Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: breezy
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

No diss, but Sounds like the band name aint worth much so go again and good luck.

Start as a duo with someone, go trio when ready but dont be in a hurry.

The worst scenario is when the worst muso is the leader!!! and is a control freak.!!!!!

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Sliptrack
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM

RichM:-

My comments were based on the opening facts of the Topic referring to the splitting up of the payment for gigs etc. and I directed my comments to the leader of a semi-pro band.

To reply to your comments (which I take in the manner they were written and with no offence taken or given - hopefully)

Amateur musicians who invest time and energy in a band do not always have the luxury of selecting first rate musicians
The band is not what I would call "amateur" - as for talent, I have found a great amount of talent out there in people who play at sessions, floor spots and just in their bedrooms, it's the recruitment of such people that leads to good if not great bands and not band members made up of wanna be's and friends (though this can work if they have the perseverance to learn their trade). GIGO

Any product put out for sale should be worthy of purchase, I have seen many bands over the years get a bad name by being too quick in offering themselves for paid gigs when they weren't ready.

As important to me as giving a first rate performance, is allowing aspiring performer of lesser levels to be immersed in a performance situation, and learn from mistakes, and progress in their abilities.

In part I will agree, but it does depend on where you are playing, sessions, freebee gigs and practises are the place to involve potential members, and only when they are capable of becoming full time members of the band should they be put on the payroll/line-up - If their involvement is in ratio to their ability e.g. the whistle player can play a couple of tunes well, guest them for those numbers, and expand from there. It's not fair to inflict an incompetent member on a paying audience or put that pressure on other members of the band.


One also has to look back to the purpose of the band: Was it to perform at an already outstanding level? Or to encourage and allow amateurs of lesser experience to progress

Again I say "Horses for Courses" - If I had hired the band and they were playing/singing out of tune, I would not have been happy! if it was a freebee or in a session, I wouldn't have been impressed or consider hiring the band.

I do feel Guest UKTed was not really serious when posting, as he was well aware of the action he'd taken and the reasons why, and was only looking for support for his actions. He set up the band, he recruited the musicians, he supplied the PA and bookings and he decided on the split from the revenue.

If he wants a good band he needs to rethink, or start again setting up his rules for the start e.g..

Recruit competent or potential members (then work with them to gain a tight sound)

Practice and arrange the music and sets.

Then when they're ready, use his ability to get gigs that are within their capability (if they only have 8-10 good songs/tunes there's no point in doing a whole night, far better doing one spot well, than two or three with lots of mistakes).

Inform all the members before accepting gigs, how the money from the gigs will be apportioned, e.g. money for agents fee, travelling cost, PA use, etc to be taken out first the rest then split equally.

Ensure everyone is available for the gig and will not let him down unless impossible to avoid reason, and what will happen if they do let him down.

Running a professional band is just like running a business and should be treated as such.

I may sound harsh but note I am talking about professional and semi professional bands who expect to get paid for making music, not friends having a thrash around and making music just for fun or a few beers down the local.

Good luck UKTed, with finding members of your band that are willing to put the time and energy into getting it right and lay your cards on the table from the start along with you mission statement

Sliptrack

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM

Points well taken. We don't make a living off music but I still try to put on a good performance and be professional. I'd hoped the whistle player would improve and should have spoken up sooner when it just wasn't happening. But I didn't want to be too direct for fear of hurting somebody's feelings. I did tried to hint around but never came out and said anything flat out - such as "If you don't show some improvement you're out of the band". It didn't help that the melodeon player has something of a crush on the whistle player and always tells her how great she is. In retrospect, I should have bitten the bullet and made my concerns known. This incident has caused me to rethink the entire concept of the band, which is what I should have done a long time ago.   I don't know what I was thinking, having someone who was only acceptable as long as somebody played louder than her to cover up the mistakes. It really hit me when I thought about playing an entire three set gig with an off key whistle and occasional shaky vocals distracting me in the background. A melodeon can cover up a lot of this...

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: RichM
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:39 PM

Sliptrack, I think any band that you put together would meet your criteria--I mean that sincerely as a compliment.

