vegetative state can give family members false hope.

"There's a normal tendency of family members to interpret (random) movements as evidence of awareness," said Bernat, who recalled seeing that happen with his own patients.

He said that when family members claim that a loved one in a persistent vegetative state is purposefully looking at them, he asks to accompany them to the bedside and see for himself. Sometimes, in fact, family members really have noticed genuine signs of consciousness and investigation shows the diagnosis was incorrect, he said. But in his experience, Bernat said, most of the time the family has been wrong.

Nobody can enter a patient's mind and discover what that person is experiencing, he noted. Doctors can only say that despite what family members might believe, "to the best of our ability we cannot convince ourselves there is any evidence of awareness," Bernat said. Doctors try to help the family understand how it's possible to be awake but not aware, he said.

Patients can recover after even a year or two in a persistent vegetative state caused by head trauma, Bernat said, although they generally continue to be disabled. However, he said a vegetative state that was caused by lack of blood or oxygen delivery to the brain and has gone on more than five years is considered permanent.

Schiavo, 41, has been at the center of a long and bitter court battle between her parents and her husband, who wants to remove her feeding tube so she can die.

Court-appointed doctors say Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, after her heart stopped beating temporarily 15 years ago, cutting off oxygen to her brain. She did not leave any written instructions about care, but her husband, Michael Schiavo, contends she told him that she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, and deny their daughter is in a vegetative state.

Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her family has been televised nationally. But a court-appointed doctor has said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

In caring for a person in a this condition, doctors are guided by what the patient would have wanted, Bernat said. Some have indicated they want to be treated while others have said they want to be left to die, he said.

Usually patients can breathe without a ventilator. As in the Schiavo case, long-term care involves a feeding tube to deliver fluids and food to the stomach. If family members ask to stop treatment, the tube is removed or medical teams are instructed not to treat infections, Bernat said.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:42 PM

I guess I'm curious as to how they've been able to fend off bedsores for all this time. It's a major concern for anyone bedridden for more than a few weeks.

There is ignorance and cruelty here. Ignorance on the part of a lot of commentators who are parroting positions rather than truly informing themselves as to Ms. Schiavo's true condition. Cruelty both to her parents in harboring their wishes and giving them false promise, and cruelty especially to the impugning of the husband.

I suspect that Ms. Schiavo herself has long been 'out of it' and has no conscious awareness whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM

Actually, according to the Miami Herald, Medicare has been footing the bill since 2002 (?). Last couple of years, anyway. The malpractice money is gone.

And who paid to fly the 200+ members of the US House back to DC so they could vote on this?

Also, as to the videotape. Those are a few seconds of edited tape. Greer, the judge in the case, has 4+ hours of videotape showing her staring blankly, and not responding to any stimulus, to any person, etc.

In other words, the videotape that the parents/Right To Lifers have provided all the media outlets, is, shall we say, a tad misleading?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:06 PM

robomatic there are beds designed that stop bedsores. They have every control you could imagine, to control temperature and constant airflow etc.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:31 PM

Unnamed Guest:

Back to front. A bed of itself cannot prevent bedsores. They arise from the skin degrading between the weight of the patient and the supporting surface. The patient MUST move or be moved. Until you see one, you will not believe how bad they can be. I believe it was what killed actor Chris Reeves who had apparently a lot more mobility than Ms. Schiavo (and was bedridden for much less time). So I'm still curious.

I just heard an interesting point being made regarding the irony of a big court settlement of the the kind that the administration is trying to limit actually being spent to keep Ms. Schiavo 'alive'. Also, Republicans are trying to get Medicare expenses limited but apparently there is Medicare money going to Ms. Schiavo's case after all this time, as well.

"We aren't doctors. We just play them on CSPAN."
- attributed to Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:31 PM

I read in another thread that GW Bush (while governor, I guess) signed a bill into law that authorizes hospitals in Texas to remove life support against the wishes of the family, when the family can no longer afford to pay the expenses of keeping the patient alive. If that's true, and if it's true that Medicaid (I don't think she's old enough for Medicare) is paying for her care, I guess we can assume that Terry Schiavo would have died a long time ago had she been living in Texas.

I wonder how many people have died because of that Texas law (if, indeed, it exists)...

