BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

I'm sorry for that bit of gooble-gook in the second line of my last post.

I felt so strongly about my comments that I didn't review them before hitting the submit button.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM

I will say Amen to Guest 25 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM comments.

The same Guest might have written the comments recorded onregaon;sIt 25 Mar 05 - 02:23,but I can't don't agree with any of those comments.

Firstly, I'm not interested in "picking" on anyone from the person in the White house now to those who post here-names known or unknown.

And I don't think it's relevant who hurts or has been hurt the most.

If Guest 25 Mar 05 - 02:23 is unsure that we all love and that we all suffer and grieve for loved ones, he or she might want to re-read the numerous personal accounts that have been posted lately in the "High Court Rules In Terry Schiavo Case" and "for those going through Hard Times} and other related threads.

Maybe then he or she will get a clue and re-evaluate his or her ability to accept all folks as brothers and sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM

The President has many choices among ways to address the grief of sudden death. I feel free to pick on him for whatever he decides to do no matter what that is. So if he GOES to Red Lake I'll be on the wasteful expense in time and useless publicity in bringing his entourage to remote locations among those poor folk he never would be thinking about otherwise.

And I feel free to pick on whomever i want to because I know all your names but you don know mine.

In any case I'll make the point that me and mine hurt more and deeper than you and yorn.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

The president can find his way to Florida after the hurricanes, can't he? He intervened in the Terri Schiavo case didn't he? He can go on and on ad nauseum about the fallen troops, the victims of 9/11, etc etc.

But he can't be bothered to hold a press conference and offer condolences on behalf of the nation to the victims of Red Lake?

My comments aren't about "hating Bush". My comments are concerned with the leader of the nation not acknowledging this devastating attack, which touches all Americans so deeply, except via press release through his press secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:09 AM

John Hardly - hear hear!

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:46 AM

I didn't care for it when Clinton visited Columbine. I don't care if Bush visits Red Lake.

When a politician imposes himself into a tragedy in which he lacks the power to be of help, it's not called compassion...

...it's called a photo op.

If Bush were to visit (for whatever good it might do?), I have no doubt that I'd read criticism of his being in the way and taking advantage of the situation to appear compassionate.

Given that there's no help he could offer, and lots of heartless disruption that a presidential visit would cause (a president doesn't travel alone), I prefer Bush's non-visit to Clinton's photo op.

Pretty much a sign of tunnel vision when EVERY issue gets turned into a discussion of how much the folk here hate Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:38 AM

"I wonder why our illustrious, oh so compassionate conservative president can't be bothered to fly to Red Lake, the way that Clinton did for the Columbine massacre, hmmmmm?"

Maybe because he wants to keep the publicity on Florida for political reasons??

My prayers go out to the families in Red Lake. My prayers also go to Terri's family [her husband and parents & siblings]. And I pray for the almost forgotten family of the baby in Texas who was taken off of life support against his parent's wishes because they had no money.

My prayers go out to families everywhere who are going through traumatic circumstances.

And I also prayer for this nation and this world since we obviously need all the help we can get.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:33 AM

Oh right--I remember why we haven't heard anything from President Bush--these are poor people.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:24 AM

Unemployment on Red Lake is 70%.

I wonder why our illustrious, oh so compassionate conservative president can't be bothered to fly to Red Lake, the way that Clinton did for the Columbine massacre, hmmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:20 PM

PBS television Thursday night had very good coverage on this sad event. They had an interview with one of the eyewitness survivers, a kid who knew the shooter. They were allowed to interview some family members who impressed me with their humanity and forthrightness. They of course, lost the boy who was the shooter, but also their older relative, the shooter's grandfather. They said that the kid had had some obvious problems, but he had received counseling, and been prescribed antidepressants. They were aware of his partiality to, for want of a better way of putting it, informationi on nazis and nazism (Though the web site he posted on, Libertarian National Socialist Greens, is pretty unique in the annals of racism).
I think there was a lot of honesty in the report, and I feel for those folk who not only suffered themselves, but live in a rural community surrounded by fellow victims.