Amateur musicians who invest time and energy in a band do not always have the luxury of selecting first rate musicians...and in my opinion, as an optimist, I like to see people learn and progress from being included in a band... Sometimes though, one makes errors in selection, and its usually only when a situation develops, like the one in the subject case , that a crisis erupts.

As important to me as giving a first rate performance, is allowing aspiring performer of lesser levels to be immersed in a performance situation, and learn from mistakes, and progress in their abilities.

One also has to look back to the purpose of the band: Was it to perform at an already outstanding level? Or to encourage and allow amateurs of lesser experience to progress?


My thoughts anyway, presented without trying to one-up anyone here!



RichM

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Sliptrack
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

It amazes me that you have the front to take gigs knowing that at least 1/3 of the band wasn't competent!

I suggest you cancel all forthcoming gigs, get some accomplished musicians, practise, practise, practise and only when you have a product worth putting on the market, put the band out for hire.

You may only work for "pin money" having a "real job" but you should still be professional in your act and your dealings.

Its time like this that the trade description act should apply to services.

as we used to say in the RAF "Get Some In"


Sliptrack

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM

>They could have been very successful (If only they'd had the balls to be able to open with each >other), but ego and a lack of leadership got in their way.

Is this the most common epitaph for failed bands?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM

Spot on PB - music to my ears. Where gropus/bands are concerned there's a simple formula. Count the number of members in the band. If the sum total can't be expressed musically as a percentage greater than 100, then some adjustments need to be made to the formula (you know - the one that produces REAL chemistry).

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: PoohBear
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:13 AM

LJ - you must be worth your weight in gold at a sound board. It is not easy to balance sound, either at a recording or live gig, so that all are happy with it. One of my pet peeves with almost any group is the idea that all instruments and voices must be at the same (usually too loud) decibel level. I was taught, 100 years ago, in choir, that music is not only the notes, but the silences between them. Also, that to sucessfully be a GROUP, you must listen to the other performers and blend with them. IMHO, a band is not a band, merely a collection of bodies with musical instruments, unless they learn to listen to one another and play together, not just beside each other.
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. . . time for a little smackerel of something. . . honey, Guinness. . .
Cheers
PB

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:12 AM

_" if you start off as friends you probably wont be for long
- you may become friends as you go along - and then fall out later
- no matter how amateur you all are ego will out !
- a decision based on what is good for the music will probably be bad for the friendshiP!

All in all being in a band is a tricky mix of camaraderie, friendship,PASSION for music and fertile ground for umbridge to be taken!"

Madeline sums it up pretty well.

Having recorded some band sessions it's interesting to study the group dynamics. On one particular mixdown I produced different samples for the band to listen to and make a decision on the final tracks for the CD. The accordian player (having played through the entire recordings) did not appreciate my editing sections out, and fading portions in, leaving the volume of the instrument lower to get (IMHO) a good balance. The other 3 members preferred my interpretation of what made for a good mix/balance. The accordian player was obviously miffed.

The final result was good quality - much better than their live performances (they never used a sound man; everyone played their instruments ALL the time (not good form folks!!) Instrumentally, they were all over each other like a rash.

It's a real shame, but the band broke up soon afterwards. They could have been very successful (If only they'd had the balls to be able to open with each other), but ego and a lack of leadership got in their way.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: jonm
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:05 AM

I personally think your only failing was in explaining the situation to the band : no melodeon player = no band = no gig. If the booker is then happy to accept an alternative performer for the same slot, that's not an issue with the band. Would they perform as a duo without you?

I play with a four-piece, members are over 100 miles apart. From the outset we have arranged and rehearsed material we normally play with any combination of two or three of us, or which two of the members perform solo, in addition to four-piece numbers. This means that if anyone cannot make it, or has done a flounce, we still have a gig and rehearsed material. Gives the audient some variety and each of us some time at the bar and an opportunity to tweak levels on the PA.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM

UK Ted: make sure you advertise the next gig here, especially if you are still with the old line-up. There are a lot of us who will turn out to watch. I especially look forward to the whistle showcase numnber.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM

Good man, Ted!