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: s&r
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:43 PM

Thanks Joe Offer for the least political and most compassionate post here

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

posted my opinion on other thread

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

For a person on prolonged bed rest, consider renting a special rotation-type bed, such as the Roto Rest bed. This bed automatically turns and repositions the occupant, and it is loaded with pressure-reducing devices.

robomatic I have seen more bed sores than I care to remember.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:24 PM

Growing weary with the degree of heat and the lack of light in this and the other thread on this subject, I tend to scan rather than read most of the posts. But on the subject of bed sores and beds that supposedly prevent them:   

Some five years ago, I fell and broke a leg—badly. Required surgery and close to four weeks in the hospital, part of that time undergoing physical therapy. After about a week, I complained of a sore behind, and after being ignored by several nurses, one nurse in particular took a look, hit the ceiling, and on her own hook, called in a dermatologist. She got into hot water with the rehabilitation physician who was in charge of my case for going over her (the rehabilitation physician's) head, but I had already complained to her and got thoroughly ignored. I made a little threat (legal type) in the physician's direction, and she decided to leave the nurse alone.

Anyway, the dermatologist said that I was well on my way to a pressure-sore (stage one—redness, some abrasion, on it's way to stage two—broken skin, beginning of an ulcer). I was moved to a bed that supposedly aided in forestalling bed-sores; it hummed and changed air pressure whenever I moved. Nevertheless, at night, a nurse and an attended came into my room and rolled me over every two hours. The bed, I was told, would help, but pressure is pressure, and it must be alleviated or the sore will continue to develop. Fortunately, they caught it before it got very far, and it went away.

I use a wheelchair (had to even before I broke the leg), and to prevent any future pressure sores from sitting, the dermatologist prescribed a ROHO Quadtro air-floatation cushion. As I sit here, my behind floats comfortably on a cushion of air. But I still have to watch it carefully. Shift position frequently and change the pressure points. .

If a pressure-sore ever takes hold, you have Big Trouble!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: jaze
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:09 PM

Interesting that W felt compelled to fly back to Washington to intervene in this, when a number lost their lives under his reign in Texas. Right To Life? I guess it's for him to decide which life, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM

So that was no rumor about the Texas law, according to this article...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support

By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

"The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother.

Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

'I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months .... They made a terrible mistake.'

Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

'This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long. It's always sad when an infant dies. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive.'

The hospital's description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother's. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from accepting Hudson's invitation to see the baby in the neonatal intensive care unit, citing patient privacy concerns.

'I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself,' Hudson told reporters. 'So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious.'

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient."


So it really does boil down to the government deciding who is allowed to live and who is allowed to die. I must say, I am very strongly against this trend.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM

A GUEST said, in part:

And who paid to fly the 200+ members of the US House back to DC so they could vote on this?

This afternoon, on NPR, I heard just a scrap of a feature about this case. I have to admit that I didn't catch all of it.

But as I understood it, in the Senate session there were only three (that's right, 3!) Senators present for the vote, MUCH less than a quorum, so they went on what's called a "unanimous consent rule". So if three Senators all agreed and no-one suggested the absence of a quorum, they exercised the function of the full Senate.

If that is correct, it's not just wrong, it's not just shameful-- It's shocking, criminal in my view. It shows the extent to which the politicoes are willing to go to subvert not only the law but the Constitution for their political ends.

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm afraid what I understood was what was intended by the NPR feature.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, CarolC, fir doing the blue clicky/research on Sun Hudson's premature death because his parent's were poor...

Same stuff that is keeping Terry Schiavo alive tonight, byy an act of Congress, was what was taken from this poor black kid before he died...

Hey, I know there are a couple of folks here who think I just make up stuff. Might of fact, I got a nasty PM from one of them today but, hey, I don't. No, I might be a little too buzy working my barins out trying to make a living in Boss Hog's Amerika but I ain't friggin' stupid. I read lots of stuff, stick it in my thinerator, and go on... So what if I can't remember exactly where I l;earned somethin'???

Yeah, I heard or read about this Texas/Bush pull-the-plug-on-poor-folks a while back... Thanks agin for the assist, CarolC, fir the link...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:51 PM

No problemo, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:48 PM

Don Firth, who gives a damn about your behind? Worry about the odor.

What's the opposite of a "right to lifer?" A "right to deather?"