I would question Bobert's observation that it ain't nice living on reservations. I heard the same statistics that you all have, 40% unemployment. In Alaska folks are way more isolated in native villages, and way more 'unemployed'. But the economy doesn't work the same as in urban areas. It is often a subsistence economy. some communities do much better than others in terms of both maintaining important aspects of their ancestral culture and coming to terms with the 'culture at large'. I am pretty ignorant about Lower 48 Style Reservations (We only have one reservation in all of Alaska). But what I've noticed is the native village that has a good idea of their own culture and language also has a good grasp of the overall culture because a good grounding gives them a good way to assign values to what comes in via all those cable channels. I've seen the opposite, too, a village having lost its own culture and not too up on the rest of the world either. It was sad, and somewhat dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:59 PM

Well, I fir one, am glad to see this story getting a little air time... It seems that with the Right-to-lifers monopolizing the news for the lasy 2 weeks that I was wondering if the media was gonna let this story just die... And if they had, I was gonna raise a ruckus here in Mudville...

Just a couple of thoughts... It ain't nice livin' on a resewrvation. Poverty is rampant on many of them and when ya' really look at it, the United States in these folks country and now they are living like in camps...

Secondly, and this is more universal to the entire country, we ain't doing a very good job a rasing the next generation of kids. They got too much fake violence on their TV's and computer games and all of 'um need to get into a boxin' ring a couple times a year and get bloodied up so that they unnersatnd that violence hurts.. Plus, they need their moms and dads to be at home more but Boss Hog has mom and dad working their brains out trying to pay for all of Boss Hog's housing and medical care and so the kids is getting jipped...

And then, fir God's Sake, we need to take a hard look at keeping guns in the house where the kids can get 'um... When my kid was growing up he knew that if he were going to get to my guns he would have to hick my butt first an', well, he turned into a purdy big boy but never got to thinkin' that he could kick my butt... Especially since he growed up seein' me in a few sparrin' sessions down at the dojo where his mom taught karate...

So, them is my thoughts fir now other than my prayers and deepest thoughts for the families of everyone involved, including the shooter...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:38 PM

Looks like we're much closer in mind than I previously though PB.

I just watched the local news, which showed the Columbine student in the center of a sea of reporters. If she is who she says she is (stranger things have happened), it sure looked to me like she was an attention seeker extraordinaire.

There was a press conference in the Bemidji hospital where the 3 less seriously injured students are, but only two of them were willing to appear on camera. The third student refused, but his mom appeared. Then the hospital chased everyone out of the hospital, and the media and well wishers will now no longer be allowed beyond the parking lot. If it was up to me, none of those people would have ever been allowed in the hospital to begin with--they could damn well wait until the kids were out of the hospital at the very least, before shoving the cameras in their faces.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: PoohBear
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:41 PM

Actually, Guest, I'm not forgetting that thin line between well-wishers and weirdos. And the timing of visitors is not, IMO, at all appropriate. I was merely trying to suggest a different reason than your for the presence of some people. I prefer to believe they are there for 'good' reasons rather than to satisfy their own morbid curiosity, which is how I interprete the invasion of media. If I was part of that community, I imagine that I would want everyone, well-meaning or not, to just go away for a while and let me grieve.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Pauline L
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:29 PM

Katlaughing, thanks for posting the article by Scott Richard Lyons. It gives dignity and empathy to a situation which deserves these qualities.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:27 PM

It doesn't matter WHY they are there or WHO they are! These shooting victims have rights to privacy that even well intentioned people are violating.

Besides PB, all the "best practices" information among the educators in school shooting cases have said the need for privacy for victims and their families is paramount to their recovery and subsequent mental health after the fact. In fact, the example cited among educators and school psychologists who have done all the research on how to help the students after a school shooting--of how NOT to handle school shootings--is Columbine.

So while I can appreciate that is it might sound good in theory that students who have "been there" might be good to talk to, it is much too soon for that, and the choice as to whether to talk to well meaning Columbine students--after all, they are strangers to the shooting victims--should be up to the victims and their families. They certainly shouldn't show up uninvited in the wake of a school shooting. I don't know if that is the case here or not, because I haven't read the news reports on this yet. But the way this should be handled is principal to principal, not student to student.

This is exactly the reason why the tribal leaders are asking people to stay away.

I mean think about it. If you were in the hospital after a trauma, would you want strangers coming into your hospital as "well wishers"? I know I wouldn't, and if somebody tried to do that to my kid after such a huge trauma, I'd have them arrested.