~S~

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

There are a couple of gigs coming up but not for a couple of months (obviously we don't gig for a living - we all have full time jobs). I'll see how things develop as to how I'll handle it. But I will have a couple of musos quietly lined up to fill in in case something like this happens again.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST, whistleblower
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:53 PM

If I, as a potter, have a teacup and saucer with a broken cup, do I offer for sale a saucer and the handle of the broken cup? No. I move on and sell a pitcher or a bowl.

You're the potter.

I'll have a pint of whatever John's drinking ...

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:32 PM

Whistle players are 10 a penny. Get another one ;-)

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:28 PM

Um, Ted, does the band have any remaining commitments as a trio?

If so, are you planning to honor the commitments? If so, what can you do short-term, to be sure you will HAVE a trio? :~)

Cuz, if you do have gigs lined up, you might want to be cautious in the short term and THEN replace them! :~) Because as you have said, it's your name out there as the band's business representative, so you won't want bookers associating pissy band members' actions with you!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: mad2
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:37 PM

having once toyed with being in a band myself ( i was crap) i learned the following
_ if you start off as friends you probably wont be for long
- you may become friends as you go along - and then fall out later
- no matter how amateur you all are ego will out !
- a decision based on what is good for the music will probably be bad for the friendshiP!

All in all being in a band is a tricky mix of camaraderie, friendship,PASSION for music and fertile ground for umbridge to be taken! Most folkies are going to be in parttime bands - meeting when you are completely knackered after work or having to sacrifice a saturday lie in to practice - another possible reason for tetchiness!

Bloody good fun though!

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

Guest Kay's example is a little different in that there was dishonesty involved. The gig wasn't cancelled, as the singer told the band. Nor had the band split up, as the singer told the booker. Sounds like the singer was getting back at the other band members, since he apparently was forced to leave the group, and he was probably pissed off. Not saying the band might not have had a good reason for getting rid of him, but he probably didn't agree. It can be difficult putting and keeping a band together - getting the right skill sets along with the ability to get along together, put in the work required, etc.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Kay
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:48 PM

We had a good one. One of the singers in our 5 piece arranged a gig for us.

Before the booking happened this particular singer left - not of their own will it has to be said.

They then told us that the gig had been cancelled - some obtuse reason was given.

They also told the booker that the band had split up and wouldn't be able to do the gig but that they would do it as a solo spot to save the day for the booker, did the gig, pocketed the dosh and the rest of us only found out about it later when the booker bumped into us at another gig.

Hows that for etiquette?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:38 PM

Barbara... I think that by giving a cancellation fee, it starts a bad trend... what if Ted had to cancel a show due to illness, would the others be expecting a fee from him? Or, if he had obtained another performer to look after the night, would he still be responsible for payment? It was a rough situation that Ted handled pretty well, based on what was given for info here.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:04 AM

You could give the whistle player a cancellation fee (some portion of what she would have made at the gig) and ease your conscience and her gripe. Then work out a plan for future contingencies.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Melodeon player
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Me first, I'm going to give you a good kicking!

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Whistle player
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:48 AM

You bugger! Just wait till I get you home!

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:42 AM

A lot of good points have been brought up and it has made me wonder why I've been putting myself through all this when perhaps a clean break was in order some time ago. I don't dislike either of the other members (the whistle player is quite attractive but not really my type, by the way) and my decision was based on whether or not the music would be acceptable or not. I think had it been myself and the melodeon player the answer would have been yes, and I'd have explained the situation to the organizers and if they'd agreed, gone as a duo. I did try to be nice about it to the whistle player and explained that I didn't think our arrangements worked without the melodeon player, which is true. I didn't add that it might be a real disaster without the melodeon player covering up her weaknesses but that is also true, and perhaps I've been too nice about it - but I can't deal with the pouting and defensiveness. When things started out a year or so ago I'd hoped she'd come up to speed with practice, but that just hasn't happened and I might as well face it - it isn't going to.   I still don't agree with their perception that I "cheated" anybody out of their pay for a gig. Had it not been for me beating the bushes, making calls, sending demos, etc. there'd have been no gig.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:11 AM

M. Ted's got it right.

There was no "trio".

The issue became what to re-book, a lousy duet or a good solo. The show's the thing. The product being sold is the thing.

