BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

Martin Gibson, you leave MY children and YOUR children out of this. They aren't germane to the discussion going on in Florida between a woman who to all intents and purposes went quiet to that good night 15 years ago. It's between she and her maligned husband and their doctors, not between any of them and her insane parents. They'll probably have Terry stuffed and mounted after she dies, then they can go on talking to her and for her just like before.

'OUT, OUT--'
The buzz-saw snarled and rattled in the yard
And made dust and dropped stove-length sticks of wood,
Sweet-scented stuff when the breeze drew across it.
And from there those that lifted eyes could count
Five mountain ranges one behind the other
Under the sunset far into Vermont.
And the saw snarled and rattled, snarled and rattled,
As it ran light, or had to bear a load.
And nothing happened: day was all but done.
Call it a day, I wish they might have said
To please the boy by giving him the half hour
That a boy counts so much when saved from work.
His sister stood beside them in her apron
To tell them 'Supper'. At the word, the saw,
As if to prove saws knew what supper meant,
Leaped out at the boy's hand, or seemed to leap--
He must have given the hand. However it was,
Neither refused the meeting. But the hand!
The boy's first outcry was a rueful laugh.
As he swung toward them holding up the hand
Half in appeal, but half as if to keep
The life from spilling. Then the boy saw all--
Since he was old enough to know, big boy
Doing a man's work, though a child at heart--
He saw all spoiled. 'Don't let him cut my hand off
The doctor, when he comes. Don't let him, sister!'
So. But the hand was gone already.
The doctor put him in the dark of ether.
He lay and puffed his lips out with his breath.
And then -- the watcher at his pulse took fright.
No one believed. They listened at his heart.
Little -- less -- nothing! -- and that ended it.
No more to build on there. And they, since they
Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs.

---

OK, I think that's more than enough. I could delete Martin if it were just Martin, but it isn't. Feel free to to carry on the Sciavo discussion in another thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:02 PM

Martin...I have met Ebbie...you are outclassed.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

Greg F, I do know what you mean but after Marvin goes off and has a good cry, he'll come back his usual smiling self. (I have tried honey)

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM

Why the fu$k do people persist in RESPONDING to this Martin turd?

The Marty the Mensch doll is not amusing, not entertaining, he's not enlightening. He's not even a whooopee cushion, Bobert - more like a guy exposing himself to school girls to get a reaction. Pathetic.

Way past time to issue a DNR order on him- Do Not Respond.

I realize he spends most of his time playing with himself, but perhaps he'll play with himself less HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM

Have you ever noticed that it's the most offensive people who are the quickest to take offense when they get a dose of their own medicine?

Martin had better watch his blood pressure. Sounds like his arteries are getting ready to pop like a cluster of water balloons.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

Oh, Marvin, I'm just having fun! I just figured as long as you brought up someone's mother you wouldn't mind having your wife brought into the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM

Isn't he just the sweetest thing though?

Has anyone ever run into anyone as angry, dull-witted, and hate-filled as Martin Gibson?

Sociopath. Glad I don't live in Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:00 PM

Ebbie

You are a cunt. Yep, a cunt.

You don't know my wife.

You are a cunt, I repeat, for bringing her into this discusion.

Again, you are a cunt. You will remain a cunt of the smelliest degree for bringing my wife, who you do not know, and does not post here, into this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:37 PM

Marvin's wife is no better than he. Where do you think he gets his ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:25 PM

SRS, you are obviously a "right to deather" It's a good thing you can't have kids because they would be big losers.

You've got about as much heart as a frigid bitch.

You support murder.

Dog-genes and you support death instead of life. Your brain is obviously the size of your very non-functional clitoris.

dog-Genes cuts off the air to his brain everytime he takes a piss.

You both support murder. Who else do you want to see die that lives and breathes? How about someone with cerebral palsy? Or a stroke victim?

That's where Hitler started. You both go through life, morally bankrupt and I love telling you so.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM

Terri's husband isn't the only one to testify under oath that she'd expressed a wish not to be kept alive in this kind if state. Her friends testified to this as well, and the courts remain persuaded.

There's also a rumor going around that as soon as Terri dies, Michael will inherit a million dollars from her "estate." CNN has shown this to be untrue.

Terry's brother has claimed that Michael wants her to die because "maybe" he beat her up and is afraid that she'll wake up one day to accuse him in court. Since there's no evidence of this, the statement comes very close to slander.

There has also been plenty of talk that Terri is being denied the right to a federal appeal "that even John Couey and Scott Peterson have."

What rubbish! Terri's case has been adjudicated again and again for eight years or more. The courts are following her wishes to the extent that they can be known and on the basis of expert and independent medical testimony.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

They think when you are able to greet someone, enjoy jello and a laugh that you are not a vegetable.