But hey, that's me. I happen to think the right to privacy trumps the desire of well wishers, no matter how well intentioned, every time. You seem to be forgetting there is a thin line between well wishing strangers, and really creepy gawkers and wierd people who always try and attach themselves somehow to these sorts of things.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:18 PM

Scott Richard Lyons little essay above was actually a pretty shameful little essay with several predictable patterns which spread the blame to what was troubling him, Scott Richard Lyons. I am not going to do what others would do, call it a liberal pandering piece, because liberals are better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: PoohBear
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

Guest,
while I agree that the rest of the world should back off and respect the need for privacy for the people of Red Lake, I would questions your characterization of the Columbine students 'harrass'ing the kids in hospital. I would suggest instead that, meddelsome as it may seem, they are there to offer sympathy and support, as they are a few of the people around who can honestly say, at least to a certain extent, "I know what you're going thru". The masses of media, on the other hand, have on idea what these people have been thru, and frankly, I'm rather insulted (as part of the 'public') that they think the 'public's need to know' is more important than respecting the needs of the victims, their families and their community.
PB

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:24 PM

I really hate this part of it. Nobody, not even the Columbine students, should be able to get into the hospital and harrass these kids. Why can't they control the visitor process in these circumstances?

It is SO distasteful!

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:02 PM

Today I watched a press realease with two of the children in Bemidji hospital. Cody Thunder and Lance Crowe.
Cody was shot in the hip and physically recovering, although they didn't remove the bullet. Lance was shot in the chest. He couldn't talk about it when questioned.
What I appreciated was when an uncle came and talked to the press and told them to back off and quite with the leading questions. That the Elders hadn't even had a chance to speak with the boys yet.
Children fron Columbine where also at the hospital to talk to the boys. There are still three boys in Bemidji.
As they were leaving, Lance Crowe was crying and trying to hide his tears. I cried with him.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:30 AM

From Indian COuntry Today (link provided above:)

Lyons: Horror and hope at Red Lake Nation
Posted: March 23, 2005
by: Scott Richard Lyons

There's an old Ojibwe saying: Gego baapiineminaken gidaabinoojiiyug. Never laugh at your children. That motto invokes a sacred Anishinaabe value: manaaji'idiwin, or deep respect. We are to respect others, no matter how young or weak or strange, in part because what goes around eventually comes around. This especially holds true for children. Not only because they have power - as elders will tell you, the only person who ever tricked the Trickster was a child - but also because that child will one day be an adult.

I thought of this ancient Ojibwe wisdom when I heard about the horrifying and tragic school shooting at Red Lake Nation. It was reported that during the assault the shooter, Jeff Weise, was waving his arms and laughing.

Laughing.

Who, I wondered, had ever laughed at him?

This question of respect seems central to any understanding of the March 21 shooting. If we are to adequately comprehend this tragedy, we must approach the perpetrator, his victims and their tribal nation carefully and with utmost respect. So as we begin the process of mourning this sad, senseless event, let us be clear about one thing: at 16 years of age, Jeff Weise was still a child.

He was no monster, although some will doubtless say that he was. He was no Nazi, no matter how bizarre his Internet habits. He was not an ''Angel of Death,'' a ''Red Lake Rampager'' or a ''lost youth,'' or any other gimmicky stereotype the media might cook up in the absence of understanding. Jeff was a child. Yes, deeply disturbed. And one who somehow lost all sense of manaaji'idiwin. Why?

I'm not going to pretend to know the reasons why an individual would pick up weapons and start shooting children. Does anyone ever figure out why these things happen? Did we ever discover the One True Cause of the Columbine killings?

These things are complicated - as complex and immense as life and death and teenagers themselves. There can never be one cause for events such as these, and we should distrust anyone who claims to have easy answers. There are, however, certain conditions to consider, certain questions to ask, if we hope to build a world in which such things never, ever happen. And in Ojibwe country, we do have hope for that world.

First, as we find on so many reservations today, Red Lake Nation is a community of poverty. Thirty-nine percent of the population lives below the poverty line; 4 out of 5 students at Red Like High School qualify for free or reduced lunch. And we know that poverty breeds violence. It just happens that way - there are no impoverished communities free of violence.

Furthermore, this condition of poverty is not reducible to any failings of the Red Lake people, but rather owes itself to a much larger and irrefutable history of colonialism. Who among us has acknowledged that gaping historical wound and the traumas it repeatedly engenders? Is it possible to understand this tragedy separate from the related contexts of colonialism and community poverty?

Second, Jeff was a visibly Indian teenaged male, which means he was part of the least-trusted, most-feared social group in northern Minnesota. Everyone who lives in that part of the country knows it, whether they admit it or not: Indian teenagers are generally viewed as a problem. This is not the fault of teens (as if they would do it to themselves). This is a problem with the larger society, and its name is racism.