If I, as a potter, have a teacup and saucer with a broken cup, do I offer for sale a saucer and the handle of the broken cup? No. I move on and sell a pitcher or a bowl.

You're the potter.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: treewind
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:08 AM

Earlier, UK Ted said:
There has been a certain resentment on my part that the others haven't been pulling their weight...
Perhaps it's time to move on.

I think you've answered your own question. These things happen, and sometimes it takes a crisis like that bring the problem to your conscious attention, even though the underlying problem has been going on for some time.

The band's never going to work out well if you're carrying all that resentment with you - and what's the point of doing it if you aren't enjoying it?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:47 AM

I just wonder: Say the whistle player had been the one to flake out, and the melodeon guy WAS available? Would the duo of Ted and the melodeon player have fulfilled the gig?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: jimmyt
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:10 AM

I don't read it like that. He made the assumption that they are either a band (3) or not, and if not, he was only holding up the obligation to fulfil the booking as a solo as there really was not a duo that was ready to play properly. He did not put her out of the band. the band was not able to fulfil its oblifations by the other member who couldn't be counted on. If the other guy would have made other arangements to be there, I am sure he would have gone on as a trio. Final assesment seems that you need to either move on and find people you can count on or have a heart to heart talk with these 2 so you all know what is going on.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:09 AM

Jed, I would modify your statement - commitment to individuals who are themselves committed to the band, yes, I agree it comes first. But those who are not committed to the band effectively write themselves off, and deserve no loyalty.

The lady in question was not committed to the band, not putting in the effort required. Her place in the band was therefore forfeit.

There remains the responsibility of the bandleader to warn such uncommitted members, give them a chance and eventually let them go. This is where Ted fell foul, because he did not go through those steps and let the lady find out de facto that she was no longer a member.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Gypsy
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:36 PM

Yep, time for you to find like minded people to play with. Just watched the reorganization of a band that i guest with, do that very thing. And for similiar reasons (citing the 'pouty' and lack of rehearsal) Can be ugly, but sometimes necessary.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

I agree, Jed--but old Godfather rule applies--never go against the band, or you sleep with the fishes.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM

personal committment to band members is more important .. if th emusic suffers a bit, so be it.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: PoohBear
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:22 PM

Ted, I think you were well within your rights to fulfill the obligation on your own. I can't tell from the original post when you told the whistle player she wouldn't be needed - if you skipped that unpleasant part and just went without her she might have reason to be annoyed.
As the 'front' for the band you probably did a good job of protecting the group, as well as yourself, from getting a bad rep by not cancelling on short notice.
I've noticed in watching the ebb and flow of people in my husband's band that these relationships aren't easy, and most egos are easily bruised. However, most players I've seen, who really care about the music, would rather take hits to their ego than have bad gigs. Life is too short for that.
PB

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,other side
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:49 PM

Back when I was a lot younger, I used to do bookings for several clubs around my home town, so this is meant to be a look at your situation from the standpoint of the persons that hired you.

Clubs or organizations pretty well know what will appeal to their patrons. That's why they would hire people like me to find entertainer(s) that meet certain criteria. If they asked for a trio that is what they expected. In reality, the contract was canceled when you could not provide the trio. So you had two choices. (1) forget that gig entirely, and maybe suggest someone who they could contact in short notice, or (2) sell yourself as a solo replacement. You choose #2, and that is perfectly proper.

If you had never before performed as a duo, you had absolutely no right to expect them to hire a duo. Clubs hire you not because you are nice folks, but because they want to make money.

Get as far away from those other two as you can.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

If you think it's tough with a trio, imagine my issues with FIVE of us... I do all the booking, set lists, web site, songwriting, publicity, finances, but am also probably the weakest link musically (she says modestly).

When someone can't make it (a rare event), I find a substitute. Last time that happened, I publicized it as a "surprise guest fiddler" which drew a few extra to the audience, I think. If I can't find a substitute, we have occasionally gone on with four of us. There was the time we all rotated bass duties, some of which worked, some of which didn't. I have a setlist specifically for a missing bass player contingency, identifying who plays bass on which song. I also have a list of names of possible subs for fiddle, mandolin, bass, in order of preference. (If I or my banjo-playing husband can't make it, which hasn't happened yet, who knows?)