As if this country was founded on the pursuit of death, liberty, and justice?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

How little grasp the media have and the silliness they are willing to impart on this tragic tale was in evidence on our local news this morning. They had a couple with a child with CP who has a feeding tube. The girl IS responsive and typical of those on the lower scale of CP function. Not a lot there but certainly functional on many levels. The parents and the news folk showed the tube and then said how they could never make such a decision blah, blah, blah.

I can't believe the parents would even consider comparing the situations, but indeed they did and the news folks ate it up!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM

Yeah, Spaw, it's a no brainer to yank that tube out of Terry, isn't it?

Because you are one of her attending physicians, right?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:31 PM

Martin Gibson, if YOU were one of her attending physicians, Terry would surely yank the tube out by herself just to escape your vitreol.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:35 PM

Okay Martin, I'll happily defer to your opinion as I have suspected from your posts that you are in a vegetative state yourself......How can I argue with that kind of first hand knowledge?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:36 PM

OH---that is a great comment SRS

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:00 PM

So I'm assuming that all of the people who are so outraged at the idea of removing the feeding tube from Terri Schiavo are equally outraged about the law in Texas that allows hospitals to make the decision to remove life support against the wishes of the families, on the basis of the families' inability to pay.

And I also assume that they support allowing large malpractic settlements against doctors, like the one Terri Schiavo received, that has helped to pay for her care for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:22 PM

Having spent time in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, I can say from experience that I can't imagine healthcare people willingly pulling the plug on a baby because of ability to pay. They don't take the death of a child lightly or expediently--not at all. This said, there is limited space in these facilities, and it must seem like a profligate waste of resources to have the parent of a brain-dead baby sucking up the time and money and space resources that could be used to save another baby.

We have made a point over the years to attend the annual NICU reunion at the children's hospital here in town, because as I remind my son who spent two weeks there, it isn't really for him as much as it is to reinforce a feeling of success for those doctors and nurses. They need to see their former patients grow and thrive, because a lot of those little ones don't make it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM

How do you feel about that law, SRS?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:43 PM

Which law? I don't know the Texas case, just what I read and evaluated according to what I've seen in such places. My thoughts on that law should be clear--it sounds like it was put into place to prevent people who don't have sound judgement from abusing the healthcare system, not put there to boot out poor or minority babies. In the Schiavo instance over the weekend, I think it's an abomination, an abuse of the Congress by members of Congress as they butt into matters that are strictly none of their concern.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:39 AM

The law you just described is the one I was asking about, SRS. It was also discussed in the link I put in my 21 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM post to this thread.

Apparently, according to Texas law, a hospital can make decisions about life support independent of the wishes of the families of the patients in question, based on the family's ability to pay. I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea that lack of financial means can be used as the deciding factor for hospitals to determine which people will be allowed to remain on life support, and which ones won't. Especially if the the wish of the person responsible for the patient is for the patient to remain on life support. It's a very tricky question, though, and I don't think there are any easy answers.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM

Don Firth:

Thank you for taking the time to tell of your experience and knowledge of bed sores. I had to care for one that went 'bad' under supposedly good care conditions.

Carol thanks for the info on the Texas laws and our Commander In Chief's experience on 'both sides' of the issue.

There is a growing issue, addressed differently in different states and different countries, of allocating services to those who can use them. We are idealizing the case of Ms. Schiavo to an extent, that her bed, her medications, and the manhours devoted to maintaining a body with to all intents and purposes, no brain, are being ignored. Over the number of years that this significant amount of time materials, and money has gone to Ms. Schiavo it could have been put to other uses, to serve people with real problems who had a chance of getting better. For some time now it has been obvious to experts that Ms. Schiavo is not going to get any better. She's been gone for some time.

I know this is a loaded subject, but I don't think Ms. Schiavo minds.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM

Health care rationing is nothing new under the sun. Decisions not to treat based upon inability to pay decisions are made hundreds, if not thousands of times a day across the US in hospitals, clinics, and doctors offices.

I am greatly relieved at the judge's ruling not to reopen this can of worms. Let's hope the appeals are turned down as quickly in Atlanta and Washington.

There is one question the Right to Lifers never want to answer about this case: what about the thousands of other patients who will have their feeding tubes removed by their legal guardians this year?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

Martin, Don Firth was calling on his own knowledge and experience to address a matter relevant to the subject of this thread. Addressing matters relevant to anything other than your desire to be a smart-ass is not really your long suit. Mr. Firth's personal hygiene is not really in question. Your mental hygiene, however, is.