What social institutions hold great promise and high expectations for Native teenagers? Schools? Businesses? Mass media? Government? No. As with other teens of color, in northern Minnesota Native kids are typically more feared than nurtured, more disdained than celebrated, and nearly always publicly discussed as carriers of problems, not potentials. One predictable result of this general lack of respect is low self-esteem. Little wonder that, as a Harvard study recently concluded, 1 out of 6 Native teenagers today has attempted suicide. Aside from perhaps family and friends, who in the larger society is acknowledging that their lives are worth living?

Third, Jeff had no problem getting past the security system that Red Lake already had in place at the school, including a metal detector and a security guard. Presumably the metal detector went off, and he shot the security guard. As many have already noted, Red Lake High School is one of the most ''secure'' schools in the region, with towering fences and barbed wire circling the grounds. Can we now admit that excessive security systems at schools probably don't work to prevent massacres like this one? Might we suggest that they could actually contribute to a sense of children feeling like prisoners?

Finally, perhaps most important of all, Jeff was raised in a larger and truly worrisome cultural context of American violence. I'm not talking about video games and movies, although these too are problematic. I'm referring to an America that repeatedly sends a clear and disturbing message to its citizens and children: namely, if you have a problem with somebody else, violence is the best way to solve it.

At 16, Jeff would have possessed no memory of an extended period of time when the U.S. wasn't engaged in the practice of bombing some country it had a grievance with. During his most formative years, he saw this nation's president abandon diplomacy and cooperation for ''bring it on'' and ''shock and awe.'' In this context, how can we reasonably expect Jeff Weise, or any teenager, not to consider armed violence an appropriate answer to life's problems?

It will likely be concluded by politicians and pundits that this shooting was an isolated act of violence committed by a lost youth, and that we probably need greater security and harsher punishments for dangerous teens. But clearly it was not an isolated incident. It was a social incident. And Jeff was already subject to heightened security and harsh punishment - which don't seem to have done any good.

Let us stay focused on the big picture, the social context in which children, including but not only Natives, are raised. From the very moment of his birth, Jeff's life was defined by violence - the violence of community poverty, the violence of racism, the violence of little respect and few opportunities, the violence of guns, security systems, punitive politics and growing militarism. Until these acts of everyday violence are put to an end, how can we ever expect our children to live peacefully? How can we raise our children to treat themselves and others with manaaji'idiwin?

America needs a Peacemaker to emerge, and so does Native America.

One bright light during these dark days is the tremendous dignity with which Red Lake Nation, so honorably represented by Tribal Chairman Floyd ''Buck'' Jourdain, is handling the crisis. In particular, Red Lake's refusal to allow media vultures to harass the community was an act of great wisdom and foresight. The community is already reorganizing itself, and their spirit is strong. Red Lake will heal from this. And all of Indian country is behind them. There is courage and compassion and respect there - and where those virtues exist, so too does hope.



Scott Richard Lyons, Leech Lake Ojibwe, teaches writing, literature and Native American Studies at Syracuse University.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:37 AM

I'll post this, since it is short & the paper it was in is a registration only site:

Victims in Red Lake school shooting no different from your own children

By Kent Nerburn


OXFORD, England - I awoke this morning to the leafy richness of an Oxford University spring day, far from the cold confines of my northern Minnesota home. I am here across the pond with a group of students from a small Minnesota university who are having their lives changed by a series of brilliant lectures and a city of timeless civility.

But as I sit here, another group of students from the Red Lake Reservation near my hometown in Bemidji, Minn., also are having their lives changed. But those changes are coming at the hand of a student who walked through the hallways of a high school where I once taught and aimed a gun at the teachers with whom I once worked and the children of parents with whom I have shared tables and friendship.

It is a sad and tragic story, made all the more poignant by my knowledge of the people, the reservation, and the land on which this all took place. I wish there was something I could do.

But I cannot reach across to my friends; I cannot be there to share the grief of the Red Lake community that I have grown to know and love. What I can do is reach out to all of you in your cities and homes and commuter trains and ask you to watch.

Watch as the journalists and TV reporters fly out from their home cities, land in Minneapolis, catch a commuter flight to the small airport in the forests of Bemidji, and drive their rental cars 30 miles north through the pine and poplar to the Red Lake Reservation. Watch them push their way as near as possible to the school building that sits on the gravel parking area near the edge of the great northern lake that gives the reservation its name.