I think the guiding principle for me is to try to give the booker a good night of music and try to be fair to everyone. If I was totally unhappy with a band member, I agree with the "life's too short" philosophy to stay with that band.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Marion
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:53 PM

the guy who booked us held me responsible (literally--he held me by the collar, up against the wall)

Geez. I'm glad you solved your bandmate problem, Ted; were you able to solve your booker problem?

Marion

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: George Papavergis
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

Three people playing together don't make a band - not if they are not all three equally committed. They are just three people playing together.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM

Played in bands for years - know the problems. Supply and pay for PA: no arguments when someone leaves. If someone's not up to it - train 'em tolerate 'em or sack 'em. Why whinge?

If you're not happy with your band, why should the audience be?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:36 PM

Now, now Greg - where's your wooden spoon?!
(Nothing like a bit of controversy Eh?)

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:29 PM

This thread would be vastly improved if we could hear a few comments from the melodeon and whistle-player: dont know if anyone could point them in this direction?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM

Backing tracks - you meant it as a joke surely?

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Future of Folk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:24 PM

go solo with prerecorded backing tracks.. ????

well it is the 21'st century..

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:50 AM

Simple: split up. You dont like the rest of the band, and you dont like playing with them. LIfe is short. The only problem I can see with that course of action is if you are married to the whistle player(or even the melodeon player, but that seems less likely from the tone of your letters).

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:42 AM

Sometimes I think I'd like to form a band - then I read something like this and reassure myself I'm better off solo. If you are lucky enough to find like-minded and committed colleagues though I'm sure it's well worth the effort. 3 individuals didn't make a team in your case; you are right to split. The language you use "a bloke on melodeon, a gal that sings and plays the whistle" says everything about how you feel Ted.

Good luck with future music ventures.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:32 AM

UK Ted... I think you were able to take a bad situation and make it into an okay-but-not-great situation. You looked after the priority, which was making sure a replacement act that was capable of pulling off the night was available when the melodeon player booked off. It just so happened that it was you.

But from now on, you have to have a plan if the situation comes up. I am in a duo, and both of us know that if one has to cancel that the other will normally try to find someone to assist, or else that we will try to find a replacement act... usually, that still ends up in my hands since I know more performers in the city than he does, but that's besides the point. It's funny... I only sing, he sings and plays guitar. I look after all bookings, website updates, etc, and he looks after the music part of our act... 50/50 split, except for gas money (he usually drives). It seems to have worked out, but mostly because we have had it in place for a while, and we are both clear on our responsibilities.

Brian

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 AM

I missed this detail the first time around:

... was more comfortable doing my solo material, which I've honed over the years, rather than some half baked arrangements meant for a trio and performed by a duo...

I also sing lead, do all the arranging and booking, and have chosen and run the sound equipment (with bandmember husband's help on bucks). Our band trusts me to make a set list we can all survive, and to make ANY adjustments necessary on short notice to save a commitment that has been made in our name. This includes what we play, and who plays for any planned gig, or subs if needed and available. Trusts-- should read EXPECTS GRATEFULLY. Ain't always fun being in charge, and they know it! :~)

So ya know, when you are the lead singer, you have to go with what you can actually SING. This is where, as I see it and as someone posted above, you get off the hook. The BAND could not come but YOU could, so you did!

Just print this thread for them! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:20 AM

Midchuck said, in part:

The melodeon player finked on you, so the whistle player got punished.

Not so, in my opinion. "Punished" is the wrong concept. It's certain that she got a bad outcome from her point of view.

If one insists on "punished", it's punishment for doing a poor job, not for the melodeon player's actions. It just happened to be brought to a head by the circumstance of the melodeon player's not being available.

Seems like failure of human relations all around.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:17 AM

s&r and Midchuck, you have obviously never had to deal with a band member who wasn't solid on their part, and either couldn't or wouldn't do the work to get where they needed to be.

I played in band that with a couple of folks who were not big on practicing----Someone approached me with a season's worth of work for a small ensemble, just the three of us--the material that we did, plus bunch of similar but new. They both had "other committments" when it came to practice, but kept telling me they were fine on the new stuff.