Jimm, you've been reading the propaganda put out by the right-to-lifers, who don't begin to have a rational grasp on this issue. All Terry Schiavo does is lie there. She doesn't do anything else except lower brainstem functions. Her heart beats, she breaths. She has reflex actions of coughing, sneezing, and blinking. That's it. Her husband waited 8 years before making the decision to pull the plug, concluding that she wasn't going to improve. He moved on with his personal life but has compromised the richness of that relationship to stick it out to see to his wife's wish to not be kept alive this way. You don't even do him the common courtesy of reading his side of this case before pronouncing him unfit? And what in hell does the governor of Oregon have to do with Terry Schaivo? You're throwing in a red herring because there is no way to rationally make your case. Not at all.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:10 PM

I don't think you have a very good definition of life. If she is able to express love and feel pain she should be given the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It seems the people who have been taking care of her have a different opinion of a persistent vegetative state. They think when you are able to greet someone, enjoy jello and a laugh that you are not a vegetable. Of course you wouldn't want to live that way. That is what Tom McCall (former governor of Oregon) said when he was healthy. When he got cancer however, he used every 'extraordinary' means to stick around as long as he could.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:04 PM

Seems to me CarolC that you are taking the word of a man who really didn't remember that his wife didn't want to live that way until after he had a new paramour. Given the circumstances, I don't think we should starve her on the basis of hearsay!

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM

Perfect 10 on that one, Diogenes!

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

Well, Martin's got us there! He himself is a living, breathing example of someone able to live with a non-functioning brain.

I'm not real sure about his heart, though. About the size of a raisin, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:36 PM

A beating heart and breathing lungs is not death.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM

Terri died 15 years ago. How her body will cease functioning doesn't matter to her, and she's the only one to whom it's relevant. Sad for her parents and her husband, though.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:55 PM

Thanks, Xander or Zander, if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:41 PM

Whatever, Martin Gibson...whatever...

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM

Xander

Did you ever get X'd out?

I hear you have a whole chapter of your autobiography on coprophilia and how you have sworn to abide by it's teachings this Easter.

It comes right after your entertaining chapter, "my life as a pus pimple and other tricks with mirrors."

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

Seems to me, Jimm, that since his legal wife, Terri, communicated her wish to not be kept alive in the condition in which she exists right now (and this fact has been accepted by the courts) should the unthinkable ever happen, her wishes in this regard ought to be respected.

If I ever happened to be in her situation, I would not want my wishes to be circumvented by a bunch of opportunistic politicians who couldn't give a shit about me, personally, but were using me as a political tool just to help them get elected/re-elected, and be forced to remain in a persistant vegetative state indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:32 PM

I see; coprophilia does not exhaust Mr Gibson's talents, which extend to cross-species interests. What next?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Jimm
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:26 PM

Which family would that be. I understand that he is living with another woman with whom he has had 2 children.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:07 PM

What a riot!

what else do you want to talk about?

Dog-Genes want to talk about your mother? I'm sure she was quite a bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

Coprophilia is a recognised condition; well, perversion really.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

Developed quite a taste for them,apparently. All he seems to be able to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,the shrink
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:07 PM

As a yong boy Martin's mother made him eat sanitary products. Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Dong-Genes, I would rather be a smart-ass than a dumb ass which you are excellent at.

what else do you want to talk about?

SRS, I am not one of her attending physicians nor do i pretend to be. would you let one of your children die? probably. You have about as much soul and common sense as an extra-wide Kotex.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:53 PM

To go back to the title of the thread:

...unloved and lonely, probably after her parents have left this earth.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

Martin, Don Firth was calling on his own knowledge and experience to address a matter relevant to the subject of this thread. Addressing matters relevant to anything other than your desire to be a smart-ass is not really your long suit. Mr. Firth's personal hygiene is not really in question. Your mental hygiene, however, is.

Go ahead. Attack my genetic material.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM

Health care rationing is nothing new under the sun. Decisions not to treat based upon inability to pay decisions are made hundreds, if not thousands of times a day across the US in hospitals, clinics, and doctors offices.

I am greatly relieved at the judge's ruling not to reopen this can of worms. Let's hope the appeals are turned down as quickly in Atlanta and Washington.

There is one question the Right to Lifers never want to answer about this case: what about the thousands of other patients who will have their feeding tubes removed by their legal guardians this year?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM

Don Firth:

Thank you for taking the time to tell of your experience and knowledge of bed sores. I had to care for one that went 'bad' under supposedly good care conditions.

Carol thanks for the info on the Texas laws and our Commander In Chief's experience on 'both sides' of the issue.

There is a growing issue, addressed differently in different states and different countries, of allocating services to those who can use them. We are idealizing the case of Ms. Schiavo to an extent, that her bed, her medications, and the manhours devoted to maintaining a body with to all intents and purposes, no brain, are being ignored. Over the number of years that this significant amount of time materials, and money has gone to Ms. Schiavo it could have been put to other uses, to serve people with real problems who had a chance of getting better. For some time now it has been obvious to experts that Ms. Schiavo is not going to get any better. She's been gone for some time.

I know this is a loaded subject, but I don't think Ms. Schiavo minds.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:39 AM

The law you just described is the one I was asking about, SRS. It was also discussed in the link I put in my 21 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM post to this thread.