Watch them go into the tribal offices, try to interview the tribal chairman, a young man with a dream of making his reservation a better place, and then scurry back on the dark country roads to their hotels in Bemidji, where they can issue dispatches about a student caught in a culture of poverty and hopelessness on a rural reservation.

It will all be quite earnest and at least partially true. But it will not get to the heart of the matter. It will not show the love and sense of family that are at the core of the reservation.

What it will do, I'm afraid, is reduce this tragedy to a sociological event. ``Rural reservation'' is carte blanche for journalistic speculation about social problems and cultural hopelessness.

I know Red Lake. I know those kids. They are just like my students asleep in their beds here in Oxford, just like your children brushing their teeth and packing up their books down the hall from where you are sitting and reading this.

It was Sitting Bull, the great Lakota chief, who said it best: ``Come, let us put our minds together to see what kind of life we can create for our children.''

Those children in Red Lake are your children. Hear their cries and the cries of their parents as if they were your own.

KENT NERBURN is a former teacher at Red Lake High School. He is founder and past director of Project Preserve at Red Lake High School on the Red Lake Reservation. He wrote this article for Pacific News Service.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:15 AM

Yup. This was one terribly screwed up kid. But do we need the gory details from the NYTimes to tell us what is as obvious as the nose on our faces? Most of us, even when life plays rough with us, don't go on killing sprees.

Isn't our energy and attention better directed at those who survived?

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Pauline L
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:03 AM

Today's NY Times has a very interesting article about the student/killer, Mr. Wiese. He posted frequently and extensively on the
Web, writing and providing pictures and videos about death, killing, and suicide. His posts would give a very strong warning of what was to come. Unfortunately, few people on the reservation had Internet access. If they had read and seen his posts, history might have been very different.

Here is an excerpt from the Times article:

"A loner in real life, Mr. Weise, who also killed his grandfather and his grandfather's companion and wounded seven people on Monday, found a community of sorts in cyberspace, confiding his problems with depression, loneliness and abuse to people who cheered his macabre short stories and drawings and sympathized with his racial ideologies.

On Wednesday, some of his Internet pen pals lamented that there had been warning signs they missed, including a gory zombie tale Mr. Weise apparently wrote about a school shooting that mentioned Columbine, an animated film he posted in which a killer committed suicide, and an eerie message that, in retrospect, seems to foreshadow his fate.

Things are "kind of rocky right now so I might disappear unexpectedly," Mr. Weise wrote Feb. 6 on a Web forum where members collaborate to write fiction.

Last October, he posted an animated film on newgrounds.com. In it, a man shoots people with a rifle, unleashing flashes of red blood across a simple black and white drawing, then tosses a hand grenade into a police car, puts a pistol in his mouth and commits suicide.

[...]

In another message, Mr. Weise wrote that his mother "would hit me with anything she could get her hands on," and "would tell me I was a mistake, and she would say so many things that its hard to deal with them or think of them without crying."

Most troubling, perhaps, was the story of a shooting spree he posted on a site called Writer's Coven in December 2003. In it, he wrote of a character dressed all in black, a teacher with a Hitleresque moustache, and complaints about how the shooting at Columbine High had led to increased security on campus.

As in Monday's rampage, one of the victims at his fictional school was the security guard - "or what was left of him," the story said, his throat having "been ripped out, replaced by a bloody mass of torn tissue."

It went on: "In the distance, somewhere else in the school, the sound of a blood curdling scream echoed through the hallways."



The Times article has more gory details.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:44 AM

"I'll suggest something which is probably controversial. If the guard at the entrance to the school had been armed, a lot of tragedies could have been prevented."

Why do USians almost always get their logic skewed through 180 degrees? You live in a society where 16 year old mentally disturbed kids find it easy to get hold of guns. I suppose that's why you've let a mentally disturbed adult get hold of cruise missiles and nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Pauline L
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:55 AM

I feel so bad about this shooting. I'd like to offer my condolences to the families, friends, and fellow tribespeople of those wo were killed. Although I can understand why the Native Americans on the reservation might feel that public reaction is colored by their ethnic and racial status, I believe that hatred and killing are everyone's problems.