Comes the first gig, and we fell apart completely--the guy who booked us held me responsible (literally--he held me by the collar, up against the wall) he told me to get the music together fast--went back and told them we needed to do a lot of work fast--They said, "Were the melody instruments, you're just the guitar player. You don't tell us what to do."

Next morning, I took my music folder down to the music department at the local college, asked around, and found two 19 year old kids who'd never heard the music before but were good sight readers. When I auditioned them, they sounded better than the other two, and by the third job, they knew the music cold--

The first two were really mad at me, but the booker loved it.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:14 AM

Old fruit yourself, FT!!

A

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:03 AM

"POUTY" "TACITURN" Sounds to me like you don't need the grief Ted old fruit. Start again.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:31 AM

Thanks, everyone, for the input. All told, perhaps I WAS a bit of a prat but it brought to the surface many of the frustrations and concerns I've had about these individuals and their attitude towards music and performing. No question the whistle player is musically the weakest link - I was hoping her timing, etc. would improve with practice but it hasn't and she gets pouty when anybody brings it up. I've had some complaints about her (mostly from other musos in the audience). The melodeon player is quite competent but a very taciturn chap who doesn't do much for the energy of the group. For a while I've had the feeling that they've been coasting along - showing up and getting paid (and sometimes whining about it not being enough)while doing nothing about getting bookings, updating the website, arranging, etc. It's time for a talk, they'll probably not like what I have to say, and there'll be some changes.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:49 AM

Did you pay the whistle player for the cancellation? If I was still in a band and the band was cancelled at short notice I would at least expect to keep the deposit.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Gypsy
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:37 PM

Technically, i suppose that you are correct. And i really don't know if i would have handled things too much differently. Or maybe i would have, depending on how much time i had available. But dis-inviting someone to a gig can be pretty cold, at the very least. Have seen this in another band that i sometimes guest in. If the whistle player cannot make things work as a duo, some other alternatives would be: find a temporary third player, or, permanently replace the whistle player. It would be difficult to diplomatically explain to the whistle player that yes, you are good enough if there are enough players to cover you up/cover for you, but not good enough if the audience can really hear you.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:58 PM

I see your problem, and your reasoning, but I tend to agree with s&r. There's a break in the chain of logic.

The melodeon player finked on you, so the whistle player got punished.

In any event, you'd probably be better off going solo. You can't function as a trio, playing out, unless all three people understand that once they have a gig, they show up unless they're in jail or so sick that they can't even crawl onto the stage. And if you have anyone in the group that goes to jail very often, you also have a problem.

Just my not-very-well-considered opinion.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: rhyzla
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:43 PM

I think you are only a prat if you continue to play in a trio where you do most of the work, and still take one third.

Give yourself a payrise, and tell the other 2 they will get less or they can bugger off!! At least it will clear the air .....maybe!

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:34 PM

I think you made a valid decision and it seems that, short of her having big tits, it is time to reevaluate your group and make sure they are a fit with you.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: breezy
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM

Does the whistle player have big tits?

If not, Go solo.

Sounds like You aint got a band that works as a team.

You can still invite individuals to join you if you feel so inclined but protect your position first.

like wise if you get invited elsewhere, your free.

Been there.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:06 PM

You made a sensible business decision. Employees not satisfied. Dog bites man.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:40 PM

I'm not sure of the usual meaning given the "east side" slang term "prat." My read on your response to the situation you were presented with is that you acted reasonably. If you had concerns about keeping the trio together, it would have been wise to explain the circumstances to the whistle player. She might have backed out of the gig graciously, had she been given the chance. It does sound as though the cohesiveness of the group was already under stress, so maybe you should be courteous and move on. Band break-ups are a lot like divorces in the emotional sense: rarely, if ever, easy, but sometimes very necessary for the good of all concerned, though it may not seem so at the time. One way around such problems in the future is a simplified "contract" or agreement that spells out what happens when those unexpected situations arise, and who decides what to do.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:38 PM

It's hard to judge the situation fairly because we're only hearing from one of the band members.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

You should have discussed the matter with the whistle player first. It sounds as if yous changed the booking, one she was still prepared to honour with you behind her back. If I'm reading it correctly, yes I think you are a prat.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:01 PM

You're the band leader, and the booker, so you call the shots. But you did the right thing.