Go ahead. Attack my genetic material.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:53 PM

To go back to the title of the thread:

...unloved and lonely, probably after her parents have left this earth.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Dong-Genes, I would rather be a smart-ass than a dumb ass which you are excellent at.

what else do you want to talk about?

SRS, I am not one of her attending physicians nor do i pretend to be. would you let one of your children die? probably. You have about as much soul and common sense as an extra-wide Kotex.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,the shrink
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:07 PM

As a yong boy Martin's mother made him eat sanitary products. Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

Developed quite a taste for them,apparently. All he seems to be able to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

Coprophilia is a recognised condition; well, perversion really.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:07 PM

What a riot!

what else do you want to talk about?

Dog-Genes want to talk about your mother? I'm sure she was quite a bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:26 PM

Which family would that be. I understand that he is living with another woman with whom he has had 2 children.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:32 PM

I see; coprophilia does not exhaust Mr Gibson's talents, which extend to cross-species interests. What next?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

Seems to me, Jimm, that since his legal wife, Terri, communicated her wish to not be kept alive in the condition in which she exists right now (and this fact has been accepted by the courts) should the unthinkable ever happen, her wishes in this regard ought to be respected.

If I ever happened to be in her situation, I would not want my wishes to be circumvented by a bunch of opportunistic politicians who couldn't give a shit about me, personally, but were using me as a political tool just to help them get elected/re-elected, and be forced to remain in a persistant vegetative state indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM

Xander

Did you ever get X'd out?

I hear you have a whole chapter of your autobiography on coprophilia and how you have sworn to abide by it's teachings this Easter.

It comes right after your entertaining chapter, "my life as a pus pimple and other tricks with mirrors."

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:41 PM

Whatever, Martin Gibson...whatever...

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:55 PM

Thanks, Xander or Zander, if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM

Terri died 15 years ago. How her body will cease functioning doesn't matter to her, and she's the only one to whom it's relevant. Sad for her parents and her husband, though.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:36 PM

A beating heart and breathing lungs is not death.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

Well, Martin's got us there! He himself is a living, breathing example of someone able to live with a non-functioning brain.

I'm not real sure about his heart, though. About the size of a raisin, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM

Perfect 10 on that one, Diogenes!

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:04 PM

Seems to me CarolC that you are taking the word of a man who really didn't remember that his wife didn't want to live that way until after he had a new paramour. Given the circumstances, I don't think we should starve her on the basis of hearsay!

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:10 PM

I don't think you have a very good definition of life. If she is able to express love and feel pain she should be given the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It seems the people who have been taking care of her have a different opinion of a persistent vegetative state. They think when you are able to greet someone, enjoy jello and a laugh that you are not a vegetable. Of course you wouldn't want to live that way. That is what Tom McCall (former governor of Oregon) said when he was healthy. When he got cancer however, he used every 'extraordinary' means to stick around as long as he could.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

They think when you are able to greet someone, enjoy jello and a laugh that you are not a vegetable.

Jimm, you've been reading the propaganda put out by the right-to-lifers, who don't begin to have a rational grasp on this issue. All Terry Schiavo does is lie there. She doesn't do anything else except lower brainstem functions. Her heart beats, she breaths. She has reflex actions of coughing, sneezing, and blinking. That's it. Her husband waited 8 years before making the decision to pull the plug, concluding that she wasn't going to improve. He moved on with his personal life but has compromised the richness of that relationship to stick it out to see to his wife's wish to not be kept alive this way. You don't even do him the common courtesy of reading his side of this case before pronouncing him unfit? And what in hell does the governor of Oregon have to do with Terry Schaivo? You're throwing in a red herring because there is no way to rationally make your case. Not at all.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM

Terri's husband isn't the only one to testify under oath that she'd expressed a wish not to be kept alive in this kind if state. Her friends testified to this as well, and the courts remain persuaded.

There's also a rumor going around that as soon as Terri dies, Michael will inherit a million dollars from her "estate." CNN has shown this to be untrue.

Terry's brother has claimed that Michael wants her to die because "maybe" he beat her up and is afraid that she'll wake up one day to accuse him in court. Since there's no evidence of this, the statement comes very close to slander.