Some comments on suicide: Suicide can be viewed as a disease with risk factors like other diseases. Some of the known risk factors are applicable to the student who killed himself. Suicide tends to run in families. Children of parents who commit suicide are more likely than other people to commit suicide. The student/killer's father died by suicide. People who have suffered a major loss are also at risk for suicide. The student's loss of his mother and his father, as well as his exclusion from school, would be major losses. Suicide also tends to appeal to people who are very controlling and feel out of control. There were many problems in the life of the student/killer which he could not control, but he could and did control his own exit from life. Add to this the many problems common on reservations, including poverty, drugs of abuse, alcoholism, disgracefully substandard medical care, and feelings of racial injustice, and the situation was very volatile. These may be explanations, but certainly not excuses, for the mass killings.

I'll suggest something which is probably controversial. If the guard at the entrance to the school had been armed, a lot of tragedies could have been prevented.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

I'd esp. recommend the excellent op/ed piece HERE at the above website.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:49 PM

If you want to read about it, from an NDN view, they've got articles up at Indian Country.

katwithsaddenedheart

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Yup, that's me Rustic Rebel. I'm not convinced it isn't the FBI that has shut down the rez though. They have a higher jurisdiction than the tribal officials do, and the feds often come in and trump them on a lot of stuff to do with crime. I too read an article today from the Duluth paper that was one of the victim's relative complaining that the rez was cut off from the media, and blaming the tribal officials for that. But that might not be what is actually happening.

The idea that this will be dealt with differently in some ways than say the Ricori shooting, I think, is perfectly reasonable because of the cultural differences. As you noted, Red Lake is the least assimilated of all the reservations in MN.

But if you remember back to the Ricori shooting, they pretty much shut down communication with the media fairly quickly too, in order to deal with their students. I think the same thing is happening at Red Lake, ie the needs of the students is being put before the needs of the media. I think that is appropriate, and seems to follow the "best practices" (eduspeak there folks) are for schools where serious violence like this has occurred. Don't forget, they closed down Columbine for the remainder of the school year, and farmed the kids out to different schools to finish their year.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM

There is another thread with some talking about this but it isn't just about this subject.
In that thread a guest from MN was talking about how he/her thought all of this would just get buried because it happened on the reservation and with Indians. Is that you up there Guest?
According to the FBI that is exactly what the tribe wants to do. They said this is a first for any tribe that this has happened to, it happened on the largest reservation and to the most private tribe in MN.
Once the FBI is out of there they want to deal with it within their own nation. So if this does get forgotten I don't believe it will be a racial thing, but rather ah, word? Maybe pride?

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:10 AM

Unique is right! I got a real laugh out of it actually--some comic relief in all this tragedy. I think I've got this right. The kids were calling themselves the "Libertarian National Socialist Green Party"! Gotta love that one!

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM

There's another thread on this subject called "Gun Control".

I don't know many teens who don't go through troubled phases.

I would not jump to conclusions re: the Nazi angle. He was a disturbed teen and he might have just thrown that verbage at a wall to see what would happen. I've been to that web site and it's a 'unique' one, even for nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Davetnova
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:03 AM

My sympathies go out to all involved.
But please remember that this is not just an American problem nor just to do with gun control. Troubled teenagers kill in the UK too and no doubt in many other lands.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:54 AM

Brian (ToulouseCruise) I have just PM'd you - Not to do with this thread! Be grateful if you would get in touch.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM

Charley, it hasn't yet been confirmed those messages came from the alleged shooter, though they are believed to likely have been written by him. They were postings to a forum like this, not email messages.

There is A LOT of misinformation floating around. Such is the case when you are dealing with getting information, especially from teenagers who had ties to the victims and the shooter, in a small, insular community. A lot of what I'm hearing doesn't "ring true" to what I know the community to be, so I'm questioning most everything coming out on the national networks. Especially the goth, Hitler loving, neo-nazi stuff. The kid was 14/15 years old, and possibly flirting with that sort of stuff online, but that is a far cry from being involved in the neo-nazi movement.

The main "motive" from what most of us locally can figure, was just that this kid was badly troubled, fell through the cracks, was bullied, etc. The rest of the stuff you are hearing is the stuff of media hype for ratings, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:08 PM

People are capable of believing absolutely anything...specially if they're lonely and desperate. I bet there were a hundred kids in my school who fantasized about doing something horrible to people who picked on them or bullied them. God knows, I sure did. I used to imagine blowing up the whole school at times...but it would never have occurred to me to actually put my darker fantasies into real, physical action.