Apparently, according to Texas law, a hospital can make decisions about life support independent of the wishes of the families of the patients in question, based on the family's ability to pay. I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea that lack of financial means can be used as the deciding factor for hospitals to determine which people will be allowed to remain on life support, and which ones won't. Especially if the the wish of the person responsible for the patient is for the patient to remain on life support. It's a very tricky question, though, and I don't think there are any easy answers.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:43 PM

Which law? I don't know the Texas case, just what I read and evaluated according to what I've seen in such places. My thoughts on that law should be clear--it sounds like it was put into place to prevent people who don't have sound judgement from abusing the healthcare system, not put there to boot out poor or minority babies. In the Schiavo instance over the weekend, I think it's an abomination, an abuse of the Congress by members of Congress as they butt into matters that are strictly none of their concern.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM

How do you feel about that law, SRS?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:22 PM

Having spent time in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, I can say from experience that I can't imagine healthcare people willingly pulling the plug on a baby because of ability to pay. They don't take the death of a child lightly or expediently--not at all. This said, there is limited space in these facilities, and it must seem like a profligate waste of resources to have the parent of a brain-dead baby sucking up the time and money and space resources that could be used to save another baby.

We have made a point over the years to attend the annual NICU reunion at the children's hospital here in town, because as I remind my son who spent two weeks there, it isn't really for him as much as it is to reinforce a feeling of success for those doctors and nurses. They need to see their former patients grow and thrive, because a lot of those little ones don't make it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:00 PM

So I'm assuming that all of the people who are so outraged at the idea of removing the feeding tube from Terri Schiavo are equally outraged about the law in Texas that allows hospitals to make the decision to remove life support against the wishes of the families, on the basis of the families' inability to pay.

And I also assume that they support allowing large malpractic settlements against doctors, like the one Terri Schiavo received, that has helped to pay for her care for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:36 PM

OH---that is a great comment SRS

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:35 PM

Okay Martin, I'll happily defer to your opinion as I have suspected from your posts that you are in a vegetative state yourself......How can I argue with that kind of first hand knowledge?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:31 PM

Martin Gibson, if YOU were one of her attending physicians, Terry would surely yank the tube out by herself just to escape your vitreol.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM

Yeah, Spaw, it's a no brainer to yank that tube out of Terry, isn't it?

Because you are one of her attending physicians, right?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

How little grasp the media have and the silliness they are willing to impart on this tragic tale was in evidence on our local news this morning. They had a couple with a child with CP who has a feeding tube. The girl IS responsive and typical of those on the lower scale of CP function. Not a lot there but certainly functional on many levels. The parents and the news folk showed the tube and then said how they could never make such a decision blah, blah, blah.

I can't believe the parents would even consider comparing the situations, but indeed they did and the news folks ate it up!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:48 PM

Don Firth, who gives a damn about your behind? Worry about the odor.

What's the opposite of a "right to lifer?" A "right to deather?"

As if this country was founded on the pursuit of death, liberty, and justice?

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:51 PM

No problemo, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, CarolC, fir doing the blue clicky/research on Sun Hudson's premature death because his parent's were poor...

Same stuff that is keeping Terry Schiavo alive tonight, byy an act of Congress, was what was taken from this poor black kid before he died...

Hey, I know there are a couple of folks here who think I just make up stuff. Might of fact, I got a nasty PM from one of them today but, hey, I don't. No, I might be a little too buzy working my barins out trying to make a living in Boss Hog's Amerika but I ain't friggin' stupid. I read lots of stuff, stick it in my thinerator, and go on... So what if I can't remember exactly where I l;earned somethin'???

Yeah, I heard or read about this Texas/Bush pull-the-plug-on-poor-folks a while back... Thanks agin for the assist, CarolC, fir the link...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM

A GUEST said, in part:

And who paid to fly the 200+ members of the US House back to DC so they could vote on this?

This afternoon, on NPR, I heard just a scrap of a feature about this case. I have to admit that I didn't catch all of it.

But as I understood it, in the Senate session there were only three (that's right, 3!) Senators present for the vote, MUCH less than a quorum, so they went on what's called a "unanimous consent rule". So if three Senators all agreed and no-one suggested the absence of a quorum, they exercised the function of the full Senate.

If that is correct, it's not just wrong, it's not just shameful-- It's shocking, criminal in my view. It shows the extent to which the politicoes are willing to go to subvert not only the law but the Constitution for their political ends.

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm afraid what I understood was what was intended by the NPR feature.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM

So that was no rumor about the Texas law, according to this article...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support

By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

"The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother.

Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

'I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months .... They made a terrible mistake.'

Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

'This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long. It's always sad when an infant dies. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive.'

The hospital's description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother's. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from accepting Hudson's invitation to see the baby in the neonatal intensive care unit, citing patient privacy concerns.

'I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself,' Hudson told reporters. 'So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious.'

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient."


So it really does boil down to the government deciding who is allowed to live and who is allowed to die. I must say, I am very strongly against this trend.

Subject: RE: BS: How Terri Schiavo Will Die
From: jaze
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:09 PM

Interesting that W felt compelled to fly back to Washington to intervene in this, when a number lost their lives under his reign in Texas. Right To Life? I guess it's for him to decide which life, huh?