There has also been plenty of talk that Terri is being denied the right to a federal appeal "that even John Couey and Scott Peterson have."

What rubbish! Terri's case has been adjudicated again and again for eight years or more. The courts are following her wishes to the extent that they can be known and on the basis of expert and independent medical testimony.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:25 PM

SRS, you are obviously a "right to deather" It's a good thing you can't have kids because they would be big losers.

You've got about as much heart as a frigid bitch.

You support murder.

Dog-genes and you support death instead of life. Your brain is obviously the size of your very non-functional clitoris.

dog-Genes cuts off the air to his brain everytime he takes a piss.

You both support murder. Who else do you want to see die that lives and breathes? How about someone with cerebral palsy? Or a stroke victim?

That's where Hitler started. You both go through life, morally bankrupt and I love telling you so.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:37 PM

Marvin's wife is no better than he. Where do you think he gets his ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:00 PM

Ebbie

You are a cunt. Yep, a cunt.

You don't know my wife.

You are a cunt, I repeat, for bringing her into this discusion.

Again, you are a cunt. You will remain a cunt of the smelliest degree for bringing my wife, who you do not know, and does not post here, into this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM

Isn't he just the sweetest thing though?

Has anyone ever run into anyone as angry, dull-witted, and hate-filled as Martin Gibson?

Sociopath. Glad I don't live in Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

Oh, Marvin, I'm just having fun! I just figured as long as you brought up someone's mother you wouldn't mind having your wife brought into the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM

Have you ever noticed that it's the most offensive people who are the quickest to take offense when they get a dose of their own medicine?

Martin had better watch his blood pressure. Sounds like his arteries are getting ready to pop like a cluster of water balloons.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM

Why the fu$k do people persist in RESPONDING to this Martin turd?

The Marty the Mensch doll is not amusing, not entertaining, he's not enlightening. He's not even a whooopee cushion, Bobert - more like a guy exposing himself to school girls to get a reaction. Pathetic.

Way past time to issue a DNR order on him- Do Not Respond.

I realize he spends most of his time playing with himself, but perhaps he'll play with himself less HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

Greg F, I do know what you mean but after Marvin goes off and has a good cry, he'll come back his usual smiling self. (I have tried honey)

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:02 PM

Martin...I have met Ebbie...you are outclassed.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

Martin Gibson, you leave MY children and YOUR children out of this. They aren't germane to the discussion going on in Florida between a woman who to all intents and purposes went quiet to that good night 15 years ago. It's between she and her maligned husband and their doctors, not between any of them and her insane parents. They'll probably have Terry stuffed and mounted after she dies, then they can go on talking to her and for her just like before.

'OUT, OUT--'
The buzz-saw snarled and rattled in the yard
And made dust and dropped stove-length sticks of wood,
Sweet-scented stuff when the breeze drew across it.
And from there those that lifted eyes could count
Five mountain ranges one behind the other
Under the sunset far into Vermont.
And the saw snarled and rattled, snarled and rattled,
As it ran light, or had to bear a load.
And nothing happened: day was all but done.
Call it a day, I wish they might have said
To please the boy by giving him the half hour
That a boy counts so much when saved from work.
His sister stood beside them in her apron
To tell them 'Supper'. At the word, the saw,
As if to prove saws knew what supper meant,
Leaped out at the boy's hand, or seemed to leap--
He must have given the hand. However it was,
Neither refused the meeting. But the hand!
The boy's first outcry was a rueful laugh.
As he swung toward them holding up the hand
Half in appeal, but half as if to keep
The life from spilling. Then the boy saw all--
Since he was old enough to know, big boy
Doing a man's work, though a child at heart--
He saw all spoiled. 'Don't let him cut my hand off
The doctor, when he comes. Don't let him, sister!'
So. But the hand was gone already.
The doctor put him in the dark of ether.
He lay and puffed his lips out with his breath.
And then -- the watcher at his pulse took fright.
No one believed. They listened at his heart.
Little -- less -- nothing! -- and that ended it.
No more to build on there. And they, since they
Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs.

---

OK, I think that's more than enough. I could delete Martin if it were just Martin, but it isn't. Feel free to to carry on the Sciavo discussion in another thread.
-Joe Offer-