It amazes me how far some people will go when they're upset.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:23 PM

More sick stuff. Apparently the police have been sifting through Jeff's e-mail and there are several explicitly pro-Nazi ones that he sent out that among other things castigate native Americans that marry outside the tribe. I'm not sure how CNN got hold of them but they posted exerpts this evening.

At least some of the kids at the school knew that he was a very angry young man, and had talked about having a violent plan.

What a waste.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:34 PM

I'm jsut sick. Sympathies to the people involved.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

The wierd thing is , if there were tribal people in Germany,
Hitler probably would have included them in the groups he
planned to eliminate, torture, etc. along with Jews and gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

more info here..http://www.ojibwe.info/RedLake_shooting/index.html
apparently two were shot at home before he went to school.
he apparently used his granpa's police car and gun in this action.
sadly, his father committed suicide 4 years ago and his mother is
in a rest home with brain damage suffered in a car crash.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM

I want to send my deepest sympathies to the families and tribe of
Thurlene Stillday-15
Chase Lusser-15
Chanelle Rosevar-15
Alicia Spike-14
Derrick Brun-25-security gaurd
Dwayne Lewis-15
Neva Rogers-Teacher Born in '42
Daryl Lussier-58-grandfather.
Michelle Signa-32-friend of grandfather
Jeffery Weiss-16-shooter,
and the injured children that, for their protection their names were not given.

I simply echo this, What the F@@k is going on!
Skipy (with no silly comment to offer as this is very, very serious!)

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:59 PM

a city near me, Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada, just averted a potentially similar crisis... two students, aged around 15-17, were arrested for planning a takeover of the local high school. They had full plans to assault the school, kill the principal and a couple of teachers, as well as other students who had teased and bullied them. Luckily, a couple other students who overheard them talking about it brought it to the attention of the school, who contacted the police.

They were found with a quantity of gunpowder, plans from the Internet to make homemade bombs, and detailed thoughts/plans for their takeover. It's a huge relief that their peers were not afraid to speak up, but it is still so sad (and terrifying) to know that today's youth -- make that people in general -- can see these things as any sort of solution to whatever is happening in their lives...

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:56 PM

Chase Lusser's auntie was down here in the Cities yesterday when she got the news. She was here testifying on the casino gambling bill I think it was.

I wouldn't presume that no one believed this kid had a lot of problems. He was getting worked through the educational system already because of problems at school. In fact, if I understand his student status correctly, he shouldn't have been in school, and was in a program where school tutors went to the home to work with him.

I've also heard reports that his friends have described him to some media people as being both depressed and suicidal.

That says to me that people were aware he had problems. The thing is, none of us has a crystal ball to foretell the future.

I am relieved to see I don't know any of the family names on the list Rustic Rebel provided.

There is a drum ceremony at the State Capitol starting in a few minutes, to honor the dead and wounded (being held at the same time the shooting began yesterday).

Your heart just breaks thinking about this. I'm pretty depressed today by the whole damn thing.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

I sometimes wonder why no one knew of this kid's pain, and if they did, why didn't any one see or feel this explosion coming.

There are usually warning signs, I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:42 PM

A person would do such a thing because he felt completely alone and powerless, I would assume. The final act of shooting himself is the last, sad attempt to control his situation, instead of being at the mercy of others and under their control. I think that is usually the issue driving such people to commit violent acts.

As such, it's their misperception of their own situation, as well as a reaction to outer conditions which they find painful in some way. In attempting to deal with their own pain, they cause pain to many others.

Subject: BS: (Not BS) Red Lake Shooting
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:36 PM

I want to send my deepest sympathies to the families and tribe of
Thurlene Stillday-15
Chase Lusser-15
Chanelle Rosevar-15
Alicia Spike-14
Derrick Brun-25-security gaurd
Dwayne Lewis-15
Neva Rogers-Teacher Born in '42
Daryl Lussier-58-grandfather.
Michelle Signa-32-friend of grandfather
Jeffery Weiss-16-shooter,
and the injured children that, for their protection their names were not given.

Another tragic event that deserves it's own thread.
I just watched the FBI press release and this is tragic and horrifing news. This was supposedly one of the most secure schools in MN and Jeff armed with a shotgun, .22, and a 40 cal. shot the unarmed gaurd and proceeded to go through the school into a classroom and shot a teacher and students.
Police arrived and shot at Jeff, where he turned back into the classroom and shot himself in the head.