The band is a trio--if you don't have a trio, you don't have your band. The organizers said they'd take your solo stuff in place of the band, which stiffed them. That was pretty decent, if I'd been promised a band and I got a solo act instead, I might be a bit upset.

If your singer/whistle player has a problem, it is with the melodeon player who backed out on a committment. You also have a right to be angry at the melodeon player, because you booked the job, and he stiffed you, leaving you in hanging in the lurch.

The only thing is that the folks in the band might not see it that way. Over the years, I've led a number of bands, and, like you, ended up writing and arranging, doing the bookings, and all the heavy lifting. I always divide the proceeds equally, and even at that, I've had people who felt they deserved more--

My thought is that the melodeon player probably told the singer she deserved to play and get half in order to distract you from the fact that he made a committment, and then backed out.

I'd have found someone to fill in for the melodeon player so that you could play the job. Now that it's over, I'd still think finding a replacement, because not only can't you rely on him to make the gigs, he still wants to tell you how to divide the money--

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM

Actually s&r may have hit the nail on the head and I might be better off looking for a couple of other musos or striking off solo again. If I'd felt that the whistle player would bring anything to the table, had really worked on the arrangements and was putting in some effort, it would have been different. But she hasn't put in the time or effort that's needed and it shows. There has been a certain resentment on my part that the others haven't been pulling their weight and are just showing up for gigs half cocked with their hands out for the money at the end of the evening. Perhaps it's time to move on.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

Well..... it's given you all something to discuss.... I would say that although you were under pressure and could not think of it at the time, it might have been an option to include the whistle player/singer but change the set list to give her a few feature numbers.... not sure how the venue would have taken that.

Sounds like it was a good solution for the gig, but pretty much a no-win situation with the band.

But more urgently-- what the heck is the melodeon player doing telling you what you should have done with the situation he created??????? (I don't think you are the prat in this.)

Anyway this is the time to clarify a few things, thinking carefully about what you can actually live with in terms of agreements, finances, and ego aspects, for the future, with this buncha folks.

I'd be curious to know-- what would you LIKE to say to them? Not suggesting you say it to them, but it might be helpful to vent that with someone who can keep it private.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

There's no question that you had the right to proceed as you did, and your reasons sound good enough to me.

Of course, the human-relations questions can always be thorny, and it's very understandable that the whistle player feels cheated. It's complicated, isn't it?

From now on, all members of the trio will need to understand, in advance, what happens whenever any one member begs off. Can you function as a duo with the one player and not the other? Good luck trying to explain that to the odd-person out! Can you ~ and do you want to ~ work out a whole evening's worth of duet material with each of the other two?

Maybe the only workable alternative is to go back to being a solo ~ ??

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: s&r
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:35 PM

Venue faultless. Band relationship crap.

Stu

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

Venue was entitled to cancel band - not band booked.

Venue was entitled to book solo singer to replace.

Subject: RE: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: s&r
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:28 PM

Your melodeon player let you down so you sacked the whistle player.....

I'm sure there's some logic somewhere

Stu

Subject: Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat?
From: GUEST,UK Ted
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM

I have been performing off and on for a number of years, sometimes solo, sometimes as a duo and most recently with a trio. We've got a bloke on melodeon, a gal that sings and plays the whistle, and myself on guitar and sometimes fiddle or banjo. I'm also the lead singer and so far I've gotten all the bookings, done all the arranging, provide most of the sound equipment, etc. Nevertheless I've always divided the pay equally.   Not too long ago the melodeon player backed out of a committment we'd made months ago, and for a not very good reason. The singer/whistle player blends in okay with the trio (although there are some quality problems there) but I dont think that the arrangements work with just myself and her as a duo. I called the organizers and explained - they've seen me solo and said it would be fine for me to just come and do the show. Now the other two band members are brassed off, saying even though one of us couldn't make it I should have brought the other along and shared the pay. I don't feel I was under any obligation whatsoever and was more comfortable doing my solo material, which I've honed over the years, rather than some half baked arrangements meant for a trio and performed by a duo. The show went fine and the organizers were happy. I'd be interested to hear what others think.